How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

[Clare73]

Yes I agree, but what I know is false is that God tortures his creation for all eternity

Then you are in disagreement with Jesus in Mt 25:46, Mk 9:43-48, the only one who presents an unending hell.

for finite sins,

Sin's magnitude is not measured by the human sinner but by the Divine offended.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Then you are in disagreement with Jesus in Mt 25:46, Mk 9:43-48, the only one who presents an unending hell.

Sin's magnitude is not measured by the human sinner but by the Divine offended.

" Sin's magnitude is not measured by the human sinner but by the Divine offended" This idea is no place found in scripture, but it comes from medieval legal system that says the punishment is measured by what status the offended was, so if a peasant kills an elite the punishment is far greater than if he killed another peasant. This is worldly thinking not Godly thinking. We are called to come out of the worlds way of thinking.
What you think preaches good but is not truth.

 

[Clare73]

" Sin's magnitude is not measured by the human sinner but by the Divine offended" This idea is no place found in scripture, but it comes from medieval legal system that says the punishment is measured by what status the offended was, so if a peasant kills an elite the punishment is far greater than if he killed another peasant.

Try again. . .peasants and elites are all human and equal in justice.

Humans and God are not equal, the divine is not equal to the human in justice.

Too much shooting-from-the-hip and not enough being-informed in metaphsical matters.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Try again. . .peasants and elites are all human and equal in justice.

Humans and God are not equal, the divine is not equal to the human in justice.

Too much shooting-from-the-hip and not enough being-informed in metaphsical matters.

Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that we be made one with him as he and the Father are one?
Please show me from scripture that you are getting this thinking from it and not from mans thinking.

 

[Clare73]

Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that we be made one with him as he and the Father are one?

That was the purpose of the cross.

The prayer was for those in Christ through faith.

Please show me from scripture that you are getting this thinking from it and not from mans thinking

 

[Neogaia777]

If peoples fates are sealed then why do anything at all ?

Why you guys always miss this very, very important part whenever I say this is beyond me, but it is always, always because "WE DON'T KNOW". Are any of you understanding this yet? Because it changes the map for us a lot, and I do mean "A LOT".

It seems like being a con man, telling people come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest, when under you way of thinking their fate is sealed, that's not being honest, and I do not think even with this view would say Jesus is not honest.

Jesus believed in determinism, and the fact that all is/was predestined/predetermined, and in fact, he was the first to discover/know this.

The notion that it brings God more glory that most suffer eternal torture and those few who do not are so much more appreciative of what he has done, is pure hog wash.

I see, your a universalist. Well. I hate to tell you, you're wrong, and are not basing your ideas on the truth of scripture and what Jesus believed in/taught.

the God who saves all his creation and loses none has much more glory than the one who either can't get the job done or who doesn't care if he creates people just to torture forever.

Your reasoning is faulty, re-think it again.

It's not because God couldn't get the job done, but only because temporary evil people in every single creation when each is made or each is created are always needed/necessary for (or during) the time/times when they are still fallen temporarily still, but are no longer necessary when they are not. They were always meant to be like that, and cannot change their fates from God's perspective, but from our perspective, they always still can, but that is only because we do not know what God already knows and already caused from God's perspective of knowing all (things) already, etc. From God's perspective, and under determinism, they could never change it, like ever, in any of the creations, which is why it is eternal, etc.

If we knew everything God knows, then there probably wouldn't ever be much of a reason for us to ever do or ever try to change anything, (individual/collective fates, etc), but because we don't, and never do, there always is a very, very good reason to always try to do that, or try to do these things always (or try to change/alter either individual or collective fates always), etc. Like I said, the map is a lot, lot different for us, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why you guys always miss this very, very important part whenever I say this is beyond me, but it is always, always because "WE DON'T KNOW". Are any of you understanding this yet? Because it changes the map for us a lot, and I do mean "A LOT".

Jesus believed in determinism, and the fact that all is/was predestined/predetermined, and in fact, he was the first to discover/know this.

I see, your a universalist. Well. I hate to tell you, you're wrong, and are not basing your ideas on the truth of scripture and what Jesus believed in/taught.

Your reasoning is faulty, re-think it again.

It's not because God couldn't get the job done, but only because temporary evil people in every single creation when each is made or each is created are always needed/necessary for (or during) the time/times when they are still fallen temporarily still, but are no longer necessary when they are not. They were always meant to be like that, and cannot change their fates from God's perspective, but from our perspective, they always still can, but that is only because we do not know what God already knows and already caused from God's perspective of knowing all (things) already, etc. From God's perspective, and under determinism, they could never change it, like ever, in any of the creations, which is why it is eternal, etc.

If we knew everything God knows, then there probably wouldn't ever be much of a reason for us to ever do or ever try to change anything, (individual/collective fates, etc), but because we don't, and never do, there always is a very, very good reason to always try to do that, or try to do these things always (or try to change/alter either individual or collective fates always), etc. Like I said, the map is a lot, lot different for us, etc.

God Bless.

Yes I believe that Jesus believed in determinism if you define it as scripture does, this is how scripture says it-
1 Cor 15:22 " For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed all will be given life."
2 Cor 5:14 " For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died."
1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially for the believer"
Col 1:19-22 " God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus"
1 Cor 15:28 "God will be all in all"
That is determinism as told by scripture.
Please explain why you think my reasoning is faulty.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes I believe that Jesus believed in determinism if you define it as scripture does, this is how scripture says it-
1 Cor 15:22 " For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed all will be given life."
2 Cor 5:14 " For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died."
1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially for the believer"
Col 1:19-22 " God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus"
1 Cor 15:28 "God will be all in all"
That is determinism as told by scripture.
Please explain why you think my reasoning is faulty.

Maybe you should tell me where you are disagreeing with me first, so I can know where you are at maybe?

We don't know if universalism can be true or not, since we are supposed to hold out hope for all, just like Jesus did while he was here, but we also know just like Jesus did, that it is just a prayer and a hope, that it's probably not going to be all also, etc. But "All things are possible with God" (The Father) though, etc. And that is, in fact, what Jesus specifically said when he was asked about it also, etc. (Which also means he didn't fully know while he was here also) (and we don't get to know more than Jesus did while he was here either way it goes either, etc) (so we must hold out hope for "all" also, etc) (cause it's the loving thing to do, etc) (even if in our hearts we know it's not very likely, etc) (and there would have been no reason for even talking about people not being saved, or going to hell, etc).

God the Highest Father knows and always knew though, and even always caused/causes it all from before any new creation began or ever begins, or from eternity always, etc. From that One's perspective all (everything and everyone's fates, and every little detail in-between) is all already fully known and decided (by Him) already (and how He knows this is because the universe is deterministic) and is why it is eternal always also, and cannot be changed, but it is not that way from our perspective yet, and won't be ever until we are where He is and has always been always, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jipsah]

Try again. . .peasants and elites are all human and equal in justice.

Humans and God are not equal, the divine is not equal to the human in justice.

Too much shooting-from-the-hip and not enough being-informed in metaphsical matters.

It’s still a made- up concept, innit? Nothing of the sort in Scripture

 

[Jipsah]

Jesus believed in determinism, and the fact that all is/was predestined/predetermined, and in fact, he was the first to discover/know this.

Well, that's it, then, innit? Nothing you think, do, or say makes an iota of difference. You're fate is what it is, end of.

I see, your a universalist. Well. I hate to tell you, you're wrong

Yeah. God created some of us to burn forever, and there's an end of it. In the end, Christs's sacrifice means nothing at all, because the whole thing was decided a priori.

, and are not basing your ideas on the truth of scriptur and what Jesus believed in/taught.

Why did He bother? It was all planned out ahead of time.

It's not because God couldn't get the job done, but only because temporary evil people in every single creation when each is made or each is created are always needed/necessary for (or during) the time/times when they are still fallen temporarily still, but are no longer necessary when they are not.

So they're NPCs who serve some prspose in thre Great Scheme things,and then are chucked into the fire to burn forever because that was their intended purpose all along. Cold comfort there, innit? Welty's "Misfit" had it right all along, didn't he?

They were always meant to be like that, and cannot change their fates from God's perspective

So enjoy the time you have, becaise eternity is gonna be serioisly bad.

, but from our perspective, they always still can

Really? Howzat work? If there fated for eternal torment, and hiope they have of anything better is simply nonexistent. They're gonna burn. Too bad, mate, that was your purpose all along.

, but that is only because we do not know what God already knows

So the domed don't realize it until they're chucked into the fire. Wow,

and already caused from God's perspective of knowing all (things) already, etc. From God's perspective, and under determinism, they could never change it, like ever, in any of the creations, which is why it is eternal, etc.

If that's true, then everything is futile, innit? Might as well close all the churches, nothing's gonna c hange.

If we knew everything God knows, then there probably wouldn't ever be much of a reason for us to ever do or ever try to change anything,

There's not in any case. If you're doomed. you're doomed, and whether you know it or not is irrelevant.

(individual/collective fates, etc), but because we don't, and never do, there always is a very, very good reason to always try to do that

Why? It makes no difference. Why waste time doing anything that doesn't make our relatively better existence here more pleasant. It's the only good memories we'll ever have.

You've just painted the portrait of God as Implacable Monster in unmistakable terms. For God so loved the world that He created the majority of His creatures for the sole purpose if being tormented forever. Nice.

 

[Neogaia777]

You guys are just not getting it/listening.

I'm writing a book about it, cause it seems I'm going to need to write a book about it. I'll let you know when it's out.

Because of that, I might be away from here for a little while though, etc.

God Bless.

 

[David Lamb]

Why did Jesus pray to the Father and ask that we be made one with him as he and the Father are one?
Please show me from scripture that you are getting this thinking from it and not from mans thinking.

For whom was Jesus praying when He prayed? Not everybody in the world, but those whm the Father had given Him:

“6 ¶ “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 ¶ “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.” (Joh 17:6-11 NKJV)

He specifies in the prayer that He is not praying for the world (see verse 9).

 

[Matt5]

I ask you how does God losing most of his creation and then having to burn it forever bring glory to God?
Does not the idea that God knew what he was doing, and had a plan, and had all that it would take to accomplish the plan, to bring all his creation into a love with him, forever and sin and death are no more, and God will be all in all. Does this not bring more glory to God?

The whole eternal hell thing with the weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the return of Jesus. Just like a lot of verses that make no sense concerning the return of Jesus, verses about eternal hell make no logical sense. Something else is going on.

Matthew 13 explains the reason for the incomprehensible language: Even if you knew the truth, you wouldn't believe it. So the truth has been withheld.

The parable of the talents explains. Given that that parable is largely incomprehensible, one has to go outside the Bible in order to understand it. Basically, you have to be close to actual events in order to understand it. We are close enough right now.

Shortly before the return of Jesus there will be great upheaval as most of the planet is wiped out in nuclear wars. These are the harvests as mentioned in the parable of the talents. If you just sit around and do nothing - play the lazy servant, then you are likely to be caught up in these nuclear wars (harvests.) You will be tossed into hell with the weeping and gnashing of teeth, according to the parable. But death by radiation looks a lot like this hell: there is weeping, then screaming and gnashing of teeth because the pain level ramps up to 10 for days. Each second will seem like eternity. In fact, death will play out from 3 days to 3 weeks depending on exposure.

Luke 16:24 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

The rich man wants water because he is in fact still alive. He is dying from radiation with no one to care for him. His pain level is 10. He will die within days.

 

[Clare73]

It’s still a made- up concept, innit? Nothing of the sort in Scripture

No. . .it's God's "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" justice of Scripture.

It's the nature of justice. . .meaning the magnitude of offense (debt) to the infinite can be remedied only by an infinite payment.

That's why the atoning sacrifice had to be divine.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

For whom was Jesus praying when He prayed? Not everybody in the world, but those whm the Father had given Him:

“6 ¶ “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 ¶ “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.” (Joh 17:6-11 NKJV)

He specifies in the prayer that He is not praying for the world (see verse 9).

John 13:3 " Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father."
So Jesus tells us who the Father had given him and it is all things, not just a few. God does not do abandonment he created all and nothing will stop him from redeeming all, this will take time but God is not bound by time.

 

[Clare73]

John 13:3 " Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands-

Yes, the execution of all that God ordained. . .and God ordained that whose who believed in Jesus would be saved and those who did not would be condemned (Jn 3:18).

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No. . .it's God's "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" justice of Scripture.

It's the nature of justice. . .meaning the magnitude of offense (debt) to the infinite can be remedied only by an infinite payment.

That's why the atoning sacrifice had to be divine.

Did not Jesus upend the whole " an eye for and eye thing" that idea of justice was fulfilled in Jesus, now we are under grace, where sin abounds grace abounds all the more.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Maybe you should tell me where you are disagreeing with me first, so I can know where you are at maybe?

We don't know if universalism can be true or not, since we are supposed to hold out hope for all, just like Jesus did while he was here, but we also know just like Jesus did, that it is just a prayer and a hope, that it's probably not going to be all also, etc. But "All things are possible with God" (The Father) though, etc. And that is, in fact, what Jesus specifically said when he was asked about it also, etc. (Which also means he didn't fully know while he was here also) (and we don't get to know more than Jesus did while he was here either way it goes either, etc) (so we must hold out hope for "all" also, etc) (cause it's the loving thing to do, etc) (even if in our hearts we know it's not very likely, etc) (and there would have been no reason for even talking about people not being saved, or going to hell, etc).

God the Highest Father knows and always knew though, and even always caused/causes it all from before any new creation began or ever begins, or from eternity always, etc. From that One's perspective all (everything and everyone's fates, and every little detail in-between) is all already fully known and decided (by Him) already (and how He knows this is because the universe is deterministic) and is why it is eternal always also, and cannot be changed, but it is not that way from our perspective yet, and won't be ever until we are where He is and has always been always, etc.

God Bless.

You said I needed to rethink the idea that God gets more glory out of not losing any, not more glory by creating and burning forever most of his creation.

 

[Clare73]

Did not Jesus upend the whole " an eye for and eye thing" that idea of justice was fulfilled in Jesus, now we are under grace, where sin abounds grace abounds all the more.

For those of faith in him, Jesus rendered the required "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth," which required perfect divine reparation, a sinful human one not being adequate nor acceptable. . .

 

[Jeff Saunders]

For those of faith in him, Jesus rendered the required "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth," which required perfect divine reparation, a sinful human one not being adequate nor acceptable. . .

I do not have a clue what you are getting at, sorry.