Jesus did not do away with the law in Mat 5:17

[Teofrastus]

What if Eve would have yielded herself a servant to obey God, as Paul teaches? Would she not then also be "operating on the command of the Lord Almighty?" So then, the devil, following God's instruction, tempted Eve according to Luther. And these Scriptures were written for our admonition,
"for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

Wouldn't this then be a lesson for us, to "operate on the command of the Lord Almighty", and not the "Other voices" in the garden who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"? This would then be us "striving against sin" (Heb. 12:4)

Isn't that what repentant sinners do?

I have long heard to philosophy that the Eve story is to show that no one can obey God. But the Scriptures do not support this popular religious philosophy. It seems the story of Adam and Eve was written, as Paul teaches, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

The point of Luther's theology of the cross is that, in the earthly realm, evil can bring good consequences and vice versa. He calls it the opus alienum, which is the hidden work of God. God may save the sinner by becoming to him a devil. Sin will overflow and become obvious in its consequences. Only then will the sinner open the eye of faith, as there is no other way out. Needless to say, most theologians do not find this "dark" theology palatable.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I belong to the participation camp, which implies that earthly things and events "imitate" the divine to the best of their ability. Divine power is indirect, and "divine omnipotence" is better understood as a symbol, not as "All-causality".

Definitely with you on part 1 above.

Part 2, which may represent a more sophisticated method of ushering God out of the pictures of natural realties, maybe not so much

But I have considered that my sight does potentially flirt with pantheism after a fashion, which I obviously would reject

GOD can be with His creation and not be created Himself. Content to allow for the mysteries of contemplations, knowing I'll never get to the bottom of it, and don't see a need to go there or do so. I disrespect my own fences on the subject

 

[Studyman]

I really don't believe any sinner can call themselves obedient and be honest at the same time.

So then, in your religion, David is being dishonest when He said,

Psalms 119: 166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments. 167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly. 168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

And in your religion, God is being dishonest when HE said;

1 Kings 3: 14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

1 Kings 9: 3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

And in your religion, is Paul deceiving men when he said;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again;

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members "as instruments of righteousness" unto God.

And is Paul then being dishonest when he said;

Rom. 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And is he deceiving me when he said;

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Is Jesus being dishonest in your religion when HE said;

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

and again;

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, "keep the commandments."

So then why do you continue to let Sin reign in your mortal body, to obey the lusts thereof? Perhaps if you were to stop listening to all the other voices in the garden God placed us in, and "DO" as Paul instructs, and "yield yourselves unto God", sin wouldn't reign in your mortal body, as you claim it does now. "Don't you know"?

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (But you still are according to your own words) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

We are all servants to something.

So, is dishonesty a legitimate avenue of approach to God in Christ? I don't think so.

I agree. And preaching or implying that God, and David, and Jesus and Paul and those who believe them are dishonest, is not a legitimate avenue of approach to God in Christ, in my view.

I'd rather be like the publican in Luke 18, "God be merciful to me, a sinner."

And what would the Lord's Christ say to this publican who came to Him? Would HE not say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Is Jesus not clear about this requirement for Salvation? Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.? Would HE not tell this man " Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee"? Did HE not say to the adulterous woman, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

How is this different than Paul saying in Romans 6.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness "unto sin": but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Now I posted these Christ Inspired words of Paul, and you implied that I'm being dishonest.

I don't believe Jesus or Paul is being dishonest.

I'm good with that. No sense kidding myself and I ain't fooling God, that's for sure.

No, we aren't fooling God. He knows the difference between men who honor Him with their lips, from those who obey Him from the heart.

You do understand that evil thoughts defile all of us, I presume? Mark 7:21-23 is legit

Of course, this is our battle isn't it, as it is written;

Eph. 6: 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, "against spiritual wickedness in high places".

This would be our mind, Yes? Where the evil thoughts dwell, and the Temple of God dwells? And what are men tasked to do, from the very beginning?

Gen. 4: 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

For instance, if I'm a thief, and I hear about the Christ, and I say, "Have mercy on me oh Lord, the thief". And the Jesus "of the bible" would then say, "Repent, and turn to God". And I could ask, what does that mean Lord? And He would then say;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created "in righteousness and true holiness". 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole "steal no more": but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Will the "other voice" in the garden try to convince this man that it is impossible to stop stealing? That he will always be a thief. Of course he will. But remember my friend, the devil is the liar, not Jesus or His Father, or Paul or the Holy Scriptures.

And if a year later, I see something I want, and the evil thought enters my mind, I would destroy it with the Sword of the Lord and would not lust after what was not mine and I will overcome the spiritual wickedness in my mind, and rule over it, and let it not reign in my mortal body, but the Power of God and protection of His Armor, if I "put it on".

The teaching that we are helpless against the evil, or powerless to stop sin from reigning in our mortal body is a deception straight out of the mouth of the devil, the "other voice" in the garden. As I have demonstrated by God's Own Inspired Words, we have everything we need if we "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God. But without belief/faith in God, we can do nothing, and our house will fall.

AND, I'll add that I'm definitely OK with God's Laws, all of them, being against my own evil conscience and evil thoughts. To me that is a foregone conclusion. It also brings a healthy dose of Divine fear to my table, knowing that God can whack me anytime He elects to do so, AND HE HAS just to drive home the lesson. So I really can't help but to believe the way I do

I'm glad you are OK with God's Laws.

It is true that God gives men over to their delusions. And as Prophesied, there are "many" false teachers in this world, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

We are warned about them over and over in the Scriptures.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh" after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

This is the same deception from the very beginning, "Thou shall surely not die" regardless of whom a man "yields himself" a servant to obey.

I advocate that a man trusts the Word of God that Jesus said "cannot be broken". And stay away from the "other voices" in the garden God placed us in, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but "Work Iniquity".

 

[Studyman]

The point of Luther's theology of the cross is that, in the earthly realm, evil can bring good consequences and vice versa. He calls it the opus alienum, which is the hidden work of God. God may save the sinner by becoming to him a devil. Sin will overflow and become obvious in its consequences. Only then will the sinner open the eye of faith, as there is no other way out. Needless to say, most theologians do not find this "dark" theology palatable.

If Luther believed in God, good for him. But I have no reason to study him or adopt his religious opinions, or even consider them. Why would I, given all the warnings about deceivers who "come in Christ's Name"? God has given you and me His Oracles, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

Why should we listen to the "other voices" in the garden, who profess to know God? Isn't that the behavior that got Eve deceived in the first place, and caused Adam to sin? There is Luther, Augustine, Council of Nicaea, Wesley, Calvin, Russell, Smith, Huss, Miller, the Pope, the list goes on and on and on. All claiming different philosophies, all "coming in Christ's Name", all part of this world's religious sects and businesses that make up, what they call themselves, "Christianity".

Consider this for a minute, this world's religious system of divided by hundreds of different religious sects and businesses, some have become gigantic business tied at the hip to this world's governments and corporations, tax codes, etc. They all compete with each other for butts to fill the seats of the manmade shrines of worship. They all claim the Spirit of the same God, and they all claim their "way" is the true way. And all because men adopt the philosophies of these many differing "other voices" in the garden God placed us in, which are in direct contradiction to much of the Word of God.

There is no place in Scriptures which define or describe God's Church, the Body of Christ, like this. There is a place where this kind of chaos and confusion exists though. It's called Babylon.

I really appreciate your post, and your words regarding Luther's theology. I hope you might stand back a little and consider the religious system which exists in the world God placed us in and note that God placed Jesus in a world in which religions existed that didn't promote the "Way of the Lord", just as Abraham was also placed in a world who had rejected God's instruction.

I think there is an Exodus in every believer's life. Not from one religious sect to another, but from this world's religious system to the Church of God which is not of this world.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So then, in your religion, David is being dishonest when He said,

Psalms 119: 166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments. 167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly. 168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

And in your religion, God is being dishonest when HE said;

1 Kings 3: 14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

1 Kings 9: 3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

And in your religion, is Paul deceiving men when he said;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again;

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members "as instruments of righteousness" unto God.

And is Paul then being dishonest when he said;

Rom. 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And is he deceiving me when he said;

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Is Jesus being dishonest in your religion when HE said;

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

and again;

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, "keep the commandments."

So then why do you continue to let Sin reign in your mortal body, to obey the lusts thereof? Perhaps if you were to stop listening to all the other voices in the garden God placed us in, and "DO" as Paul instructs, and "yield yourselves unto God", sin wouldn't reign in your mortal body, as you claim it does now. "Don't you know"?

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (But you still are according to your own words) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

We are all servants to something.



I agree. And preaching or implying that God, and David, and Jesus and Paul and those who believe them are dishonest, is not a legitimate avenue of approach to God in Christ, in my view.


And what would the Lord's Christ say to this publican who came to Him? Would HE not say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Is Jesus not clear about this requirement for Salvation? Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.? Would HE not tell this man " Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee"? Did HE not say to the adulterous woman, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

How is this different than Paul saying in Romans 6.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness "unto sin": but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Now I posted these Christ Inspired words of Paul, and you implied that I'm being dishonest.

I don't believe Jesus or Paul is being dishonest.



No, we aren't fooling God. He knows the difference between men who honor Him with their lips, from those who obey Him from the heart.



Of course, this is our battle isn't it, as it is written;

Eph. 6: 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, "against spiritual wickedness in high places".

This would be our mind, Yes? Where the evil thoughts dwell, and the Temple of God dwells? And what are men tasked to do, from the very beginning?

Gen. 4: 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

For instance, if I'm a thief, and I hear about the Christ, and I say, "Have mercy on me oh Lord, the thief". And the Jesus "of the bible" would then say, "Repent, and turn to God". And I could ask, what does that mean Lord? And He would then say;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created "in righteousness and true holiness". 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole "steal no more": but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Will the "other voice" in the garden try to convince this man that it is impossible to stop stealing? That he will always be a thief. Of course he will. But remember my friend, the devil is the liar, not Jesus or His Father, or Paul or the Holy Scriptures.

And if a year later, I see something I want, and the evil thought enters my mind, I would destroy it with the Sword of the Lord and would not lust after what was not mine and I will overcome the spiritual wickedness in my mind, and rule over it, and let it not reign in my mortal body, but the Power of God and protection of His Armor, if I "put it on".

The teaching that we are helpless against the evil, or powerless to stop sin from reigning in our mortal body is a deception straight out of the mouth of the devil, the "other voice" in the garden. As I have demonstrated by God's Own Inspired Words, we have everything we need if we "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God. But without belief/faith in God, we can do nothing, and our house will fall.



I'm glad you are OK with God's Laws.

It is true that God gives men over to their delusions. And as Prophesied, there are "many" false teachers in this world, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

We are warned about them over and over in the Scriptures.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh" after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

This is the same deception from the very beginning, "Thou shall surely not die" regardless of whom a man "yields himself" a servant to obey.

I advocate that a man trusts the Word of God that Jesus said "cannot be broken". And stay away from the "other voices" in the garden God placed us in, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but "Work Iniquity".

If you'd care to make the claim that anyone in the Bible or anyone who's ever lived other than Jesus was sinless, have at it

 

[Studyman]

If you'd care to make the claim that anyone in the Bible or anyone who's ever lived other than Jesus was sinless, have at it

That is not the point I am making, nor was it the point Jesus was making, or God His father was making, nor was it the point Paul was making, or David was making in their words that I posted, but you ignored. If you are not comfortable discussing their words, or seeking to understand the point they were making, that is OK by me.

But for the record, they are not being dishonest with you, and neither was I, when I posted their words and asked questions about them.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That is not the point I am making, nor was it the point Jesus was making, or God His father was making, nor was it the point Paul was making, or David was making in their words that I posted, but you ignored. If you are not comfortable discussing their words, or seeking to understand the point they were making, that is OK by me.

But for the record, they are not being dishonest with you, and neither was I, when I posted their words and asked questions about them.

I tend to cut to the most salient point and start there

Were any people other than Jesus ever sinless? Even for a nanosecond? Following the laws notwithstanding. Kind of beside the point

I have no issues with the law standing and being against the sin/evil in everyone, even though that conclusion can be rather unpleasant for religious people

 

[Studyman]

I tend to cut to the most salient point and start there

No sir, that isn't what you are doing at all. You are creating your own salient point, that no one is trying to make, while completely ignoring the God Inspired Scriptures I posted, along with the questions I posed. And now you ask me questions, with the full expectation that I will give you the simplest of courtesies of answering them, a courtesy that you withheld from me, while you imply that I'm being dishonest for posting the Scriptures and asking the questions.

And all this because I said "But there is only ONE God. Shouldn't men "Yield themselves" servants to obey Him?"

I mean no disrespect here, I'm just being honest. I am glad to engage with you and answer your questions.

Were any people other than Jesus ever sinless? Even for a nanosecond?

The bible says that Abraham was "Justified". I take that to mean that His Sins were removed. The Spirit of Christ on David said "103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he "removed" our transgressions from us.

God speaks to a time when "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more". God told David, "And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath "put away" thy sin; thou shalt not die"

The Jesus "of the Bible" said, Luke 7: 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

If God has removed my sins, then I am "Sinless", Yes? Not just for a nano-second, but for as long as I "Let not sin reign in my mortal body". So David was Sinless, Abraham was Sinless, Caleb was Sinless, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, were "Sinless". And this is the Goal for men in Christ, Yes? To strive against sin. To "God and Sin no more". To "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

As it is written;

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, "that ye sin not". And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Are we not to be a hearer only, but a "Doer" of these Sayings?

Paul said,

Rom. 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made "free from sin", ye became "the servants of righteousness".

If a man has sinned, but the Jesus "of the Bible" removes that Sin, and makes this man "Free from Sin", is this man then not "Sinless", according to Scriptures? Will you answer that question?

Following the laws notwithstanding. Kind of beside the point

How so? What does Paul actually say?

"What then? "shall we sin", because we are not under the law, (Dead in our sins and trespasses) but under grace? (Alive, our sins removed) God forbid. (That means NO! in my understanding) How can I "Go and sin no more" as the entire Bible teaches, if I don't "yield myself" a servant to obey God?

If Jesus died to remove my sins, so I can be Sinless like Him, why would I continue to let sin reign in my mortal body? Is this how a man treats his Savior in this world's religions? Does Paul's teaching mean anything?

20 For when "ye were the servants of sin", ye were "free from righteousness". 21 "What fruit had ye then" in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things "is death".

Isn't this speaking of men, even men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who are living in iniquity? God's Laws are clearly not important to them, as they also consider obedience to God, "beside the point". But these Words of Paul teach another gospel, shall we not consider them?

22 But now being made "free from sin", (Sinless) and become servants to God, ye have your fruit "unto holiness", and the end everlasting life.

As opposed to letting Sin continue to reign in our mortal bodies, which in the end causes everlasting Death.

I have no issues with the law standing and being against the sin/evil in everyone, even though that conclusion can be rather unpleasant for religious people

I would say the "LAW" exposes the sin/evil in men, so we can know what to destroy, what to "rule over", what to strive against. What to "Do no more". But this world's religions have rejected much of God's Judgments, statutes and commandments, and have gone about establishing their own judgments, high days, and statutes. Jesus didn't do any of these things, are we not to strive to be like Him? Isn't that the definition of a "Christian", according to Scriptures? "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is why it's so important to read what is actually written, in my view, and not listen to all the many "other voices" in the garden God placed us in, "Who profess to know God, but in works deny Him".

So the answer to your question, "Were any people other than Jesus ever sinless"? Of course, isn't that the very purpose of His Sacrifice, to remove men's sins?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

while completely ignoring the God Inspired Scriptures I posted, along with the questions I posed

You have a one sided view that completely fails to factor in our adversary

What good is half a message?

 

[Studyman]

You have a one sided view that completely fails to factor in our adversary

My adversary is who the Jesus "of the Bible" warns me of. And that is religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who come in His Name, who slander me for no cause, who refuses to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

As it is written; "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".

What good is half a message?

I posted the Holy Scriptures and asked you questions. It's only one-sided because you refuse to engage in even the simplest and most common of courtesies.

Nevertheless, thank you for your replies such as they were.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

My adversary is who the Jesus "of the Bible" warns me of. And that is religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who come in His Name, who slander me for no cause, who refuses to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

As it is written; "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".



I posted the Holy Scriptures and asked you questions. It's only one-sided because you refuse to engage in even the simplest and most common of courtesies.

Nevertheless, thank you for your replies such as they were.

I'm just trying to get you to get our adversary into the pictures of sin, for starters.

As noted prior, your positions are void of the obvious.

In addition to the fact that zero people other than Jesus have ever been sinless.

Pretty simple to get to the core of these matters

 

[Doug Brents]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away with the law and that believers today are not under the Mosaic moral law in the Old Testament. People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin and ask God for forgiveness and with a snap of God's finger, all is forgiven. Some even claim that believers need not ask forgiveness for any sin because Jesus's death on the cross covered all of our sins, past, present and future.

One again, these false teachings come from the traditions of men and are not found in Scripture.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

That is what the Jewish people understood Jesus to have said. If you get away from the false teaching practice of only reading certain verses and no further, Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments? The Mosaic Law instructed for God's people to be kind to strangers, to show mercy, to help out the poor and needy and honor thy father and mother. Are those a part of a believer's life today or did Jesus do away with them?
The Law needs to be looked at as instructions for the Jews then and believers today rather than a strict set of rules.

When Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Mat 4:4, are believers today supposed to live that way? That instruction comes from Deut 8:3. Or how about, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Mat 4:7? Does that apply today? It comes straight from Deut 6:16. What about "Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and him only, Mat 4:10? Jesus was quoting Deut 6:13. What about Mat 19:19, "Honour your father and mother, Ex 20:12 and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, Lev 19:18? What about what Paul wrote in Rom 12:19? He took this from Deut 32:35. Most of you know that Deuteronomy means a "re-telling or a re-giving" of the Law. The book of Deuteronomy is quoted over 60 times in the New Testament. The book of Romans has 30 direct quotes or references from the Old Testament. There are direct quotes, paraphrases or references to/from the Old Testament in every New Testament book!

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

You make a good sounding argument, but your are trying to disprove a correct Biblical truth by debunking the wrong passage. It may be that Jesus was really saying "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture." But that does not mean that we are still under the OT Law. On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished." What was finished? Everything He came to do. What did He come to do? Correctly teach the Law? Yes, but He also came to fulfill the requirements of the Covenant for man (which man could not do).

Let's look over to Gal 4 and 5. Starting in Gal 4:21, Paul speaks directly to those (like yourself) who want to keep believers in Christ under the Law. Then he makes an analogy, an allegory, between the two Covenants (OT and NT) and the mothers of the two sons of Abraham. Hagar is compared with the OT, and the Law that came from Sinai; and those who follow Christ are told to "Drive out the slave woman and her son...". Then in Gal 5:2-6 makes an attack on one of the prime symbols of the OT Law of Moses: circumcision. He says that if you have yourself circumcised in order to fulfill the OT Law, then Christ is meaningless to you.

There are many other passages that speak of us not being under the Law of Moses anymore. But this one is one of the most explicit.

But the fact that we are no longer under the OT does not in any way lead to the conclusion that we are now free to sin as much as we please. Paul is strictly against this when, in Rom 6:1, he condemns such notions. We are free from sin because we have died to it, and so we should no longer live in sin expecting grace to expand to cover the increased sin. Rather, we are transformed into the likeness of Christ (in whom no sin was ever found), and so we should live like Him. We are free from sin to live for Christ. Not free in Christ to live like Satan.

 

[Studyman]

I'm just trying to get you to get our adversary into the pictures of sin, for starters.

As noted prior, your positions are void of the obvious.

In addition to the fact that zero people other than Jesus have ever been sinless.

Pretty simple to get to the core of these matters

Nevertheless, the popular religious philosophies of this world you have adopted and are now promoting notwithstanding, the Scriptures mean something, even the ones I posted that you don't want to talk about.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Nevertheless, the popular religious philosophies of this world you have adopted and are now promoting notwithstanding, the Scriptures mean something, even the ones I posted that you don't want to talk about.

Duly noted that your positions have exactly zero accounting for the very real internal effects on us all from our adversary, the devil

I have no issues with the Law fully standing against our enemy and I'm certainly not about to give that lawless one a free pass on my flesh. You?

 

[Studyman]

Duly noted that your positions have exactly zero accounting for the very real internal effects on us all from our adversary, the devil

I have no issues with the Law fully standing against our enemy and I'm certainly not about to give that lawless one a free pass on my flesh. You?

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches that the adversary, the deceiver, "Comes in His Name", and Paul said the deceiver "Transforms itself into an Apostle of Christ", and the Jesus "of the Bible" also teaches that there are "MANY" who call Him Lord, Lord, who teach in His Name, but "Work iniquity" and HE said that HE doesn't even know them. And Paul warns of men who "profess that they know God"; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

So I believe in the Jesus "of the Bible", it is HIS Position regarding the adversary that I have posted and believe. I know who Jesus says the adversary is and have shared His Words with you. But when I post HIS Very position, that I have adopted as my own, you reply that by adopting Jesus' position "I have exactly zero accounting for the very real internal effects on us all from our adversary, the devil".

So you are free to wait and stand guard looking for the little red devil with horns and pointed tail if you like. But according to the Scriptures, the "Real internal effects" of the adversary is "Deception". That is, "believing" things about God's Word that are not true. Like what happened to Eve when she listened to "another voice" in the garden who professed to know God.

I advocate that men put on the Armor of God, which includes "the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, "which is the word of God":"

In this way, I can know who the adversary is, according to the Lord's Christ, and through Scriptures I can discern his religious philosophies, traditions and doctrines whether they are from God or man. This is God's armor that HE created for me, to "be able to stand against the wiles of the devil", who "Comes in Christ's Name" and is disguised as "Ministers of Righteousness".

This is the adversary the Jesus "of the Bible" warns about. And I believe Him. "Many" shall be deceived by these "Many" who come in Christ's Name. We should "Take Heed" of the words, philosophies and traditions of men, and follow the instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible", in my view. That is the point of my posts.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches that the adversary, the deceiver, "Comes in His Name", and Paul said the deceiver "Transforms itself into an Apostle of Christ", and the Jesus "of the Bible" also teaches that there are "MANY" who call Him Lord, Lord, who teach in His Name, but "Work iniquity" and HE said that HE doesn't even know them. And Paul warns of men who "profess that they know God"; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

So I believe in the Jesus "of the Bible", it is HIS Position regarding the adversary that I have posted and believe. I know who Jesus says the adversary is and have shared His Words with you. But when I post HIS Very position, that I have adopted as my own, you reply that by adopting Jesus' position "I have exactly zero accounting for the very real internal effects on us all from our adversary, the devil".

So you are free to wait and stand guard looking for the little red devil with horns and pointed tail if you like. But according to the Scriptures, the "Real internal effects" of the adversary is "Deception". That is, "believing" things about God's Word that are not true. Like what happened to Eve when she listened to "another voice" in the garden who professed to know God.

I advocate that men put on the Armor of God, which includes "the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, "which is the word of God":"

In this way, I can know who the adversary is, according to the Lord's Christ, and through Scriptures I can discern his religious philosophies, traditions and doctrines whether they are from God or man. This is God's armor that HE created for me, to "be able to stand against the wiles of the devil", who "Comes in Christ's Name" and is disguised as "Ministers of Righteousness".

This is the adversary the Jesus "of the Bible" warns about. And I believe Him. "Many" shall be deceived by these "Many" who come in Christ's Name. We should "Take Heed" of the words, philosophies and traditions of men, and follow the instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible", in my view. That is the point of my posts.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If anyone thinks their evil conscience obeys God, they have merely been deceived by it

 

[Studyman]

If anyone thinks their evil conscience obeys God, they have merely been deceived by it

Will you ever actually respond to an actual post? You are making the Christ's case against the "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Will you ever actually respond to an actual post? You are making the Christ's case against the "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

Certainly can. As soon as you admit to a basic, which is that we are all present tense sinners with an evil conscience.

At that point any "legal obedience" charades are evaporated

 

[Hoping2]

Good day,

In Christ the law has been fulfilled, it's demands (righteous requirement) are fulfilled.

It's ability to condemn is lost.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What the Law could not do ( by design) God did by sending his own son. The (law) of the Spirit enables us to do that which the flesh is unable to do.

In Him,

Bill

Thank God we can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, now !

 

[Studyman]

Certainly can. As soon as you admit to a basic, which is that we are all present tense sinners with an evil conscience.

At that point any "legal obedience" charades are evaporated

That is what the serpent convinced Eve of. It wasn't true then, and it still isn't true.