NBC: Gov. Abbott asks USDA to approve waiver banning junk food purchases with SNAP benefits

[durangodawood]

I’ve never been attached to social media. I suspect it’s because I came online when chat was popular and got it out of my system. By the time social media arrived my desire to communicate was gone. I was all talked out. I use it professionally but outside of that I stick to educational content. I’m very intentional about my feed. If it isn’t adding to my knowledge or helping me develop a skill or improving my work or resources I don’t follow them because it’s built to distract and I know it. Why would I go along?

When I saw the promos on the metaverse I prioritized life outside of this realm and chose to live counterculturally. The more technology invades our lives the more I do otherwise. I used to play a bingo game and saw how much money was being spent on the platform and quit. I chided myself for being there and reminded myself I invest in the technology but don’t partake.

I view them all as tools and they have their place but it doesn’t supersede daily living or human relationships. It’s important to be able to cut things off and that’s a quality I require in myself. When you see it for what it is you’ll avoid the snare or become a slave if you don’t. You have to bring yourself under subjection to survive this age. That’s easiest when self-preservation is a natural instinct. You have less difficulty saying no and denying yourself. The christian correlation is self-control.

~bella

Bella you are a model of self control and self direction. I wish everyone could make the leap to where you are. But unwinding bad habits and developing good ones is a long road for..... probably most people. Especially when they lack good role models around them.

 

[DaisyDay]

All foods have a season when prices are lower and it follows the calendar. That’s why I recommended a home economics class. Chicken is cheaper in the winter after the holidays. I bought a 40 pound box of wings during that period and spoilage was moot. There are things you buy at certain points of the year for better prices, weather conditions or to get ahead of increase like tariffs or expected shortages.

~bella

40 lb box of chicken - I'm assuming you have a car rather than public transportation? One of the really good things about living in Manhattan and Queens was that there were plenty of green grocers, fish marts, bakeries and butcher shops - but one always had to keep in mind that a long walk then up five flights of stairs was limiting.

Living in the suburbs was much more difficult for pedestrians. Even people with cars were limited to chain grocery stores which had very meager fresh vegetables. Frozen veggies were the way to go for variety and nutrition.

 

[RDKirk]

I worked in a food desert on an organic farm designed to combat the issue and the only people who brought their lunch were me and the staff. The rest went to the local grease spot while spending their day picking vegetables and learning about nutrition and we didn’t pay for our produce. I did the tours for groups and donors and know the problem well.

There’s a lot of poor people planting gardens. Whether it’s their own or another they’re working with and sharing resources. There’s a lot of poor people making bread and simple meals from scratch and most of their households are larger than the majority. It’s a question of mindset and priorities.

I live that life and I know who I see at those places, on the screen and in the comments. There’s Walmart and Aldi hauls all over YouTube. They show you what they bought and how to use it. There’s videos on frugal cooking and depression era recipes. We’ve never had more information than we do today to accommodate all income levels.

People always traveled for food in the city. Less expensive options or the ones who sold to consumers (at a discount) weren’t in their area. We bought in bulk long before Costco and Sam’s Club. There was a place for meat, fish, vegetables and so on. The only ones who didn’t shop like that were those in affluent areas. They valued convenience over savings.

We sold at the farmers market I frequent to this day. We weren’t allowed to say the prices were cheaper elsewhere. We pay a premium to accomodate those with less. Same items, growing conditions and volume. The only difference in price is the zip code.

~bella

You're still talking anectodally.

 

[bèlla]

Bella you are a model of self control and self direction. I wish everyone could make the leap to where you are. But unwinding bad habits and developing good ones is a long road for..... probably most people. Especially when they lack good role models around them.

I have my moments but they’re calculated. ;-)

Social media would never be a snare because it doesn’t feed the unwholesome parts of me. I don’t struggle with lust or greed that’s why it isn’t a problem. Those are the primary influences in that medium. When you consider your vices you have to weigh the consequences. I won’t sacrifice my resources or reputation and that eliminates a lot. But there’s room for sin nonetheless but it doesn’t entice me because I know it’s wrong even when I fail.

Some people love to be bad and flout rules but I’m not like that. I prefer to be a good girl and distinguish myself that way instead. And there’s a lot of spoils that come with that I wouldn’t have if I behaved otherwise. That’s who I am naturally and my faith gives me greater incentives to conform.

It helps when you have people around you who follow suit. I don’t befriend people with my vices or temptations. It’s counterproductive. That required me to relinquish my connections. I wanted a specific life and the bonds were an impediment. The people in my ear are a reflection of my beliefs and what I’m working towards. It’s a living lasagna if you will. Every layer reinforces the goal and you tweak it as needed.

Breaking habits is easy once you admit you like it and what you’re getting out of it. You have to know what it’s feeding and protecting you from before you count the cost. The latter is meant to jar and force you ask is it worth it and face the music. And that’s when change will follow.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

You're still talking anectodally.

Since you believe it’s anecdotal. What group are you referring to? Say their name.

~bella

 

[iluvatar5150]

All foods have a season when prices are lower and it follows the calendar.

No, "all foods" don't. Some do. But at least where I typically shop, things seem to be industrialized enough that it's the minority of products that fluctuate seasonally like that, and it's usually the things that are seasonal. For example, my preferred stores have strawberries and blueberries year round - sourced from where, I have no idea. They could be shipped in from Mars for all I know. But their available and their price is consistent year-round. They'll also get local stuff when it's in season. The local stuff does fluctuates in price, but it fluctuates a lot more in availability.

That’s why I recommended a home economics class. Chicken is cheaper in the winter after the holidays.

I have never seen chicken drop in price after holidays, unless you're talking about surplus whole birds going on sale the day after Christmas. In fact, chicken prices for me have been remarkably stable for the last 20 years or so. I try to hit those sales (esp brisket the day after St Patricks Day) and IME, you have to get pretty lucky. Any decent buyer (i.e. the guy working for the store) is going to order just enough product to meet demand and no more, precisely so they don't have to blow it out.

I bought a 40 pound box of wings during that period and spoilage was moot.

Spoilage came up in the context of carrying groceries on a bus. Are you telling me that you carried 40 lb of chicken on a bus?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I see where a few have brought up the "Food Desert" argument...while there was a time where that may have been more factual, that's not the situation we're in today.

John McWhorter did a good piece on that a few years back

https://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132076786/the-root-the-myth-of-the-food-desert

He touches on why discounting "food cultures and habits" and blaming it all on "proximity to a proper grocery store" is missing half the equation.

The individual things he mentioned as the case studies are Fairway Market/Healthier Bodega initiatives they tried in New York.

The prevailing social justice logic was that because lower income people could only buy food from places that were in walking distance, that was forcing them to only be left with unhealthy choices. So through public grants, and subsidization, they expanded the number of Fairway grocery stores (and offered free shuttle services to and from them), and added publicly subsidized produce sections to Bodegas.

After a few years, it made no difference on obesity rates in the area. Lots of people went shopped at the Fairway stores, and I'm sure enjoyed the shuttle service, but they still weren't buying the produce. And only one in 4 of the participating Bodegas reported produce getting purchased.


It'd be like expecting people to get leaner by offering carrots as an option at McDonalds... Most people are still going to get the burger and fries. People need to have a reason to "want" to get the carrots instead.


I've touched on it before, but even when you take race and income level off the table, there are some "food cultures" that lend themselves to bigger waistlines. I've cited it here before, but even when you control for race, location, and income level, Baptists have higher obesity rates than every other religious group.

For those of us who ever grew up in a Baptist church, we know the answer to why that is... it's things like the Sunday after-service pot luck lunches (that was basically unhealthy buffet), and the mountain of pizza, cookies, and Pepsi that would show up for the Wednesday night youth group meetings.

My one grandma's pastor at her old church used to even tell the joke "Southern Baptist is the 2nd most popular religion around here, right behind fried food"


And while it may not be popular to say, I do think there is, at least in a certain number of cases, some level of connection between the lack of discipline/drive that could land someone in a sub-par financial situation, and the lack of discipline and drive that could land someone in a sub-par health situation.

Sometimes you can even observe that dynamic among siblings in the same family.

 

[Richard T]

This should prove to be very interesting because Congress is likely to become very involved because Coke and other companies will be lobbying (and spending) heavily to maintain the status quo. It is a good idea though. I have not been around food banks much but I am guessing few hand out soda pop and energy drinks. The school lunch program never allows such stuff either so why should SNAP be any different?

 

[durangodawood]

....And while it may not be popular to say, I do think there is, at least in a certain number of cases, some level of connection between the lack of discipline/drive that could land someone in a sub-par financial situation, and the lack of discipline and drive that could land someone in a sub-par health situation.....

When you start poor, the lack of discipline has worse consequences than when you start out well off. Lots of people basically coast through quite good schools just sort of dragged along by the currents of their environment. Typically, this lands them in a much better situation than if theyd brought the same mentality to a low resources, low achievement environment.

I do think theres a component of individual will that must be activated to do really well or to keep from dire circumstances. But I think, population wise, thats overrated, while environment and social expectations are underrated.

 

[durangodawood]

....For those of us who ever grew up in a Baptist church, we know the answer to why that is....

And here you basically validate my thought above. How you grew up trumps the unlikelihood of personal heroics for the typical person.

I love a story of the strong willed individual who bulls themself out of adversity and social conditioning. Its such a great feeling anecdote. But I think, population wise, humans are average.

 

[RDKirk]

Since you believe it’s anecdotal. What group are you referring to? Say their name.

~bella

I'm talking about the collection of "big data," not just personal experiences.
I've got personal experiences of my own, but there's no point to a battle of personal experiences.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

When you start poor, the lack of discipline has worse consequences than when you start out well off. Lots of people basically coast through quite good schools just sort of dragged along by the currents of their environment. Typically, this lands them in a much better situation than if theyd brought the same mentality to a low resources, low achievement environment.

I do think theres a component of individual will that must be activated to do really well or to keep from dire circumstances. But I think, population wise, thats overrated, while environment and social expectations are underrated.

Two stats that come to mind

Smoking

• Among men, 41.1% of those with incomes below the federal poverty level smoke, compared to 23.7% of men with incomes at or above the poverty level.
• Among women, 32.5% with incomes below the poverty level smoke, versus 18.3% with incomes at or above the poverty level

And the purchase of lottery tickets

• Households earning less than $30,000 spend about $412 per year on lottery tickets, nearly four times as much as households earning $75,000 or more, who spend only $105 per year.
• About 28% of Americans earning less than $30,000 play the lottery at least once a week, compared to much lower rates among higher earners.
• The lowest fifth of socioeconomic status (SES) has the highest lottery gambling rate (61%) and the highest mean number of days gambled per year (26.1 days), while upper SES groups have rates of 42–43% and about 10 days per year.
• People earning less than $10,000 per year spend an average of $797 annually on lottery tickets, which is about 8% of their income

So there are some habits that need to be broken and better decisions a lot of people could be making that are currently exacerbating their financial issues.

Like with many other things, I think we (as a society) need to recognize the line between sympathetically respecting someone's dignity - and enabling.

That's one area that Obama acknowledged (to the chagrin of some of his supporters), and tried to make a case for finding the right balance between "collective support" and promoting individual responsibility.

I could be misquoting, but I believe his quote was "programs can't replace parents or good decision making"

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And here you basically validate my thought above. How you grew up trumps the unlikelihood of personal heroics for the typical person.

I love a story of the strong willed individual who bulls themself out of adversity and social conditioning. Its such a great feeling anecdote. But I think, population wise, humans are average.

But the things I'm referring to don't require the massive amount of willpower or resistance to social pressures as other aspects.

For instance, one that seems tough for people to break is religion.
Something like 70-80% of people end practicing the same religion as their parents (because there's a pretty big social cost associated with straying from the herd in some communities)

Things like "don't smoke cigarettes, cut back on the booze, cut back on the junk food, and if you're already short on cash, don't buy scratch offs" don't really have any "social consequences". In fact, quite the opposite. Usually quitting those things will get you a pat on the back from most people. (even other people who are still engaging in those things)


Tell your Baptist family you don't believe like they do and have no desire to participate in it anymore...you get yourself un-invited from a lot of social gatherings in the short term (speaking from experience on that -- although, they do get over it eventually)

Tell the other smokers in your family "Yeah, I quit smoking, haven't had one in 4 months", and usually it'd be a positive response.

 

[iluvatar5150]

But the things I'm referring to don't require the massive amount of willpower or resistance to social pressures as other aspects.

For instance, one that seems tough for people to break is religion.
Something like 70-80% of people end practicing the same religion as their parents (because there's a pretty big social cost associated with straying from the herd in some communities)

Things like "don't smoke cigarettes, cut back on the booze, cut back on the junk food, and if you're already short on cash, don't buy scratch offs" don't really have any "social consequences". In fact, quite the opposite. Usually quitting those things will get you a pat on the back from most people. (even other people who are still engaging in those things)


Tell your Baptist family you don't believe like they do and have no desire to participate in it anymore...you get yourself un-invited from a lot of social gatherings in the short term (speaking from experience on that -- although, they do get over it eventually)

Tell the other smokers in your family "Yeah, I quit smoking, haven't had one in 4 months", and usually it'd be a positive response.

Rich people get their fixes other ways.

And I think you’re downplaying the social pressure of just being around an activity. Even if other participants don’t care what you do, there’s often an intrinsic pull to join in. Heck, that’s why I play Fortnite. I don’t care about the game at all, but I do like chatting with my friends and when they’re all on PSN playing Fortnite, it’s easier to jump in and play with them. When they play Helldivers (which I don’t have and also don’t care about) while I play something else, there’s a noticeable difference in my level of engagement with them.

 

[bèlla]

No, "all foods" don't. Some do. But at least where I typically shop, things seem to be industrialized enough that it's the minority of products that fluctuate seasonally like that, and it's usually the things that are seasonal. For example, my preferred stores have strawberries and blueberries year round - sourced from where, I have no idea. They could be shipped in from Mars for all I know. But their available and their price is consistent year-round. They'll also get local stuff when it's in season. The local stuff does fluctuates in price, but it fluctuates a lot more in availability.

Just because something is available year round doesn’t mean it’s in season. The term applies to food grown in soil. Not hydroponically or imported. Most of the berries you get are the latter. Here’s a package of heirloom seeds. Look at the temperature and sun requirements. That isn’t possible in cooler weather and berries arrive when it’s warm.

I’m assuming you’ve never looked up the retail calendar for deals and aren’t aware it exists? The same holds true for food. If you look up your state on this site you’ll see what’s available every month. That’s a non industrial calendar and what you could produce at home with a garden.

I have never seen chicken drop in price after holidays, unless you're talking about surplus whole birds going on sale the day after Christmas. In fact, chicken prices for me have been remarkably stable for the last 20 years or so. I try to hit those sales (esp brisket the day after St Patricks Day) and IME, you have to get pretty lucky. Any decent buyer (i.e. the guy working for the store) is going to order just enough product to meet demand and no more, precisely so they don't have to blow it out.

I don’t shop at grocery stores anymore but the schedule holds true. I get most of my food from an independent provider that grows under their label and sources locally and around the globe. They offer everyday items in traditional sizes and bulk up to 50 pounds and have more variety than you’ll find elsewhere.

Spoilage came up in the context of carrying groceries on a bus. Are you telling me that you carried 40 lb of chicken on a bus?

I bought them from a butcher who specializes in bulk and serves restaurants. It isn’t far from me. But other purchases are further away and usually take an hour or so to arrive after the truck is emptied. I’m buying a box of salmon next month and I’m not concerned. But I wouldn’t get it in July or August. The same holds true for chocolate or frozen food.

When I’m refilling the larder I’m contemplating a year and know what I need up front. I have a one year plan for meals, supplies, canning and preserving. You can replenish it with bulk or a combination of that and weekly sales if you‘d like. You’ll never save money at a grocer in the long run. It’s designed for convenience. If you have the means to buy in volume and store it your per item/per pound costs are lower.

This is the best approach when you’re on a fixed income as is buying with others. You can pool your money with friends and buy your meat. The store buys the finished animal and butchers it themselves. You pay by the cut but the carcass is sold at a flat rate. You can eliminate the store and buy it direct and get the lower price. Knowledge is powerful whether you’re poor or not.

~bella

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think people may be overthinking this one a bit lol.

We can dive into the minutia of "which fruits and vegetables are in season", the spoilage rate of certain meat and dairy products during certain times of the year, etc...

But as a good baseline improvement, I don't think we need to get that precise.

A couple of simple facts:

A package of 24 bottled water is cheaper than a 12-pack of Coke.
Munching on some carrots is preferrable (and cheaper) than munching on some Ruffles.
You can get the grilled chicken equivalent of the pre-packaged frozen version of the "bake on a baking sheet for 20 minutes at 375" chicken for the same price as the breaded processed nuggets.

I mean, it sucks some times, but cost isn't the main barrier.

I'd love to wolf down pizza every night...nobody actually thinks that eating grilled chicken and asparagus tastes better than a crispy chicken sandwich and fries lol.

I think society would benefit a lot from the old school form of parenting when it comes to meals.

Now, we have the "well, I won't buy XYZ because they don't like it"... I'm not all that old, and I still remember the era where it was "This is what we're making for dinner, if you don't like it, ... well, goodnight then and we'll see you tomorrow at breakfast"

I think people have become conditioned to the idea that every meal they eat has to be "delicious" or satisfy some sort of craving. Fact Check: Some things that are better for you don't taste "amazing", and food is fuel.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Just because something is available year round doesn’t mean it’s in season.

The term applies to food grown in soil. Not hydroponically or imported. Most of the berries you get are the latter. Here’s a package of heirloom seeds. Look at the temperature and sun requirements. That isn’t possible in cooler weather and berries arrive when it’s warm.

I know. That was part of my point. Probably better than 90% of the produce available in my (upper-middle class, not-quite Whole Foods, but kind of aiming for that demographic) grocery store is not locally in-season. It's trucked in or otherwise industrialized to such a degree that the seasonal price fluctuations you're describing have been largely engineered into irrelevance.

I’m assuming you’ve never looked up the retail calendar for deals and aren’t aware it exists? The same holds true for food. If you look up your state on this site you’ll see what’s available every month. That’s a non industrial calendar and what you could produce at home with a garden.

Why do I need to look up a retail calendar when I've gone grocery shopping every week for the last 25 years? Stuff regularly stocked at large grocery chains (or at least at the ones I frequent) doesn't fluctuate to the degree you're claiming it does.

I know what can be grown in my area. Several people on my block, including my nextdoor neighbor, have replaced their entire front yards with some mix of food crops and wildflowers. I don't have the time or energy for that, or for dealing with the lead contamination in my soil. Also, I like having grass.

Frankly, I think the claims about being self-sufficient with one's own garden are largely overblown. A garden can certainly take the edge off, but I've yet to see anybody - even folks with acres of farmland and gardens - manage to completely replace their grocery store.

But anyways, I think we're well off-topic.

 

[Bradskii]

From the link:

'The governor said he wanted to prohibit SNAP benefits from being used to buy sweetened drinks and candy so that Texans can "lead healthy and productive lives" and requested the waiver "to prohibit the purchase of unhealthy, highly processed food using Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) benefits."

According to a report published by CNBC, USDA studies show that about 5% of SNAP benefits are spent on soda, and about 9% of SNAP spending goes toward “sweetened beverages,” which also include sports drinks, energy drinks, juices, and powder mixes.'

Let's go for common ground. Sweetened drinks, candy and potato chips plus their equivalent are out. Agreed?

 

[wing2000]

Let's go for common ground. Sweetened drinks, candy and potato chips plus their equivalent are out. Agreed?

Agreed. Incredibly, each of those categories account for an entire aile in the typical American grocery store.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Here is an idea. How about banning people from using EBT cards to buy anything that Michelle Obama wouldn't allow in a school cafeteria?