TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

Carpenter0325 · May 19, 2005

I have another question...the last words Jesus spoke on the Cross were, "Father into THY hands do I commit/commend MY spirit.

Shouldn't he have said, according to the Oneness belief, "Father, into THY hands do I commit THY spirit?"

There is a ton of word squeezing in this discussion, so I thought I would just toss this out there to see what people think.

Cubes · May 19, 2005

Carpenter0325 said:
Hi everyone, this is my first post here, I am carrying over a heated discussion we are having on another forum.

I have just one single question for those individuals who embrace the doctrine of the Trinity.

The OPs I speak with insist absolutely and with no doubt that the doctrine of the Trinity forces an individual to believe in Three Gods.

So I would like to ask, do Trinitarians really believe in three Gods like my cohorts on the OP forum believe? They are very careful using the wor tritheism, but that is really what they assume.

Thanks!!!!

Bill

Welcome, Bill.

I am not a trinitarian so am not qualified to answer you but there are others who can, I am sure.

I believe in One God, who is our Father in heaven, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Cubes · May 19, 2005

Carpenter0325 said:
I have another question...the last words Jesus spoke on the Cross were, "Father into THY hands do I commit/commend MY spirit.

Shouldn't he have said, according to the Oneness belief, "Father, into THY hands do I commit THY spirit?"

There is a ton of word squeezing in this discussion, so I thought I would just toss this out there to see what people think.

Hi Carpenter 0325/Bill

I am not sure I understand entirely, but this is my understanding:

Each person has a spirit that is given him by God, regardless of whether or not they love God and are saved.

But to those who love God who are saved, God also gives his holy spirit.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I chose this scripture because it demonstrates the two concepts: our spirit and God's spirit.

I believe that a person can also have their own spirit and that of the devil... this is evident because Jesus and his disciples cast out demons out of people regularly and the people returned to their natural selves, then additionally filled with the spirit of God if they accepted Christ and follow in the way.

So Jesus has his own spirit and is also full of the Spirit of God (his Father).
Thus he commended his own spirit into the Father's hands...which incidentally is what Stephen did when he died. Obviously, this also demonstrates that the lesser commends himself to the greater. Always God reveals himself in a new way, and that when we are not even seeking or looking!

Hope that helps. It helped me.

Simonline · May 19, 2005

Carpenter0325 said:
Hi everyone, this is my first post here, I am carrying over a heated discussion we are having on another forum.

I have just one single question for those individuals who embrace the doctrine of the Trinity.

The OPs I speak with insist absolutely and with no doubt that the doctrine of the Trinity forces an individual to believe in Three Gods.

So I would like to ask, do Trinitarians really believe in three Gods like my cohorts on the OP forum believe? They are very careful using the wor tritheism, but that is really what they assume.

Thanks!!!!

Bill

As a 'strict and particular' (and lifelong) Trinitarian I can absolutely and categorically deny with every fibre of my being (and I suggest you check out all my posts around this forum on the subject which will bear witness to this fact) that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God is nothing more than three separate and distinct 'Divine Beings' in very tight association.

The absolutely foundational and fundamental Scriptural basis of all teaching concerning the Nature of God for both Judaism and Christianity is Deut.6:4 - "Shema Israel. Adonai elohenu; Adonai echad." "Hear O Israel. The LORD our God; The LORD is One."

This means that whatever else God is, God is ONE BEING. However, the Hebrew word echad - 'One' means a composite unit (a single Being composed of distinct 'parts' [or, in this case, Persons] i.e. One Being - Three Persons) rather than a mathematical unit (as would be the case if God were Unitarian (One Being - One Person) in Nature).

The basic problem is that God is far too big for us to fully comprehend so we have to rely upon what he reveals to us of himself. Because God is far greater than us in ways we cannot even begin to imagine then it follows that God is not simply a larger 'Infinite sized' human being but is actually far more complex in Nature than that.

Again the problem is that people usually start from what they know (ie themselves and others as human beings) and on that basis project upwards onto God, saying 'I think God is like this!'. What we should be doing is starting from what came first (i.e. God) and getting to know him through his revelation of himself to Mankind, as found in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, and from that starting point then scalling down to what we are namely finite unitarian creatures that are made in the image of God, which means that we are like God in some ways but not in others.

God himself says (1Cor.2:6-16) that he cannot be 'mapped out' or 'comprehensively understood' on the basis of sin-impared human reasoning or human logic alone (Jer.17:9) but that in order to understand him we need him first to reveal himself to us through his Spirit. Thus some people have had that revelation but many others have not. However, this has not stopped such people from trying to imagine what it is that we as Trinitarians believe and having come up with these vain imaginings they then proceed to try and demolish them as one sets up a 'straw man' to be demolished. Having personally discussed and debated on these threads with several Unitarians it is blatantly obvious to me that these people are effectively stabbing in the dark when it comes to trying to comprehend the Trinitarian doctrine, and this despite our best efforts to try and explain it as fully, comprehensively and honestly as we can?! This, coupled with God's revelation, is what convinces me more than anything else that the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

When I read the posts of Der Alter for example I can discern from what he writes (and the way in which he writes) that he truely understands the doctrine of the Trinity and if you ask him I feel sure that he would say the same thing about me. But when I read the posts of Peterson or Cubes then it becomes obvious to me that they really don't understand the Trinity because they are absolutely locked into the Unitarian way of thinking.

I believe that good sound teaching on the subject (and not all who believe the doctrine of the Trinity really understand it, let alone are able to teach it) can often be the precursor to receiving the Divine revelation on the subject. Conversely, if someone is so locked in to a different understanding of the Nature of God, or even a different understanding of any Truth, then no amount of sound teaching will avail them anything (Matt.13:14-15). Such people can only be left to the unscrutable mercies of God.

Simonline.

Der Alte · May 22, 2005

In another thread I posted a list of thirty-five personal characteristics/attributes, of the Holy Spirit, and the related verses, which was a result of my own Bible research. Here are three articles which also address this topic, links to sources below each article. The first article lists sixty-two personal atrtributes of the Holy Spirit.

One of the standard anti-Trinitarian arguments is, "These is only anthropomorphisms, applying human attributes to inanimate objects, such as mountains leaping for joy, etc." However, there is a big difference between one anthropomorphism applied to one thing, one time, and 62 such attributes being spoken of relating to the Holy Spirit. The mountains, etc. are never said to have a "mind" or a "self," the Holy Spirit is.

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).

Some cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses [sic] say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11).

The truth is that the Holy Spirit is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

His Names
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

His Attributes
1. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
3. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
4. Will - 1 Cor. 12:11
5. Loves - Rom. 15:30
6. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2

Symbols of
1. Dove - Matt. 3:15
2. Wind - John 3:5
3. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against
1. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
2. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
3. Insult - Heb. 10:29
4. Lied to - Acts 5:3
5. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
6. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

Power in Christ's Life
1. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
2. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
3. Led by - Luke 4:1
4. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
5. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
6. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit

1. Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2. Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
3. Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
4. Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
5. Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
6. Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
7. Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
8. Leads - Rom. 8:14
9. Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
10. Liberates - Rom. 8:2
11. Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
12. Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
13. Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
14. Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
15. Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
16. Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
17. Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
18. Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
19. Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
20. Regenerates - Titus 3:5
21. Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
22. Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
23. Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20
24. Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
25. Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
26. Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor. 2:4
27. Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
28. Teaches - John 14:26
29. Guides in truth - John 16:13
30. Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
31. Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
32. Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
33. Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
34. Worship helper - Phil. 3:3
35. Communion with believers 2 Cor 13:14

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/holyspirit.htm

http://www.meetingpoint.org/~swete/art11.html

http://www.mbrem.com/holy_spirit/hspirit.htm

http://www.dtl.org/trinity/article/holy-spirit.htm

The Holy Spirits person can be further demonstrated by examining the pronouns applied to Him. Even though the word Spirit in the Greek New Testament is a neuter noun, it is often used with a masculine demonstrative pronoun. This emphasizes the personality of the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit by using the masculine pronouns He and Him. The Greek word ekeinos is used as a demonstrative pronoun throughout John 14, 15 and 16. The masculine noun paraklete, for Helper (Comforter, KJV), is also used throughout these chapters for the Holy Spirit. Let us examine His personal nature in these verses:

John 14:16-17 -- And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Helper (parakleton), that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knowes Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 -- But the Helper (parakletos), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He (ekeinos) will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26 -- But when the Helper (parakletos) comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He (ekeinos) will testify of me.

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (parakletos) will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He (ekeinos) has come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

John 16:13-14 -- However, when He (ekeinos), the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He (ekeinos) will glorify me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you.

http://www.utahgospelmission.org/Docs/ChristianDoctrine/HolySpirit.htm

2) If pneuma is meant to be impersonal, then God the Father is also impersonal: "God is spirit (pneuma) and those who worship Him must worship....". Also, the angels sent forth in Heb 1:14 as "ministering spirits (pneumata) sent forth to serve...." are also impersonal.

3) Read John 14:26: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." The Holy Spirit is called "the Counselor", which in Greek is ho paracleto, which is masculine. In other words, Sharon's argument contradicts itself.

4) ekeinos is certainly masculine - the ending "os" is the masculine nominative singular form, just like the man Simon was called Petros instead of petra (Mt 16:16-19). The inspired author could had written the neuter word ekeino, but he didn't, did he? No, he used ekeinos. It's the same word used again one chapter later, "But when the Counselor comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, He (ekeinos) will bear witness to me..." See also Jn 16:7-13.

5) The Holy Spirit has attributes of a Person: He helps (Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1), loves (Rom 15:30), teaches (Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26), guides (Jn 16:13), comforts (Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31), leads (Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14), thinks (Acts 15:25,28), speaks (Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2), can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4), and so on.

http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/pneuma.html

Peterson · May 24, 2005

Trinitarians are fond of saying that the Holy Spirit is not "merely" a force or an influence, but is a coequal person, the same as the Father and the Son within a trinity. The question that then logically arises, if this is true, this third person of this trinity still has the effect on mankind of a force or influence, and not the Father or Jesus Christ.

It then becomes a question of who is dealing with mankind as a representative from heaven? Without exception, trinitarians assume that wherever "Holy Ghost" or or "Spirit" is mentioned, it refers to this third person, and not the Father or Jesus Christ, even when it clearly states "Spirit of God", or "Spirit of Christ."

The passages mentioned above, are clearly taken out of context in every instance. It won't be necessary to cite them all, but we could.

Names, for instance: 1 Cor. 3:16; "Spirit of God"; this is a direct reference to the Father, and not a third person as surrounding text, and the ananalogy of a body being God's temple as was the Temple in Jerusalem makes clear. "Spirit of God" is the Spirit of the Father. It is not the "Spirit of the Spirit."

Romans 8:9; This entire chapter involves the Father and Son only. There is not the slightest hint of a third person. Verse eleven, for instance: But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you... This is obviously the Spirit of the Father that raised Jesus from the dead, as is made absolutely clear in Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Colossians 2:12; Acts 13:30-37; 2 Cor. 4:14, and many other places.

"Access to God," Ephesians 2:18 is cited here; "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." The Spirit mentioned here is the Spirit of Christ as surrounding text makes clear, especially verses 13 and 14; For now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 tell us that Christ is the only mediator between man and the Father.

None of the verses that trinitarians use as proof text, stand up when viewed in context. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father given us through his like spirited Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus, in talking to his disciples said concerning the Holy Spirit in Luke 20:15; For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay or resist. He said he would give the wisdom, not a third person.

Der Alte · May 24, 2005

Peterson said:
[SIZE=-1]It then becomes a question of who is dealing with mankind as a representative from heaven? Without exception, trinitarians assume that wherever "Holy Ghost" or or "Spirit" is mentioned, it refers to this third person, and not the Father or Jesus Christ, even when it clearly states "Spirit of God", or "Spirit of Christ."[/SIZE]

Blah, blah, blah, and more blah, blah, blah. I have posted several in-depth discussions which refer to many, many, scriptures. Not assumptions. And you post the same old reponse every time. "The spirit is not a third person, The spirit is not a third person." No proof, no evidence, no discussion. Just you saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." over and over,

[SIZE=-1]The passages mentioned above, are clearly taken out of context in every instance. It won't be necessary to cite them all, but we could.[/SIZE]

You do not have a clue what out-of-context means. I posted a list of over 80 passages with no commentary just scripture and your same old knee jerk answer was "Out of context."

[SIZE=-1]Romans 8:9; This entire chapter involves the Father and Son only. There is not the slightest hint of a third person.[/SIZE]

Yeah, right! Also John 13:17, the Spirit has a self distinct from the Father and Rom 8:27, a mind distinct from the Father. Here is chap. 8 involving the Father and the Son only. Notice the Spirit has a self.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

[SIZE=-1]None of the verses that trinitarians use as proof text, stand up when viewed in context. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father given us through his like spirited Son Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]

The articles I posted are in-depth studies of ALL the relevant scriptures. You are the one posting bits and pieces of scripures and ignoring everything that was posted. You admittedly ignored the majority of scriptures posted, picked out one or two verses, made a few comments and claim your nonsense proves something. You are the one proof texting.

[SIZE=-1]Jesus, in talking to his disciples said concerning the Holy Spirit in Luke 20:15; For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay or resist. He said he would give the wisdom, not a third person.[/SIZE]

How does this verse about "wisdom" prove anything at all about the Spirit, which isn't even mentioned in the entire chapter? How does Jesus giving wisdom, or anything else, at one time mean He did not, cannot, give anything else at another time? This is nonsense.

Der Alte · May 27, 2005

*Bump*

Peterson · May 31, 2005

Romans 8:16; The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. (KJV)

Notice that in the KJV, the word is translated itself, and not "himself". It all depends on what you are trying to prove. As you know, "Himself" and "Itself, are interchangeable from the same Greek word. Trinitarians, of course, prefer to use "Himself", whether it fits the context or not. In any event, Romans 8 still is no evidence of a trinity.

Verses 9 through 17, involve the Father and Son only. It is the Spirit of the Father through Jesus Christ that is being discussed here. Regardless of the pronoun applied, it still refers to the Spirit of the Father.

dcyates · Jun 1, 2005

Peterson said:
Trinitarians are fond of saying that the Holy Spirit is not "merely" a force or an influence, but is a coequal person, the same as the Father and the Son within a trinity. The question that then logically arises, if this is true, this third person of this trinity still has the effect on mankind of a force or influence, and not the Father or Jesus Christ.
Please forgive me, but this isn't logical at all. How can the question 'logically arise' that "this third person of the trinity still has the effect on mankind of a force or influence, and not the Father or Jesus Christ," when it is the contention of trinitarians "that the Holy Spirit is not 'merely' a force or an influence" (emphases mine)?

It then becomes a question of who is dealing with mankind as a representative from heaven? Without exception, trinitarians assume that wherever "Holy Ghost" or or "Spirit" is mentioned, it refers to this third person, and not the Father or Jesus Christ, even when it clearly states "Spirit of God", or "Spirit of Christ."
So are you suggesting that God the Father possesses a spirit, just as humans possess a spirit, in spite of the teaching of Jesus that "God is spirit" (John 4.24)? How can one both 'possess' something and 'be' that something at the same time? Even if that something is a part of you, you cannot both possess it and be it. I have a head, but I am not my head. I have a kidney, but I am not my kidney. I have a left foot, but I am not my left foot.
Besides that: 1. Paul refers to the Holy Spirit as a full name in the same way as, and at about the same ratio that, he refers to Christ by the full name, our Lord Jesus Christ. This use of the full name in itself suggests "distinction from," not "identity with," as the Pauline presupposition.
2. Despite suggestions to the contrary, Paul thinks of the Spirit primarily in terms of the Spirit's relationship to, not identity with, God (the Father, although he never uses this imagery of this relationship). Not only does he more often speak of the "Spirit of God" than of the "Spirit of Christ," but God is invariably the subject of the verb when Paul speaks of human reception of the Spirit. Thus God "sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts" (Gal. 4.6), or "gives" us his Spirit (1 Thess. 4.8; 2 Cor. 1.22; 5.5; Gal. 3.5; Rom. 5.5; Eph. 1.17), an understanding that in Paul's case is almost certainly determined by his Old Testament (OT) roots, where God "fills with" (Exod. 31.3) or "pours out" his Spirit (Joel 2.28), and the "Spirit of God" comes on people for all sorts of extraordinary ("charismatic") activities (e.g., Num. 24.2; Judg. 3.10).
Two passages in particular give insight into Paul's understanding of this primary, presuppositional relationship. In 1 Cor. 2.10-12 he uses the analogy of human interior consciousness (only one's "spirit" knows one's mind) to insist that the Spirit alone knows the mind of God. Now I know that it will be attempted by some to use this to support their theory that the Spirit is therefore to be identified completely with, and thus indistinct from, God the Father. But on the contrary, the context shows that Paul's own concern in this analogy is with the Spirit as the source of our understanding the cross as God's wisdom. The Spirit alone "searches all things," even "the depths of God" (an idea that again reflects Paul's background in the OT and Jewish apocalyptic; cf. Dan. 2.22-23); and because of this singular relationship with God, the Spirit alone knows and reveals God's otherwise hidden wisdom (1 Cor. 2.7).
Now I fully acknowledge that none of this so far constitutes anything like a conclusive slam-dunk argument in favour of maintaining that the Spirit is a separate and distinct Person within the Triune Godhead, but wait. In Rom. 8.26-27 this same idea is expressed obversely. Among other matters, Paul is here concerned to show how the Spirit, in the presence of our own weaknesses and inability to speak for ourselves, is able to intercede adequately on our behalf. The effectiveness of the Spirit's intercession lies precisely in the fact that God, who searches our hearts, likewise 'knows the mind of the Spirit', who is making intercession for us.
3. Given these data, the cause for wonder is that Paul should also refer to the Spirit as "the Spirit of Christ." That he does so at all says something very significant about his christology. Here is evidence for Paul's "high christology," that a person steeped in the OT understanding of the Spirit of God as Paul so clearly was, should so easily, on the basis of his Christian experience, speak of him as the Spirit of Christ as well. (This point isn't given in an attempt to argue against identifying the Spirit completely and absolutely with, and thus indistinct from, Jesus Christ. Rather it is given to argue against those who would deny the divinity of Jesus to begin with.)
4. Paul's understanding of God, which, good Jewish boy that he was, had been thoroughly monotheistic, is irrevocably changed due to his personal experience of the Risen Christ on the Damascus Road, along with his subsequent encounter with the Holy Spirit. That Paul's understanding of God had become functionally trinitarian and that the distinctions between Father, Son, and Spirit (or, closer to Paul's own language: God, Christ, and Spirit) were presuppositional for him may be demonstrated in three ways: the trinitarian texts themselves (2 Cor. 13.13; 1 Cor 12.4-6; Eph. 4.4-6); the many soteriological texts that are expressed in trinitarian terms; and the passages in which in close proximity the functions of Christ and the Spirit are expressed in ways that presuppose clear distinctions.
1). The grace-benediction with which Paul singularly concludes 2 Corinthians is so well known that it is easy to miss its several remarkable features: first, that Paul elaborates his concluding grace at all--which he does not do anywhere else, either in his earlier or later letters; second, that he does so with this trinitarian formulation, which appears here in such a presuppositional way--not as something Paul argues for, but as the assumed experienced reality of Christian life. That it is an ad hoc elaboration, and not part of the church's existing liturgical tradition, seems certain from its third remarkable feature: the order--Christ, God, and Spirit--which can only be explained because Paul began his standard benediction, and then felt compelled in this letter to add words about the Father and the Spirit. That the three expressions are precisely the Pauline understanding of the soteriological functions of the Trinity seems to clinch the matter.
The second feature in particular, its presuppositional nature--not to mention that it is said in the form of prayer--suggests that this is the proper place to begin all discussions about Paul's understanding of God. For here is a text that by its very off-handed, presuppositional expression reveals Paul's theology--both his theology proper and his soteriology, which is foundational for the former.
First, it serves as our entree into Paul's theology proper, i.e., into his understanding of God himself, which had been so radically effected for him by the twin realities of the death and resurrection of Christ and the gift of the eschatological Spirit. Granted that Paul did not wrestle with the ontological questions that such statements beg to have addressed (but this post is getting plenty long enough as it is). Nor does he here assert the deity of Christ and the Spirit. But what he does is to equate the activity of the three divine persons in concert and in one prayer, with the clause about God the Father standing in second place. This would appear to suggest that Paul was strongly trinitarian in any meaningful sense of that term--that the one God is Father, Son, and Spirit, and that in dealing with Christ and the Spirit one is dealing with God every bit as much as one is with God the Father.
Second, this text also serves to encapsulate what lies at the very heart of Paul's singluar passion--the gospel, with its focus on salvation in Christ, equally available by faith to Gentile and Jew alike. That the love of God is the foundation of Paul's soteriology is expressly stated, with passion and clarity, in such passages as Rom. 5.1-11; 8.31-39; and Eph. 1.3-14. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is what gave concrete expression to that love; through Christ's suffering and death on behalf of his loved ones, God effected salvation for them at one point in our human history. The participation in the Holy Spirit expresses the ongoing appropriation of that love and grace in the life of the believer and the believing community. The koinonia tou hagiou pneumatos (note the full name!) is how the living God not only brings people into an intimate and abiding relationship with himself, as the God of all grace, but also cause them to participate in all the benefits of that grace and salvation, indwelling them in the present by his own presence, guaranteeing their final eschatological glory.
Thus this benediction, with its affirmation of the distinctions of God, Christ, and Spirit, also expresses in shorthand form what is found everywhere elsewhere in Paul, that "salvation in Christ" is in fact the cooperative work of God, Christ, and the Spirit. Such affirmations would seem to shut down all possibilites that Paul could ever identify the Risen Christ with the Spirit so that in Paul "immanent christology is pneumatology" (cf. the two other most clearly trinitarian passages in the corpus: 1 Cor. 12.4-6 and Eph. 4.4-6).
2). That this "soteriological trinitarianism" is foundational to Paul's understanding of the gospel is further evidenced by the large number of soteriological texts in which salvation is expressed in similar trinitarian formulation. This is especially true of the larger, explicit passages such Rom. 5.1-8; 2 Cor. 3.1-4.6; Gal. 4.4-6; or Eph. 1.3-14 (cf. Titus 3.5-7). But it is also true of many other texts, primarily soteriological, in which salvation is either explicitly or implicitly predicated on the threefold work of the triune God, as encapsulated in 2 Cor. 13.13. Thus:
1 Thess. 1.4-5, where the of God has brought about the realization of election through the gospel (the message about Christ) empowered by the Holy Spirit;
2 Thess. 2.13, where God's people are "beloved by the Lord [through his death]," because God elected them for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit;
1 Cor. 1.4-7, where God's grace has been given in Christ Jesus, who in turn has enriched the church with every kind of Spirit gifting;
1 Cor. 2.4-5, where Paul's preaching of Christ crucified (v. 2) is accompanied by the Spirit's power so that their faith might rest in God;
1 Cor. 6.11, where God is the conceptual subject of the "divine passives" (you were washed, justified, sanctified), effected in the name of Christ and by the Spirit;
Rom. 8.3-4, where God sent his Son to do what the law could not in terms of securing salvation, and the Spirit does what the law could not in terms of effecting righteousness in behaviour ("walking" = living the ways of God);
Col. 3.16, where in worship it is all played in reverse--as the message of Christ "dwells richly among them," they worship the God from whom salvation has come, by means of a Spirit-inspired hymnody;
Eph. 2.18, where "through [the death of] Christ" (vv. 14-16) Jew and Gentile together have access to God by the one Spirit, whom both alike received;
Phil. 3.3, where believers serve (God is implied) by the Spirit of God and thus boast in the effective work of Christ Jesus.
3). As final evidence that Paul is presuppositionally trinitarian and that he could never therefore have confused or "identified" the Risen Christ with the Spirit are several other kinds of (non-soteriological) texts, where the activities of the Risen Christ and the Spirit are clearly kept separate in the apostle's understanding. One could also note this kind of distinction in Rom. 9.1, where the formula "in Christ" and "by the Spirit" functions quite differently--but characteristically--in one sentence. Similarily, in Rom. 15.30 ("through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit") the repeated dia indicates that Paul's appeal has a twofold basis. First, it is "through our Lord Jesus Christ," meaning "on the basis of what Christ has done for us all as outlined in the argument of this letter"; second, it is "through the love of the Spirit," meaning "on the basis of the love for all the saints, including myself, that the Spirit engenders."
The net result of this study, therefore, is that Paul would not so much as recognize the language nor the theological assertions made by those who consider him to have identified without distinction the Spirit with Christ. Rather, his presuppositions lay elsewhere, with the one God, now bringing salvation through the cooperative work of the three divine persons: God, Christ, and Spirit.

Romans 8:9; This entire chapter involves the Father and Son only. There is not the slightest hint of a third person. Verse eleven, for instance: But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you...
So is it then your assertion that we must possess three different and distinct 'spirits' in order to effect our salvation: God's spirit, Jesus' spirit, and then finally our own? Where else might we find this novel teaching within Scripture?

"Access to God," Ephesians 2:18 is cited here; "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." The Spirit mentioned here is the Spirit of Christ as surrounding text makes clear, especially verses 13 and 14; Note, however, that Paul is referring to "one Spirit" (cf. Eph. 4.5-6), not two or three.

Der Alte · Jun 1, 2005

Peterson said:
[SIZE=-1]Romans 8:16; The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. (KJV)

Notice that in the KJV, the word is translated itself, and not "himself". It all depends on what you are trying to prove. As you know, "Himself" and "Itself, are interchangeable from the same Greek word. Trinitarians, of course, prefer to use "Himself", whether it fits the context or not. In any event, Romans 8 still is no evidence of a trinity.

Verses 9 through 17, involve the Father and Son only. It is the Spirit of the Father through Jesus Christ that is being discussed here. Regardless of the pronoun applied, it still refers to the Spirit of the Father.[/SIZE]

I don't see any evidence that the Greek means anything. Just another copy/paste from some anti-Trinitarian source. It is absolutely clear you ignored my post above where I did in fact post evidence. Were you the least bit interested in the truth, rather than pushing your own brand of koolaid you would have read that Greek has masculine, feminine, and neuter endings. And the N.T. writers used the masculine reflexive pronoun, "ekeinos." Jesus when he spoke of the parakletos, which OBTW, is masculine, He used the masculine pronoun. Here is the link to the post if you can't find it.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15702615&postcount=145

And just in case you suddenly develop an interest in the truth, here are thirteen online Greek grammars.

But, you will excuse me won't you? I won't be holding my breath

http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grknouns.htm

http://viking.coe.uh.edu/grnl1/intr/intr.0.2.3.pdf

http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson13.htm

http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~u0007546/A082/Lesson06/00all.htm

http://www.teknia.com/public/pdf/Summary.pdf

http://www.monachos.net/greek/8_definite_articles.shtml

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?lookup=greek+grammar&collection

http://www.biblicalgreek.org/grammar/images/peurifoyterms.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/resources/sharp.html

http://www.net-magic.net/users/bmj/articthe.html

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=goodwin&bookID=greekgrammar&page=35&view=png

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/139/author_id/61/

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/121/author_id/40/

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, [masc.] [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he [[size=+1]εκεινος[/size] masc.] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Robertson-Joh 14:26 -
Whom (ho). Grammatical neuter, but whom is correct translation. The Father will send the Holy Spirit (Joh_14:16; Luk_24:49; Act_2:33), but so will the Son (Joh_15:26; Joh_16:7) as Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit upon the disciples (Joh_20:22). There is no contradiction in this relation of the Persons in the Trinity (the Procession of the Holy Spirit). Here the Holy Spirit (full title as in Mar_3:29; Mat_12:32; Luk_12:10) is identified with the Paraclete.
He (ekeinos). Emphatic demonstrative pronoun and masculine like parakle¯tos.
Shall teach you all things (humas didaxei panta). The Holy Spirit knows the deep things of God (1Co_2:10) and he is our Teacher in the Dispensation of the Holy Spirit of both new truth (Joh_14:25) and old.
Bring to your remembrance (hupomne¯sei humas). Future active indicative of hupomimne¯sko¯, old verb to remind, to recall, here only in this Gospel (cf. 3Jo_1:10; 2Ti_2:14) and with two accusatives (person and thing). After pentecost the disciples will be able better to recall and to understand what Jesus had said (how dull they had been at times) and to be open to new revelations from God (cf. Peter at Joppa and Caesarea).

OBTW note the definition of parkletos, a "person" who is called to one's side. Oh wait that can't be right according to Peterson the parkeletos must be an it, a thing, like a blanket or a stuffed teddy bear.

G3875 [SIZE=+1]παρακλητος[/SIZE] parakletos
Thayer Definition:
1) summoned, called to ones side, especially called to ones aid
1a) one who pleads anothers cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
1b) one who pleads anothers cause with one, an intercessor
1b1) of Christ in his exaltation at Gods right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
1c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1c1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom
Part of Speech: noun masculine

A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: a root word
Citing in TDNT: 5:800, 782

And did you notice? According to Peterson it does not matter what the actual words in the Bible were. Peterson will tell you what the Bible means, just ignore the literal words.

Peterson · Jun 1, 2005

And did you notice "1b1" above. It is Christ who is our only intercessor: 1 Timothy 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator (intercessor) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:22; By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Verse 25; Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

We have only one mediator who intercedes for us between the Father and mankind. Christ is the only one who pleads our case. There is no third person involved.

Cubes · Jun 1, 2005

Hi Simonline:

I think this is where we left off:

Simonline said:
The glory which the eternally begotten Son/Word of God shared with the other two members of the Trinity was the glory of pure Divinity. Since the Incarnation however, the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) has become human (without giving up or even compromising his Divinity) and now, as the Messiah, has been highly exalted not only as a Divine Being (which is how it was before he became incarnate) but also as a human being. As Divine, (and therefore infinite) the second Person of the Trinity could not increase the amount of glory which he shared with his Father and the Holy Spirit prior to the Incarnation. The reference to his being 'highly exalted' is therefore only with reference to his humanity in that, as the Messiah (who has overcome and destroyed the power of sin and death), who is both Infinite Divine and finite human, his humanity is equal to his Divinity (which is why his humanity is now as much glorified as his Divinity was prior to the Incarnation).

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What I understand and believe is that Jesus said he had glory with the Father (John 17)... and we know that it was he who came, and it is HE and only HE who is now Highly Exalted and ever shall be. SAME PERSON.

According to this definition you are a Unitarian (believing that God is Unitarian (one Being - one Person) rather than Trinitarian (one Being - three Persons) in Nature. If that is the case then your definition of a Christian is not the same as that of either the Judeo-Christian Scriptures or Orthodox Conservative Evangelical Christianity, since both hold that God is Trinitarian rather than Unitarian in Nature. Furthermore the Judeo-Christian Scriptures repudiate any concept of God as Unitarian or the Messiah as a totally finite created being.

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God is One, and only One. That is what the Holy Scriptures teach: what the prophets, apostles, Jesus Christ and the the faithful of God in the scriptures taught and believed.

One God called YHWH/Father.

I make no claim that Messiah is a totally finite created being as all things were created through him.

By this I do not mean that he is the Father or the same being as the Father. I also believe him to be subjected to the Father as he is from the Father.

This therefore begs the question that if God is Unitarian in Nature (as you both believe and assert) and the Bible says that God [the Father alone?] created the Creation but also says that the Messiah [the Son alone] created the Creation then which one is lying?!

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YHWH Created everything. (Genesis1/Isaiah)
The Bible teaches that God spoke all the creation into existence. (Genesis 1/John 1:3)
Thus YHWH created all things out of His resources through/by His Word. (Genesis 1, John 1, Colossians 1).

Subsequently, nothing was created that was created without God speaking... hence the Word that was in the beginning through and by which all things were made.

If you have other scriptures that add to these or teach differently, then feel welcome to post them.

If God is Trinitarian in Nature then there is no problem, but if God is Unitarian in Nature (as you assert) then either God or the Messiah is lying or the Scriptures are false (since they contradict themselves). Either way, such a duplicitous religion is to be repudiated at the first available oportunity (as surely would be by all persons of integrity)?!

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An example is the work of salvation. It is the Father's work entirely but accomplished through Christ, and not without him. The Father chose to do it that way in order to reclaim us back to him.

Think in simpler terms of Abraham and Isaac and the lamb that God provided in the thicket. And of the passover in Egypt. You can see that even though Moses was invovled as an emissary of God, the work was totally God's work.

The Lamb of God was given to us by the Father...and yes, Jesus WILLINGLY and LOVINGLY gave himself for us for which cause he is forever, highly exalted.

No, the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinitarian God and as such is not a sub-servient chattel of either the Father or the Son. The Three Persons are fully Divine and equally part of the One Divine Being. As the third Person of the Trinitarian God then he is simultaneously the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son (since all three Persons are part of the One Eternally Divine Being). This, for example, is how the Messiah was able to promise to his disciples that HE (i.e. the Messiah) would be with them always, even to the end of the age (Matt.28:20) since it was only by means of his non-corporeal Infinite Spirit (who, as the Third Person of the Trinitarian God, is simultaneously the omnipresent Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son) that the Messiah could ever hope to fulfil that promise simultaneously to all his disciples scattered throughout the world?! Even so, the Messiah also says that he would send another Comforter/Counsellor (Jn.14:16-18). Ordinarily (in purely human terms) this would be a contradiction but because God is Trinitarian there is no contradiction here because all three Persons are One Being and so can legitimately be spoken of in either the first Person ['I'] or third Person ['He'] without any contradiction. Notice Jn.14:16-17 speak of the Spirit as 'him' but then in verse 18 the Messiah suddenly says 'I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you.' This obviously does not refer to the Messiah himself (as a corporeal Being) but rather to God. What the Messiah is saying here is 'I [as God] will not leave you as orphans. I [as God] will come to you.' Sure enough God kept his promise to his disciples and returned to them [by his Spirit] at Pentecost, to dwell in them forever (Matt.28:20).

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The Spirit is the Spirit of God/Father.
He is the initial giver of the Spirit. He gave of His spirit to Christ who is able to give the same to as many as are his.
At the same time, to whom the Father or Christ gives the Spirit, that person can impart the same spirit to a child of God, though I believe that the process of adoption doesn't work through impartation from men... but empowerment does.

No. Jn.1:1 does not teach that Christ is the Word of God at all since such a belief is based upon sloppy eisegesis (reading into the Scriptures what you think it should say or what you would like it to say) rather than sound exegesis (reading from the Scriptures what it actually does say).

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Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Does this not refer to Christ, and if Christ, then is he not the Word referred to in John 1?

What Jn.1:1 actually teaches is that the Word is Eternal, the Word was with God and the Word was God (i.e.Divine). One of the numerous declarations of the Trinitarian Nature of God (to those who have eyes to see).

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We who are in Christ shall ever be with Christ and with the Father. Christ is eternal. Melchizedek is eternal.
It doesn't mean that God is other than One.
He is One who created everything and everyone. The Father of all indeed.

The Word is a reference, NOT to the Messiah (or 'Christ'), since the Messiah did not come into existence until the Incarnation, but to the eternally begotten Son of God (the second Person of the Trinity). The Messiah being the Incarnate Son of God rather than the pre-incarnate Son of God. The Divine Son of God alone is not the Messiah. The Human Jesus of Nazareth alone is not the Messiah. Only when the two natures are amalgamated into ONE PERSON does the Messiah ['Christ'] come into existence.

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Jesus Christ is the same to me, yesterday, today and forever.

Furthermore the Scriptures do not teach that the Word was 'a God/god' since that would be a blatant contradiction of Isa.43:10-13 (and another reason to reject Judeo-Christianity as a 'false religion'), but rather that the Word and God were (are) one and the same Divine Being. This is the ONLY way that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves.

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The narrative more than teaches that he is another person... and not the Father but rather the express image of the Father. If another person, then a god and not the same God. If Hebrews 1:8-9:

Hbr 1:8But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hbr 1:9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

If we agree that Hebrews 1:8-9 speaks of Christ and the Father, then there should be an "A" in John 1:1. You don't have to be a greek scholar to see that. It is a concept supported by the entire bible that Jesus and the Father are not the same person.

The entire body of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures do not, by any stretch of the imagination, teach that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct Divine Beings, since such a thing would be an absolute impossibility

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.

The Holy Scriptures do not teach that Christ is the Same as the Father, or that YESHUA & YHWH are the Same.
Jesus says he is one with the Father, but one with me too.
CHRIST is not YHWH.

Nothing can, by the same nature, be both Divine and finite simultaneously since one cancels out the other. To be Divine you have to be Infinite. If you are finite then you cannot be Divine.

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All I know is that God is one. That He has given the Son also to have life in himself -- just as He has life in Himself. Eternal life. That we too shall have eternal life if we are found in Christ.

What do you mean by "Divine"? Are the gods divine? (Ps 97:7). They are actual gods, not idols.

The Life is YHWH's Life to give, and it is for sure that unless Christ (His delegated authority) gives it, it cannot be had.

The Messiah is both Divine and finite because he has two natures (hypostatic union), one Divine and the other human. That is the ONLY way that the Messiah can be both Divine and finite simultaneously (the only Being that can).

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As stated before, Messiah is not YHWH. YHWH is One Person.
Jesus is Lord of all the creation though. He is One Person.
They are not the same being, except as in the sense of the Church being many members and one body... which I agree to, with Christ being the head of the church and the Father being the head of Christ.

The Scriptures actually teach that whilst the Persons are different and distinct, the Being is ONE and the same (Deut.6:4).

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That is not what I see at Deut 6:4, Simonline.

I see though that while Israel is made up of 12 tribes, Israel is one.

But the Scriptures dont teach that the Father alone is above all. That's just your misinterpretation of the Scriptural evidence. The Scriptures teach that God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is above all.

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Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

1 Cor 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

These are all that time permits me to look up now.
Christ is Lord of all, but is subjected to the Father, that is why he sits at the right hand of the Father, just as we are subjected to Christ and God willing, shall sit at the right hand of Christ...

With respect, you condemn yourself not by what you acknowledge but by what you deny, namely, the Trinitarian Nature of God and that in spite of all the Scriptural evidence which clearly teaches such (some of which I have endeavoured to show here on this post).

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Well, what shall I say to these things?

Whom YHWH has blessed, no one can curse or condemn. And not who approves himself but whom God approves, no? Moreover, I have believed the very message of Salvation taught in the Holy Scriptures and do abide in the True Vine, thank you.

With respect, I do most certainly disagree since what you claim to believe is at complete variance with the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (as I have demonstrated Q.E.D.). My prayer is that God will reveal his truth to you so that your eyes might be opened and you might realize the glory of the true Trinitarian Nature of God.

Simonline.

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I don't know what QED is. My prayer for you likewise. You are saved by a 3 in 1 God and I am saved by One God called YHWH through His own Son, Jesus Christ. And He has filled me with His very own Spirit by which I cry out to him, saying Father. Glory be to God and to the Lamb of God.

Sorry, I have spent more time than expected and have to run.

Der Alte · Jun 2, 2005

Peterson said:
[SIZE=-1]And did you notice "1b1" above. It is Christ who is our only intercessor: 1 Timothy 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator (intercessor) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:22; By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Verse 25; Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

We have only one mediator who intercedes for us between the Father and mankind. Christ is the only one who pleads our case. There is no third person involved.[/SIZE]

And once again, quite obviously because the WHOLE TRUTH scares you to death, you ignored most of my post, including most of the definition you quoted from.

Unlike you Peterson I believe that God inspired the Bible, ALL of it not just a few verses that "seem" to support what I want to believe. I believe that every word in the Bible is there for a purpose.

When Jesus chose a specific word to address the Holy Spirit, as "He," when Jesus spoke of the mind, and the self of the Holy Spirit. Those words show that the H.S. was/is a "He" in the same way that God and Jesus are "He," and was/is a person, with a mind and a self.

In addition to ignoring the bulk of my post you quoted from the Strong's definition exactly the same way you quote the Bible, a piece here and a piece there, pick and choose, anything that will support your false doctrine.

You ignored the first three parts of the definition, quoted the fourth, then ignored the next 2 parts of the definition.

G3875 [SIZE=+1]παρακλητος[/SIZE] parakletos
Thayer Definition:
1) summoned, called to ones side, especially called to ones aid
1a) one who pleads anothers cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
1b) one who pleads anothers cause with one, an intercessor
1b1) of Christ in his exaltation at Gods right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
1c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1c1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

"here is one God, and one mediator (intercessor)" What exactly do you think this verse about [size=+1]μεσιτης[/size], "mediator, intercessor" proves about the [size=+1]παρακλητος[/size], "Parakeltos, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant?

But you, as all false religions, have your handful of proof texts and you simply ignore anything and everything that contradicts you.

Peterson · Jun 4, 2005

Der Alter said:
And once again, quite obviously because the WHOLE TRUTH scares you to death, you ignored most of my post, including most of the definition you quoted from.

Unlike you Peterson I believe that God inspired the Bible, ALL of it not just a few verses that "seem" to support what I want to believe. I believe that every word in the Bible is there for a purpose.

When Jesus chose a specific word to address the Holy Spirit, as "He," when Jesus spoke of the mind, and the self of the Holy Spirit. Those words show that the H.S. was/is a "He" in the same way that God and Jesus are "He," and was/is a person, with a mind and a self.

In addition to ignoring the bulk of my post you quoted from the Strong's definition exactly the same way you quote the Bible, a piece here and a piece there, pick and choose, anything that will support your false doctrine.

You ignored the first three parts of the definition, quoted the fourth, then ignored the next 2 parts of the definition.
G3875 [size=+1]παρακλητος[/size] parakletos

Thayer Definition:
1) summoned, called to ones side, especially called to ones aid
1a) one who pleads anothers cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
1b) one who pleads anothers cause with one, an intercessor
1b1) of Christ in his exaltation at Gods right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
1c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
1c1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

"here is one God, and one mediator (intercessor)" What exactly do you think this verse about [size=+1]μεσιτης[/size], "mediator, intercessor" proves about the [size=+1]παρακλητος[/size], "Parakeltos, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant?

But you, as all false religions, have your handful of proof texts and you simply ignore anything and everything that contradicts you.

The reason I addressed the fourth definition, is becasue it refers to the previous three, and the fifth. All are references to Jesus Christ.

The sixth definition of the Holy Spirit, if it refers to a third person, has no scriptural backing whatever. Jesus gave his disciples his spirit when he breathed on them (John 20:22).

Matthew 10:19-20; But when the deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20; For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Luke 21:14-15; Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer; For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which for all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Acts 6:10; And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.

Acts 2:17-18;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God [Father], I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh. 18; ... I will pour out in those days of my Spirit and they shall prophecy.

If you believe in all ther Bible, when are you going to address 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 9-10? Last time I checked, it was still in my Bible. Please! No more of that completely unrelated transfiguration stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with the epistles of John, or the salutations.

I won't comment on the rest of your diatribe.

Der Alte · Jun 5, 2005

Peterson said:
[SIZE=-1]The reason I addressed the fourth definition, is becasue it refers to the previous three, and the fifth. All are references to Jesus Christ.

The sixth definition of the Holy Spirit, if it refers to a third person, has no scriptural backing whatever. Jesus gave his disciples his spirit when he breathed on them (John 20:22).

Matthew 10:19-20; But when the deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20; For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.[/SIZE]

And John 20:22 and Matt 10:19-20 prove absolutely nothing about the separate and distinct self and mind of the Spirit spoken of by Jesus Himself. My post [Here]

"The sixth definition of the Holy Spirit, if it refers to a third person, has no scriptural backing whatever." Yeah right if you ignore my two posts,
[Here] and
[Here], as you continue to do.

[SIZE=-1]Luke 21:14-15; Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer; For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which for all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.[/size]

Does not mention, therefore proves absolutely nothing about, the Spirit.

[SIZE=-1]Acts 6:10; And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.[/size]

There is a rule of Greek grammar, when two or more nouns are joined by the copulative kai, i.e. "and," and all nouns have the definite articles, "the," they refer to separate persons or things. If it read, "the wisdom and Spirit," without the article, "the," before "spirit," then both wisdom and spirit would refer to the same person or thing. I posted links to several grammars, above, any time you are ready for some truth.

[SIZE=-1]Acts 2:17-18;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God [Father], I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh. 18; ... I will pour out in those days of my Spirit and they shall prophecy.[/size]

And that proves absolutely nothing about the separate and distinct self and mind of the Spirit spoken of by Jesus Himself. See my post, [Here]

[SIZE=-1]If you believe in all ther Bible, when are you going to address 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 9-10? Last time I checked, it was still in my Bible. Please! No more of that completely unrelated transfiguration stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with the epistles of John, or the salutations.[/size]

Since when do the epistles or salutations of John determine the Theology for the entire New Testament? You saying the Mount of Transfiguation is unrelated does not make it so.

I think I also posted about a dozen benedictions, including John, where only Jesus was mentioned. Did you ever address that? Since you are hung up on John's salutations, what about his benedictions?

I have addressed your two out-of-context proof texts several times. Here are a few. Now why don't you get busy and address maybe half the scripture I have posted?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15834089&postcount=401

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15108180&postcount=106

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15114884&postcount=110

[SIZE=-1]I won't comment on the rest of your diatribe.[/size]

So what else is new? You ignore over 90% of what I post, anyway, and post 1-2 proof texts that usually do not even address the topic, such as Luke 21:14-15, above.

Post listing 70 personal attributes of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14913632&postcount=104

Article which discusses the personality of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15644577#post15644577

Article with eighty passages which mention Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, including eleven passages which speak of a separate relationship, or influence by each, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15573157&postcount=50

Three articles scripturally discussing the personality of the HS.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15702615&postcount=145

Peterson · Jun 6, 2005

If Paul believed in the trinity, why did he acknowledge the Father and Son only? He never acknowleged it because he never heard of it from Christ. Nor did he ever have a revelation from a third person called the Holy Ghost.

Romans 1:7; To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

No mention of a trinity here.

1 Corinthians 1:3; Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

No trinity here.

2 Corinthians 1:2; Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3; Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.

No trinity here either, only Christ and the comforter, who is clearly defined as the Father (see Matthew 10:20).

Galatians 1:1; Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
V. 3; Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Still no third person.

Ephesians 1:2; Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. V. 3;Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.

No trinity even yet. Someone is being left out.

Philippeans 1:2; Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul still seems to be unaware of a trinity, or acknowledge one in his epistles.

Colossians 1:2; To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.V.3; We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you.

Paul doesn't thank a third person Holy Ghost.

1 Thessalonians 1:1; Paul and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you and peace, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I could continue on through the epistles, but this gives a very good indication that Paul never acknowledged a trinity or a third person Holy Ghost. The reason being, he believed in the Father and the Son only, and no one else as part of the Godhead.

Der Alte · Jun 7, 2005

peterson said:
[SIZE=-1]If Paul believed in the trinity, why did he acknowledge the Father and Son only? He never acknowleged it because he never heard of it from Christ. Nor did he ever have a revelation from a third person called the Holy Ghost.

No mention of a trinity here.

No trinity here.

2 Corinthians 1:2; 3; No trinity here either, only Christ and the comforter, who is clearly defined as the Father (see Matthew 10:20).

Still no third person.

No trinity even yet. Someone is being left out.

Paul still seems to be unaware of a trinity, or acknowledge one in his epistles.

Paul doesn't thank a third person Holy Ghost

I could continue on through the epistles, but this gives a very good indication that Paul never acknowledged a trinity or a third person Holy Ghost. The reason being, he believed in the Father and the Son only, and no one else as part of the Godhead.[/SIZE]

I hope, when you go to the Doctor, he doesnt read his medical texts the way you read the Bible. And when you take your car to the garage for repairs, I hope the mechanic doesnt read the shop manual the way you read your Bible, a piece here, and a piece there, little of this, little of that. You decide what you want to believe and search through the Bible for verses which appear to a support you, but anything that contradicts your presuppositions and assumptions you cant even see.

I posted an article [Here] which listed eighty (80) passages which do in fact speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, interacting, with each other. IGNORED! And I accidentally found another passage today.

But to address your blatantly false and horrendously out-of-context post above. You claimed, Paul still seems to be unaware of a trinity, or acknowledge one in his epistles. Here is Paul recognizing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, and each with a different attribute, gifts/Spirit, service/Lord, and working/God. Im not a rocket scientist but that looks like three to me.

I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

Paul again recognizing, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, and again each with a different attribute, Grace/Lord Jesus, love/God, and fellowship/Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13.14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

And Paul once again recognizing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, and again each with a different attribute; one body/one Spirit, one Lord/one faith, and one baptism/one God and Father.

Eph 4.4 There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called -- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There are several more by Paul but here is Peter also recognizing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, and each with a different attribute; foreknowledge/Father, sanctifying/Holy Spirit, and sprinkling blood/Jesus Christ. And OBTW this is a salutation since you are so hung up on Johns salutations.

1 Pet 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Peterson · Jun 7, 2005

I guess if I'm to understand more about God, I'm gong to have to read the comics.

Eph 4:4-6; One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all. This verse relates to the Father - period. It, by itself, disproves the trinity.

Seebok · Jun 7, 2005

Could someone explain to me why embrace of homeoousia is so important to the so-called Historical Christian? I mean, what does that get you except to provide a way to "physically" contrive monotheism. Isn't an embrace of the concept of "collective unity" a much more parsimonious way to arrive at monotheism? A perfect "collective unity" is a million times more mono than poly. But yet Creedal Christians feel an urgent need to go that last, entirely unnecessary, umbilical step. Or is it necessary? If you believe so, why?

thanks

seebok

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