WHAT IS HELL?

Ryoko Ozaki · Sep 29, 2003

MegOnFire05 said:
I think that some people just dont want to believe there is a hell bc they know that if there is one, they will go there... wake up and quit being in denial! there is a hell and its litterally what the bible says, not some form of symbolism or whatever.

I don't believe in hell as a place and it has nothing to do with me being in any type of denial. I don't believe in it all and know that if there was one I would not go there because I am one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. So in other words, think as you wish but the true reasons lie only within the minds of those that believe that they wish.

Havoc · Sep 29, 2003

MegOnFire05 said:
I think that some people just dont want to believe there is a hell bc they know that if there is one, they will go there... wake up and quit being in denial! there is a hell and its litterally what the bible says, not some form of symbolism or whatever.

And you can prove this?

No??

Ok surely you have some substantive evidence?

No???

Ok surely you have something other than an unproven book and some unverifiable beliefs?

No????

Must suk to be in such an embarrassing position.

Blessed-one · Sep 29, 2003

any more flaming will see this thread closed.

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.

radorth · Sep 29, 2003

Re: Annabell

Many choose to believe in a loving God...one that wouldn't create such an evil state as eternal torment.

And some choose to believe in a God who is both just and loving.

Re: Derek

Rad,

To be frank, I do not see them, or remember them, as "nasty" Christians. I remember many with genuine fondness.........my life has certainly never been the same since I "accepted Christ as my own personal saviour" (as the saying goes)

Just to clarify, it was the beginning of the end for any form of Fundamentalist belief ...................I have met this mentality in many forms since. It rears its head in Buddhism.

I spent many more years learning of the Christian Faith..........still often read the Bible......especially the gospels.......and certainly many of the great Christian mystics such as St John of the Cross and Meister Eckhart................"Dharma brothers" according to some Zen masters who recognise their "own"!

Your reference to the Buddha - and your implications - raises many issues concerning human suffering and how it can be resolved.............these are the issues that concern me, not in some academic sense, but because I have suffered - and do suffer. As we all suffer. Turn on the news and look..........I'm sure you do.

The important thing to me is to try to truly hear the voice of the "other"............not to live purely from our own "centre", from the dictate of our own self/ego...........Abba Matoes, one of the Desert Fathers said: "Those who live together with others ought not to be square, but round, in order to trun toward all". Trying to be "round" is a lifetimes work.

There is a story in the Buddhist tradition where the Buddha enters hell with a lamp. There are many languishing there in total darkness.........by the light of the lamp they begin to exclaim......."Ah! there are others here beside myself!"
To "see" the other, and hear them, is the beginning of wisdom..............(as well - of course - as "the fear of the Lord"!)

An excellent and thoughtful post. But I still believe you were reacting to a church which is not a reflection of Jesus. You imply that Christians cannot lose their narcissism under Christ- a common and false accusation sometimes made by Buddhists IMO. The teachings of such men as Nee and Chambers are certainly scriptural and well advocate for the freedom and power to be found in acceptance of personal insignificance.

It does not seem to me rational to follow one with the Buddha's credentials when you have Jesus and his gifts freely offered to you- even if the entire church doesn't really get it. You yourself admit you find the same fundy attitudes in Buddhists, so it's not like Buddhism is a cure all.

M. Scott Peck was a Buddhist before he decided he was just finding excuses to avoid Christ. He says that although he had read the Gospels before, at age forty, he ws suddenly struck by the profound reality of the person of Jesus. He decided the Baby had been thrown out with the dirty bathwater, and, to be frank here, I suspect that is what you have done.

We do not know our own hearts very well in any case. This I think is why it is so important to have the Holy Spirit to enlighten us. We are lost without that bright external light shining in our hearts, both to convict, and to empower.

You might want to read Peck's insightful rationale for converting in Further Along the Road Less Traveled, and see if you agree.

Rad

Tariki · Sep 30, 2003

radorth said:
Re: Derek

An excellent and thoughtful post. But I still believe you were reacting to a church which is not a reflection of Jesus. You imply that Christians cannot lose their narcissism under Christ- a common and false accusation sometimes made by Buddhists IMO. The teachings of such men as Nee and Chambers are certainly scriptural and well advocate for the freedom and power to be found in acceptance of personal insignificance.

It does not seem to me rational to follow one with the Buddha's credentials when you have Jesus and his gifts freely offered to you- even if the entire church doesn't really get it. You yourself admit you find the same fundy attitudes in Buddhists, so it's not like Buddhism is a cure all.

M. Scott Peck was a Buddhist before he decided he was just finding excuses to avoid Christ. He says that although he had read the Gospels before, at age forty, he ws suddenly struck by the profound reality of the person of Jesus. He decided the Baby had been thrown out with the dirty bathwater, and, to be frank here, I suspect that is what you have done.

We do not know our own hearts very well in any case. This I think is why it is so important to have the Holy Spirit to enlighten us. We are lost without that bright external light shining in our hearts, both to convict, and to empower.

You might want to read Peck's insightful rationale for converting in Further Along the Road Less Traveled, and see if you agree.

Rad

rad,

Thanks for your response.

"We do not know our own hearts very well in any case." Very true, and one of the cornerstones of my own thinking - such as it is! - over the past thirty odd years............perhaps why I have always valued the words of St John of the Cross.........."If we wish to be sure of the road we walk on, we must close our eyes and tread in the dark".........(from a Buddhist perspective "monkey mind" is a great problem!) This is one of the reasons why I have moved over to Shin - Pure Land - Buddhism.

As far as my implying that Christians cannot lose their narcissism under Christ.................I intended to imply no such thing and I'm sorry if I did.............( In slightly different contexts I have argued against any such thing on many Buddhist forums.........where I earned the title "our resident Buddhist/Christian"!)

As far as your own "hound of heaven" angle.................when a fundamentalist mindset is left behind.......(and I have no time at the moment to develope the various and profound Buddhist teachings that aid in this)...........we leave behind "either/or"...............I would just say that for me the "Holy Spirit" blows where it will...........and not within the parameters set by Christian theology or Christian judgements.

I may say more another time, but must dash!

Anyway, thanks again for some genuine dialogue, which I appreciate.

Derek

radorth · Sep 30, 2003

Well I'm sure if your heart is pure about this, the Spirit will will to blow through each corner of your heart. (And I do not imply mine is always as receptive as it might be). I don't know if you ran across my outtake of Masefield's marvelous Everlasting Mercy on another thread, but I repeat it here as I think you will appreciate it.

I DID not think, I did not strive,
The deep peace burnt my me alive;
The bolted door had broken in,
I knew that I had done with sin.
I knew that Christ had given me birth
To brother all the souls on earth,
And every bird and every beast
Should share the crumbs broke at the feast.

O glory of the lighted mind.
How dead Id been, how dumb, how blind.
The station brook, to my new eyes,
Was babbling out of Paradise,
The waters rushing from the rain
Were singing Christ has risen again.
I thought all earthly creatures knelt
From rapture of the joy I felt.
The narrow station-walls brick ledge,
The wild hop withering in the hedge,
The lights in huntsmans upper story
Were parts of an eternal glory,
Were Gods eternal garden flowers.
I stood in bliss at this for hours.

Rad

(More can be found on Bartleby.com for those interested)

Havoc · Sep 30, 2003

My heart is pure about this, and yet the poem had no effect on me at all.

Smilin · Sep 30, 2003

MegOnFire05 said:
I think that some people just dont want to believe there is a hell bc they know that if there is one, they will go there... wake up and quit being in denial! there is a hell and its litterally what the bible says, not some form of symbolism or whatever.

Actually,
Some refuse to accept the notion of 'eternal damnation'
earlier religious leaders incorporated into their religious
teachings to instill fear into their followers and guarantee
their positions of authority.

Smilin · Sep 30, 2003

Havoc said:
My heart is pure about this, and yet the poem had no effect on me at all.

My heart is full of flowing blood and never missed a beat
either... :wave:

Smilin · Sep 30, 2003

patrice_kell said:
I am sure that there is a Hell but I don't know were or what it consists of, all I know is that I don't want to go there and I am not going to go there. I want to go to heaven so that is what I strive for.

Yes, and I know their are deserts as well. I spent over
a year and a half in one. I NEVER want to see another
desert again and I'm NOT going (willfully) ever again.
The serenity of the mountains is what I prefer and
strive for.

vajradhara · Sep 30, 2003

harold800 said:
Have I got any examples of it. Yes! I have treated more than ten thousand people who weep and wail and gnash their teeth and burn with unquenchable desire. And, I've been there myself. But I'm out. And I learned how to get out. It is through the law of transformation. Would you like to know more.

Did you see the movie Starship Troopers? They use that line in their commericals... "would you like to know more?" and then you can join the military and become a citizen and fight the stinkin' bugs!

vajradhara · Sep 30, 2003

Ryoko Ozaki said:
Well I didn't send you anything so I suppose I'm okay. lol However, how exactly were they "confused" and "disconnected"? Just curious to if you meant that you were confusing them or if you think non-christians are confused for some odd reason.

Namaste Ryoko,

he must have "subscribed" to the thread... so every post gets mailed to him as well as posted here.

he could, of course, choose "no subscription" and then read what he wants...

though i did like the dismissive condemnation.. it was more original than most

Ryoko Ozaki · Sep 30, 2003

"If we wish to be sure of the road we walk on, we must close our eyes and tread in the dark".........(from a Buddhist perspective "monkey mind" is a great problem!) This is one of the reasons why I have moved over to Shin - Pure Land - Buddhism.

Nice statement if I do say so. I moved to Buddhism because I agree with the teachings and especially the four Noble Truths.

Radorth, I'm not sure of the purpose of that poem other than to express your liking of Christianity. That's the only thing I pulled from it, so if it was supposed to mean more it didn't. However, you expressed yourself well in it.

godsprincess4eva · Sep 30, 2003

HELL definetly exists!! Jesus and GOD himself pointed it out many times in the bible. I guess if you do not believe in Hell then you don't believe in Heaven, so if you do not believe the Bible, then I guess it really doesn't matter to you. But the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in it. So I guess for all the non-believers the only other place for you is Hell.
GOOD LUCK!!

daughter of the king · Sep 30, 2003

hell is eternal seperation for christ and eternal tormenting wif the devil....nothing more nothing less.

vajradhara · Sep 30, 2003

godsprincess4eva said:
HELL definetly exists!! Jesus and GOD himself pointed it out many times in the bible. I guess if you do not believe in Hell then you don't believe in Heaven, so if you do not believe the Bible, then I guess it really doesn't matter to you. But the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in it. So I guess for all the non-believers the only other place for you is Hell.
GOOD LUCK!!

close....

if you don't believe in the Bible you won't believe in heaven or hell (of the Christian flavor.. you may believe it in terms of Islam or Bahai and such forth)

let's look at your sentence here...

if you don't believe in hell you don't believe in heaven (good so far), so if you do not believe in the bible (at this point, we've shifted from Heaven/Hell which are found in several traditions to a Christian only version), then it doesn't really matter (absolutely correct). but, the only way to heaven is to believe in it. (agreed!) so i guess for all the non-believers, the only other place for you is hell (ah.. here's where this is incorrect. since the non-believer doesn't believe in the bible, they don't believe in heaven or hell either, make sense?)

Havoc · Sep 30, 2003

godsprincess4eva said:
HELL definetly exists!! Jesus and GOD himself pointed it out many times in the bible. I guess if you do not believe in Hell then you don't believe in Heaven, so if you do not believe the Bible, then I guess it really doesn't matter to you. But the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in it. So I guess for all the non-believers the only other place for you is Hell.
GOOD LUCK!!

Fallacy of False Dichotomy

Smilin · Sep 30, 2003

Havoc said:
Fallacy of False Dichotomy

See you at the 'Great Weiner Roast'...

Ryoko Ozaki · Sep 30, 2003

godsprincess4eva said:
HELL definetly exists!! Jesus and GOD himself pointed it out many times in the bible. I guess if you do not believe in Hell then you don't believe in Heaven, so if you do not believe the Bible, then I guess it really doesn't matter to you. But the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in it. So I guess for all the non-believers the only other place for you is Hell.
GOOD LUCK!!

Heh. Since I don't believe in the bible/hell/heaven I'm not worried about going to hell so it doesn't phase me to say that I'll be going there. It's like saying to me that you'll be going to the Walmart across the street and since I live out in the country area with no street or stores I won't have to worry about going there since it doesn't exist.

Tariki · Oct 1, 2003

radorth said:
Well I'm sure if your heart is pure about this, the Spirit will will to blow through each corner of your heart. (And I do not imply mine is always as receptive as it might be). I don't know if you ran across my outtake of Masefield's marvelous Everlasting Mercy on another thread, but I repeat it here as I think you will appreciate it.

I DID not think, I did not strive,
The deep peace burnt my me alive;
The bolted door had broken in,
I knew that I had done with sin.
I knew that Christ had given me birth
To brother all the souls on earth,
And every bird and every beast
Should share the crumbs broke at the feast.

O glory of the lighted mind.
How dead Id been, how dumb, how blind.
The station brook, to my new eyes,
Was babbling out of Paradise,
The waters rushing from the rain
Were singing Christ has risen again.
I thought all earthly creatures knelt
From rapture of the joy I felt.
The narrow station-walls brick ledge,
The wild hop withering in the hedge,
The lights in huntsmans upper story
Were parts of an eternal glory,
Were Gods eternal garden flowers.
I stood in bliss at this for hours.

Rad

(More can be found on Bartleby.com for those interested)

Rad, thanks for the poetry............I did read it before when you posted it on another thread, I can't now remember where. Anyway, I did post a little verse of my own - which your own poem suggested - dedicated to you there, you must have missed it!

St John of the Cross again....

"I abandoned and forgot myself
Laying my face on my beloved;
All things ceased; I went out from myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies"

As far as my heart being pure.............Honen, one of the "founding fathers" of Pure Land Buddhism, said......"In the path of Sages one perfects wisdom and achieves enlightenment; in the path of Pure Land one returns to the foolish self to be saved by Amida". Personally, I'd be worried if I was relying upon "purity of heart".

Pure Land is the Buddhist way of Other Power/Faith/Grace.................I would have to tell my life story to say why I find this way better for me than any Christian way.............I would just say here that it part of Pure Land teaching that it's way is not for everyone, and it respects the path of the Sages........"The Pure Land way is easy, but few there be who take it"

Thanks
Derek

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