Essential Differences Between Dispensational and Non-dispensational Futurism

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The goals of this post are to relate the differences between non-dispensational futurism and dispensational futurism, and why neither can be justified by the Bible. In showing those differences and their deficiencies historicism is confirmed as the only eschatological model that avoids such pitfalls.

First, it must be noted that both models agree on premillennialism and eschatological futurism but differ mainly on their views of the Church and Israel.

A major difference between historic and dispensational premillennialism is the view of the church in relation to Israel. Historics do not see so sharp a distinction between Israel and the church as the dispensationalists do, but instead view believers of all ages as part of one group, now revealed as the body of Christ. Thus, historic premillennialists see no issue with the church going through the Great Tribulation, and they do not need a separate pre-tribulational rapture of some believers as the dispensational system requires.[1]​

According to classic pretribulation premillennialist Dr. Charles Ryrie, the essentials (the sine qua non) of dispensationalism commence with keeping Israel and the church distinct.[2] Non-dispensational futurists hold no such “distinction” and this agrees with their post-tribulation premillennialism. George Eldon Ladd was a non-dispensational futurist (also called historic premillennialism as the Wikipedia article conveys above) because he held no such distinction between the Church and Israel. In Ladd’s book, A Commentary on the Revelation of John, he commented on the twelve tribes in Revelation 7,

John intends to say that the twelve tribes of Israel are not really literal Israel, but the true, spiritual Israel–the church.[3]​

In continuity, he also commented upon the woman in Revelation 12,

The central feature of this heavenly woman is that she is the mother of the Messiah… Some commentators think she represents Mary… others Israel… It is true that Isaiah 66:7 pictures Zion as in travel to give birth to the new redeemed Israel… but this heavenly woman is mother of both of Messiah and of the actual church on earth… Therefore, it is easier to understand the woman in a somewhat broader sense as the ideal Zion, the heavenly representative of the people of God…​

Paul gives us the clue to the meaning of the heavenly woman when he speaks of the Jerusalem which is above, who is the mother of the people of God on earth (Gal. 4:26). She was the mother of the true Israel in the Old Testament.[4]​

As Christ testifies in Matthew 12:50, metaphorically speaking, his mother represented those who fulfill “the will of my Father which is in heaven.” In Galatian 4 Paul refers to those doing God’s will as the Jerusalem which is above, as opposed to “the children of the flesh,” who were in bondage. No doubt Paul, as an apostle to the Gentiles, supports the Church as heavenly Jerusalem, which is also affirmed in Hebrews 12:21-24.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrew 12:22-24)​

Ladd is recognized as a non-dispensational futurist but he failed to recognize that the woman in travel in Isaiah 66 represents the Church, in contradiction to dispensationalism’s assertions that the Church was not prophesied in the Old Testament. Classic dispensationalist Thomas Ice expresses this notion as another sine qua non of dispensationalism.

Apart from a few exceptions, the church age is not a time of prophetic fulfillment. Instead, prophecy will be fulfilled after the rapture, in relation to God’ s dealing with the nation of Israel in the seven-year tribulation… signs relating to Israel are not being fulfilled in our day. Instead, what God is doing prophetically in our day is preparing the world or ” stage-setting” for the time when He will begin His plan relating to Israel which will then involve the fulfillment of signs and times.[5]​

This distinction struggles against the Old Testament evidence that the term Ekklēsia (translated church or congregation) is not a New Testament construct. In the Septuagint Deuteronomy 23:1 and 31:30 uses the same word we see in the NT. The concept of a covenantal assembly was well understood. Their covenantal rituals upheld boundaries and ceremonial washings to promote righteousness and purity in representing the chosen elect remnant. It is this distinction that Paul conveys in his thesis in Romans 9: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”

Isaiah 66:7 identifies Zion as the true Israel but the context cannot be interpreted a precipitous event at the second advent, which is what Ice holds in his comment that prophetic fulfillment undergoes a break in this age and resumes at its end (along with the unwarranted protraction of the seventieth week). John connects the woman of heaven in chapter 12 with the woman in Isaiah 66:7 as a first advent phenomenon. In types and cryptic language, the Church is identified as the true Israel of God, the vehicle in this age by which God restores Israel by redeeming them and then sowing them in the world before the precipitous event when he gathers them and restores them to their land. This change to centrifugal worship was anticipated by Christ in John 4:21. This calling and sowing is illustrated by Christ in Matthew 13:24-30 in the parable of the wheat and the tares, which is taken from Zechariah 10.

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:7-9)​

The text maintains God hisses for Ephraim, the northern “nation” of Israel, gathers and redeems them prior to scattering them to the nations where they raise families and follow Him again. This is precisely what is illustrated in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares; it is the source of the parable, as well as Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23. It is also illustrated in the parable of the Wedding Feast. Both testaments affirm the gathering at the consummation of the Davidic kingdom is a second advent phenomenon, while the first advent is affirmed as the scattering of the sheep in the Great Commission.

Futurism and preterism assert that God offered the Davidic kingdom to the shepherds or tenants appointed to reject the cornerstone (Matthew 21:33-44). But all the major and some minor prophets foresaw that the Messiah would come and punish the shepherds and as a result, the sheep would scatter (Ezekiel 34:2; Zechariah 13:7). The former holds Christ came to establish his kingdom but repented, which violates that God is not a man, that he should repent (1 Samuel 15:29). What the major prophets saw was the history of the early Church, and the Great Commission.

The dispensationalist and preterist perception that God offered the Davidic kingdom at the first advent also has that kingdom contingent upon the “children of the flesh” in violation of Romans 9:6, 16. It is an open-theist perception. Ephraim is the “nation” that bears the fruit of the vineyard in Matthew 21:43. The prophets foretold the rejection of the stone would result in the scattering of Ephriam as a blessing to nations. Zechariah 13:7 and Matthew 13:24-30 affirm this scattering as a first advent phenomenon. It is the Great Commission. Christ’s parables are rooted in the prophecies about this age, which corresponds with the history of the Church and vindicates historicism.


1–Wikipedia, s.v. Historic premillennialism, Historic premillennialism - Wikipedia
2– Charles Ryrie, The Essentials of Dispensationalism, The Essentials of Dispensationalism – Israel My Glory
3– George Eldon Ladd, A Commentary on the Revelation of John, Eerdmans Pub., 1972, 115
4–Ibid. 167
5– Thomas Ice, Signs of the Times and Prophetic Fulfillment, Signs of the Times and Prophetic Fulfillment :: by Thomas Ice
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveM

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi the method of coming to the futurist position is based on the literal interpretation of the texts. Now the preterits allegories are obvious and so that division is taken by both types of dispensationalist. Now the post seems to support the idea of Spiritual Israel being the only Israel to deal with. This is not what I read in my Bible. I agree that there really is a spiritual Israel of those already assured of the kingdom through faith. But the before and after picture for the house of Jacob and the prophecies, oaths, promises and covenants all tell a literal before and after picture for the literal Jews gathered back to the mountains of Israel which had long been desolate. The 2nd coming in Zech has the LORD coming and becoming king over all the earth on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun. The LORD slays the enemies and the Mt of Olives will split in two and a new river and valleys are formed. This river flows year round and in two directions with one of them east. This eastward flow would take you to the Dead Sea which in Eze 47 says will be healed and a prosperous fishing village and then the 12 tribes receive their allotted inheritance in the land of Canaan within the known boundaries of Israel. The prophecy in Luke 1 says this
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
In Zech 14 this deliverance is happening and the millennium will be amazing. There are hundreds of prophecies that show this same before and after picture but lets note Dan 9 and the scope of these 6 objectives is for Daniels people and the Holy city Jerusalem.
“Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Now futurist see this 70th week as future and the scope of what is borough in in for Jews and Jerusalem. This is the clear context of the passage. All of this is achieved at the 2nd coming and onset of the kingdom age. The kingdom age is not speaking of the kingdom of God regarding salvation but Jesus taking the throne of David.
 
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi the method of coming to the futurist position is based on the literal interpretation of the texts. Now the preterits allegories are obvious and so that division is taken by both types of dispensationalist. Now the post seems to support the idea of Spiritual Israel being the only Israel to deal with. This is not what I read in my Bible. I agree that there really is a spiritual Israel of those already assured of the kingdom through faith. But the before and after picture for the house of Jacob and the prophecies, oaths, promises and covenants all tell a literal before and after picture for the literal Jews gathered back to the mountains of Israel which had long been desolate. The 2nd coming in Zech has the LORD coming and becoming king over all the earth on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun. The LORD slays the enemies and the Mt of Olives will split in two and a new river and valleys are formed. This river flows year round and in two directions with one of them east. This eastward flow would take you to the Dead Sea which in Eze 47 says will be healed and a prosperous fishing village and then the 12 tribes receive their allotted inheritance in the land of Canaan within the known boundaries of Israel. The prophecy in Luke 1 says this
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
In Zech 14 this deliverance is happening and the millennium will be amazing. There are hundreds of prophecies that show this same before and after picture but lets note Dan 9 and the scope of these 6 objectives is for Daniels people and the Holy city Jerusalem.
“Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Now futurist see this 70th week as future and the scope of what is borough in in for Jews and Jerusalem. This is the clear context of the passage. All of this is achieved at the 2nd coming and onset of the kingdom age. The kingdom age is not speaking of the kingdom of God regarding salvation but Jesus taking the throne of David.

The futurist position IS NOT based on the literal interpretation of the scripture.

The literal interpretation has Christ come to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23). Christ did not come to establish the Davidic kingdom.

There is no provision for the sowing and redemption of Israel in the wilderness in the futurist eschatological rendition.

In the literal interpretation, the Church is the vehicle to redeem Israel in the wilderness starting with the first advent.

Historicism maintains the literal interpretation which corresponds with the history of the Church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,501
2,336
43
Helena
✟207,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
For me the defining scripture with regards of the relationship between Israel and the Church, is Romans 11.

In essence, the Church does not replace Israel, the Church was grafted in, branches of Israel that were in unbelief were broken off, and Paul says that eventually God will graft them back in.

People who see the Church as replacing Israel, don't understand Romans 11, and neither do those that teach a totally separate Church from Israel. Paul taught a unified destiny, gentiles as co-heirs, and future plans for at least a remnant of Israel to be grafted back in.
 
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The futurist position IS NOT based on the literal interpretation of the scripture.

The literal interpretation has Christ come to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23). Christ did not come to establish the Davidic kingdom.

There is no provision for the sowing and redemption of Israel in the wilderness in the futurist eschatological rendition.

In the literal interpretation, the Church is the vehicle to redeem Israel in the wilderness starting at the first advent.


You have made your conclusions and we disagree as if you look at all the passages that show the kingdom coming and the same transition I pointed out in Luke is occurring. So you do not think that Zech 14 is future and that the Mount of Olives will split in two forming a new river? Dan 7 has the pompous one persecuting for the same amount of time as the beast in Rev and both of them are given two the flame when the LORD comes. This is when the angels proclaim that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. \

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

the day of vengeance of our God is described Isaiah 61 and this is a much different day than the day that Israel was judged for not know ing the day of their visitation.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

This is the end of the tribulation and onset of the millennium. The distinction between Jews and Gentiles is still made but now the Jews are believers and as Zech 14 says in that day they will say the LORD is one and Jesus Christ is both now King and LORD. Hosea says in the place where it was said you are not my people they shall be called sons of the living God. The is Jezreel and that is another name for the valley of Megiddo. Ezekiel gives many promises to those brought back to the mountains of Israel that had long been desolate and the return of David is promised in Hosea 3 Eze 36 Jeremiah 30 and they are all latter day prophecies dealing with the time of Jacob's trouble which he is promised to be saved out of it.
 
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For me the defining scripture with regards of the relationship between Israel and the Church, is Romans 11.

In essence, the Church does not replace Israel, the Church was grafted in, branches of Israel that were in unbelief were broken off, and Paul says that eventually God will graft them back in.

People who see the Church as replacing Israel, don't understand Romans 11, and neither do those that teach a totally separate Church from Israel. Paul taught a unified destiny, gentiles as co-heirs, and future plans for at least a remnant of Israel to be grafted back in.

Correct, the Church is the vehicle to restore Israel and bring in the Gentiles. It was ordained by God and revealed in the cryptic language of the Old Testament prophets. The tree in Romans 11 remains a symbol of Israel as the vineyard in Matthew 21:43 continues to bring forth the fruit that represents the elect of Israel to whom the Gentiles are added. The nation that is given the stewardship of the vineyard is Ephriam, which is vindicated by the Old Testament prophets.

The literal interpretation has Christ come to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23). The sheep that the Father has given Christ cannot be taken away. Read Ezekiel 34. There is no interruption in prophecy in this age. The prophecy that God would punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep represents this age, which destroys the notions of pretribulation dispensationalism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have made your conclusions and we disagree as if you look at all the passages that show the kingdom coming and the same transition I pointed out in Luke is occurring. So you do not think that Zech 14 is future and that the Mount of Olives will split in two forming a new river? Dan 7 has the pompous one persecuting for the same amount of time as the beast in Rev and both of them are given two the flame when the LORD comes. This is when the angels proclaim that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. \

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

the day of vengeance of our God is described Isaiah 61 and this is a much different day than the day that Israel was judged for not know ing the day of their visitation.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

This is the end of the tribulation and onset of the millennium. The distinction between Jews and Gentiles is still made but now the Jews are believers and as Zech 14 says in that day they will say the LORD is one and Jesus Christ is both now King and LORD. Hosea says in the place where it was said you are not my people they shall be called sons of the living God. The is Jezreel and that is another name for the valley of Megiddo. Ezekiel gives many promises to those brought back to the mountains of Israel that had long been desolate and the return of David is promised in Hosea 3 Eze 36 Jeremiah 30 and they are all latter day prophecies dealing with the time of Jacob's trouble which he is promised to be saved out of it.

You’re jousting with windmills. My position is that Zechariah 14 is a second advent phenomenon when Israel is gathered. We can’t have them gathered and sown at the same time, though; that is what escapes you. The sowing and the redemption of the elect of Israel, the good seed, were prophesied as a first advent phenomenon, which eludes dispensational and non-dispensational futurism, as well as preterism.

Futurists do not hold a literal view of the scriptures.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't think so the stone rejected by the builders was the chief corner stone. The time of the gentiles and fullness of the gentiles as well show that this all was anticipated. Jer 31 shows it too as the new covenant was for Israel and Judah and they did not enter into by and large. The verse immediately after this promised new covenant are very telling since Jesus noted missing the day of their visitation was bringing destruction on the house of Israel and that the temple too would be destroyed. Daniel predicts the same outcome of the messiah being cut off and then the city and sanctuary being destroyed by the people of a prince who is still to come who will put an end to the sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.
The verses in Jeremiah 31 God notes Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes and that He will not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now the last part of chapter 31 follows too which Jerusalem needing to be rebuilt at time when the dead bodies are filling the valleys and then it will be holy and never thrown down again. Eze 36 shows the people are gathered to the mountains prior to the promises being fulfilled. The gathering at the end of the tribulation may be for those who indeed flee when they see the abomination of desolation set up. This has to happen in a temple and when the events of the tribulation occur many will be outside of Israel and need to be gathered back. The 70 weeks are for Daniels people and the holy city so this is the focal point of what is going on even though it it is a global tribulation. The end the LORD is king over all the earth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟799,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hi the method of coming to the futurist position is based on the literal interpretation of the texts.

Excepting of course the over 100 texts that literally cement the timing to the 1st century. Those must be allegorized and spiritualized away by the futurist into meaningless Arglebargle in order to maintain the futurist position.
 
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi the scope of the language is not limited to Jerusalem in 70 AD and the day of vengeance of our God Israel is saved not destroyed. In Zech 14 which shows the kingdom coming just like Dan 2 as a stone cut without hands descending and then destroying and leaving no trace of mans rule but this kingdom cover the earth and has no end. That river in ZEch 14 is no allegory as it is promised to heal the Dead Sea in Eze 47 at that same time the 12 tribes receive the land promised to Abraham by tribe. The Catholic view is going to be proven wrong as we watch right now the very specifics that the literalist futurist anticipate coming into focus. The cashless system to buy and sell will be global and require a mark. The famines and inflation will be global and reach Rev 6 proportions as the same time the greatest reset of the nations which is a real plan is put in place. The reign of the LORD will be unlike anything we have seen the last 2000 years. After armageddon 1000 years of kingdom age then the final rebellion is allowed when Satan is loosed. What evidence have you that Satan has been bound since 70AD and everlasting righteousness has been brought in? Christ is to rule with a rod of iron and for 2000 years nothing has changed other than the new covenant being established. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world at a time if Jesus would bow to him and there is no evidence that this authority has been taken back. It is taken back at the 2nd coming and never relinquished.
 
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think so the stone rejected by the builders was the chief corner stone. The time of the gentiles and fullness of the gentiles as well show that this all was anticipated. Jer 31 shows it too as the new covenant was for Israel and Judah and they did not enter into by and large. The verse immediately after this promised new covenant are very telling since Jesus noted missing the day of their visitation was bringing destruction on the house of Israel and that the temple too would be destroyed. Daniel predicts the same outcome of the messiah being cut off and then the city and sanctuary being destroyed by the people of a prince who is still to come who will put an end to the sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.
The verses in Jeremiah 31 God notes Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes and that He will not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now the last part of chapter 31 follows too which Jerusalem needing to be rebuilt at time when the dead bodies are filling the valleys and then it will be holy and never thrown down again. Eze 36 shows the people are gathered to the mountains prior to the promises being fulfilled. The gathering at the end of the tribulation may be for those who indeed flee when they see the abomination of desolation set up. This has to happen in a temple and when the events of the tribulation occur many will be outside of Israel and need to be gathered back. The 70 weeks are for Daniels people and the holy city so this is the focal point of what is going on even though it it is a global tribulation. The end the LORD is king over all the earth.

You are wrong about the stone the builders rejected.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. (Psalm 118:22)​

As to your assertions about the time or fulness of the Gentiles in connection with the New Covenant, there is no doubt that the covenant of Jeremiah 31 was inaugurated by Christ at the first advent according to Hebrews.

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Hebrew 10:12-18)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrew 12:22-24)​

Dispensationalism has vacillated all over the place about the New Covenant; which form of vacillation are you talking about? As to how it ties into the fullness of the Gentiles and the seventieth week, Hebrews indicates that it was Christ who made the covenant with “them after those days” that put an end to the sin offerings and oblations when he “sat down on the right hand of God.” The seventieth week was fulfilled at the first advent.

There is never any promise that the phrase “all Israel shall be saved” in Romans 11:26 means a universal sense, after Paul just stated, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Romans 9:6). So, what’s your point that “they did not enter into it by and large?” The point is that Christ inaugurated the covenant in Jeremiah 31 and both houses, especially Ephriam, have been entering into it in this age, which the prophecies of Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23 foretold. Dispensationalism has been blinded in seeing that Christ’s parables are rooted in what the prophets saw in this age, which vindicates historicism.

As I said, the futurist position IS NOT based on the literal interpretation of the texts.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DaveM
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,501
2,336
43
Helena
✟207,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Correct, the Church is the vehicle to restore Israel and bring in the Gentiles. It was ordained by God and revealed in the cryptic language of the Old Testament prophets. The tree in Romans 11 remains a symbol of Israel as the vineyard in Matthew 21:43 continues to bring forth the fruit that represents the elect of Israel to whom the Gentiles are added. The nation that is given the stewardship of the vineyard is Ephriam, which is vindicated by the Old Testament prophets.

The literal interpretation has Christ come to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23). The sheep that the Father has given Christ cannot be taken away. Read Ezekiel 34. There is no interruption in prophecy in this age. The prophecy that God would punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep represents this age, which destroys the notions of pretribulation dispensationalism.

Mind you I am a futurist still, but I am not a dispensationalist, nor a pretribulationist. Yes, God punished the shepherds and scattered the sheep, but then also promises to bring them back, Ezekiel 36. He brings them back, and THEN AFTER BRINGING THEM BACK will give them a new heart.
which is.. a yet still future thing. They've been brought back in unbelief, they haven't gotten the new heart and God's spirit in them yet.

That's what we're waiting for, in both Ezekiel 36, and in Romans 11, for the fullness of the gentiles to come in, so that the blindness can be lifted from Israel and they can be born again.

BUT, that does not mean, pretribulation rapture and then Israel goes through "the 7 year tribulation" and then some second class citizens of heaven "tribulation saints" come in... I mean..
Paul says the fullness of the gentiles. I take that to mean whoever would be saved, got saved among the gentiles, because fullness means totality. Like that's it. No more.
 
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mind you I am a futurist still, but I am not a dispensationalist, nor a pretribulationist. Yes, God punished the shepherds and scattered the sheep, but then also promises to bring them back, Ezekiel 36. He brings them back, and THEN AFTER BRINGING THEM BACK will give them a new heart.
which is.. a yet still future thing. They've been brought back in unbelief, they haven't gotten the new heart and God's spirit in them yet.

That's what we're waiting for, in both Ezekiel 36, and in Romans 11, for the fullness of the gentiles to come in, so that the blindness can be lifted from Israel and they can be born again.

BUT, that does not mean, pretribulation rapture and then Israel goes through "the 7 year tribulation" and then some second class citizens of heaven "tribulation saints" come in... I mean..
Paul says the fullness of the gentiles. I take that to mean whoever would be saved, got saved among the gentiles, because fullness means totality. Like that's it. No more.

Yes, without substantive understanding that Ephriam is mixed in the time of the end, no one knows who is a descendant and who’s not.

Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned. Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knoweth it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knoweth not. 7:8-9​

God knows and has been “feeding” his descendants in the wilderness since the first advent according to 1 Peter 1:-12; Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are wrong about the stone the builders rejected.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. (Psalm 118:22)​

As to your assertions about the time or fulness of the Gentiles in connection with the New Covenant, there is no doubt that the covenant of Jeremiah 31 was inaugurated by Christ at the first advent according to Hebrews.

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Hebrew 10:12-18)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrew 12:22-24)​

Dispensationalism has vacillated all over the place about the New Covenant; which form of vacillation are you talking about? As to how it ties into the fullness of the Gentiles and the seventieth week, Hebrews indicates that it was Christ who made the covenant with “them after those days” that put an end to the sin offerings and oblations when he “sat down on the right hand of God.” The seventieth week was fulfilled at the first advent.

There is never any promise that the phrase “all Israel shall be saved” in Romans 11:26 means a universal sense, after Paul just stated, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Romans 9:6). So, what’s your point that “they did not enter into it by and large?” The point is that Christ inaugurated the covenant in Jeremiah 31 and both houses, especially Ephriam, have been entering into it in this age, which the prophecies of Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23 foretold. Dispensationalism has been blinded in seeing that Christ’s parables are rooted in what the prophets saw in this age, which vindicates historicism.

As I said, the futurist position IS NOT based on the literal interpretation of the texts.
Hi friend its funny how my view is a literal view and a futurist view and everything is lined up exactly as derived from that view. In the 1st advent was Jesus riding an allegorical fail of donkey or betrayed for 30 pieces of symbolic silver? That Mt of Olives will split in two went the LORD comes and that river will flow and the Dead Sea will be healed the the LORD will be king over all the earth the nations which are left will come to Jerusalem and worship the king at the feast of tabernacle and if they do not show no rain will come to them. The aspects of a spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel do not annul the covenants prophecies and oaths made to national Israel. We are watching it right now and I see no reason to think otherwise. I know many who hold your view we will see soon how it shakes out.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,501
2,336
43
Helena
✟207,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yes, without substantive understanding that Ephriam is mixed in the time of the end, no one knows who is a descendant and who’s not.

Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned. Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knoweth it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knoweth not. 7:8-9​

God knows and has been “feeding” his descendants in the wilderness since the first advent according to 1 Peter 1:-12; Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23.

All the 10 northern tribes are mixed... but Revelation 7 doesn't identify Ephraim and Dan among those that are the 144k.

That's one of those things that is still really a mystery for me. God's obviously tracked the descendents of Reuben and Gad etc. But none from Ephraim and Dan seem to be mentioned. I don't know why if you're saying that Ephraim still has a part to play.
 
Upvote 0

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi friend its funny how my view is a literal view and a futurist view and everything is lined up exactly as derived from that view. In the 1st advent was Jesus riding an allegorical fail of donkey or betrayed for 30 pieces of symbolic silver? That Mt of Olives will split in two went the LORD comes and that river will flow and the Dead Sea will be healed the the LORD will be king over all the earth the nations which are left will come to Jerusalem and worship the king at the feast of tabernacle and if they do not show no rain will come to them. The aspects of a spiritual kingdom and spiritual Israel do not annul the covenants prophecies and oaths made to national Israel. We are watching it right now and I see no reason to think otherwise. I know many who hold your view we will see soon how it shakes out.

Are you giving up? Most of what you say is anecdotal and without any scriptural warrant. And again, you joust against windmills, I already related that see Zechariah 14 as a second advent phenomenon.

And what spiritual kingdom are you talking about? I do believe I repeat myself; the Davidic Kingdom was prophesied for the second advent, not the first. God’s intent was to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep at the first advent and redeem Israel in the wilderness (Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23).

Christ inaugurated the covenant in Jeremiah 31 and both houses, especially Ephriam, have been entering into it in this age, which the prophecies of Zechariah 10:7-9; Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-28; Ezekiel 34:2, 9-10, 23-26; Isaiah 49:5-7; and Hosea 2:14-23 foretold. Dispensationalism has been blinded in seeing that Christ’s parables are rooted in what the prophets saw in this age, which vindicates historicism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jerryhuerta

Historicist
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2018
1,029
130
Tucson
Visit site
✟224,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Futurists believe in a literal splitting in half of the Mt. of Olives. Do historists ?

Do you believe that there really was a woman in heaven in history? I do believe we see symbolism in prophecy. To what extent there is symbolism in Zechariah 14 we'll find out but it is definitely a second advent phenomenon.
 
Upvote 0