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WHAT IS HELL?
- Thread starter Teddybear
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Smilin
Spirit of the Wolf
- Jun 18, 2002
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With a newborn, I'm sure you're sleep-deprived.Rae said:I guess I can do that. Where does she live now?
We are talking Sleeping Beauty, right? Good. Finally I can get some rest.
Been there, done that...3 times.
An ancient blessing for you to counter the pain I sensed
in your post...
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He put me back together
Official Hog washer
oooooookayyyyyyy there seems to be a good bit of bottled up anger here 
so I'll just skip all that bickering and respond to the first entry. The first thing you must understand is that the word "hell" is an English word. It is not particularly the same as what it represents from the original texts of the scriptures at all times, but it does make a fairly decent discription of one of the two ideas that it represents. The English word in this context pertains to a prision, usually underground, much like a dungeon. The word has come to refer to flames, screaming, and horned man-goat children of Pan through the centuries as it became a religious/superstitious word.
The problem is that, in most of our translations, two different ideas are translated as being the same, when they are not. The first of the two, obviously thought to be in process as we speak (from reading the scriptures) is the grave--Sheoul in OT Hebrew, Hades in NT Greek. The grave is the first death, and is probably where this business of a prison comes from. And the grave is a prison, though I personally don't think that any being is actively holding anyone in a particular "place" per se, while all that is arguable. Rather, it's more of a state of being which is a prison of itself. From experience as well as study, I personally believe, with the best understanding I can muster, it is a state of existing without any input--darkness, silence, and suffering. There is no screaming as we know it--screaming as we know it involves lungs, vocal chords, and other flesh. Rather, every fiber of what you are is writhing in silence. There is some argument to be made in opposition to this view, however, pertaining to Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. I think any vision into the spiritual realm is symbolic, but even in that light the story pertains to arguable qualities (and is the only time when the Bible ever mentions a flame involving the grave). More importantly, take notice of "Abraham's Bosom," which is a state of comfort in the grave.
The second idea that is translated as "hell" in the scriptures is Gehenna. Gehenna is the second death. From our perspective, Gehenna doesn't exist yet. Gehenna is "the lake of fire" seen in Revelation--a metaphor with its parallels in Old Jerusalem and the Valley of Hinnon. Outside old Jerusalem a garbage heap burned day and night, probably not ever going out as long as Jerusalem stood. If I'm not mistaken, the bodies of criminals and the poor were burned there as well--but on that I could be wrong, especially concerning the entirety of Israel's history. At any rate, Gehenna is where the idea of fire comes from, but fire is not the only metaphor for the second death--Jesus refered to "outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This darkness is in reference to the second death, because whenever he mentioned it, the marriage supper was also occuring at the same time.
At any length, it is important to note, I think, that in these metaphors God is NOT actively torturing anyone. Rather, they are states of being, which themselves are torment. In Christian theology, God is love and God is life. To reject God is to reject life. To reject life is to die. Existing without life, without God, is torment. The destruction that we see in Revelation 21 is not a malicious God getting off on the torture of others, but rather the destruction of those who reject life, and reject life twice--first in the garden, and then with the rejection of what Christ did to save us from death and bring us into life again. The slogan of Christianity is not "Do what I say, or you'll be sorry!" but rather "Please choose me, and not death. I love you, and I want you to live. I plead with you--I die for you. Come and love me as I love you."
so I'll just skip all that bickering and respond to the first entry. The first thing you must understand is that the word "hell" is an English word. It is not particularly the same as what it represents from the original texts of the scriptures at all times, but it does make a fairly decent discription of one of the two ideas that it represents. The English word in this context pertains to a prision, usually underground, much like a dungeon. The word has come to refer to flames, screaming, and horned man-goat children of Pan through the centuries as it became a religious/superstitious word.The problem is that, in most of our translations, two different ideas are translated as being the same, when they are not. The first of the two, obviously thought to be in process as we speak (from reading the scriptures) is the grave--Sheoul in OT Hebrew, Hades in NT Greek. The grave is the first death, and is probably where this business of a prison comes from. And the grave is a prison, though I personally don't think that any being is actively holding anyone in a particular "place" per se, while all that is arguable. Rather, it's more of a state of being which is a prison of itself. From experience as well as study, I personally believe, with the best understanding I can muster, it is a state of existing without any input--darkness, silence, and suffering. There is no screaming as we know it--screaming as we know it involves lungs, vocal chords, and other flesh. Rather, every fiber of what you are is writhing in silence. There is some argument to be made in opposition to this view, however, pertaining to Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. I think any vision into the spiritual realm is symbolic, but even in that light the story pertains to arguable qualities (and is the only time when the Bible ever mentions a flame involving the grave). More importantly, take notice of "Abraham's Bosom," which is a state of comfort in the grave.
The second idea that is translated as "hell" in the scriptures is Gehenna. Gehenna is the second death. From our perspective, Gehenna doesn't exist yet. Gehenna is "the lake of fire" seen in Revelation--a metaphor with its parallels in Old Jerusalem and the Valley of Hinnon. Outside old Jerusalem a garbage heap burned day and night, probably not ever going out as long as Jerusalem stood. If I'm not mistaken, the bodies of criminals and the poor were burned there as well--but on that I could be wrong, especially concerning the entirety of Israel's history. At any rate, Gehenna is where the idea of fire comes from, but fire is not the only metaphor for the second death--Jesus refered to "outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This darkness is in reference to the second death, because whenever he mentioned it, the marriage supper was also occuring at the same time.
At any length, it is important to note, I think, that in these metaphors God is NOT actively torturing anyone. Rather, they are states of being, which themselves are torment. In Christian theology, God is love and God is life. To reject God is to reject life. To reject life is to die. Existing without life, without God, is torment. The destruction that we see in Revelation 21 is not a malicious God getting off on the torture of others, but rather the destruction of those who reject life, and reject life twice--first in the garden, and then with the rejection of what Christ did to save us from death and bring us into life again. The slogan of Christianity is not "Do what I say, or you'll be sorry!" but rather "Please choose me, and not death. I love you, and I want you to live. I plead with you--I die for you. Come and love me as I love you."
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Hell is my homework.
*She was in a bad mood. The day had been lousy and she wanted peace. Suddenly it began to rain. At first it made her mad. But then she lowered her umbrella and began to dance. She splashed in puddles and twirled around... maybe today wasn't
too bad after all......*
*She was in a bad mood. The day had been lousy and she wanted peace. Suddenly it began to rain. At first it made her mad. But then she lowered her umbrella and began to dance. She splashed in puddles and twirled around... maybe today wasn't
too bad after all......*
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Here is a simplified study into "hell"
If you die in the condition where you reject God then he honours your right and gives you a place where there is no godliness whatsoever. Yes this is "sheol" also known as hell. Finally when all things of this realm will come to an end those in sheol will come face to face with their creator (The Great White Throne Judgement) Now if there is no desire to spend eternity in the presence of God what other option is there other then to spend eternity with likeminded people and all the fallen angels (demons) - This is the nature of "gehenna" and it sure dont sound like a picnic to me !!!
If you die in the condition where you reject God then he honours your right and gives you a place where there is no godliness whatsoever. Yes this is "sheol" also known as hell. Finally when all things of this realm will come to an end those in sheol will come face to face with their creator (The Great White Throne Judgement) Now if there is no desire to spend eternity in the presence of God what other option is there other then to spend eternity with likeminded people and all the fallen angels (demons) - This is the nature of "gehenna" and it sure dont sound like a picnic to me !!!
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Rae
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An ancient blessing for you to counter the pain I sensed
in your post...
--I know, hon. Then I took it and made it even more of a blessing by converting it to laughter. Laughing heals enormous amounts of pain, I find.
in your post...
--I know, hon. Then I took it and made it even more of a blessing by converting it to laughter. Laughing heals enormous amounts of pain, I find.
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Rae
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If you die in the condition where you reject God
--And there's where you go wrong, assuming someone like me who honestly disbelieves in any deity who would torture/"allow" someone to be tortured is "rejecting God." I don't think that God exists. I can only reject what I think exists. So according to your definition, even if you're right and I'm wrong (which I don't think is the case), I'm not going to hell.
--And there's where you go wrong, assuming someone like me who honestly disbelieves in any deity who would torture/"allow" someone to be tortured is "rejecting God." I don't think that God exists. I can only reject what I think exists. So according to your definition, even if you're right and I'm wrong (which I don't think is the case), I'm not going to hell.
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T
Tariki
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Isaiah,Isaiah 53 said:
Despite your opening sentence you seem unable to actually understand the confusion of "truth/reality" with personal "belief". To feel totally, subjectively certain is not necessarily to be right.......the simple fact that there are many in our world as equally certain as you, and that you all believe in mutually contradictory things, proves this. However, I can understand that you feel duty bound to speak as you have found and understand, and I repsect you for that.
For me, it is in facing our own vulnerability and the possibility of our own error that opens the way of true grace. For all I know you know the truth, and the truth has set you free.........for all I know, you experience the peace that passeth understanding...........I have only words on a computer screen.
However, I can only put my own view forward. A Buddhist seeks to understand the First Truth, the truth of suffering.........the Pure Land path to this is to realize ourselves as foolish beings bound by our karmic limitations. Foolish because we are imperfect, limited, fallible, vulnerable, fragile, and mortal. (Unno) This is Deep Hearing which opens the heart to true entrusting and compassion.
The Buddhist writer Jack Kornfield........."Underneath all the wanting and grasping, underneath the need to understand, is what we have called 'the body of fear'. At the root of suffering is a small heart, frightened to be here, afraid to trust the river of change, to let go in this changing world. This small unopened heart grasps and needs and struggles to control what is unpredictable and unpossessable. But we can never know what will happen. With wisdom we allow this not knowing to become a form of trust.............Wisdom is not information, but an abiding presence, an intuitive, sensing opening of the body and heart. In wisdom the body of fear drops away and out heart comes to rest. Like love, wisdom needs no explanation."
To be honest, my heart has not yet come to rest - although I do have my moments! - but I would rather live with my own vulnerability than rest in "certainties" that I have no way of truly justifying.
Thanks
Derek
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Tariki
When God in the form of Jesus Christ stands before you and shows you His nail scarred hands you and Buddha both will know the truth
When God in the form of Jesus Christ stands before you and shows you His nail scarred hands you and Buddha both will know the truth
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T
Tariki
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TasManofGod,TasManOfGod said:
Thanks for your comment.....and opinion........and statement of belief. My opinion is that it avoids every word I wrote and therefore, as written, contains no sign of any capacity for self-judgement or wish for genuine dialogue. I find the constant preference for "confrontation" on theses forums, rather than dialogue, sad and regretable.
"True communication on the deepest level is more than a simple sharing of ideas, conceptual knowledge, or formulated truth...............at the deepest level true communication is communion. It is wordless, it is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity. We discover an older unity. My dear brothers and sisters, we are already one. But we imagine we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are." (The words of Thomas Merton, Catholic monk, whose deep and profound knowledge and appreciation of the Buddhist Faith, showing the depth of the possibilities involved, is an inspiration to me)
Anyway, I respect your Faith and I wish you well.
Thanks
Derek
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Rae
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Yes, I often use humor as a weapon, for it is the one that makes everyone feel good.
-- Humor can also say important, big, normally "threatening" things, but take the edge off and remind us all that we're here to help each other.
--
Humor can also say important, big, normally "threatening" things, but take the edge off and remind us all that we're here to help each other.
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I agree Rae.
Tariki, you have posted more great quotes as usual. I love the one by Thomas Merton the best, but Jack Kornfield's was also great.
Tariki, you have posted more great quotes as usual.
I love the one by Thomas Merton the best, but Jack Kornfield's was also great.
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Interesting religious rhetoric.TasManOfGod said:
What reason have any of us to believe that your picture will actually happen?
The fact that you believe it will really isn't a good reason.
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"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends"
This is a quote by a man named Jesus Christ.
Blessing
Tas
This is a quote by a man named Jesus Christ.
Blessing
Tas
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Light Keeper
Blessed of God. Halleluja
A few minutes before the church services started, the townspeople were sitting in their pews and talking. Suddenly, Satan appeared at the front of the church. Everyone started screaming and running for the front entrance, trampling each other in a frantic effort to get
away from evil incarnate.
Soon everyone had exited the church except for one elderly
gentleman who sat calmly in his pew without moving, seeming oblivious to the fact that God's ultimate enemy was in his presence.
So Satan walked up to the old man and said; "Don't you know who I am?"
The man replied, "Yep, sure do."
"Aren't you afraid of me?" Satan asked.
"Nope, sure ain't." said the man.
"Don't you realize I can kill you with a word?" asked Satan.
"Don't doubt it for a minute," returned the old man, in an eventone.
"Did you know that I could cause you profound, horrifying, AGONY for all eternity?" persisted Satan.
"Yep," was the calm reply.
"And you're still not afraid?" asked Satan. "Nope," said the old man.
More than a little perturbed, Satan asked, "Well, why aren't you afraid of me?"
The man calmly replied, "Been married to your sister for 48 years."
--Found circulating the Internet
HELL is NO laughing matter!!!
HELL is for ALL who reject Gods LOVE!
Even "CHRISTIANS" must get it right or they face the possibility of hearing Jesus say I know you not on the day of judgement.
BE BORN AGAIN AND KNOW THE REASSURANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
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