Questions concerning Daniel 7 & 8

Brain Damage · Jan 22, 2006

In chapter 8 Daniel is told by the angel that the ram with two horns are the kings of Media and Persia , yet in chapter 7 even tho there is no interpretation given by the angel , most of us view the bear with 3 ribs in it's mouth as this same empire.

And now for the question , why would God use two completly different animals to represent the same empire ?

I have other questions as well , but I think it's best to work on one at a time.

Just The Facts · Jan 22, 2006

Hi Brain

The problem most have with the Book of Daniel is they take individual chapters and try and make sense of them.

The First thing we must remember is that in daniel 2 Daniel is given THE ENTIRE COURSE OF EVENTS and Kingdoms from his day to the return of Christ.

EVERY OTHER PIECE OF PROPHECY MUST FIT INTO THIS VISSION.

We need to look at the book of Daniel as a whole. The Book of Daniel is about what was going to happen from the Time of the Kings Dream in Daniel 2: to the Time of the 1,000 years of Peace. It is a series of dreams in which Daniel himself becomes ever more horrified and confused. It culminates in Chapter 12 with the Angel telling him to go his way because he would never understand but know your place at the wedding feast is assured.

You see to Daniel in his Time Media Persia was a very powerful Empire that he knew so The Bear of Daniel 7: Or the Second Kingdom to rule the land was no mystery to him.

The Third beast from chapter 7: was a mystery though Daniel wanted to know who this leopard was that had four heads.

Chapter 8: is the Answer to his question but poor Daniel .it seems the answer only served to scare him and mystify him even more. He ends the Chapter with

[27] And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days; then I rose and went about the king's business; but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.

So Now Daniel asks another Question because he still does not understand. He wants to know when Messiah will be Born and what will be the end of Jerusalem's desolations and punishment. as the 70 Years of the prophecy of Jeremiah was almost over. He wanted to know what every Jewish person wanted to know. When would the promise to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob be fulfilled the promise to The house of Judah and the House of Jacob or Joseph.

Jer 33:24: Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26: Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

So Daniel gets the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years or 490 years. This is chapter 9:

Well once again Daniel is just further confused he needs details of this 490 Years until the Promise is fulfilled. We read in Chapter 10 Daniel once again asking for understanding. Praying and fasting for many days. He is still confounded by the visions he has had.

Dan 10: 8: Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

The Answer to Daniel's Question is Chapter 11 and 12 : in Chapter 11: Daniel is given very specific events that span from the time through to the Saints on to Constantine and then on to the Time of the end.

Daniel 11 is the most amazing prophecyIt has been fulfilled to verse 40.with such accuracy it is amazing

Chapter 12 is a continuation of Chapter 11 in which Daniel is told of all the Time frames that would be in play.

1. 1260 years of Satan trampling the saints and the truth speaking against God and Heaven.

2. Undetermined Time of the power of the Holy People.

3. 1290 days

4. 45 Days.

Daniel Still does not get it and is told NO ONE would understand until the last days.

And so ends the book of Daniel.

Big Mouth Nana · Jan 22, 2006

Just The Facts said:
Daniel 11 is the most amazing prophecyIt has been fulfilled to verse 40.with such accuracy it is amazing

How so, and what are the particulars regarding this fulfillment? Vese 40 says this...And at the time of the end the king of the South shall push at {and} attack him, and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries and shall overflow and pass through. Do you think that this was Antiochus Epiphanes?

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 27, 2006

Brain Damage said:
In chapter 8 Daniel is told by the angel that the ram with two horns are the kings of Media and Persia , yet in chapter 7 even tho there is no interpretation given by the angel , most of us view the bear with 3 ribs in it's mouth as this same empire.

And now for the question , why would God use two completly different animals to represent the same empire ?

I have other questions as well , but I think it's best to work on one at a time.

Greetings Brain Damage, a good question.
I’m going to turn over the apple carte by saying this, my dear brother.

The bear does not represent the ancient Medo/Persian empire. The Bible, does not even hint at such a suggestion as you have stated.
It is an impossibility for The lion, BEAR, leopard or fourth beast powers to represent any of the past empires, ‘long gone’ because these last four powers are around TOGETHER at the same time and place, eventually waiting for the great Battle when the stone is cast.
They are all around when God’s judgement is set and Jesus, is found worthy and given authority to set up His kingdom ‘at the time of the end’ and are around when the Saints take back the kingdom from them as part of God’s great army.
So, ‘the time of the end’ is set for these powers within the visions of Daniel 7, 8, 9, 10,11, 12, for that set period at the feet of iron and clay.
I for one, certainly do not view the ‘bear’ or the ‘Ram’ as the Medo/Persian empire.
Daniel, chapter 8. has strict time and geographical location criterion that must be met fully for the vision to be fully filled/fulfilled in EVERY DETAIL within the 2300 ereb/evening/boqer/morning = 6 & a bit years where all time limited events are to be fixed within ‘the time of the end’ representing the 2300 ereb boqer. The tribulation period is for 1335 days, ending at the Seventh trumpet, which also ends the 1290 days of Dan 12: 11.

There are far too many inconsistencies incurred with the historic Greek/Alexander, Medo/Persian battle being considered as being a serious interpretation of Dan 8.
One of many discrepancies with the historic view is it stands against the very time period the angel Gabriel, sets the time of the chezev/vision, which he said was concerned with ‘the time of the end.’
So that’s the first inconsistency with the historic idea. WRONG TIME.

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.
The second is that the ram is standing by the Ulai river modern name Karun, which is in Iran, and Daniel, is watching from the province of Elam.
The battle between the historic Greek and Medo Persians was fought on the Arbella plains, which is over 1000 miles away from the river Ulai.
Inconsistency number 2. WRONG LOCATION.
Inconsistency number 3 WRONG EVENT.
Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Let’s have a look at the term ‘yavan,’ which is the Aramaic name some claim to mean Greek.

3120 Yavan { yaw-vawn’} 3196; TWOT - 855;
AV - Javan 7, Grecia 3, Greece 1; 11
GK - 3430 { ÷w:y:
Javan = “Ionia” or “Greece”
n pr m
1) a son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
n pr loc
2) Greece, Ionia, Ionians
2a) location of descendants of Javan

From ‘THE EVERY DAY Bible Dictionary.’

Grecian. “Gre’cian, The term Grecian, Hellenist, denotes a Jew by birth or religion who spoke Greek. It is used chiefly of foreign Jews and proselytes in contrast with the Hebrews speaking the vernacular Hebrew or Aramaean. Greeks was the TERM USED FOR NON-JEWISH PEOPLE.”
‘THE EVERY DAY Bible Dictionary.’(formerly published as Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary) Copyright 1947 by Holt, Rinehart and Winston, IncCcopyright 1925, 1913 by Holt, Rinehart and Winston1967., Inc.
Copyright 1971by Zondervan Publishing House. Assigned to Zondervan Publishing House, Grand rapids Michigan,

From “THE EVERYDAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.”
“Greeks was a term used for non-Jewish peoples., meaning Gentile nations,” “A Westerner would fit the above description.”
”Bible translators have incorrectly translated the word ‘yavan’ from Aramaic, to represent, ‘Greeks’ yet it refers to the words Gentile nations.”
”The word ‘Grecia,’ translated from ‘yavan’ from Aramaic can mean Westerner.
Credit to “THE EVERYDAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.”
The term Western nations or nation of Westerners, can be used for the word ‘yavan.’
Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

At what time is this going down?
There’s something else that the historic claimants use and it concerns me greatly.
I am speaking of Daniel 9: 23-27 somehow ‘representing 490 years.’

Quote [“The 70 x 7 weeks of years = 490 years.” ]
The above is then meant to be applicable to the following verses? I don’t think so!

Daniel 9: 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and ----- TO REBUILD JERUSALEM ------ unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel speaks of ------‘building Jerusalem.’
Yet the following verses speak of building the ‘Temple of God.’
2 chronicles 36: 23 . Then God stirred the hearts of the priests and Levites and the leaders of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to return to Jerusalem to rebuild ---- the TEMPLE OF THE LORD. ------

Ezra 1: 2. Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an ----HOUSE AT JERUSALEM, ----- which is in Judah.
Ezra 5: 15. The king instructed him to return the utensils to their place in Jerusalem and to………REBUILD THE TEMPLE OF GOD ………..there as it had been before.

The proclamation from Cyrus was to ‘REBUILD THE TEMPLE OF GOD.’ The prophecy of Daniel is different, he said………. ‘TO BUILD JERUSALEM.’……..
These two statements are different.
Daniel’s prophetic statements cannot be used regarding the Cyrus decree in any way shape or form.
Time past theologians wrongly extrapolated ‘70 weeks’ into 490 years’ and placed the visions of Daniel, within a historic starting time based on a premise of what they thought Daniel, was saying, just goes to show that the men living before ‘THE TIME OF THE END,’ a biblical requirement time for men to be living within, enabling them the understanding of Daniel, is proved, ipso facto by there very own deeds.

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

See ya Brain Damage.
PC

Just The Facts · Jan 27, 2006

Hi Nana

I said TO verse 40 not Including verse 40 .............verse 40 is clearly stated as the time of the end.

here is verse 33 to verse 40

Next in the Time line is Jesus and his Disciples notice how these people fall by the flame. Being burnt is a common trait of martyred Christians. Beheading or crucifixion was the capital punishment of Rome no one was burnt but Christians.

33And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame (only Christians Were burned), by captivity and plunder, for some days. 34When they fall, they shall receive a little help. ( the Holy Spirit The helper) And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; (Jesus First Warning on the Mount in Matt 24:False Christians say Yes Jesus is lord) 35and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, (only the Saints get the White Robes)until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.

Here is clearly depicted the Saints "to make them white" and the destruction of Jerusalem. We even have the tie in point to Jesus's prophecy of Matthew 24 for this must take place, but the end is not yet."until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed". This is a clear reference by Jesus through Gabriel to a common point in prophecy. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple 70 AD is not the second coming of Jesus.

It should also be noted that as of 30BC Egypt had fallen to the Romans and the King of the South was no more. The prophecy shows this to be true as it explains that the King of the North will do as he Pleases until the time of wrath is complete. Daniel does not mention the King of the South again until the time of the end. Verse 36 goes on to describe the Roman Emperors from the time of Jesus on through to the final Emperor who will be defeated in Judea by Jesus. These verses clearly put an end to any argument that this is one man(ie: The Anti-Christ)

36"And the king shall do according to his will; he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is determined shall be done. 37He shall give no heed to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women; he shall not give heed to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

If it is one man(ie the Anti Christ) than he must be schizophrenic first he worships himself above all Gods, but then instead of them he worships a God of Fortresses or Forces.

38He shall honour the god of fortresses instead of these a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honour with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.

As we know this prophecy is moving through time at a fast pace, these seemingly confusing verses show the changing religious structure of Rome from 30AD to the second coming of Christ. First the Roman Emperors from Augustus to Constantine declare themselves to be Gods on Earth and demand that they alone are to be worshipped. They put themselves above the Gods of their Fathers(the Roman Gods Juno, Mars ect.) and pay no heed to the God of Women(the Nature or Wica Gods, Issis). Instead they demand that everyone worship them. All the martyrs of the Pagan Persecutions died for refusing to sacrifice, to and for the Emperor. In verse 38 we find ourselves in the period that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 the period between persecutions. With a major change to the Roman Religious system (King of the North) about to take place. We are told that the King of the North will change his God to the God of Fortresses, and that with the help of this new God he will attack and defeat the mightiest of Fortresses (ie: Rome). He will then distribute the land as a prize and greatly honour those who acknowledge his position and belief.

38He shall honour the god of fortresses instead of these a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honour with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god; those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honour. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

While most Christian Scholars just pass right over these verses. I find myself asking, who is this God of Fortresses. I wonder why everyone else doesn't ask the same question. It would seem a vital clue to the whole puzzle. Here we can find out more about the False religious system of the Anti-Christ's Kingdom. It is of the utmost importance to understand who this false God of the Anti-Christ's Kingdom is. While it is apparent that this is a new God to the King of the North, Daniel knows exactly who this false God is, as did all the Israelites, the tribe of Judea and the Tribe of Ephraim.

So Who is this God of Fortresses?

Allow me to introduce you to the God of Fortresses. This statue is from about1800BC from the city of Tyre. This is the False God mentioned in, Hosea, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation. How do we know it is the God of Fortresses? Isaiah tells us who's false God will one day rule the world in Isaiah 23:, he tells us it will be the God of Tyre which is represented by this statue. This God Known as Baal(Father), The Goddess Astarte(Mother) and the half Father half Son God Melqart(Son). We also are told by the Prophets that the Final King of the North is the Anti Christ and he is destroyed by Jesus. Since we know for sure which God rules the Earth at the time of Jesus's arrival, the God of Tyre, as told by Isaiah and Revelation, we know that the Anti-Christ initially worships this final religious system, we know that the Anti-Christ's religion is the God of Tyre. There can be no doubt about the meaning of these verses.

Isaiah 23: talks of the sins of Tyre and how their God described as She, the Prostitute the symbol of a Religious System (women in Rev 17) will sell her trade (false Religion)to the whole Earth. Notice it say she shall commit Fornication this was written in 740BC Tyre fell in 673BC this will be very important to remember later when you look at Revelation 17: and the five Kings who have fallen.

15: And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as a harlot 16: Take a harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. 17: And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

In Revelation 17, we see this Harlot as she sits in total authority many years later. Just as Isaiah prophesied. Notice she now has committed fornication.

1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk."

It was believed that all three Gods where were part of a triune order or Trinity. Their names in the Bible are Baal (Osiris or Nimrod the Father God, God of War and Armies, King of Heaven), Ashtoreth ( Astarte, Ishtar or Isis or Semiramis the Queen of Heaven Goddess of War), and her son Tamuz (Melqart, Son of Light, the Reincarnated Father-Son God, Rider of Clouds, God of Soldiers; see Ezekiel 8:14). Who was murdered on Friday and rose from the dead. The worship of this Trinity God was the Reason God sent ancient Israel into exile in 718BC and Judea in 587BC. It then goes on to explain just how this King will Honour his new God with Gold and Jewels and costly Gifts.

38He shall honour the god of fortresses instead of these a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honour with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He shall deal with the strongest fortress by the help of a foreign god; those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honour. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a prize.

The change in the King of the North(Rome) comes with Constantine who converts to the Christian Faith in 312AD after having a vision where he claimed Jesus told him that if he attacked Rome with the help of this knew God he would win the battle. Over the next few years he becomes sole Emperor and builds massive Churches Filled with Gold an Jewels.The Church declares him to be the greatest man since Christ. Some Catholic Bishops State that he will rule in heaven with Jesus. He elevates the status of Bishops and declares the Bishops to be "God's on Earth" Removes them from the burden of paying Taxes. He makes the Bishops rulers over the Empire by agreeing to do what ever the majority of Bishops pass as Cannons. He gives away literally hundreds of thousand of acres of Imperial land to the Catholic Church.

This new Religion of the Kings of the North (Roman Empire) will last until Christ second coming it will trample the Great Tribulation Saints and set up the Final abomination on the Temple Mount.

Hi countdown.

The belief that Cyrus’s decree was only to build the temple is just not the reality of Scripture the Jews were building the city, Scripture tells us they were.

12: Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations.[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]
Isa:44:28: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: [/FONT]even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built;[FONT=&quot] and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Scripture is clear on this the city was being built.......not only that tens of thousands of Jews returned just where were they living in a destroyed city. The city was being built as scripture clearly states and as necessity dictates.[/FONT][/FONT]

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 28, 2006

Hi Just The Facts.
Capitals used for emphasis only.
Just The Facts.
Quote. ”The belief that Cyrus’s decree was only to build the temple is just not the reality of Scripture the Jews were building the city, Scripture tells us they were.”
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The decree was only concerned with building the house of God, and not Jerusalem.

1st decree by Cyrus, to build the house of God.
Ezra 5: 13. But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus MADE A DECREE TO BUILD THE HOUSE OF GOD.

Ezra 6: 3. In the first year of Cyrus the king the same CYRUS THE KING MADE A DECREE concerning the HOUSE OF GOD at Jerusalem, LET THE HOUSE BE BUILDED, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;
Ezra 6: 1. Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls.
When the records of the decree to build the house of God made by Cyrus, were found Darius, made a second decree supporting the original to build the house of God.
Ezra 6: 7. Let the work of this HOUSE OF GOD ALONE; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews BUILD THIS HOUSE OF GOD in his place.

Ezra 6: 8. Moreover I MAKE A DECREE what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews FOR THE BUILDING OF THIS HOUSE OF GOD: that of the king’s goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered:

There were three kings involved with decrees to build the house of God, and when reading the decrees, it’s obvious that the Medo/Persians, paid for the rebuilding of the house of God out of their own reserves.
Ezra 6: 12. And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I DARIUS HAVE MADE A DECREE; let it be done with speed.

Ezra 6: 14. And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF CYRUS, AND DARIUS, AND ARTAXERXES KING OF PERSIA. 15And THIS HOUSE WAS FINISHED on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

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Just The Facts.
Quote.
“12: Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations.”
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The above verse has nothing to do with the three decrees to build the house of God. The Medo/Persians were concerned that if the Jews, built the city [and it was being built without their permission,] they thought from past history that they would have a rebellious city on their hands.
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Just The Facts
Quote.
“Isa:44:28: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.”
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I agree he said to Jerusalem thou shalt be built and that was prophetic the rebuilding of Jerusalem, started without his permission but approval must have been given but it was not stated at all by the Cyrus decree or by two other decrees that followed, the others were made by Darius, and Artaxerxes, and followed the decree of Cyrus.
Three decrees to BUILD THE HOUSE OF GOD not just one.
Starting the vision of Daniel 9: 25 from any of the three decrees is not supported biblically in fact Dan 9: 25 belongs to’ the time of the end’ and refers to the BUILDING OF JERUSALEM, not the house of God.
When the written time spans of Daniel 9; are left alone in their original wording, and not tampered with the meaning is made clear, exactly as said without a change and as such are an eye opener, however changing words by either adding to them or taking them away is a breach of Rev 22: 18, 19 and is extremely dangerous.
On many of these issues we can agree to differ.

Maranatha
PC.

Just The Facts · Jan 28, 2006

Hi Countdown

Do you really think the Jews were sent Back Just to build the Temple....................There was no need to say build the city. That was a give in.

Allowing the Jews to return and worship their God was the point of the Decree. Temples were the centre of Society not cities.

You cannot have 50,000 people go somewhere and not build a city.

It was NOT just the city they stopped building in Ezra 4: it is the Temple..........the two are interlinked you cannot build the Temple without building the city.

21: Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.22: Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings? 23: Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.24: Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

If the decree to stop building the city meant stop building the Temple then the decree to start building the Temple also meant to start building city. YOU CANNOT build the Temple With out the city.

Now I realise that the effort to make Daniel 9 fit Jesus death REQUIRES that God's words be ignored and a different decree then scripture tells us needs to be used. So people take a decree to RESTART building the City and Temple make it into the Decree of Daniel 9 so as to fit their doctrine.

So what Date was this decree, because those who espouse this doctrine keep changing the date to keep it in line with the now know realities of Jesus birth and death.

The reality is that regardless of which date you use the numbers do not add up. 458BC 454BC it does not matter do the math you do not come out a Jesus' death. Perhaps it is time to change the date of the decree for the fourth time.....I mean that has not been changed in at least 50 years.

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 29, 2006

Just The Facts said:
Hi Countdown

Hi, Just the Facts.
Please note, that capitals are used for emphasis only.

Quote
Do you really think the Jews were sent Back Just to build the Temple....................Their was no need to say build the city. That was a give in.
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I have never said that the Jews were sent Back Just to build the Temple. That in itself was an achievement, it was its purpose that was more important.
As far as building the city goes, I said they started building it without the permission of the Medo/Persians, which the Bible, verifies.
However our discussion was specifically about the decree and that it was concerned with building the house of God, and that Daniel 9: 23 27 points to seventy weeks and a break down of them when certain events are to take place, starting with verse 25, it states the words about the commandment to RESTORE AND BUILD JERUSALEM.
Yet we have 3 Decrees/commandments to build THE HOUSE OF GOD that does not measure up to the requirements of the chezev/visions stipulations.
So what does that say for the application of Daniel 9: 25 26, 27 to three decrees mentioned by Ezra?
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Just The Facts
Quote
Allowing the Jews to return and worship their God was the point of the Decree. Temples were the centre of Society not cities.
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Yes absolutely, that is why the decree was about building the
house of God to the extent that Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes, wrote decrees at different times but in total agreement.
The articles taken by Nebuchadnezzar, which his son Belshazzar abused at his great cost, were rightly returned to the Temple, so that the correct procedures in THE WORSHIP OF GOD. could proceed correctly. That of course is what it was about.
The Medo/Persians supplied the animals needed for sacrificial purposes as you and I know.
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Just The Facts
Quote
You cannot have 50,000 people go somewhere and not build a city.
It was NOT just the city they stopped building in Ezra 4: it is the Temple..........the two are interlinked you cannot build the Temple without building the city.
21: Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.22: Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings? 23: Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.24: Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.
If the decree to stop building the city meant stop building the Temple then the decree to start building the Temple also meant to start building city. YOU CANNOT build the Temple With out the city.
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Dear Brother Just the Facts, You can make building the city a discussion point if you wish, however that does not alter the fact that the three decrees did not mention building the city and that was made clear from scripture. See Ezra 5: 13. 6:1, 3, 7,
In fact as I stated earlier, the Medes/Persians paid for the house of God, to be built Ezra 6: 8. Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes, were all involved with building costs for the house of God, but they did not pay for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which was not mentioned in any of the decrees.
Also as a matter of interest the Medes/Persians were not allowed to build the house of God.
Also a decree stopping the building of the HOUSE OF GOD, does not render too or affect the wording of the decree to RESTORE AND BUILD JERUSALEM. Different decree different purpose.

Building the house of God, was specifically to be located on the mount at the sides of the North, the mountain of His holiness, the mount of the congregation in Jerusalem.
Whether you can or cant build the house of God with or without a city does not change the facts that using 1, 2 or 3, decrees with the words to BUILD THE HOUSE OF GOD and imply that that means Daniels prophetic words TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM are of the same objective is not sound.
Ezra 4: 1 24. Im going to run through so to speak short hand, and I advise anyone, check with your Bibles.
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In Ezra 4: 5: 6: we are told about the ADVERSARIES of Judah and Benjamin who heard that the children of the captivity were building the Temple of the Lord of Israel;
2. They asked Zerubbabel, and chief of fathers. Can we build it with you because we want to seek your God. Of course they were told. You have nothing to do with us in building THE HOUSE OF GOD,

The Jews rightly claimed that it was Cyrus, that COMMANDED them to build it but after so long that decree was forgotten by those in power.
So powerful people of the land stopped them building the house of God, as a consequence of them not being allowed to build the city.

Counsellors frustrated their purposeful efforts to build it, during the days of Cyrus, and Darius. At the beginning of Ahasuerus reign, they wrote to him making accusation about the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
They continued this into the reign of Artaxerxes.
Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and more of their cohorts, wrote to Artaxerxes as well.
Chancellor Rehum and Shimshai the scribe wrote to the king a letter against Jerusalem:
The Dinaites, Apharsathchites, Tarpelites, Apharsites, Archevites, even the Babylonians, along with the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, All nations even those that Asnappar brought over, and settled in the cities of Samaria complained.
They wrote to Artaxerxes, that the Jews were BUILDING JERUSALEM. They did not want the Jews living their or near them because they said that they were rebellious and that the city was bad, and that the Jews have commenced the footings and set up building the walls.
They also said that once they did this they would not pay the taxes/tolls and cause revenue losses for the kings income.

All because they were not allowed to help build the HOUSE OF GOD they TWISTED the argument to that of BUILDING JERUSALEM!
Because the Jews had claimed that it was a Decree from Cyrus, to build the house of God, they suggested to the king that the records of such be found demonstrate why Jerusalem, was destroyed to prove their point that it was a real problem city and would be again if allowed to be built on their side of the river again.
They found the records and yes, insurrection by the Jews, against the kings, was recorded in those records.
They also read that mighty kings of Israel charged them taxes in the past and were fearful of the same thing happening again if that city were to be rebuilt.

So an order was given by king Artaxerxes. to cease all building until another command was given.
When a copy of Artaxerxes letter was read to Rehum, and Shimshai the scribes, along with their companions, they went quickly to Jerusalem, and stopped the Jews, building everything by force, EVEN THE HOUSE OF GOD.

The work stopped until the second year of king Darius.
Haggai the Prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied, about this, so Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, started building THE HOUSE OF GOD at Jerusalem, with the prophets of God, helping them. As this was proceeding at a fast pace, Governor Tatnai, and Shetharboznai, and their companions, got wind of it got down there fast and asked the Jews.
Who was it that commanded you to build this house, and to make up the wall and what are your names and those building here?
God, was with the elders of the Jews, and they kept right on building at a fast pace which panicked the officials.

So Governor Tatnai, and Shetharboznai, and comrades the Apharsachites, wrote to Darius, and complained about the house of God, being built at a fast pace.
The Jews were honest in their answering in that they had admitted that they had offended God, and were carried off by king Nebuchadnezzar, and that he had destroyed the house of God, and now they were going to rebuild it and that it, was built there before, by the great king of Israel, and would be again by them.
They explained that in his first year Cyrus, had made a decree to build the house of God, and that the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, Which Nebuchadnezza, had taken were given back to Sheshbazzar, to take back to the Temple.
So Sheshbazzar, laid the foundations of the house of God, and were building, it but its still was not finished.
So a search was done, the decree records written by Cyrus, were found and so Darius, the king made his decree and building commenced and if you read the rest of the story it is all about the house of God, a determined chosen people led by their Prophets, who were led by their God.

Artaxerxes, was also in support of the house of God, he had been taught by Ezra, in the ways of Temple worship procedures and supported the needs of the house of God, by providing animals and many other necessities .
Just The Facts, Quote.
Now I realise that the effort to make Daniel 9 fit Jesus death REQUIRES that God's words be ignored and a different decree then scripture tells us needs to be used. So people take a decree to RESTART building the City and Temple make it into the Decree of Daniel 9 so as to fit their doctrine.
So what Date was this decree, because those who espouse this doctrine keep changing the date to keep it in line with the now know realities of Jesus birth and death.
The reality is that regardless of which date you use the numbers do not add up. 458BC 454BC it does not matter do the math you do not come out a Jesus' death. Perhaps it is time to change the date of the decree for the fourth time.....I mean that has not been changed in at least 50 years.
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Well Just the Facts, I admire your candidness in what you state. Your last statement is of great interest to me because youve allowed me and others see some of your thoughts on these matters and I appreciate your time doing so.
Now to be critical of myself, it does me no good to espouse anything unless I can come up with clear biblical support for them, answers that should stand strong biblical scrutiny by those reading and participating here. Unless I can show.. say Daniel 7: 8: and 9 for instance, in clear precise terms that fit the statements by Old and New Testament Prophets, without changing the intent or wording in the Bible, then unless I can do that and learn from others like your good self then Im no good to myself or anyone else let alone our dear Lord Jesus in these times.
I will lay out these chapters in quick read time, Daniel 7: can be read in about 5 minutes this way, it sticks within parallels and patterns set by the Bible being outlined to drive home certain points, but not yet I want to see what Brain Damage, decides.
Thank you, Just The Facts, for your
time and I look forward in reading more of your posts along with B M Nannas and I hope those of Brain Damage.

Maranatha.
PC.
By the way. Where are you Brain Damage? HELLO!

Just The Facts · Jan 29, 2006

Hi countdown

I believe your contention that the Jews were building the city without permission is just not in scripture.

The city and the Temple were being Built. Nowhere in the Decrees 1 2 3 does it say DO not build the City. The reality is it would be impossible for this to be done.

The Decree that you use as the Decree of Daniel is not a Decree to start building the city it is a decree to finish building the city. It is the follow up to his decree to STOP building the city. Artaxerxes does not find that they were building the city AGAINST the decrees of Cyrus. In Fact Artaxerxes finds that the Jews did have permission to build the City and temple.

Quote
Starting the vision of Daniel 9: 25 from any of the three decrees is not supported biblically in fact Dan 9: 25 belongs to the time of the end and refers to the BUILDING OF JERUSALEM, not the house of God.
End Quote

Just so I am clear are you saying that Daniel 9:25 has not been fulfilled that all 70 weeks are yet to happen.

Please provide scriptural reference to put this in the Time of the End.

Here is a list of all references to the End Times in the book of Daniel

Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that?

Now you said

Quote
it does me no good to espouse anything unless I can come up with clear biblical support for them,
End Quote

Why, if it is a prophecy for end times, does Daniel not say so, Daniel and Jesus repeatedly say it about other end time prophecies (ie: chapters 8 and 11,12). It would seem that this prophecy does not deal with the end times. To say it does is to add your own meaning and understanding to Gods word.

Countdown I respect your manor of posting. It is soft and honest. I am not soft but my words are never meant to hurt or insult only to wake people up to the obvious. So please take this with the tough Love it is intended with. To build a doctrine based on such things as one decree is the city and another the House is folly. Just as it is folly to say Chapter 9 has anything to do with the End Times. It is the doctrine of men.

Let me ask you one question do you understand why it is 490 years in this prophecy. What is the Reason it was 70 years of desolation when spoken by Jeremiah.

Why where the Jews punished 70 years and then why do we have this further :troubled times of the 490 years . God odes nothing OUTSIDE of the Covenant so what is the biblical explanation of these time frames.

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 31, 2006

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Hi Just The Facts.
Hello there Brain Damage.
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Just the Facts. Quote.
“Hi countdown”
”I believe your contention that the Jews were building the city without permission is just not in scripture.”
===============================================
I thought that you may have been right about the Jews building Jerusalem in the time of Cyrus.
However after further additional study, that idea has been shown not to be the case at all, Sorry Just The Facts, but that is a biblical fact.

My dear Brother, you keep insisting that Jerusalem, was being built during the time of Cyrus, I believe you do this to try and mistakenly legitimise Daniel 9: 25. with the decree of Cyrus.
However you have nothing in Ezra, that remotely suggests that, other than the untruthful Scribes and Governors, of the Medo/Persian empire.
Here is the biblical proof that the Jews were not building the city during the reign of Cyrus.

AFTER TWENTY YEARS INTO THE REIGN OF ARTAXERXES, JERUSALEM WAS REBUILT.

And Jerusalem WAS STILL NOT BUILT so that fact alone puts an end to the idea that they were building the city during ‘the House of God,’ construction period.

Nowhere in the Bible, does it say that Jerusalem was being built during the reign of Cyrus, in fact it states clearly in which year it was rebuilt.
Please read this carefully Just The Facts, because there is a message in it.
Nehemiah 2: 1. And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the TWENTIETH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king.

Nehemiah 2: 17. Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we are in, HOW JERUSALEM lieth WASTE, and the GATES thereof are BURNED with fire: come, and LET US BUILD UP THE WALL OF JERUSALEM, that we be no more a reproach.

They were given the go ahead from Artaxerxes in his twentieth year.

Nehemiah 2: 18. Then I told them of the hand of my God which was good upon me; AS ALSO THE KINGS WORD that he had SPOKEN unto me. And they said, Let us rise up and build. So they strengthened their hands for this good work.
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Just The Facts, Bible quote.
“Isa:44:28: “That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.”
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Was Jerusalem, built during the reign of Cyrus? No! The above verse therefore is a prophetic statement that Cyrus, said to the city prior its rebuilding but the building of Jerusalem, did not commence during his time so the Scribes and Governors were not being truthful. Isaiah’s prophetic words did NOT indicate a starting time.

I still have to say that “The Jews, did not have permission to build the city as far as the decree of Cyrus, was concerned.
The building of Jerusalem, was not in that decree, so that is not the decree that Daniel 9: 25 was referring to or the following decrees. The Cyrus decree does not state the words. “RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM.”
They were building the HOUSE OF GOD written within the 1st year reign of king Cyrus.
The two are separate issues.
Ezra 6: 14. 3 decrees.
So where is the decree to which you can place Daniel 9: 25?
There isn’t one yet so you won’t find it, not until ‘the time of the end.’
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Just the Facts. Quote.
“The city and the Temple were being Built. Nowhere in the Decrees 1 2 3 does it say DO not build the City. The reality is it would be impossible for this to be done.”
=============================================
Sorry to disagree with you, but the Jews were not building the city, even though they were accused of it because twenty years later it was still in ruins.
So the reality is that it was possible to use the Temple, in a ruined city for many years because they had dwellings to live in among the heathens nations.

Nehemiah 7: 4. Now the city was large and great: but the people were few therein, and the HOUSES were NOT BUILDED not.

By this time it took 52 months to finish the wall around the city and the houses were still not built.
=============================================
Just The Facts. Quote.
“The Decree that you use as the Decree of Daniel is not a Decree to start building the city it is a decree to finish building the city.
It is the follow up to his decree to STOP building the city. Artaxerxes does not find that they were building the city AGAINST the decrees of Cyrus. In Fact Artaxerxes finds that the Jews did have permission to build the City and temple.”
==================== =========================
Dear Just The Facts, sorry but they weren’t, building the city.
The problem you have is that you can’t find the right decree because there isn’t one to find yet.
So the historic idea of ‘the seventy weeks of years meaning 490 years’ starting from Cyrus’ decree or any other for that matter, at that time, is rendered a construct.
I need to be blunt and say, without any reflection on your good self because I speak of The 490 years supposedly worked out from Daniel 9: is a wild fanciful unbiblical fictional idea that goes nowhere.
The city was in ruins within the 20 year of the reign of Artaxerxes.
Dear Just the Facts, the word ‘finish’ you mention is not used and it is not an issue now.

The commandment mentioned in Daniel 9: 25 has the words quote. K J V “BUILD Jerusalem.”
The Interlinear Bible
Hebrew.
Greek,
English.
Has Quote. “ REBUILD Jerusalem.”
I don’t see the word ‘FINISH’ that you suggest.
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You also say. quote “In Fact Artaxerxes finds that the Jews did have permission to build the City and temple.” unquote.
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Where did you find that idea? Permission came from king Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2: 18. 20 years later.
If he did find the permission from Cyrus, I would really appreciate you showing me please, that would save me having to read over many seaching hours.
It was within the twenty first year of his reign that they built the gates and wall of the city.

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 31, 2006

Nehemiah 3: 3. But the fish gate did the sons of Hassenaah build, who also laid the beams thereof, and set up the doors thereof, the locks thereof, and the bars thereof.
But the walls were still NOT built 20 YEARS into the REIGN OF ARTAXERXES. so they were not building the walls as they were accused of doing way back in Cyrus’ reign.
Nehemiah 4: 10. And Judah said, The strength of the bearers of burdens is decayed, and there is much rubbish; so that we are NOT ABLE TO BUILD THE WALL”.
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Just the Facts you Quoted me below.
”Starting the vision of Daniel 9: 25 from any of the three decrees is not supported biblically in fact Dan 9: 25 belongs to’ the time of the end’ and refers to the BUILDING OF JERUSALEM, not the house of God.”
End Quote
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Just the Facts. Quote.
Just so I am clear are you saying that Daniel 9:25 has not been fulfilled that all 70 weeks are yet to happen.
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Yes.
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Just the Facts. Quote.
Please provide scriptural reference to put this in the Time of the End.
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I would be more than happy to do that for you Brother Just The Facts. But if it is OK with you I would like to start from Daniel 7 later, after I hear from Brain Damage, because he indicated that he had more questions.
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Just the facts. Quote.
“Here is a list of all references to the End Times in the book of Daniel”
Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9
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Thank you Just The Facts, that was kind of you to do that for me.
There are more statements made that confirm the time of the end. Those you mention are not the only clear indicators, there are lots more things said. But I will leave that until later, I want to start in an orderly way through from Daniel 7.
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Just The Facts. Quote.
“Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that?”
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I can show you a sentence that proves it is for 'the time of the end' but not yet I have to start from Dan 7: to do that
Just The Facts,
Quotes PC.
“Now you said
it does me no good to espouse anything unless I can come up with clear biblical support for them,”
End Quote.
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Just the Facts. Quote.
”Why, if it is a prophecy for end times, does Daniel not say so, Daniel and Jesus repeatedly say it about other end time prophecies (ie: chapters 8 and 11,12). It would seem that this prophecy does not deal with the end times. To say it does is to add your own meaning and understanding to God’s word.”
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Daniel 7: 8: 9: 10: 11: 12: are concerned with 'the time of the end' and I will prove it biblically, maybe you can’t see it Just The Facts, when I spread the lot out and pull all the verses together and geographical places within the Chezev and use Revelation’s time spans and line up the events and characters involved from Geneses onwards. Also look at verse 9 in meticulous detail, to make its time factor click into place at the time of the end. Did you know there was an ‘end of time’ period?
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“Countdown I respect your manor of posting. It is soft and honest. I am not soft but my words are never meant to hurt or insult only to wake people up to the obvious. So please take this with the tough Love it is intended with. To build a doctrine based on such things as one decree is the city and another the House is folly. Just as it is folly to say Chapter 9 has anything to do with the End Times. It is the doctrine of men.”
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Yes I agree it would be ‘folly’ Just The Facts, if that were the case, but it is not, there is a lot more yet to come regarding Daniel’s prophecies. The problem you have now is that the nod was given verbally by Artaxerxes 20 into his reign. So what does that do to the mathematics?
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Just The Facts, Quote.
“Let me ask you one question do you understand why it is 490 years in this prophecy. What is the Reason it was 70 years of desolation when spoken by Jeremiah.”
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The seventy years of captivity prophesied by the writing of Prophet Jeremiah, were being studied by Daniel, who was a young man when lead into captivity, now he was an old man and he knew that the seventy years was about up.
Then Cyrus turned up, bang on time. The reason they were punished was because they did not keep the Lord’s ‘statutes,’ ‘ordinances,’ ‘laws,’ and other offences against God. This prophecy was a great one for Daniel’s time and it ended when stated and that was the end of the matter.
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Just The Facts. Quote.
“Why where the Jews punished 70 years and then why do we have this further :troubled times” of the 490 years . God odes nothing OUTSIDE of the Covenant so what is the biblical explanation of these time frames”
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I’m unable to read or understand what ‘odes’ means.
Would you please rephrase the question?
I am not too sure of your question but if I have a guess at it, are you asking why certain prophetic covenant time spans lap over into longer periods?
Well I will try and answer what I think is your question if it is not the right suggested question then I am most sorry.

As far as covenants are concerned with God, they are conditional
By the responses by the people involved. Have you noticed Just The Facts, that Daniel 9: was praying earnestly for his people that they would be forgiven for some 18 verses. The reason, as you know was that, that was a requirement of Jeremiah’s prophecy being fulfilled. They were to call upon the Lord and He would hear them and Daniel, knew that fact.
Thank you Just The Facts, for your kind words, I think you are a good man and I sense that you love the Lord deeply and I am pleased to be able to speak with you. However I’m not offended when spoken to harshly because I’m more interested in study and counter argument on a rational biblical basis, trying to understand prophecy.

Kindest regards.

PC

Just The Facts · Jan 31, 2006

Hi

odes is Does with the letters mixed up. It was a typo

The Seventy years was 70 years for a reason What was the reason it was seventy years and not 20 years.

Why was it 490 years and not 220 years . This is all done according to the covenant. It is not wily nily.

I am asking if you understand How and Why God assigned these time frames to the Jews punishment.

Prophecy Countdown · Jan 31, 2006

Just The Facts said:
Hi

odes is Does with the letters mixed up. It was a typo

The Seventy years was 70 years for a reason What was the reason it was seventy years and not 20 years.

Why was it 490 years and not 220 years . This is all done according to the covenant. It is not wily nily.

I am asking if you understand How and Why God assigned these time frames to the Jews punishment.

Greetings Just the Facts.
Your first quote.
“Hi
”odes is Does with the letters mixed up. It was a typo”
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‘Ode’ or ‘odes’ means a type of poem and that threw me a bit in what sense you many have used it.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Just The Facts. Quote.
“The Seventy years was 70 years for a reason What was the reason it was seventy years and not 20 years.”
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See Jeremiah chapter 25. Daniel 9: 1 – 20.
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Just the facts. Quote.
“Why was it 490 years and not 220 years . This is all done according to the covenant. It is not wily nily.”
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Why don’t you explain it Just The Facts, first then if I have time
I may reply later.
I do hope that this is nothing to do with the clearly bibliacally disproved idea of the ‘70 X 7 days of years.’
Because if it is to do with that, then that has been dealt with thoroughly. Are you trying to justify that idea after all the biblical evidence put forward against it?
If you can’t or won’t acknowledge the biblical evidence against that idea then that is up to you.
Also I did say that I would wait for Brain Damage, to ask his questions first before proceeding then I would start from Daniel 7.
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Just The Facts. Quote.
I am asking if you understand How and Why God assigned these time frames to the Jews punishment.
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Dear Brother Just The Facts, I have spent many days searching over many Bible chapters on this subject.
Now it is your turn to explain your last question. I have my ideas but I would like you to explain yours so that I know where you are coming from.
Kindest regards.
PC.

Just The Facts · Feb 1, 2006

Hi

I started a new thread on the 490 years.

good4u · Feb 3, 2006

Brain Damage said:
In chapter 8 Daniel is told by the angel that the ram with two horns are the kings of Media and Persia , yet in chapter 7 even tho there is no interpretation given by the angel , most of us view the bear with 3 ribs in it's mouth as this same empire.

And now for the question , why would God use two completly different animals to represent the same empire ?

I have other questions as well , but I think it's best to work on one at a time.

Don't read too much into God using two separate animals to represent the same empire. So what? The meaning is the same.

Simon_Templar · Feb 4, 2006

Alright, first to the OP...

The dream of Nebuchadnezer of the statue with head of gold, chest and arms of silver, loins of brass, legs of iron, toes of mixed clay and iron etc and the dream of daniel of the four beasts that come up out of the stormy water are parallel.
Some people have trouble with this because they think it some how pointless that God would repeat the same information twice, through two seperate visions.
This is, however, a common feature of vision and prophecy in scripture. One could look at it as God establishing a thing in the mouth of two or three witnesses... but it is also more than that. God, when he gives visions about the same events to different people uses it to convery different details and different view points as it were.
After all does anyone think it odd that the bible contains four versions of Jesus life? three of which are almost identical??

In the dream of nebuchadnezer he sees the kingdoms of the future through the eyes of man, from man's perspective. This conveys information to us. It conveys the sense of splendour, achievement and glory that man derives from these great empires and their achievements. What speaks more of the glory and height of human culture than a glorious collosus statue made of precious metals.
In the vision we also see babylon as a head of gold... this speaks to the purity of kingship but also to the over all weakness of their empire. Kings in ancient babylon were supreme in every respect, they were the source of all law and judgement, they were also usually the chief human representative to the gods of the city. Yet the babylonian empires were easily broken because they depended entirely upon the king and if the king was weak the country failed. The strenght of the metal probably also refers to the military strength of the empire.

The chest and arms of silver are medo-persia.. the arms represent the two peoples that together made up the persian empire. The silver describes the rulership again.. it is less pure than gold.. but stronger.. in the persian empire the king was bound by law. Once law was made it could not be broken even by the king but the king answered to no other people. The governmental system was also more robust than that of the babylonians because they had a much more developed beaurocratic system (which again diluted the power of the monarch).

The loins of bronze refers to the macedonian greek empire of alexander. Alexander was a king of macedon but the greek people by this time had been instilled with the ideals of democracy and citizenship. Thus while alexander ruled as a king, he was still forced to give place to the democratic voice of the greek polis. Thus his government was yet more diluted from pure kingship, and yet his military was the strongest the world had yet seen. Nothing and no one could stand before him. The only thing that finaly stopped his conquest was the mutiny of his army.

The legs of iron are a vision of rome. The two legs has often been seen as the later division of the roman empire into east and west. The iron is much less pure as the roman rule was even further diluted from pure kingship. Even during the empire period the emperor ruled only as the trustee of the republic. His position was created from cobbling together the three pillars of authority in the republic.. the imperium (military authority), tribunician (judicial, legislative), and the pontifex maximus (religious authoritY).
As before the roman military was the mightiest force the world had yet seen, the strength of Iron.

The ten toes of clay and iron many hold to be a future "revived" form of the roman empire which has an even further diluted government (like modern governments) and mixed military strength. The ten toes certainly seem analgous to the ten horns prominant in other appocalyptic prophecies in daniel and in revelation.

Now, the vision of the beasts daniel sees is depicting the same empires... but from God's point of view. No longer the glorous statue bespeaking culture, achievement and refinement... they are beasts.
The lion, again the lone monarch, symbol of pure kingship through out history is babylon. The lion represents pure kingship.
The bear is less regal but more fierce and larger. The bear is raised up on one side denoting the dominance of one of the people groups (the persians) over the other (the medes). The three ribs likely denote victims of the bear, possibly Babylon, Egypt, and Asia Minor.

The leopard is Alexander, it denotes the amazing speed with which alexander conquered. The amazing speed with which Alexander conquered the middle east made him a legend looked up to by conqeurers down to our very day. The four heads and four wings denote the four generals of Alexander who fueled his conquest.

Lastly the dragon.. the least pure and most terrible... its legs trampling everything in sight breaking everythign assunder. The ten horns corresponding to the ten toes (horns being symbols of power).

Now, in chapter 8 there is a specific prophecy of the defeat of the medes and the persians, by the greeks. Why is this fortold if the two empires were just fortold in the vision a chapter before??

Do you know that this prophecy played a role in preserving the city of Jerusalem from destruction??
when alexander began his conquests he threatened the cities loyal to the persian empire and demanded that they switch sides and join him. Some did and others didn't. Those who didn't were usualy brutally punished with slaughter when they were conquered.
At this time there was a struggle going on between two families in Jerusalem. there was a family which was unrighteously trying to seize the priesthood for political advantage away from the family that rightly held the high priesthood.

when alexander sent word t Jerusalem to switch sides, the high priest refused because he had made an oath of loyalty to the king persia. The other family vying for power supported alexander and told them they would support him if he installed them after punnishing jerusalem.

Alexander went to Jerusalem with the intention of slaughtering the city for their refusal to betray the persian king. The priests went to prayer and God told them to form a procession outside the city with everyone dressed in white to welcome alexander (an event refered to in greek as "apantesis" important in another prophecy).

When alexander arrived the high priest turned out to greet him in his full priestly garb, as God had directed in a dream. To the utter shock of everyone, rather than slaughtering the entire city Alexander got down from his horse and payed homage to the high priest.
He told his men that before he had started his conquest of asia minor he had had a vision in which a man dressed exactly like the hgh priest had told him to go forth and conquer and that all of persia would be given into his hand.
the priest then took him into the temple and showed him in the book of daniel where he himself was fortold to defeat the persians. As a result alexander spared the city and respected the rights of the priesthood and the jewish faith.

I would like to make some other comments to previous posts.. but I dont have time at the moment

more later

Simon_Templar · Feb 4, 2006

ok, I have a few more minutes now...

First off, on the "decree to rebuild Jerusalem" from daniel's 70 weeks. It is not correct that none of the decrees put forth were to rebuild the city. The decree of Artexerxes Longimanus in 445 BC was specificly to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, not the temple.

There are, in total, at least, four different decrees made by persian kings regarding the temple, and jerusalem.

The first was made by Cyrus the great around 539-537 BC. This decree was to allow the rebuilding of the temple. This decree was part of a program of general religious tolerance by Cyrus. The building was not carried out though and was left unfinished.

The second decree was made by Darius Hystaspes in 520-518 and was a second decree to rebuild the temple. This decree affirmed the previous decree of Cyrus which had been forgotten by this time.
This is also the source of the quoted verse complaining about the "rebelious and troublesom jews rebuilding their temple". The situation was this... Cyrus had authorized the reconstruction of the temple but it had never been finished. The construction had been picked up again and the governors of the neighboring province had cause to be jealous of the jews so they tried to create trouble for them with the king by complaining about them rebuilding the temple. The jews claimed that cyrus had authorized it and Darius found that Cyrus had indeed decreed it. Darius reaffirmed cyrus's previous decree and allowed the jews to finish the construction of the temple

The temple construction was completed in 515 BC

The next decree is made by Artexerxes Longimanus in 459-457 BC AFTER the temple is already completely rebuilt. In this decree Artaxerxes sends the temple implements looted by the babylonians back to the temple so that the proper temple worshpi may resume. He also sends back money to pay for sacrificial animals.

By this point the temple has been completely built, the holy implements have been returned and the temple worship has been completely re-instituted.

the final decree was issued by Artexerxes in 445 BC and was not regarding the temple, but the city of Jerusalem itself. While the temple had been rebuilt the city itself was still in ruins and the local governors has blocked any attempt to rebuild the city fearing that it would become a challenge to their power.
In 445 Artexerxes decreed specificly that the city of Jerusalem should be rebuilt. This event is recorded in Nehemiah chapter 2

Neh. 2:5 "And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. "

Note that Nehemiah says "unto the CITY of my fathers... that I may BUILD IT" there is no mention of the temple here (because that has already been rebuilt and is functioning). This decree deals specificly with the city as Daniel fortold.

So the 445 BC decree fits the bill perfectly for Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.

Now on chapter 11 verse 40... the first portion of this prophecy concerns a long series of conflicts played out between Ptolemaic Egypt and the Selucid empire (both successor states of Alexander's empire). The prophecy is amazing in its detail and is exactly correct.
In verse 21 of the chapter we are introduced to a "vile person" a usurper to took control of the selucid empire through intrigue and flattery. He took to himself the title of Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus was the ancestral name of the Selucus family and Epiphanes means the glorious shining one.. from verse 21-31 describes Antiochus' career as ruler of the selucid empire.

in verse 31 it describes how antiochus poluted the temple and stopped the sacrifice. Historically he erected a statue of zeus and sacrificed a pig on the alter. He also had begun a program of introducing sporting events like the olympic games to the young people of the jews and using those event to corrupt them into pagan worship.

verse 32 describes the Jewish revolt against antiochus lead by the Maccabees which established Judea as an independant kingdom until it was taken into th roman fold under Pompey the Great.

verse 33-35 describe the trials of the jewish people over the intervening times until the end. The book of daniel is given from the unique perspective that it centers on the jewish people and their land. The description they shall fall by flame and sword, by captivity, and by spoil does not so much refer to specific ways of death used, but rather the general fact that they shall be subjected to war, captivity and dispersion until the time of the end. Flame was a common factor of conquest. Cities taken in seige were frequently ravaged by fire. Likewise captivity and spoil.. terms relating uniquely to warfare and conquest rather than specificly execution as in the case of christian persecutions.

The phrase "they shall fall and be helped with little help but many shall cleave to them with flatteries, means basicly that in their trials many people will favor them with words and flatter them but no one will really help them when push comes to shove. This obviously fits the Jews pretty well. The only people that have every really come to their aid have been the americans in the last half century.

verse 35 states that all this is occuring to try the jews and make them pure. A possible, indeed probably understanding is that this is occuring to them because they rejected the messiah and this is God's wake up call, to purify them and to bring them around. It also says that this will continue right up to the time the end.. which is yet to come.

In verse 36 the prophecy actually skips into the future. The historical portion essentially ended with verse 33. 33-35 was spanning a long period of time and 36 begins just before the end of the age. This is actually a pattern mirrored in the Olivet discourse and in revelation as well. A historical section followed by an implied long gap, followed by the final act at the end days.

the great question is who is this willful king.. is he the king of the north? or someone else... many assume he is the king of the north. This, however, is not stated by the prophecy. There are also reasons in the prophecy to identify this willful king as a jew.

We are told he exalts himself above all gods (humanist) he speaks against the God of gods (ie the one true God) He does not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women nor any god because he shall exalt himself above them all... then we are told immediately that "in his estate" he exalts a god of forces (it can be translated fortresses, or forces.. I think it should be forces).

so what does all that mean.

First... God of his fathers, is a distinctly Jewish saying. It refers to the patriarchal relationship of God to the Jewish people.. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob etc.
Secondly, he holds not the desire of women.. this does not mean he is a homosexual. " The desire of women" is a distinctly jewish idiom refering to the coming of messiah.. the desire of women is to bear the messiah. This is saying he holds no regard for the promise of messiah.
thirdly he exalts himself above all gods. This person is a humanist probably of some new age cosmic humanist variety exalting himself as god

Yet he exalts a god of forces??? the distinction here suggests that the "god of forces" is not a traditional or historic supernatural god. It is also notably NOT SAID that he WORSHIPS this god... RATHER he EXALTS and HONORS this god.. with money.

What is being portrayed here is part of the same image that is portrayed in Revelation 13 in the relationship between the two beasts. The willful king is the second beast, known as the false prophet. He is a jew who comes to power in Israel. He leads the people away from the true faith and exalts himself as a god. He also causes the people to worship another god, the first beast of revelation 13 who is a political military power (ie god of forces) It is said of this beast "behold who can make war with the beast" he is the god of forces. This 1st beast is also portrayed in daniel as the prince of the romans in daniel chapter 9 who puts an end to the sacrifice and is responsible for the abomination of desolation. ( a statue of himself placed in the temple).

the willful king is the false prophet of revelation.

in verse 39 it tells how this willful king uses the god of forces to accomplish his will militarily. The false prophet exalts the 1st beast (roman prince) as a god and in turn the prince uses his military might on behalf of the willful king...

A leader in Israel will make an agreement with a european military power. The military power will guarentee israel's aims, such as rebuilding the temple, retaking lost territory etc. In return the Israeli leader, the false prophet will cause the people to exalt the prince and they will declare him a god in the temple.

Then in verse 40 things start to fall apart.. the king of the north and the king of the south (probably arab powers syria and egypt maybe) get fed up with the upstart in Israel and attack. With the help of the beast the false prophet woops up on them.. then he hears disturbing news from the east and he hurries back to Jerusalem to meet a the new threat. This news from the east will be the massive army of the kings of the east fortold in Revelation.

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. "

the location described here is the valley of Armagedon which runs from between the sea of galillee and the mediteranian sea.

Just The Facts · Feb 4, 2006

Hi Simone

The king of the north IS NOT JEWISH.

The Saying the gods of his father is not Jewish the Romans said it all the time.

Quote
What is being portrayed here is part of the same image that is portrayed in Revelation 13 in the relationship between the two beasts. The willful king is the second beast, known as the false prophet. He is a jew who comes to power in Israel.
ENd Quote

That is just a Doctrine of men not supported by scripture.

We have Symbols ........You nor I get to say what they mean . Scripture Tells us what These Symbols mean.

Beast = kingdom
Lamb = Jesus
Dragon = Devil.

SO what SCRIPTURE TELLS US is there will be a Kingdom

That appears to be the kingdom of the Lamb.

But it will speak like the Devil.

The Two Horned Lamb is a false kingdom of God On Earth that rises up in Asia minor. then spreads around the World.

Simon_Templar · Feb 5, 2006

Just The Facts said:
Hi Simone

The king of the north IS NOT JEWISH.

The Saying the gods of his father is not Jewish the Romans said it all the time.

Quote
What is being portrayed here is part of the same image that is portrayed in Revelation 13 in the relationship between the two beasts. The willful king is the second beast, known as the false prophet. He is a jew who comes to power in Israel.
ENd Quote

That is just a Doctrine of men not supported by scripture.

We have Symbols ........You nor I get to say what they mean . Scripture Tells us what These Symbols mean.

Beast = kingdom
Lamb = Jesus
Dragon = Devil.

SO what SCRIPTURE TELLS US is there will be a Kingdom

That appears to be the kingdom of the Lamb.

But it will speak like the Devil.

The Two Horned Lamb is a false kingdom of God On Earth that rises up in Asia minor. then spreads around the World.

First of all, I didn't say the king of the north was jewish.. I said the "willful king" was Jewish. I was making an argument that the willful king is not the king of the north.

Second, I didn't intend to claim that what I was writing was divine inspiration, it is my opinion after having studied the texts in question. So yes it is an interpetation of man (me being a man), it is however based on scripture. I didn't just make it up.

One of the problems that has caused virtually every teacher/writer on eschatology to get it wrong in some part is first that they get caught up in dogmatic little formulas, such as the one you present here, which really aren't in scripture. They are assumptions that people make which end up causing misunderstandings.

For example

Beasts are kingdoms.... well the Lamb and the Dragon are both beasts... but they aren't kingdoms (by your own admission). Thus th beasts = kingdoms formula is already not entirely true.

Dragon = devil, but the final beast of daniel 7, the 1st beast of revelation 13, and the beast of revelation 17 are described to look exactly like the dragon, yet they are not the devil

Now, there is common meaning behind the symbols used but its not some dogmatic formula that MUST be followed at all costs... for example the symbolism of " a woman" represents the idea of a religious system, or a faith. However, its not really just that simple, because nations can be involved as well... for example the woman of Rev. 12 is the nation of Israel... which is both a religious faith, and a nation
The woman of Rev 17 represents the false religious system of the world and has spanned numerous kingdoms, not just one specific one.

Beasts often do represent kingdoms, daniel is full of clear examples of this. However, beasts also represent individual people who are great leaders or powerful rulers.
For example, the head of Gold in Nebuchadnezer's dream, which corresponds to the lion of daniel's later vision, it is usually stated and assumed that these represent babylon and that is true and accurate.. HOWEVER in daniel 2:38 we are told that the head of Gold was Nebuchadnezer specificly.

The reason for this duality is a concept which is somewhat lost to the modern mind. In the ancient world the king and the kingdom were intertwined... the king was the kingdom and visa versa. To refer to babylon while Nebuchadnezer was the king was the same as refering to Nebuchadnezer, and visa versa.

When reading Rev 13 it is impossible and non-sensical to read the descriptions fo the two beasts unless you interpet them as individual people. It simply doesn't make any sense to read it as kingdoms only. How can a kingdom do miracles? How can a kingdom cause people to worship another kingdom?? How can you erect a statue of a kingdom?? How can a kingdom be cast into the lake of fire (which Rev states that both of those beasts will be).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the beasts DO NOT represent kingdoms, but that the represent both the kingdom and the leader of that kingdom. Thus the first beast out of the water (gentile nations) represents a revived empire that in some way resembles rome or is linked to rome.. BUT it also represents the prince of that empire (who is spoken of in daniel chapter 9).

Through out Rev 13 both beasts are described with terms that can only reasonably be applied to individual people, and in terms that reflect the nature of their kingdoms.. thus they are both representing a kingdom, and the ruler of that kingdom.

Further, even the language supports this as the beasts are refered to with masculine pronouns. If they were kingdoms they would be refered to with neuter pronouns. Thus they must represent individual people as well.

Simon_Templar · Feb 5, 2006

one other thing too..

the first beast is described as coming out fo the water, and the second out of the land.. this indicates (refering to other uses of the symbols of water and land) that the 1st beast comes out of the gentile nations and the second beast comes out of Israel

Questions concerning Daniel 7 & 8

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