6,000 Years?

[trophy33]

Of course they are signs, but they are not astrology. When you look at the sky and say it will rain, you are not practicing a pagan worship. When you look at cards in a deck and say a flood will destroy your home, you are practicing a pagan worship. I think you know the difference.

See the post #817. The Sun, the Moon and the stars were not meant to be signs for raining (how...?), but for significant events on Earth.

I think you are confusing the stars, the Sun and the Moon with sky and clouds. Astronomical objects are not signs for weather.

 

[Jerry N.]

Times and seasons are not signs. See the post #817

It was just an example of human observation (science) and the difference with paganism. I read #817 twice, and I don’t see your point, except that you seem to contradict yourself. You asked David Lamb if he believed in astrology since he believes that signs in the heavens are useful for things that have little or nothing to do with astrology. (#811)

 

[Jerry N.]

By the way, times and season are signs. If you look at your calendar and see that it is Friday, it is a sign like every word in every language.

 

[trophy33]

By the way, times and season are signs. If you look at your calendar and see that it is Friday, it is a sign like every word in every language.

The text says times, seasons and signs. Three things.

 

[trophy33]

It was just an example of human observation (science) and the difference with paganism. I read #817 twice, and I don’t see your point, except that you seem to contradict yourself. You asked David Lamb if he believed in astrology since he believes that signs in the heavens are useful for things that have little or nothing to do with astrology. (#811)

My point is simple. Genesis 1 is a cultural text influenced by the Babylonian worldview. As we today know that the Earth is not flat, that stars are not just lights in the firmament and that the Earth is not 6,000 years old, so also we do not stick to astrology, because we know that the astronomical objects obey the laws of motion.

But if somebody reads the Genesis 1 as a literal, perfectly inspired factual claims, many issues arise.

 

[Jerry N.]

The text says times, seasons and signs. Three things.

Seasons are times, and they are both signs of events.

My point is simple. Genesis 1 is a cultural text influenced by the Babylonian worldview. As we today know that the Earth is not flat, that stars are not just lights in the firmament and that the Earth is not 6,000 years old, so also we do not stick to astrology, because we know that the astronomical objects obey the laws of motion.

But if somebody reads the Genesis 1 as a literal, perfectly inspired factual claims, many issues arise.

We can go in circle with those issues forever, as been done on other threads. However, I would like to point out that Genesis is not just a text from some history book. It contains many important truths that go beyond the simple narrative. You probably can’t see them, but they confirm the divine inspiration to those who can. However, those truths are not the subject of this thread, so I’ll let you argue with somebody who is willing to go in those circles with you.

 

[trophy33]

Seasons are times, and they are both signs of events.

NASB 1995
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

 

[Jerry N.]

NASB 1995
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

You listed some of the other signs in #817.

 

[David Lamb]

Dave you want to know something...organized religion of all beliefs are losing converts. Its because if the bible said the earth was flat, and you were taken up into the space station and saw it was round, you would still argue its flat cause the bible said its so. That is not faith, that is ignorance. The truth is the bible as we know it was created at Council of Nicaea, held in 325 AD. They took all the religious documents put it together, removed, and edited and translated it into 100s of languages, by human beings, and currently has over 750 different version in print today. Now depending on the translation, a word or phrase can mean several different things. So were to believe the writing off fisherman and goatherders who could not write or read and passed there story's by word of mouth. I mean the writings for the new testament were not put on paper till about 70 plus years after Jesus's is death...meaning the entire New Testament was written by people who did not even know Jesus or the Apostles. Now I believe in God...not because of the bible but because the Universe is far to complex to have come about by chance. I believe the bible to be many things...part historical fact, part the myths of the Jewish people, and a guide on how to have a relationship with god. But medical science, archeology, astronomy, biology, has debunked a good portion of the bible...that is not fairytale that is fact.

But the bible does not say that the earth is flat. So I don't "argue it's flat cause the bible said its so" as you suggest. I don't agree that the bible was "Created at Council of Nicaea, held in 325 AD." The Old Testament was already in use by the Jews many hundreds of years before that. Even the New Testament was in use before Nicaea. I agree that translations of the bible differ, which is why concordances can be helpful to help us see the meanings of the original Greek or Hebrew words. And no, the New Testament was not entirely "written by people who did not even know Jesus or the Apostles." Matthew was himself an apostle. Mark knew Paul, an apostle. Luke says he knew eyewitnesses:

“Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,” (Lu 1:1-2 NKJV)

John, who wrote a gospel, 3 epistles and Revelation was an apostle. Paul, Peter and John wrote most of the epistles, and they were all apostles. So what part of the New Testament are you saying was written by "people who did not even know Jesus or the Apostles?"

 

[Jerry N.]

"According to "The Oxford Handbook of Religious Conversion", in mid-2005 approximately 15.5 million converted to Christianity from another religion, approximately 11.7 million left Christianity, and most of them became irreligious, resulting in a net gain of 3.8 million.[21] Christianity added about 65.1 million people due to factors such as birth rate and religious conversion, while it lost 27.4 million people due to factors such as death rate and religious apostasy in mid-2005. Most of the net growth in the numbers of Christians is in Africa, Latin America and Asia."

Christian population growth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Dave you want to know something...organized religion of all beliefs are losing converts. Its because if the bible said the earth was flat, and you were taken up into the space station and saw it was round, you would still argue its flat cause the bible said its so. That is not faith, that is ignorance. The truth is the bible as we know it was created at Council of Nicaea, held in 325 AD. They took all the religious documents put it together, removed, and edited and translated it into 100s of languages, by human beings, and currently has over 750 different version in print today. Now depending on the translation, a word or phrase can mean several different things. So were to believe the writing off fisherman and goatherders who could not write or read and passed there story's by word of mouth. I mean the writings for the new testament were not put on paper till about 70 plus years after Jesus's is death...meaning the entire New Testament was written by people who did not even know Jesus or the Apostles. Now I believe in God...not because of the bible but because the Universe is far to complex to have come about by chance. I believe the bible to be many things...part historical fact, part the myths of the Jewish people, and a guide on how to have a relationship with god. But medical science, archeology, astronomy, biology, has debunked a good portion of the bible...that is not fairytale that is fact.

Your historical research in regard to the bible is a little off here, particularly in respect to the role the Council of Nicaea had in "creating" the bible. You might want to lower your tone so as not to appear overly assured about details that not only may not be quite accurate, but are also misplaced in relevance.

While you're at it, it may do you some good to grab a copy of the book, The Canon Debate - editors Lee Martin McDonald and James A Sanders.

 

[davetaff]

Hi
Why do people keep going back to what God created before the flood God destroyed everything he created before the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark so when Noah stepped of the ark God had a clean slate the only thing he needed to create was man in his image the first man he created was Israel.
The word man should be understood as mankind so mankind would be created after the pattern of Israel.

Moses represents God the Father
Aaron " Jesus through whom all things are created
Levites " the bride of Christ the church those Chosen by God
The twelve tribes the children of God those created by Christ and his bride

This is how mankind will be created

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Amo2]

A couple of good videos by YEC's. One addressing the word day in the Genesis creation account, and the other regarding astronomy and the revelations from the James Webb telescope. YEC's made accurate predictions about what has been revealed by James Webb, while deep timers expectations turned out to be wrong.

 

[Job 33:6]

A couple of good videos by YEC's. One addressing the word day in the Genesis creation account, and the other regarding astronomy and the revelations from the James Webb telescope. YEC's made accurate predictions about what has been revealed by James Webb, while deep timers expectations turned out to be wrong.

Is there a reason YECs keep repeating the same incorrect arguments?

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

Genesis doesn't say how long the earth was without form before God began to create it.

 

[Amo2]

I do not want you to address many issues in one sentence or in one post. I want you to address one issue, to make one point, one argument per post.

Or else it is not effective. If I do not agree with the first sentence of yours, the A4 of following verses and texts and thoughts is useless. And reacting to sentence after sentence would be exhausting.

If you feel a need to be verbose, one good ethical way how to do it is from ethical journalism - formulating a good summary in the beginning and providing details after that, for those interested. Those who are not (based on the summary) do not need to read the rest of the article to find out what it is about.

Asking you to say it in one sentence was a hypoerbole, to express that your posts are too verbose.

Well, as should be obvious to all that have been around for a bit, we can't always get what we want. My exact point on many occasions, is to point out just how many scientific observations support and or prove a YEC world view or faith. Which points also bring up many serious questions regarding the presumptions of those of the deep timers world views or faith. You of course do not have to read or respond to anything I post. Nevertheless, freedom of speech and expression, does certainly require patience toward others who simply are not like us in many ways and or at all. I have no desire to be controlled or boxed within parameters of discussion or debate that someone else wishes to impose upon me or others. Nor do I wish to bound others with my own self created and or imposed rules of engagement as it were. If I cannot relate to the way someone else addresses issues, I am of course free not to read and or enter into discussion with them. Which I believe to be a better course of action than trying to control how they wish to express themselves or address this or that issue. Unless of course their methods are rude or intentionally insulting. I do not intend or seek to offend, but simply defend my own faith and or world views.

No one has to read anything I write. To the contrary though, every single person who goes through our educational system is forced to endure countless hours of deep timers faith based presumptions, as scientific fact. I'm sure some should be able to endure some slightly lengthy posts of an opposite view, if they so choose. That last part being the key difference between what millions are forced to endure regarding deep timers faith, and what a very small handful might choose to endure or not on these message boards. I'm sorry you do not like the way I address these issues, but I'm glad you don't even have to read and or address them as well. Have a happy.

 

[Amo2]

Is there a reason YECs keep repeating the same incorrect arguments?

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

Genesis doesn't say how long the earth was without form before God began to create it.

Nor are creationists addressing what was without shape or form before creation. We are addressing creation, not what was before it. Whatever it was, it was without shape or form, which counts out a sphere which is in fact a shape and form. We do not know, and I do not believe most creationists are attempting to say we do know. This is a deep timers claim, not a YEC one. YEC's mainly address that described in Genesis regarding the last in and around 6000 years. If there are YEC's attempting to explain such, they will no doubt have to make presumptions as deep timers do. Presumptions though, never equal scientific fact. The video by the astronomer, mentions the waters which God separated at creation, but does not attempt to address what they were.

 

[Job 33:6]

Nor are creationists addressing what was without shape or form before creation. We are addressing creation, not what was before it. Whatever it was, it was without shape or form, which counts out a sphere which is in fact a shape and form. We do not know, and I do not believe most creationists are attempting to say we do know. This is a deep timers claim, not a YEC one. YEC's mainly address that described in Genesis regarding the last in and around 6000 years. If there are YEC's attempting to explain such, they will no doubt have to make presumptions as deep timers do. Presumptions though, never equal scientific fact. The video by the astronomer, mentions the waters which God separated at creation, but does not attempt to address what they were.

The earth was obviously without shape and form when God began, without any further details on how long it was in that state beforehand. What it was, as the Bible plainly states, is the earth:
Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

It's still the earth, even when it was formless. It's not as though it was something else.

 

[Job 33:6]

YEC's mainly address that described in Genesis regarding the last in and around 6000 years.

Well, if the Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless and empty before God began to create it, that is before the 6,000 years, then on what basis are they even YEC?

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

If I said, when I began to make a clay pot, the pot was formless, lumpy and empty and then I said, someone hand me a puddy knife, and I made the pot in 6 hours (molded it in the first 1-3 hours and filled it with water in hours 4-6).

You wouldn't logically then turn to me and say that the pot was only 6 hours old, because I never said how long the pot was formless and empty before I began to mold it and fill it with water.

 

[Amo2]

The earth was obviously without shape and form when God began, without any further details on how long it was in that state beforehand. What it was, as the Bible plainly states, is the earth:
Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

It's still the earth, even when it was formless. It's not as though it was something else.

I have feel no compulsion to debate that which scripture has given us so very little information about. I do however believe the following scriptures.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 13 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have feel no compulsion to debate that which scripture has given us so very little information about. I do however believe the following scriptures.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 13 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

There's nothing to debate. You just read what it says:

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

The earth was formless when God began. How long it was formless, we don't know. So where do YECs get their YEC beliefs from? Obviously not the Bible.

Did YECs decide to take on the fight against the world's scientists before actually reading the Bible?

Unfortunately so. Therein lies the simple issue. They didn't start with God's Word.