Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I'm not addressing the spirits. That is above my pay grade. I was simply speaking of the souls of the wicked being cleansed in the Lake of Fire.

Unfortunately, the majority of Orthodox clergy are still holding tenaciously to this Roman Catholic fantasy called "eternal conscious torment," which was started in earnest by Augustine (one of his less brilliant ideas, along with the idea that unbaptized babies go to hell and are tormented forever).

I find it somewhat bizarre to hear those in Orthodox carry on about how important Holy Tradition is, yet they jettisoned a massive tradition called "Universal Restoration" which had been the majority belief of Christians for the first 500 years of Christendom until Augustine began his attack on it. Seems a tad hypocritical to me.

Look, we're on the same side as it pertains to people.

I'd also point out that technically, the RCC "allows" their adherents to believe that every person has a shot at purgatory, and also technically, could move past that point, although a heterodox position, not commonly held. The EO is not so kind and prefers eternal resistors in torment. The same God loving us while tormenting them. Kinda weird imho

 

[jonojim1337]

The whole batch was already determined guilty. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19

One Sole Exception, of course

I think most of them were posthumously deified, as it is with the canonisation of saints. The one exception? Augustus. Who bears too many resemblances to Jesus to be ignored.

 

[Jipsah]

Looks like the Imperial family to me.
]

Kinda like the Kims up north?

 

[Jipsah]

I'd also point out that technically, the RCC "allows" their adherents to believe that every person has a shot at purgatory,

Actually, no. Only the blessed go to purgatory, to be purged (hence the name) of the effects of their sins in life. The idea is that no one gets into Heaven still stinking of their former sins. The damned go straight to hell with no stopovers.

 

[jonojim1337]

Kinda like the Kims up north?

I said looks. They had to avoid using imperial titles to not upset the Mings. So yeah, kind of like the Kims.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Actually, no. Only the blessed go to purgatory, to be purged (hence the name) of the effects of their sins in life. The idea is that no one gets into Heaven still stinking of their former sins. The damned go straight to hell with no stopovers.

That wouldn't be the official position of RCC purgatory

 

[Lost Witness]

Purgatory isn't biblical it amounts to saying what God has declared clean to be unclean and diminishes the Lords sacrifice.

 

[Valletta]

Purgatory isn't biblical it amounts to saying what God has declared clean to be unclean and diminishes the Lords sacrifice.

Luke 12:59 "I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny"

 

[jonojim1337]

Luke 12:59 "I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny"

That verse is funny if you think about it in a context of enclosed earth reincarnation cycle.

 

[David Lamb]

That verse is funny if you think about it in a context of enclosed earth reincarnation cycle.

The bible nowhere teaches reincarnation.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The bible nowhere teaches reincarnation.

Hi David. I agree the Scriptures give no clear, intrinsically verifiable demonstration of reincarnation, such as it does concerning the resurrection, but I have always been intrigued by this question asked of Jesus by his disciples:

”And passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, and His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this one sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God may be revealed in him;“
‭‭John‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭LSV‬‬

Again, nothing with which to establish the teaching of reincarnation , but nonetheless intriguing as to the thought process of his disciples.

blessings,

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Purgatory isn't biblical it amounts to saying what God has declared clean to be unclean and diminishes the Lords sacrifice.

The "evil present" within no one, nor the works thereof are getting past the pearly gates:

1 Cor. 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every man's, not just "believers after any fashions."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Actually, no. Only the blessed go to purgatory, to be purged (hence the name) of the effects of their sins in life. The idea is that no one gets into Heaven still stinking of their former sins. The damned go straight to hell with no stopovers.

It's not a requirement of the RCC to think any person will be in hell. They, as a sect, have never determined a single named person to be in hell now, or in the future. And this is true of orthodoxy in general.

Can members believe there are or will be people in hell? Yes. But it's not "mandatory," at least in the RCC

They make room for the possibility of the prevailing Grace and Mercy in Christ, however remotely or not, that it's seen in the eyes of the individual.

"the Church affirms the existence of hell, it emphasizes God's mercy and doesn't require believers to assume anyone is currently in hell or will go there" (our friendly google AI)

But yes, that is the case ^^^

Any believer should at least mark prevailing Grace and Mercy of God in Christ at least as a "possibility." Don't you think?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think most of them were posthumously deified, as it is with the canonisation of saints. The one exception? Augustus. Who bears too many resemblances to Jesus to be ignored.

Do you have a picture of Jesus to verify this claim?

and why are you groveling over this supposed genetic superiority anyway?

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David. I agree the Scriptures give no clear, intrinsically verifiable demonstration of reincarnation, such as it does concerning the resurrection, but I have always been intrigued by this question asked of Jesus by his disciples:

”And passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, and His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this one sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God may be revealed in him;“
‭‭John‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭LSV‬‬

Again, nothing with which to establish the teaching of reincarnation , but nonetheless intriguing as to the thought process of his disciples.

blessings,

The Jews of Jesus's day believed that individual suffering was a result of individual sin, or perhaps the sin of a parent. I imagine that is why the disciples asked the question.

 

[Dan1988]

We are debating, as the thread shows, whether mortal human lives (soul/spirit/essence, whatever you consider as "human") are tortured for eternity, along with evil immortal angels, in a fire specifically created for them. I am addressing your statements, like the following. This is not "Flaming" in my understanding, as you have asked me to show you what "You Claim", therefore, I should be withing the rules of this forum to provide an honest reply to your questions.

I have a great respect for this forum, and do not wish to be contrary to to them.

So in an honest and heartfelt desire to answer your question, please consider the following.



And in this post.



So in each case, you are saying that some, perhaps many mortal humans will be placed in this fire, reserved for immortal angels and therefore, of course, the fire will burn forever and ever because angels are immortal.. But in your statements above, you are saying that this fire won't kill/destroy the mortal humans. That somehow these humans have become "immortal" and will therefore be tortured eternally just like the immortal angels that deceived them.

But where did these humans receive this immortality, you say they must have, from? It can only come from God, in my view as a believer in God. So they were either born with it, which is what "many" who come in Christ's Name promote in this world God placed me in. Or God grants them the gift of immortality after HE raises them from the dead, and then He casts them into the Fire..

I think both philosophies are, as you say, "Silly". Nevertheless, according to your statements, you are at least promoting one of these silly teachings.

I have heard from men in this world that there are many different life's, deaths and genders and so on and so forth. But in my understand of the Holy scriptures, there are only 2 genders.

Male and Female,

And there are only two kinds of death.

A death from which there is a resurrection. (temporary death).

A death from which there is no resurrection, (death everlasting).

Just as there are only two kinds of Life.

A temporary life. (Mortal)

An Eternal life (Immortal)

And in each case, it is God who determines which is which as none of these things can exist apart from God.

What Paul advocates for is trusting in the Holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I believe Paul, and therefore I trust ALL that is written in the Holy scriptures.

You claim to trust "ALL" that is written in the Holy Scriptures, while rejecting or refusing to accept those which contradict your "denominational views".
You approach to the Holy Scriptures, doesn't allow them to speak to you, because you "cherry pick" verses of the Bible.

Whenever I present verses which contradict your denominations teaching, you simply look for other verses which seem to support your view. But the problem with that type of defence is that, it relies on the premiss that there are contradictions in the Bible and everyone is free to hold to their own opposing views and there is no absolute truth in the Bible.

I don't believe there are any errors or contradictions or mixed messages in the Bible. I have invited you to show me a single verse to support your opinion that there are only two kinds of death in the Bible, but you have failed to do so. I have also asked you to find a single verse to support your opinion that hell is not a place where sinners experience "Eternal Conscience Torment", and again you have failed to find a single verse to support these doctrines you hold to.

You believe in the "cessation of existence or annihilation", but you have never found a single verse of scripture to support this private opinion either. you are entitled to your private opinion, but you can't claim that it true or correct without any evidence, apart from "it seems right in your own eyes", but the Bible has something to say about "mans private opinion" --

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death".
or
Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

I understand that you are currently studying the Bible, and glad to hear that you are. Let me encourage you to continue, and allow me to share something I came to realise after studying the Bible for around three years. I had to discard and abandon many of the views and doctrines, which I held onto firmly.

It was very difficult to face the awful truth of the gospel, and allow the bible to interpret the bible. It meant that I had zero control over anything the Bible says. So, instead of me reading the Bible and drawing to conclusions, the Bible was reading me and showing me that I'm not called to evaluate or scrutinize Gods Word. Instead, God speaks for Himself through His Holy Spirit.

I found that every faithful believer, arrives at the same conclusions, because they are all led by the same Holy Spirit. We can look back over 2000 years of Church history and see the Church fathers holding to the exact same theology and doctrines, going right back to the Apostles.

Going back to our topic, I'd like to clarify what I said about man stepping into eternity. I never suggested that man's earthly body is immortal in it's present state. But all born again believers will receive their perfect, sinless, glorified "eternal" or "immortal" bodies in the life to come. We will be Chris like.
But our corrupt bodies of death, will be transformed, so there will be no corruption in us.

Likewise, all unbelievers will be resurrected and reunited with their corrupt earthly bodies and they will be cast into hell and they will feel the fires just as they would if they were back on earth, except their worm will never die and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Ceasing to exist will not be an option.

There are only two kinds of existence in the Bible, "Life" and "Death". Those who are in Christ have life, those who are outside of Christ are "Dead", but not the death that many hope for. Those who are walking around dead on earth right now, will remain in their spiritually dead state forever, if they are not born again.
The rich man who was tormented in hell, asked Abraham if somebody could warn his five brothers back on earth, not to come to this place of torment. But he said, they have the prophets and scriptures. If they don't believe them, they won't believe one who comes back from the dead to warn them.

 

[Dan1988]

Our Lord taught no such thing, unless, of course, you are reading corrupt texts such as the KJV or the Douay-Rheims, which are not faithful to the original Greek. And have you even stopped to think of what kind of monster God you believe in who would knowingly create sentient beings for the sole purpose of torturing them forever????


Let's talk about this some more, and I want an answer from you. Here is God, before anything is created. He knows everything that will ever happen before it even happens, which means that He knows that mankind will fall, sin and death will enter the world, and as a result, BILLIONS will suffer unimaginable torments with no relief at all. Yet, knowing this, and having NO NEED whatsoever to create anything (for He is ever complete and perfect in every way!) He goes ahead and does the Creation.

This means that foreknowing this, it is His express will that these BILLIONS be tortured forever.

Is this love? Is this the God who is love? What kind of God would do such a thing to His creation.

ANSWER THIS.




That is NOT what Matthew 25: 46 says. Once again, you are using corrupt texts not faithful to the Greek. The text says. ". . . into the age-lasting fire" and ". . . will go away into age-lasting correction (aionios kolasis)" If you are going to play theologian, then get at least a smattering of knowledge of the Greek that was the original text!!!




Some Universalists have stated that this refers to the throwing of the corpses of the dead who died in 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. Gehenna (NOT HELL!!!) was the garbage dump of Jerusalem outside the walls where dead animals and trash was burned, thereby giving an ongoing feast to both worms (maggots) and fire.




The Bible teaches that everyone -- ALL PEOPLE -- will receive the mercy of God. ALL PEOPLE!!

Does All Really Mean All?

As I continue to read arguments both pro and con regarding Patristic Universalism, I continue to find new discussions which bring up new arguments on the subject, both pro and con. One of th…

http4281.com

I never refer to the corrupt Greek text for anything. Jesus was a Jew, not Greek. The Jews are Gods chosen people, not the Greeks. The Greeks translated the original Hebrew and Aramaic texts into Greek, so we can assume they included a lot of their Pagan beliefs into the translations.

Truly born again Christians, would never put God on trial and accuse Him of being unjust or cruel. We have no business questioning anything God does, that's His business and His alone.
As an Elect Saint of God, I simply trust that everything God does is perfect and good. Yes even when He kills billions of men, women, children and unborn children as He did with Noah's flood, and even when He torments billions in the lake of fire for all eternity.

God is a mystery, we don't know much about Him. All we know is what he revealed to Us in the (Authorised version) of Holy Bible. So it's silly to try and put God in a box and say He shouldn't do this or that while we know next to nothing about Him.

I realise you have been raised in the Eastern Orthodox Denomination, but don't forget there are many other Denominations teaching radically different and opposing doctrines to yours. Jude ye not, lest you be judged.

 

[Dan1988]

So everybody has Eternal Life, either in Heaven or in hell. So the wages of sin isn't death at all, but eternal life in hell.

And one has to be alive to be conscious in perdition.

But one would pretty much have to be alive to care, wouldn't you say?

IE, they're alive. Eternally.

And that's the fate of the vast majority of those who've ever lived.

It's evident to me that you're unaware of the different contexts in which the words "life" and "death" are used in the Bible.
It's after midnight here so I'm too tired to do an exhaustive study with you so I'll do the lazy thing and hand you over to Dr. google.
If you're unsatisfied with the good Doctor's offering, I'll get back to you with a more personalised consultation

Salvation and eternal life: Believers are said to have eternal life through faith in Jesus, which means they will live eternally with God after physical death (John 11:25-26)

.Condemnation and spiritual death: Those who are not in Christ are considered spiritually dead, facing eternal death, as they are separated from God and subject to His judgment.

Physical life and death
God's ultimate control: Scripture emphasizes that God has the ultimate power over life and death, as seen in the Old Testament with figures like Elijah and the New Testament with Jesus' resurrection (1 Kings 17:19-23).

The finality of death: This concept highlights the finality of physical death for unbelievers, but for believers, it is only a transition to eternal life.


Life-giving words: Words have the power to build up, heal, and give life. Speaking God's word and words of blessing is seen as sowing seeds of life.

Death-dealing words: Words can also harm, tear down, and bring ruin. The Bible warns against using words in a way that brings destruction.

Judgment based on words: According to Matthew 12:37, people will be held accountable for their words, and they can be either justified or condemned by them.

Holy living: Since spiritual death is a reality for the ungodly, believers are motivated to live holy lives out of love for God.

Guarding the tongue: Believers are encouraged to be intentional with their words to ensure they are life-giving and not destructive.

Internal transformation: The words that come from the mouth are a reflection of the heart, so believers are to fill their hearts with God's word to speak life.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The Jews of Jesus's day believed that individual suffering was a result of individual sin, or perhaps the sin of a parent. I imagine that is why the disciples asked the question.

True, but I’m sure you would agree, sometimes suffering is a result of the one who sinned, and even the sin of the parents (King David). But this question specifically denotes the sin being done “before” birth; at least the way I’m reading the txt, it appears the disciples carried the idea one could sin “prior” to birth.

“Rabbi, who sinned, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?”

 

[Hentenza]

True, but I’m sure you would agree, sometimes suffering is a result of the one who sinned, and even the sin of the parents (King David). But this question specifically denotes the sin being done “before” birth; at least the way I’m reading the txt, it appears the disciples carried the idea one could sin “prior” to birth.

“Rabbi, who sinned, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?”

I think the idea here has nothing to do with the sin but with doing what glorifies God. Jesus answered that neither had sinned (him or his parents). His sight being restored made the beggar a witness to Christ and, therefore, is doing God’s work.