A Collision of Two Christianities

[fhansen]

It is such in the light of counterfeit faith (tares).

Of course. . .in obedience enabled by the Holy Spirit.

"Enabled" is a good word. Not caused or forced or coerced but now able to work out our salvation with He who works in us. And believers are likewise still able to fail to do so.

 

[RDKirk]

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John 12 is about praise from God. How are you getting God not praising a believer child to them not being saved.
In Matthew 10 there is also nothing about a believer who does not confess Jesus, being unsaved. Again Jesus' confession is a confession of praise and is connected to rewards.

Believers who deny Jesus will be denied praise and rewards from God. Peter denied Jesus three times, he did not lose his eternal life or was not a true believer (as many call it). Then Jesus restored him back into fellowship in the family of God, where Peter eventually became a strong leader.

Has This Passage Ever Bothered You? — Matthew 10:32-33 – Grace Evangelical Society

Is Confessing Christ a Condition of Salvation? – Matthew 10:32-33 – Grace Evangelical Society

Eternal Rewards and Denying Christ – Grace Evangelical Society

Deny Christ and Ruling with Him – Grace Evangelical Society

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

That is unsaved.

 

[d taylor]

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

That is unsaved.

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You are just adding that in the text just says deny before my Father. That can very well be the denying of rewards, if not Peter is in hel, l because Peter denied Jesus not just one time but three times.

 

[d taylor]

So, then, even the faith of the demons will save them? James is obviously saying that a faith without works/fruit will not cause them to be considered as righteous and, consequently, will not save them.

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Show me where demons are from the line of Adam and Eve. Because that is who Christ came and is offering Eternal Life salvation to.

 

[RDKirk]

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You are just adding that in the text just says deny before my Father. That can very well be the denying of rewards, if not Peter is in hel, l because Peter denied Jesus not just one time but three times.

Are you disputing that the Father is in heaven? But because you accused me of adding to scripture, here is a whole page of reference from various translations.

I'll expect an apology.

Matthew 10:33 - Confessing Christ

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

biblehub.com

 

[d taylor]

Are you disputing that the Father is in heaven? But because you accused me of adding to scripture, here is a whole page of reference from various translations.

I'll expect an apology.

Matthew 10:33 - Confessing Christ

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

biblehub.com

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You can really misunderstand. I mean it was your post i was replying to, you should know what you wrote,.

I will help you out. You wrote that Jesus states He will deny anyone who denies Him before men. Then you added in the idea that Jesus was talking about denying anyone who denies Jesus, eternal life salvation. You wrote that means unsaved.

So i replied that you added in the idea that Jesus was talking about unsaved. Because Jesus does not say that denying a person before The Father, means Jesus is denying that person eternal life salvation.

This will be my last post as i am tired of going back and forth, you can believe what you want.

 

[fhansen]

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Show me where demons are from the line of Adam and Eve. Because that is who Christ came and is offering Eternal Life salvation to.

And yet James saw fit to present and compare their faith to a faith that is alone, emphazing that such a faith is capable of saving no one. So, I'll repeat. "James is obviously saying that a faith without works/fruit will not cause them to be considered as righteous and, consequently, will not save them."

 

[d taylor]

And yet James saw fit to present and compare their faith to a faith that is alone, emphazing that such a faith is capable of saving no one. So, I'll repeat. "James is obviously saying that a faith without works/fruit will not cause them to be considered as righteous and, consequently, will not save them."

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You should add, In your opinion, because it is not actually stated in James 2 as this is what James is addressing.

 

[fhansen]

You should add, In your opinion, because it is not actually stated in James 2 as this is what James is addressing.

You shoud add, in your opinion...

 

[The Liturgist]

You can follow Jesus' teachings without ever having saving faith in him, as many do in this world.

If one lacks a salvific faith in our Lord they are not following all of his teachings but are rather selectively following them. Anyone who follows all the teachings of Christ our True God will be a member of His Church, baptized and receiving the Eucharist, the medicine of immortality, or will be trying to do as much and will thus be granted salvation according to His infinite mercy, through the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

 

[d taylor]

You shoud add, in your opinion...

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I am not the one who is saying James 2 is saying, demons can have eternal life salvation. They (demons) have belief, but just do not have works.

Which leads to you saying. Belief in Jesus does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Because demons have belief and they are not saved.

Even though in James, James does not say the demons believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. James just says they believe God is one, which is not a salvation belief that God has stated will give a person Eternal Life.

 

[fhansen]

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I am not the one who is saying James 2 is saying, demons can have eternal life salvation. They (demons) have belief, but just do not have works.

Which leads to you saying. Belief in Jesus does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Because demons have belief and they are not sav
Even though in James, James does not say the demons believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. James just says they believe God is one, which is not a salvation belief that God has stated will give a person Eternal Life.

I didn’t say they could have eternal life, my post implied just the opposite, in fact, as James did. And I doubt they could or would repent anyway if it was even possible. But James nonetheless used the example of their faith as one that is fruitless because that is the very point he was MAKING, and which you’re desperately trying to avoid, that faith alone would be WORTHLESS, yes, towards SALVATION as the demon verses follow and flow from that direct question about people in vs 14,
“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?”

 

[Clare73]

"Enabled" is a good word. Not caused or forced or coerced but now able to work out our salvation with He who works in us.
And believers are likewise still able to fail to do so.

It's not about ability, it's about being kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5), and his arm is never too short.

Like the sheep (those given to Jesus, Jn 6:39) are kept by the Good Shepherd (Jn 6:39, 10:38, 17:12, 18:9).

 

[fhansen]

It's not about ability, it's about being kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5), and his arm is never too short.

Like the sheep (those given to Jesus, Jn 6:39) are kept by the Good Shepherd (Jn 6:39, 10:38, 17:12, 18:9).

Oh, He has the power to do whatever he wants, but He won't keep us if we don't remain in Him, who don't remain faithful IOW. That's how He wants it. In 1 Pet 1:13-16 he goes on to instruct them on what they must do:

"Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

Conforming to evil desires will earn us one thing: death, whereas holiness will result in eternal life- Rom 6:21-22, Heb 12:14

 

[Clare73]

Oh, He has the power to do whatever he wants, but He won't keep us if we don't remain in Him,

You've got it backwards. . .you've got man in the sovereign God's wheelhouse (Da 4:35, as in 2 Kgs 19:28), instead of the sovereign God himself.

We remain in him because he keeps us (1 Pe 1:5).

And if he is not keeping us, we are not his own because our faith is countefeit and, therefore, we do not remain in him.

 

[fhansen]

You've got it backwards. . .you've got man in the sovereign God's wheelhouse (Da 4:35, as in 2 Kgs 19:28), instead of the sovereign God himself.

We remain in him because he keeps us (1 Pe 1:5).

And if he is not keeping us, we are not his own because our faith is countefeit and, therefore, we do not remain in him.

No, here's the proper understanding, from Augustine in this case,
“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.”

 

[Clare73]

No, here's the proper understanding, from Augustine in this case,
“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.

How is that different from what I said:

We remain in him because he keeps us (1 Pe 1:5).

And if he is not keeping us, we are not his own because our faith is counterfeit and, therefore, we do not remain in him.

 

[fhansen]

How is that different from what I said:

We remain in him because he keeps us (1 Pe 1:5).

And if he is not keeping us, we are not his own because our faith is counterfeit and, therefore, we do not remain in him.

Because it means they, the brothers and sisters Peter is addressing in this case, can resist and oppose God's work, His grace.

 

[Clare73]

Because it means they, the brothers and sisters Peter is addressing in this case, can resist and oppose God's work, His grace.

He keeps us by his grace causing us not to desire to resist and oppose his work.

 

[Clare73]

Because it means they, the brothers and sisters Peter is addressing in this case, can resist and oppose God's work, His grace.

But in actuality they don't when the Holy Spirit gives them to prefer otherwise, and so they freely choose what they prefer.

It's not about what "can be," it's about what, in actuality, "is."