Essential Differences Between Dispensational and Non-dispensational Futurism

[keras]

Of course he was, because at that time the Northern Kingdom still existed!

The Book of Hosea is about the end times, when the true Israelites will come together and live as God always wanted; in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
Proved by how Paul quoted Hosea in Romans 9:24-26

I mean you're the odd one out in believing the Scriptures do not speak of a Rapture to Heaven. There are not many Christians I know who believe the Rapture will not be into the sky.

The idea of a 'rapture to heaven' is pure sci-fi, far more unreal than 'beam me up Scotty'. There is no scripture which say that is what will happen. In fact Jesus Himself says at least six times that such a thing is impossible.

I am not so lonely in my rejection of the rapture. Many other Christians call that theory for what it is: a Satanic lie.
I am ready to face all that must happen and to eventually say: Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

 

[rwb]

So, Israel failed according to your own ideology. So why all the fuss when I said that Amills hold Israel failed, just like dispensationalists? You stated, “the Jews as an ethnic nation called Israel forfeited any and all claims to the kingdom because of unbelief,” which is tantamount to saying “Israel failed.” So how do you live with:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2 ESV)
​

Doesn’t that get under your skin? If you cared about the truth, it should.

As to Galatians 3:28, Jews don’t stop being Jews and women don’t stop being women in Christ. Want to try again?

Israel never stops being Israel when we are speaking of the Israel of God! Not an ethnic people, but all people of faith. Ethnic Israel failed and lost what it sought through unbelief. In Romans Paul specifically says "God has not rejected His people whom HE FOREKNEW. Not that all of Paul's kinsmen, who like him were Jews were foreknown of God. Just as Paul was not cast away by God, neither are any other Jews of faith, foreknown of God cast away.

So, no it doesn't get under my skin because I understand who Paul was speaking of. So when Paul says, "all Israel shall be saved" he is not speaking of an ethnic people, but all people of faith. Remember all Israel that is saved is saved when the last of the Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree. In that manner "all Israel" shall be saved as "the Israel of God". A people of faith, not one ethnic race.

Yes, it's true in Christ we don't stop being what we were created to be. The point Paul makes is about being what we are as Christians and even though we are not Jews that does not prevent us from being in Christ. Because Paul says Irregardless of who or what we are, whether Jew of faith kept under the law, or Gentile of faith without the law we are ALL children of God by faith in Christ.

Galatians 3:21-26 (KJV) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:12 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

And as for Matthew 21:43, your comment epitomizes the Amill narration that “Israel failed” and the Church replaced them as the “nation” (singular) that bears the fruit. The problem is the “church” is not a “nation” (singular) but is made up of people from all nations (plural). And the vineyard represents the people of Israel, not the husbandmen. Just like the olive tree represents Israel. The husbandmen represented the builders that rejected the cornerstone.

Israel as an ethnic people had the Kingdom of God taken from them because they rejected Christ. The Stone (Christ) fell on them causing them to be ground to powder according to the words spoken by Christ.

Matthew 21:43-44 (KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Saying the Church replaced Israel makes ZERO sense. The Church was grafted into the Israel of God, not an ethnic people, but a people of faith. Not as a separate people of faith, but ALL people of faith are called "Israel of God"! So how is the Church replacing Israel? It is not! The Church of old are Jews of faith, kept under the law and the Church after Christ came, are both Jews of faith, and Gentiles of faith who together have become "Israel of God".

Christ, not the Church rejected, and removed ethnic Jews, or Israel in unbelief from the good olive tree, and grafted in Gentiles of faith. Does that mean all people of faith cannot be called the Israel of God? Of course not! It means exactly the opposite! Israel, though once represented by Jews of faith as well as Jews in unbelief, has not ceased to be Israel of God. Israel of old is simply NOW, since the advent of Christ, represented by ALL nations of the earth whose name is no longer Israel but THE ISRAEL OF GOD! Not Israel replaced but Israel of faith that has grown into an innumerable multitude that no man can number from "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." (Rev 7:9)

There is a narrative of what happened at the first advent that doesn’t have all the problems with scripture that Amill does. And that narrative does not sidestep Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30.

Tell me in what time frame do you place fulfillment of prophesy?

 

[claninja]

As I stated previously, I have a thread intended and titled, Christ Came to Punish the Shepherds and Scatter the Sheep, in which I'll be addressing all your queries.

great! Looking forward to see how you would argue a literal fulfillment of zechariah 11:14 through Matthew 10:36, whereby the brother hood was broken between descendants of northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom (judah) at Christ’s 1st advent.

Any eta on this thread?

 

[claninja]

They cannot, however, be actual tribes,

But James called them tribes

James 1:1 To the twelve tribes in the Dispersio

 

[keras]

Identifying the Tribes of Israel:
It is God’s plan that the House of Judah, i.e. the Jews, remain as an identifiable people group to fulfil the tasks assigned to them. In these present days, one task has been to replant and rebuild the Land.

But the 10 Northern tribes, that is, the House of Israel, have been lost to history.
Deuteronomy 32:26 says - I will cause the memory of them to cease among men.

However, the Bible does give us some clues as to who they might be today.

1. Who has received the blessings promised?
2. Where will they eventually come from to return to the Land?

THE BLESSINGS -

• To Abraham: Father of many nations, exceedingly fruitful,
• To Isaac: numberless descendants, Land given to them.
• To Jacob: The richness of the earth. Peoples will serve you. Curses on those who curse you, blessing on those who bless you.
• To the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel): See in Genesis 49.

1 Chronicles 5:1-2 states that the Birthright Blessing is given to Joseph.

In Genesis 48 Jacob blesses Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Both were to become great nations.
Deuteronomy 33:17 The 10,000s of Ephraim and the 1000s of Manasseh will push against the nations, even to the ends of the earth.

Only the British Commonwealth and the United States of America fulfil these prophecies. The other 8 tribes seem to be identified with the European Union nations.
Ref: The Tribes, Yair Davidy.


RETURN AND REJOINING IN THE LAND

There are over forty prophecies telling us of the House of Israel’s return to the Promised Land in the last days, so where they will migrate from gives the clues as to where they are now.

Jeremiah 31:8-10 See, I bring them from a Northern land ... gathered from the far ends of the earth.....a vast company...I am a Father to Israel and Ephraim is My eldest son.

Isaiah 49:12 They are coming, some from far away, some from the North and West and others from the land of Sinim. (Sinim - Hebrew: Southern land, Latin: Australi)
Hosea 11: They will follow the Lord and when He roars His sons will speed out of the West.

So, the main location of the lost ten tribes is in the Northwest and from there, spread around the world. They are now the Christian peoples, Jesus’ mission to save the Lost tribes of Israel did not fail.

 

[RandyPNW]

But James called them tribes

James 1:1 To the twelve tribes in the Dispersio

Yes, they at that time were represented by their product, which was a mass of undifferentiated Hebrews with negligible genealogies. The purpose, obviously, was to show that the Jewish People were the actual descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 tribes emanating from them.

But they were *no longer discernible tribes.* They were only the *end product of those tribes!*

You would never hear James tell the tribe of Reuben to return to his original tribal boundaries. You would never hear James tell them to remain within their tribal society. The fact they descended from the 12 tribes was only of value to James in terms of identifying *where they had come from.* They were authentic Israelites.

 

[RandyPNW]

The Book of Hosea is about the end times, when the true Israelites will come together and live as God always wanted; in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
Proved by how Paul quoted Hosea in Romans 9:24-26

Like so many prophecies in the Prophetic books, the subject matter is, primarily, immediate and local--not distant and eschatological. But God always has the end of a thing in mind, and so includes eschatological statements. This does not mean the entire book is eschatological.

 

[keras]

Like so many prophecies in the Prophetic books, the subject matter is, primarily, immediate and local--not distant and eschatological. But God always has the end of a thing in mind, and so includes eschatological statements. This does not mean the entire book is eschatological.

People who know history and who understand the whole Plan of God for mankind, reject your opinion.
Even the Prophesy about the 2nd Temple destruction, was 40 years later.

The tribe of Ephraim, or a people representing the Ephraim type, are clearly Prophesied to re-inhabit the holy Land, as the leader of the 11 other tribes. Genesis 49:26b
Look forward to that day!

 

[Jerryhuerta]

"Investment" is the word I chose to use because the original 12 tribes had an object to "invest" in, namely the promise of God to create a united Israel. In other words, the object was not "investing" in the endless continuation of 12 tribal territories. Rather, the object was to pursue God's wish and plan to create a single nation.

Your concern about my use of the word "investment" is strange indeed. That's why I mentioned your need to face up to what English words mean, based on how the user wishes to use his terms.

This is not an investment in wealth, but rather, an investment in time and energy in God's Kingdom. The fact you wish to make an issue out of this speaks horribly of your side of the debate, and it is hardly "victorious." You're cheerleading for yourself, or relying on people who may follow you, and not necessarily God. I wouldn't be proud of that!

I have no trouble understanding what descendants are, nor what heredity is. But inheriting genes means nothing without actual recognizable descendants. I mean, you could have great, great, great grandchildren with your genes in them. But unless they carry your name or cultural tradition, the fact they inherit your genes is meaningless.

That's how it is with Israel. Jewish genes may be widespread. But it is meaningless if those genes are not carried by those who remain connected to the cultural traditions of the Jewish People.

I’m laughing at your poor attempt to try and sidestep the scriptures like Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30.

Your attempts to throw enough mud on the wall (opinions) in hopes some sticks do not preclude that God scattered the sheep to live in the nations to send salvation to the Gentiles.

All your nonsense does not preclude that Ephriam is mixed with the Gentiles in support of the scattering according to Hosea 7:8. The Psalms also affirm it.

They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. (Psalms 83:3-4)​

The parable of the Hidden Treasure in Matthew 13:44 is rooted in the scriptures about how God hides his people Israel from you and me but knows exactly who and where they are.

All you promote is baseless theories, and nonsense, while I promote what the scriptures state. Heredity is the issue in Revelation 7, not territorial boundaries or cultural traditions. The issue is a people who are descendants of Reuben, Gad, Naphtali and etc. and obey the commandments of God.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Israel never stops being Israel when we are speaking of the Israel of God! Not an ethnic people, but all people of faith. Ethnic Israel failed and lost what it sought through unbelief. In Romans Paul specifically says "God has not rejected His people whom HE FOREKNEW. Not that all of Paul's kinsmen, who like him were Jews were foreknown of God. Just as Paul was not cast away by God, neither are any other Jews of faith, foreknown of God cast away.

So, no it doesn't get under my skin because I understand who Paul was speaking of. So when Paul says, "all Israel shall be saved" he is not speaking of an ethnic people, but all people of faith. Remember all Israel that is saved is saved when the last of the Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree. In that manner "all Israel" shall be saved as "the Israel of God". A people of faith, not one ethnic race.

Yes, it's true in Christ we don't stop being what we were created to be. The point Paul makes is about being what we are as Christians and even though we are not Jews that does not prevent us from being in Christ. Because Paul says Irregardless of who or what we are, whether Jew of faith kept under the law, or Gentile of faith without the law we are ALL children of God by faith in Christ.

Galatians 3:21-26 (KJV) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:12 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



Israel as an ethnic people had the Kingdom of God taken from them because they rejected Christ. The Stone (Christ) fell on them causing them to be ground to powder according to the words spoken by Christ.

Matthew 21:43-44 (KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Saying the Church replaced Israel makes ZERO sense. The Church was grafted into the Israel of God, not an ethnic people, but a people of faith. Not as a separate people of faith, but ALL people of faith are called "Israel of God"! So how is the Church replacing Israel? It is not! The Church of old are Jews of faith, kept under the law and the Church after Christ came, are both Jews of faith, and Gentiles of faith who together have become "Israel of God".

Christ, not the Church rejected, and removed ethnic Jews, or Israel in unbelief from the good olive tree, and grafted in Gentiles of faith. Does that mean all people of faith cannot be called the Israel of God? Of course not! It means exactly the opposite! Israel, though once represented by Jews of faith as well as Jews in unbelief, has not ceased to be Israel of God. Israel of old is simply NOW, since the advent of Christ, represented by ALL nations of the earth whose name is no longer Israel but THE ISRAEL OF GOD! Not Israel replaced but Israel of faith that has grown into an innumerable multitude that no man can number from "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." (Rev 7:9)



Tell me in what time frame do you place fulfillment of prophesy?

You start with an absurd non sequitur. You wrote, “ethnic Israel failed” in contradiction to Paul’s testimony that “God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew” (Romans 11:2). Like I said, Romans 11:1-2 is not Amill’s favorite scripture. The context demands the “people” that Paul is talking about are “ethnic” descendants of Jacob, the chosen of God: many are called few are chosen. (The “many” would be all the ethnic descendants of Jacob, the chosen would be the elect or remnant.)

Amills fail to grasp that God ordained a remnant of ethnic Israel, the true Israel of God, to obtain what Israel sought. Those “people” are “ethnic” descendants of Jacob! What they sought is salvation and the promises of the land, which the scriptures go on to affirm is in the age to come. The Gentiles are adopted to Israel, not the other way around as Amill asserts. What Israel sought is written below.

For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land, and sojourners will join them and will attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the LORD's land as male and female slaves. They will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them. (Isaiah 14:1-2 ESV)​

The olive tree represents ethnic Israel (Jeremiah 11:16), those who are "called." It has to be because the branches can be broken off or cast away. In the end, only the elect branches will remain, alongside the wild shoots that remain, the Gentiles.

As for Galatians 3:28, it doesn’t preclude “ethnic” Israel, which Amills try and bend it into saying.

As for Matthew 21:43, all your meandering rhetoric does not preclude that the vineyard represents “ethnic” Israel and the “husbandmen” represent the builders that reject the cornerstone. It was the “husbandmen” that had the kingdom taken from them, not the vineyard. The kingdom is still secured for the vineyard, the true “ethnic” Israel of God, to which the elect Gentiles are added.

For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel… (Isaiah 5:7 ESV)​

 

[Jerryhuerta]

great! Looking forward to see how you would argue a literal fulfillment of zechariah 11:14 through Matthew 10:36, whereby the brother hood was broken between descendants of northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom (judah) at Christ’s 1st advent.

Any eta on this thread?

I'll be addressing your issues (preterism) at the beginning of the post. Since my time is limited, the eta will have to be when this thread comes to a conclusion.

 

[RandyPNW]

I’m laughing at your poor attempt

Then we aren't having a Christian conversation.

 

[RandyPNW]

People who know history and who understand the whole Plan of God for mankind, reject your opinion.
Even the Prophesy about the 2nd Temple destruction, was 40 years later.

The tribe of Ephraim, or a people representing the Ephraim type, are clearly Prophesied to re-inhabit the holy Land, as the leader of the 11 other tribes. Genesis 49:26b
Look forward to that day!

I acknowledge that you have a different view than me. However, your arguments are not convincing. There are no 12 tribes of Israel, as they were defined. They were never intended to be a lost solution of DNA mixed in with European humanity. They were meant to carry on the Hebrew tradition and be clear descendants of Abraham, both carrying his DNA and carrying his faith and tradition.

What defines Abraham's posterity is very different from "European nations." The promise of a nation coming from him was specifically separated from the promise of many nations sharing in his faith.

Gen 12.1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

Gen 17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Then we aren't having a Christian conversation.

And here I was thinking that occurred when you ridiculed my work by saying it was ludicrous.

 

[RandyPNW]

And here I was thinking that occurred when you ridiculed my work by saying it was ludicrous.

You shouldn't think that. I take seriously anything a brother says. I'm just saying the argument lacks merit, put more politely.

 

[keras]

They were meant to carry on the Hebrew tradition and be clear descendants of Abraham, both carrying his DNA and carrying his faith and tradition.

Hosea 3:4 says the Israelites will live for a long time without the means to continue the Mosaic traditions. Ony the House of Judah continue a semblance of tradition and they have surely lost the faith of Abraham.

What defines Abraham's posterity is very different from "European nations." The promise of a nation coming from him was specifically separated from the promise of many nations sharing in his faith

You contradict yourself by quoting Genesis 17:4
The nation which really does define a people who do not have the faith of Abraham, is the Jewish State of Israel. Their reliance is on the Samson Option; their own strength.
Destruction is decreed for them, Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

 

[rwb]

You start with an absurd non sequitur. You wrote, “ethnic Israel failed” in contradiction to Paul’s testimony that “God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew” (Romans 11:2).

Only those whom God foreknew equates to Israel or Jews of faith, who like Paul are his kinsmen according to faith. First Paul asks a rhetorical question "Has God cast away His people"? Paul basically says of course not because even I am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham and the tribe of Benjamin. Clearly then God has not cast away all of them! Paul proves this in greater depth when he says God has reserved 7000 from Israel of old who have not bowed to Baal, or Jews of faith. Therefore, at the present time God has reserved from Israel a remnant according to election of grace.

When Paul said he was of the seed of Abraham he wasn't limiting the seed to Israel of the flesh, even though it is true Paul was indeed a Jew according to the flesh. But the seed that God foreknew does not speak of the natural seed (many) of Abraham, but of the spiritual Seed (Christ) that came through Abraham. Because you cannot say ethnic Israel in unbelief are of those whom God foreknew. Because to be among those whom God foreknew is to be conformed to the image of Christ. Clearly, unbelieving ethnic Israelites of old were not conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 11:4-5 (KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Like I said, Romans 11:1-2 is not Amill’s favorite scripture. The context demands the “people” that Paul is talking about are “ethnic” descendants of Jacob, the chosen of God: many are called few are chosen. (The “many” would be all the ethnic descendants of Jacob, the chosen would be the elect or remnant.)

Romans 11 is not a problem for Amill or any other doctrinal position when one understands the difference between the Seed (Christ) of Abraham whom God foreknew, and the seed (as many natural descendants) never foreknown of God. According to Paul there is from Israel only 7000 (remnant) from Old Covenant Israel reserved by God, even in his lifetime Paul says there was only a remnant according to the election of grace.

Christ had declared Himself as the promised Messiah that was to come. But those of His own ethnicity who were first to receive the message of salvation through Christ denied and rejected Him. Even the many miracles He performed which should have convinced them He was the promised one to come, they accused Him of doing these miracles under the power of the Devil. So, those who would have been first to enter, did not enter because of unbelief. Having been cast out through unbelief the Gospel is sent unto the Gentiles, who are no longer last to enter the Kingdom, and through the Gentiles proclaiming the Gospel to unbelieving Jews they too can be grafted in again IF they do not remain in unbelief.

Luke 13:23-30 (KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Therefore, many are called by the Gospel message that all people of the earth can now hear. But only those chosen for eternal life will according to grace through faith hear the Gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit and believe to the saving of their soul.

Amills fail to grasp that God ordained a remnant of ethnic Israel, the true Israel of God, to obtain what Israel sought. Those “people” are “ethnic” descendants of Jacob! What they sought is salvation and the promises of the land, which the scriptures go on to affirm is in the age to come. The Gentiles are adopted to Israel, not the other way around as Amill asserts. What Israel sought is written below.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have any real understanding of Amill doctrine at all? When using the term ethnic Israel, we are making a distinction between Israel of faith and Israel in unbelief. All are Jews, but only Jews of faith belong to Israel of God. Ethnic Israel of the seed (many) of Abraham is NOT the true Israel of God. Have you not read what Paul says regarding the ethnic Jews in unbelief?

Romans 9:2-8 (KJV) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

As you can see, it is possible to be of the seed (natural/many) of Abraham, according to the flesh, but in Isaac shall thy seed (Christ) be called. They who are of the flesh (Abraham's natural seeds) are NOT the children of God. For natural/ethnic Israel to be children of the promise (the Seed/Christ) they must also be of the seed (Christ) through/in Isaac. Because Christ came through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore, Jews who profess only to be of the seed (many/ethnic) of Abraham are not the seed (Christ) of promise.

It was a source of great pride for ethnic Jews to profess Abraham as their father. They believed that having Abraham made them secure in God. They thought lineage would save them, and Orthodox Jews in Israel today still believe this.

God made a Covenant of land with Israel of old. The promise was that they would inherit the land of Canaan, the Promised Land eternally IF they remained faithful to God and did not break the Covenant. In His written Word God gives us assurance that all the promises He made with Israel of Old have been fulfilled. Nothing of what God promised them has not been fulfilled. But the people of Israel were not faithful to the Covenant so just as God promised they forfeit the Promised Land.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:11-16 (KJV) Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Salvation has come to the Gentiles through the fall of Israel. Now through the Gentiles and Jewish Christians, ethnic Israel or Jews in unbelief can still be saved by grace through faith if they do not remain in unbelief when they hear the Gospel and believe Christ. There is no more a distinction between Jews and Gentiles for in Christ there are only those who are of faith Christians, and those who remain in unbelief the lost.

 

[claninja]

The fact they descended from the 12 tribes was only of value to James in terms of identifying *where they had come from.* They were authentic Israelites.

correct, that was my point. James labeled those authentic biological Israelites from the 12 tribes as the “first fruits” to God. Thus, the symbolism of the 144,000 first fruits of “mankind” from the tribes of Israel, as found in revelation, should be understood as James’ audience: first century biological Israelites from the 12 tribes, who were the first to be redeemed by God through Christ. (Jew first then gentile).

 

[claninja]

I'll be addressing your issues (preterism) at the beginning of the post. Since my time is limited, the eta will have to be when this thread comes to a conclusion.

while i do understand, I am disappointed, as this thread seems to keep going. Looks like I’ll be waiting awhile…..

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Only those whom God foreknew equates to Israel or Jews of faith, who like Paul are his kinsmen according to faith. First Paul asks a rhetorical question "Has God cast away His people"? Paul basically says of course not because even I am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham and the tribe of Benjamin. Clearly then God has not cast away all of them! Paul proves this in greater depth when he says God has reserved 7000 from Israel of old who have not bowed to Baal, or Jews of faith. Therefore, at the present time God has reserved from Israel a remnant according to election of grace.

When Paul said he was of the seed of Abraham he wasn't limiting the seed to Israel of the flesh, even though it is true Paul was indeed a Jew according to the flesh. But the seed that God foreknew does not speak of the natural seed (many) of Abraham, but of the spiritual Seed (Christ) that came through Abraham. Because you cannot say ethnic Israel in unbelief are of those whom God foreknew. Because to be among those whom God foreknew is to be conformed to the image of Christ. Clearly, unbelieving ethnic Israelites of old were not conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 11:4-5 (KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Romans 11 is not a problem for Amill or any other doctrinal position when one understands the difference between the Seed (Christ) of Abraham whom God foreknew, and the seed (as many natural descendants) never foreknown of God. According to Paul there is from Israel only 7000 (remnant) from Old Covenant Israel reserved by God, even in his lifetime Paul says there was only a remnant according to the election of grace.

Christ had declared Himself as the promised Messiah that was to come. But those of His own ethnicity who were first to receive the message of salvation through Christ denied and rejected Him. Even the many miracles He performed which should have convinced them He was the promised one to come, they accused Him of doing these miracles under the power of the Devil. So, those who would have been first to enter, did not enter because of unbelief. Having been cast out through unbelief the Gospel is sent unto the Gentiles, who are no longer last to enter the Kingdom, and through the Gentiles proclaiming the Gospel to unbelieving Jews they too can be grafted in again IF they do not remain in unbelief.

Luke 13:23-30 (KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Therefore, many are called by the Gospel message that all people of the earth can now hear. But only those chosen for eternal life will according to grace through faith hear the Gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit and believe to the saving of their soul.



I'm beginning to wonder if you have any real understanding of Amill doctrine at all? When using the term ethnic Israel, we are making a distinction between Israel of faith and Israel in unbelief. All are Jews, but only Jews of faith belong to Israel of God. Ethnic Israel of the seed (many) of Abraham is NOT the true Israel of God. Have you not read what Paul says regarding the ethnic Jews in unbelief?

Romans 9:2-8 (KJV) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

As you can see, it is possible to be of the seed (natural/many) of Abraham, according to the flesh, but in Isaac shall thy seed (Christ) be called. They who are of the flesh (Abraham's natural seeds) are NOT the children of God. For natural/ethnic Israel to be children of the promise (the Seed/Christ) they must also be of the seed (Christ) through/in Isaac. Because Christ came through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore, Jews who profess only to be of the seed (many/ethnic) of Abraham are not the seed (Christ) of promise.

It was a source of great pride for ethnic Jews to profess Abraham as their father. They believed that having Abraham made them secure in God. They thought lineage would save them, and Orthodox Jews in Israel today still believe this.

God made a Covenant of land with Israel of old. The promise was that they would inherit the land of Canaan, the Promised Land eternally IF they remained faithful to God and did not break the Covenant. In His written Word God gives us assurance that all the promises He made with Israel of Old have been fulfilled. Nothing of what God promised them has not been fulfilled. But the people of Israel were not faithful to the Covenant so just as God promised they forfeit the Promised Land.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:11-16 (KJV) Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Salvation has come to the Gentiles through the fall of Israel. Now through the Gentiles and Jewish Christians, ethnic Israel or Jews in unbelief can still be saved by grace through faith if they do not remain in unbelief when they hear the Gospel and believe Christ. There is no more a distinction between Jews and Gentiles for in Christ there are only those who are of faith Christians, and those who remain in unbelief the lost.

I don’t agree with anachronisms. You’re taking a New Covenant perception into the Old Testament period. The spiritual seed in the OT times was overwhelmingly ethnic in nature. Need I say what ethnicity?

You said:
“the seed (as many natural descendants) never foreknown of God.”
I guess you’re trying to link Galatian 3:16 with Romans 11:1-2.
The problem still persists, you’re taking a New Covenant perception into the Old Testament period. The spiritual seed in the OT times was predominately ethnic in nature. Need I say what ethnicity?

So, what you’re attempting to do is to make ethnicity evil. How gnostic of you. That God never worked through the descendants of Abraham all the way up to Christ’s first advent!

As I’ve already stated, the Church is the vehicle to restore Jacob and be a light unto the Gentiles: Zechariah 13:7, 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7, Hosea 2:14-23, and Matthew 13:24-30.