Jesus did not do away with the law in Mat 5:17

[SabbathBlessings]

The law is not of faith

The law is against the very factual lawlessness in everyone.

And thank God He is against such things

We can be "for" and "in behalf" of the law, even when it's against us.

It's upheld precisely to be against us

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Jesus said:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit is against the law of God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And how does Jesus teach it?

Quite the opposite, it is the adversary who before mankind disobeyed God and just like in the Garden wants to teach man to do the same.

There is no where in the bible that teaches that Messiah redeems us from the Law of God/Jesus.



Those who do not want to follow God's Holy Commandments are anti-nomian.

The lawlessness in everyone is anti-nominian

Let's suppose the law is against the sins of the devils, who will never obey it or concede to it, that it is validly against THEM.

Now the law is our Ally, being against THEM, and is upheld for that reason

We don't uphold the law to prove we're legally obedient because that can't happen

The evil within no one is ever legally obedient

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Jesus said:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit is against the law of God.

We've already been through this drill many times

I uphold the law to be against the evil in my own heart, and am very glad it is so

You on the other hand deny you have any such things in you. Which doesn't cut it

Jesus was very clear that evil comes from within

Pharisees wrongly thought they were legally obedient too

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We've already been through this drill many times

I uphold the law to be against the evil in my own heart, and am very glad it is so

You on the other hand deny you have any such things in you. Which doesn't cut it

Jesus was very clear that evil comes from within

Pharisees wrongly thought they were legally obedient too

Its Jesus who is God that said John14:15-18 not the Pharisees. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for keeping their man-made laws/traditions over obedience to the commandments of God. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 You can't change what Jesus said plainly. You can but we are warned Pro30:6

We can either be like the Pharisees and keep our own rules, or be a child of God and obey Him through faith and love. Luke 6:46 John14:15 Exo20:6 1John5:3 Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16 one reconciles us Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 the other does not Mat7:23 1 John2:4 Rev22:15

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Its Jesus who is God that said John14:15-18 not the Pharisees. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for keeping their man-made laws/traditions over obedience to the commandments of God. Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

Jesus condemned children of the DEVIL in them, John 8:44

Your position doesn't account for the unseen adversaries with those people.

Yet Jesus showed us this fact many times in many ways. Devils, the tempter, operate within

You can't change what Jesus said plainly. You can but we are warned Pro30:6

Again, your position only sees people. It's a common lack of insight.

We can either be like the Pharisees and keep our own rules, or be a child of God

It was never an either or position to start with. You just again miss the obvious but unseen other parties and see only people.

Jesus did not see that way

and obey Him through faith and love.

The evil within no one obeys.

Luke 6:46 John14:15 Exo20:6 1John5:3 Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16 one reconciles us Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 the other does not Mat7:23 1 John2:4 Rev22:15

Jesus did not say Mark 7:21-23 was optional. It's a hard line fact

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus condemned children of the DEVIL in them, John 8:44

Your position doesn't account for the unseen adversaries with those people.

Yet Jesus showed us this fact many times in many ways. Devils, the tempter, operate within


Again, your position only sees people. It's a common lack of insight.

It was never an either or position to start with. You just again miss the obvious but unseen other parties and see only people.

Jesus did not see that way

The evil within no one obeys.

Jesus did not say Mark 7:21-23 was optional. It's a hard line fact

Actually its the opposite.

The position of God is that we do not sin 1 John 2:1-6 (break God's law) but if we love Him, we will keep His commandments John14:15 which He provides the Holy Spirit of Truth that enables us to do so. John14:15-18

On the flip side, those who keep sinning, without seeking the help of God to forsake Pro28:13 which means turn from sin, walk in Christ without sin, those are people who do not serve God, but the other spirit behind all sin and lies John8:44 1 John3:8

One path leads to righteousness, the other path leads to death Rom6:16

Its two powers, we either serve God and that is shown through our obedience to Him John14:15 Luke6:46 Rev 14:12 or we worship Him in vain laying aside the commandments of God serving sin Mark7:7-13 and another master. 1John3:8

Jesus came to free us from the bondage sin, why God's commandments are the law of liberty James2:11-12 but sadly many love their sins more than their love for Jesus to seek His help in overcoming. John 3:19-21

 

[Studyman]

The law is not of faith

What "LAW" is not of Faith? If God tells me, a thief, "Do not steal" or a man that hates my brother, "do not hate your brother in your heart" or a man whose most precious treasured possession is my son, "take your only son and sacrifice him to me", and I repent of "MY" way, and I deny myself, rule over my flesh, refuse to let sin, (rejection or transgression of God's commandments) reign in my mortal body, and become a "Doer" of God's sayings and not a hearer only, that is God's Very definition of Faith, according to the Bible.

But Israel completely rejected this God, they were "children in whom was no Faith", they created their own god and said, "This is the god that led us out of sin", even after God Commanded them, "Thou shall not" engage in such behavior. But they became like the world of Noah's time, like "Sodom and Gomorrah". So God considered wiping them all out, and making a great nation out of Moses, but HE relented and showed mercy on the Children of Israel. And allowed Moses to go up a second time to secure again, the covenant they broke. Only this Time God "ADDED" a LAW that wasn't given to them in the the day they left Egypt. He "ADDED" a "LAW" that Abraham didn't have.

In this "LAW", when a man transgressed God's commandments, this man was required to take a goat of certain age and gender, of certain condition, and kill it before a Levite Priest who would take the Blood of the sacrifice and perform priesthood duties, to provide for the forgiveness of sins.

This "law" was to be in place until the true "Lamb of God", which Abraham understood, came and provided for their atonement Himself.

Gen. 22: 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The Pharisees who had taken over the City of David, and Solomons Temple, didn't believe Moses. They rejected God's commandments and went about establishing their own righteousness. They didn't believe Jesus was "This Lamb" prophesied by the Prophets since before Abraham. So they were still requiring a corrupted version of this "LAW" before justification/remission of sins could be provided for. Abraham knew and understood his sins were covered by this "Christ". Caleb, Shadrack, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, all lived by "Faith" as defined by God through Abraham. But the Pharisees were still promoting justification by "Works of the Temporary Law", that was to lead them, if they had the faith of Abraham, to their true High Priest, and the True Lamb of God.

Men could see this more clearly if they believed all that was written in the Law and Prophets as Paul did. Read Is. chapter 1. This is the perfect representation of the mainstream religions of the world Paul was placed in.

These men who "professed to know God" rejected His Judgments and created their own, rejected God's Feasts, and created their own high days. They full well rejected the commandments of God that they might live by their own religious traditions. God likened them to Sodom and Gomorrah.

And yet every week they would gather together unto Him and offer to Him for their willful rejection of His instruction, the blood of an innocent, righteous, unblemished being, as per the LAW, for justification.

In other words, these men would reject God's Commandments and judgments, knowing full well what He commanded them, just as those who built the golden calf. But they interpreted this "ADDED" Law as a means of Justification, instead of repentance and obedience as they were created of. As God told Saul, "To obey is better than sacrifice".

Faith in God, "is obedience" to God. As it is written, Anyone who says they have faith in God, and are rejecting His Commandments is a Liar, and the Truth is not in Him.

Abraham and His children were blessed, not because they "heard" God's Laws, but because, as Paul teaches, they were "Doers" of God's Laws, as it is written: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Sodom heard God's Laws, but were not "doers". The children of Israel who fell in the wilderness "heard" God's Laws, but were not "doers". The Wicked Kings of Israel "heard God's Laws", but were not "doers".

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers" of the law "shall be justified".

Ananias, with Sapphira his wife were "hearers" of God's Laws, not "doers".

Eve was a "hearer" of God's Laws, not a "doer".

Men of true Faith have always been "Doers" of God's Laws, not hearers only. Those Christians in Matthew 7:22,23, were "Hearers" of God's Laws, not "doers" like those whose house will Stand.

From the very beginning the prince of this world has promoted the philosophy that God's Laws are "Against" men.

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (reject God's Commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and (then) ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the philosophy of the prince of this world, that as long as man "Yields themselves" servants to obey God, they will remain blind and Ignorant.

My friends, listen to the Jesus "of the bible" and "live by", not by the traditions, high days and philosophies of this world's popular religious sects and businesses, but by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Live by Faith in God, like His Only begotten Son, and "Every Example" of Faithful man did. Glorify Him by honoring Him with more than your lips. Yes, it will bring divisions in your life. Yes, you will have internal battles. Yes, the religions of this world will shun, ridicule and cast you out. But in the end the truly Faithful will be told, "well done, good and faithful servant.

 

[fhansen]

Righteousness/obedience of God's will is still required under the new covenant.

But we either obey by the Letter, which is me faking righteousness, or we obey by the Spirit, which is me now together with God doing it the right way. That's the difference between the old and new: "Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5. That's what reconciliation between man and God is all about. Union with God is the basis of holiness for man while disunion from Him, Adam's way, is the basis of man's unholiness.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

What "LAW" is not of Faith?

Nope.

Galatians 3:12

And the law is not of faith -

If God tells me, a thief, "Do not steal" or a man that hates my brother, "do not hate your brother in your heart" or a man whose most precious treasured possession is my son, "take your only son and sacrifice him to me", and I repent of "MY" way, and I deny myself, rule over my flesh, refuse to let sin, (rejection or transgression of God's commandments) reign in my mortal body, and become a "Doer" of God's sayings and not a hearer only, that is God's Very definition of Faith, according to the Bible.

IF that's all that transpired within you'd have a point.

But sin that dwells in "everyone" will produce resisting evil thoughts in everyone. Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:7-13, and as Jesus stated, these are what defile us all. The thoughts are not "optional."

Paul discovered that even when he did good, evil was still present with him. Romans 7:17-21

It's a fairly easy conclusion to come to if we're honest with ourselves.

It also makes it easier for us to see who isn't.

But Israel completely rejected this God, they were "children in whom was no Faith", they created their own god and said, "This is the god that led us out of sin", even after God Commanded them, "Thou shall not" engage in such behavior. But they became like the world of Noah's time, like "Sodom and Gomorrah". So God considered wiping them all out, and making a great nation out of Moses, but HE relented and showed mercy on the Children of Israel. And allowed Moses to go up a second time to secure again, the covenant they broke. Only this Time God "ADDED" a LAW that wasn't given to them in the the day they left Egypt. He "ADDED" a "LAW" that Abraham didn't have.

Well, that's a nice story but it's really not an accurate picture. Why? Because the people of Israel were not just people. They, like us, dealt with the exact same problem, and that is "internal evil" courtesy of the TEMPTER.

So where you see just Israel in disobedience, we should see that they had:

A spirit of slumber put upon them, by God no less: Romans 11:8
Satan entered their hearts to steal the Word from them: Mark 4:15
And their sin, just like ours, is in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Jesus showed us all that devils resided in "people." It is quite pointless to leave those parties out of our equations when discussing sin as they are the fulcrum of it all, and by God's Design.

In this "LAW", when a man transgressed God's commandments, this man was required to take a goat of certain age and gender, of certain condition, and kill it before a Levite Priest who would take the Blood of the sacrifice and perform priesthood duties, to provide for the forgiveness of sins.

This "law" was to be in place until the true "Lamb of God", which Abraham understood, came and provided for their atonement Himself.

And again, you miss the point. You only see people in these equations.

The "goat" is actually an allegory or similitude of the DEVIL. And there are more interesting technical matters attached to the above procedures as well. But all largely symbolic or allegorical, as you kind of note.

Gen. 22: 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The Pharisees who had taken over the City of David, and Solomons Temple, didn't believe Moses. They rejected God's commandments and went about establishing their own righteousness. They didn't believe Jesus was "This Lamb" prophesied by the Prophets since before Abraham. So they were still requiring a corrupted version of this "LAW" before justification/remission of sins could be provided for. Abraham knew and understood his sins were covered by this "Christ". Caleb, Shadrack, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, all lived by "Faith" as defined by God through Abraham. But the Pharisees were still promoting justification by "Works of the Temporary Law", that was to lead them, if they had the faith of Abraham, to their true High Priest, and the True Lamb of God.

Again, these types of positions have a very basic failure of perceptions.

We do have a very real but invisible ENEMY that we engage, internally, called the tempter or his own, that is not the people.

Men could see this more clearly if they believed all that was written in the Law and Prophets as Paul did. Read Is. chapter 1. This is the perfect representation of the mainstream religions of the world Paul was placed in.

Uh, no. That isn't the case and can't be the case because there's more than "just men" involved.

The law actually gives power to the adversary: Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, the "strength of sin is the LAW."

Why is that? Because sin rises up and RESISTS the law IN people. Anyone can actually perceive this by their own resisting evil thoughts to the law.

And those who claim otherwise are aka hypocrites. Liars even. And we really don't want to get caught in that trap, do we?

These men who "professed to know God" rejected His Judgments and created their own, rejected God's Feasts, and created their own high days. They full well rejected the commandments of God that they might live by their own religious traditions. God likened them to Sodom and Gomorrah.

And yet every week they would gather together unto Him and offer to Him for their willful rejection of His instruction, the blood of an innocent, righteous, unblemished being, as per the LAW, for justification.

In other words, these men would reject God's Commandments and judgments, knowing full well what He commanded them, just as those who built the golden calf. But they interpreted this "ADDED" Law as a means of Justification, instead of repentance and obedience as they were created of. As God told Saul, "To obey is better than sacrifice".

Faith in God, "is obedience" to God. As it is written, Anyone who says they have faith in God, and are rejecting His Commandments is a Liar, and the Truth is not in Him.

Abraham and His children were blessed, not because they "heard" God's Laws, but because, as Paul teaches, they were "Doers" of God's Laws, as it is written: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Sodom heard God's Laws, but were not "doers". The children of Israel who fell in the wilderness "heard" God's Laws, but were not "doers". The Wicked Kings of Israel "heard God's Laws", but were not "doers".

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers" of the law "shall be justified".

Ananias, with Sapphira his wife were "hearers" of God's Laws, not "doers".

Eve was a "hearer" of God's Laws, not a "doer".

Men of true Faith have always been "Doers" of God's Laws, not hearers only. Those Christians in Matthew 7:22,23, were "Hearers" of God's Laws, not "doers" like those whose house will Stand.

From the very beginning the prince of this world has promoted the philosophy that God's Laws are "Against" men.

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (reject God's Commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and (then) ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the philosophy of the prince of this world, that as long as man "Yields themselves" servants to obey God, they will remain blind and Ignorant.

My friends, listen to the Jesus "of the bible" and "live by", not by the traditions, high days and philosophies of this world's popular religious sects and businesses, but by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Live by Faith in God, like His Only begotten Son, and "Every Example" of Faithful man did. Glorify Him by honoring Him with more than your lips. Yes, it will bring divisions in your life. Yes, you will have internal battles. Yes, the religions of this world will shun, ridicule and cast you out. But in the end the truly Faithful will be told, "well done, good and faithful servant.

The balance of the above will remain a half story, void of the adversaries of "people."

Scripture is never about "just people." It's about people AND our adversary, the devil and his messengers.

It's actually interesting that most positions just can't quite seem to pin this subject down.

It's critical, but covered because that adversary is real for all of us, even though unseen.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

The stand is internal, as is the battle. And yes, it is a very real internal battle with a very real internal adversary.

We can definitely use THE LAW to condemn our ADVERSARY. That is what the law was always meant to do. To reveal that adversary, and condemn that adversary.

I have no issues with the law being against the lawlessness I bear in my own flesh, even though on the surface it sounds like it's against me. It's not. It's my ALLY in truth.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The position of God is that we do not sin 1 John 2:1-6 (break God's law) but if we love Him, we will keep His commandments John14:15 which He provides the Holy Spirit of Truth that enables us to do so. John14:15-18

As we've exchanged many times before, these matters are never matters of only people.

We are all engaged in a real battle with a real but unseen enemy.

That battle transpires internally.

And that enemy is never legally obedient, no matter what "you do."

The general point

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As we've exchanged many times before, these matters are never matters of only people.

We are all engaged in a real battle with a real but unseen enemy.

That battle transpires internally.

And that enemy is never legally obedient, no matter what "you do."

The general point

I can't control the devil, only myself and my choices to obey sin or follow God. Rom6:16 Rom8:1-8

 

[Studyman]

Nope.

Galatians 3:12

And the law is not of faith -

The LAW added 430 years after Abraham "because of Transgressions" to provide for remission of sins, "Till the True Lamb of God" should come, is not of faith.

Matt. 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is a Law of Faith.

IF that's all that transpired within you'd have a point.

But sin that dwells in "everyone" will produce resisting evil thoughts in everyone.

It's important to consider all of God's Inspired Words concerning such things. The Spirit of Christ tells me through His Servant James:

Jam. 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when "he is drawn away" of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then "when lust hath conceived", it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So you have it backwards here, according to what is written in Scriptures. It's not the lust that defiles us, it's refusing to rule over the lust, and letting it reign in our mortal bodies being drawn away by it, that defiles us. God shows those who seek His Righteousness this truth from the very beginning.

Gen. 4: 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The human baby sees something and desires it and so takes it. But he learns through the things he suffers, that taking what is not yours is a sin. And even though he has thoughts for the rest of his life to desire something, he is Learned of the Father, to rule over this lust, so he is not carried away with it, which would bring him into SIN. This same thing is true for any lust, desire or hunger.

It's not the money or the naked woman or the slanderous words of another that defiles a man. It's being drawn away by the lusts and desires we are born with that defiles us.

Mark 7:21-23,

20 And he said, That which "cometh out" of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

James understood this. If a man is drawn away by "evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness", all of which exist in the flesh, this brings for Sin.

This is why Paul said "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

This is why Jesus said, "Deny yourself and pick of your humanness, and follow me.

Romans 7:7-13, and as Jesus stated, these are what defile us all. The thoughts are not "optional."

The thoughts are not optional. Eve didn't have a choice concerning the voices that were in the world God placed her. But she did have the free will capacity to rule over her thoughts, and not let them guide her.

This is the whole purpose of the Armor of God, to fight against thoughts, to discern thoughts, to rule over wickedness in our mind. We cannot stop the thought from coming in, but we can discern and rule over it, as it is written.

James 4: 7 "Submit yourselves" therefore to God. "Resist the devil", and he will flee from you.

Paul discovered that even when he did good, evil was still present with him. Romans 7:17-21

Paul also gave us the cure for this dilemma.

Romans 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then "with the mind" I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh "the law of sin". (Wages of sin is death)

It's a fairly easy conclusion to come to if we're honest with ourselves.

This is true. Most promoters of this world's religious system only seek justification. Not correction or God's Righteousness. Very difficult to be honest with ones self, if all we seek is to defend and justify a religious philosophy.

It also makes it easier for us to see who isn't.

Well, that's a nice story but it's really not an accurate picture. Why? Because the people of Israel were not just people. They, like us, dealt with the exact same problem, and that is "internal evil" courtesy of the TEMPTER.

But not for Caleb or Joshua. They "ruled over" the evil thoughts that came into them. How did they do this? Was it not by refusing to "Yield themselves" servants to obey other voices in the world that God placed them in? Did they not "let sin reign in their mortal bodies"? Did they not "Yield themselves" to God, and their bodies as instruments of righteousness to God? Did they not "put on" the Armor of God? Did they refuse to be "drawn away" by the wicked thoughts that entered them?

So where you see just Israel in disobedience, we should see that they had:

A spirit of slumber put upon them, by God no less: Romans 11:8

It is so important to consider all of God's message through His servants, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Rom. 11: 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Why did this happen to them?

Rom. 1: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him "not as God", neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also "gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts", to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

There is such a huge difference between the philosophies you promote here, and what is actually written in Scripture. Until we can agree on Christ's and Paul's and James Words concerning Sin, there really isn't a reason to continue.