Church words - are they legit or is there problems?

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, you meant to say, "They had the full teaching of Jesus directly. You and I don't"? That clears it up a bit.

But what I was most curious about is the concept that we don't learn anything from Jesus directly any more. He's not with us physically any longer, that's true, but do you think He is not directly teaching, leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the intimacy of our own hearts?

Like most Christians, I believe that the Lord, through the Holy Spirit, directs us in an essentially intangible way.

However, let's just say that even with Christian Pneumatology in tow, I'm under absolutely NO charismatic illusions whatsoever.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh I agree.

But if the person tells you what it is. Do you just take his word at face value, or do you study to make sure.

It depends on the person. Being that I'm an academically minded person, I have a battery of interrogatives to barrage that person with if he/she claims to "know" what the essence and pure definition of some biblical term is.

I know people who have went to seminary. and are church leaders who do not know what the word grace means. so what about them?

What about them? I'd have to have you relate to me EXACTLY what they've said to you for me to evaluate how adequate I think they have been in their hermeneutical method and in their actual understanding of the term 'grace.' I can't just take your word for it that they missed the boat. In fact, I never take just one person's word for much of anything, which is one reason I have about 30 books on Hermeneutics and Exegesis alone.

 

[Clare73]

I agree

But a common word can not be used against its common interpretation.

Where do we ever see such practice?

it is a tool God uses to help us to weed out false teachers or false beliefs.

God is not going to inspire a writer of his word to use a word to tell us something that has nothing to do with the word itself. or has a totally opposite meaning of the word used.

that's why the word can be trusted.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It depends on the person. Being that I'm an academically minded person, I have a battery of interrogatives to barrage that person with if he/she claims to "know" what the essence and pure definition of some biblical term is.

I would listen to a person. but I leaned along time ago. even my best friends and my church leaders can be wrong..

What about them? I'd have to have you relate to me EXACTLY what they've said to you for me to evaluate how adequate I think they have been in their hermeneutical method and in their actual understanding of the term 'grace.' I can't just take your word for it that they missed the boat. In fact, I never take just one person's word for much of anything, which is one reason I have about 30 books on Hermeneutics and Exegesis alone.

They think Grace is something we earn. That God works through these "works of grace"

Again, I do not need hermenuetics for this. I think sometimes we can just sit back and listen.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would listen to a person. but I leaned along time ago. even my best friends and my church leaders can be wrong..

You're right about that----friends and even church leaders can be wrong.

They think Grace is something we earn. That God works through these "works of grace"

Again, I do not need hermenuetics for this. I think sometimes we can just sit back and listen.

It sounds to me like what you're really wanting in the thread is a discussion on how to correctly interpret Paul's Letter to the Ephesians.

Y'know, I might even agree with you if you spell out your exegetical method for reading a biblical text.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where do we ever see such practice?

we have discussed it this whole thread.

people say eternal does not mean eternal

that grace is not something that is a gift. it must be earned

why do you think I opened this thread. to discuss why people do the things I have told.

people say the Eucharist is john 6. Yet NOTHING Jesus promised in John 6 is assured to anyone who eats it..in fact. You have to do much more than just take the eucharist if you want everything God promised to EVERYONE who ate it.. and even then it is not guaranteed.

that should cause us all to pause for a minute, and say why? Why would we think this

and that is why I opened this thread.

I had a person in another thread say he was attacked for saying he believes he must merit his salvation when he in no ways believes then.

I questioned the person. and he told me of all these works he had to do if he wanted to be saved.

Then I asked him why he would contradict himself and say he does not believe he must merit his salvation, when by his own words. he believes exactly that.

so is merit another one of those church words, which we do not take its literal translation.

Or is the guy confused..

I personally was confused for many years. Because I believed in their church words. and did not do the very thing I am claiming we should do

 

[Clare73]

we have discussed it this whole thread.

people say eternal does not mean eternal

Eternal life is eternal, but one's possession of it may not be, as in Adam.

that grace is not something that is a gift. it must be earned

I guess I missed that in this thread.

why do you think I opened this thread. to discuss why people do the things I have told.
people say the Eucharist is john 6. Yet NOTHING Jesus promised in John 6 is assured to anyone who eats it..in fact. You have to do much more than just take the eucharist if you want everything God promised to EVERYONE who ate it.. and even then it is not guaranteed.

"Eat" is to "take within" for "sustenance of life."

"Take within" and "sustenance of life" applies not only to food.

that should cause us all to pause for a minute, and say why? Why would we think this
and that is why I opened this thread.
I had a person in another thread say he was attacked for saying he believes he must merit his salvation when he in no ways believes then.
I questioned the person. and he told me of all these works he had to do if he wanted to be saved.
Then I asked him why he would contradict himself and say he does not believe he must merit his salvation, when by his own words. he believes exactly that.
so is merit another one of those church words, which we do not take its literal translation.
Or is the guy confused..
I personally was confused for many years. Because I believed in their church words. and did not do the very thing I am claiming we should do

Your mistake was not in ignorance of the words, but in ignorance of the Scriptures.

 

[timothyu]

The law said cursed is the one who does not obey every word

Meaning not obey the will of God. No need to micro-manage

If you think you are worthy

I didn't say that.. I said found worthy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're right about that----friends and even church leaders can be wrong.


It sounds to me like what you're really wanting in the thread is a discussion on how to correctly interpret Paul's Letter to the Ephesians.

No. Grace is written many places not just ephesians

And Grace is just one word not the only. As the open suggestion there were 4 words or phrases and a few more have been added

Y'know, I might even agree with you if you spell out your exegetical method for reading a biblical text.

This is about determining word meaning. Not exegesis.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No. Grace is written many places not just ephesians

Obviously. So.........................being that you're apparently refusing to answer my questions directly, I'm going to take your statement here as a hermeneutical insinuation: that we can (and maybe should) look for all of the instances of the term "grace" in the New Testament we can.

However, what if a person doesn't know what the English word 'grace' [i.e. G-R-A-C-E] is. Are you assuming that they should have an English dictionary at hand as a reference?

Do we want to further assume that a neophyte in biblical reading will know which of several denotations in the Webster's dictionary captures the meaning that the New Testament writers intended to convey? Should the neophyte biblical reader also have a New Testament Greek dictionary instead by which to further elucidate the meaning of the Koine Greek term that we translate as 'grace' in English?

And Grace is just one word not the only. As the open suggestion there were 4 words or phrases and a few more have been added

Yeah, but you said early on that we aren't talking about reading verses. Without reading verses, in fact without reading entire passages, or really entire letters or books, and without dictionaries at hand for reference, I'm failing to see how just attempting to understand an English term in the Bible, like Grace, is going to be completely self-evident.

This is about determining word meaning. Not exegesis.

And which comes first: the chicken or the egg? Do you have a method for reading and understanding the Bible that should be universal?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternal life is eternal, but one's possession of it may not be, as in Adam.

Adam never had eternal life I am not sure where you came up with this idea dam dis not need eternal Life he was in perfect standing with God

If one dies they never had eternal life

Eternal means forever you can’t tell someone they will live forever if they can still die. You would be lying

I guess I missed that in this thread.

Sorry it was mentioned earlier

"Eat" is to "take within" for "sustenance of life."

"Take within" and "sustenance of life" applies not only to food.

Yes in fact Jesus tells is that the food we should take in are his words. The words he speaks are spirit and life

And again Peter understood. “You have the words of eternal life

Your mistake was not in ignorance of the words, but in ignorance of the Scriptures.

Your mistake is listening to what you read taught and not looking at scriptures

Again. It does not matter if it is bread, Flesh, blood, or words we eat

What matter is do those who eat get what Jesus promised.

According to you it appears you do not believe they do

I disagree. They do (have) s I have as many have and will get when they too eat this bread from heaven

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Meaning not obey the will of God. No need to micro-manage

God micro manages. If you commit one sin no matter how small you are guilty unworthy

I didn't say that.. I said found worthy

No one will be found worthy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Obviously. So.........................being that you're apparently refusing to answer my questions directly, I'm going to take your statement here as a hermeneutical insinuation: that we can (and maybe should) look for all of the instances of the term "grace" in the New Testament we can.

However, what if a person doesn't know what the English word 'grace' [i.e. G-R-A-C-E] is. Are you assuming that they should have an English dictionary at hand as a reference?

Do we want to further assume that a neophyte in biblical reading will know which of several denotations in the Webster's dictionary captures the meaning that the New Testament writers intended to convey? Should the neophyte biblical reader also have a New Testament Greek dictionary instead by which to further elucidate the meaning of the Koine Greek term that we translate as 'grace' in English?

Yeah, but you said early on that we aren't talking about reading verses. Without reading verses, in fact without reading entire passages, or really entire letters or books, and without dictionaries at hand for reference, I'm failing to see how just attempting to understand an English term in the Bible, like Grace, is going to be completely self-evident.


And which comes first: the chicken or the egg? Do you have a method for reading and understanding the Bible that should be universal?

I am going to move on. over and over again you show you do not understand what I am trying to say or discuss

Thank you for your time

 

[timothyu]

God micro manages. If you commit one sin no matter how small you are guilty unworthy

We ALL are but only a few understand why

 

[timothyu]

No one will be found worthy.

Then I guess no ned to separate the sheep from the goats

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We ALL are but only a few understand why

No we are not

We are worthy. Of dearh.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then I guess no ned to separate the sheep from the goats

They are not separated because they are worthy. They are because he is worthy. And his righteousness was applied to them

He who believes is not condemned

 

[timothyu]

He who believes is not condemned

He who believes in His one and only Gospel of the Kingdom and His part in it, yes

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am going to move on. over and over again you show you do not understand what I am trying to say or discuss

Thank you for your time

Sure, you're welcome. I mean, as long as you're not advocating for "Free Grace," then I guess we can say we more or less agree about God's Grace in Christ.

But if you're advocating for "Free Grace," then I'd have to tell you that I'm going to lean toward referencing Wayne Grudem's book, "Free Grace" Theology: 5 Ways It Diminishes the Gospel (2016),

 

[Rose_bud]

Being a member of many christian chat rooms, and having conversation with many people all over the country about God and his word. I have come to notice that it appears there are some what I call "church words" or terms. These words, or terms seem to be taken outside of their actual definition, and appear to be given their own interpretation. I can remember many times (I just had one here this past week) where people will say something, and I wince, or an taken back, and I am like, "where did you get that interpretation from" And I know for a fact. I will say things to others. and get the same reaction from them. which tells me this is a great problem in the church.

I was wondering if anyone else notices this. and wanted to discuss some of these terms and see if we can see why people seem to have different interpretations of them, which appear to not follow the general interpretation of the word or words. but appear to mean something totally different.

I will first start a list of words I see where this happens. and hope others can add to this list. so we can take a deep dive into these words. Then lets try to take these words and see what the differences are. and why people have certain interpretations. and are these interpretations valid. As I think of these, I am sure some will cause alot of controversy, But I also must remember, the things of God are not our ways. And they are foolishness to the world.. which means in our flesh, they may sound foolish (I think we will see as we move forward)

A short list I have thought of the last few days

1. Grace
2. Eternal Life
3. Church
4. Saved or rescued.

Look forward to others ideas or input.

Hi Eternally grateful

I've been reading through the thread and I'm a bit confused with what exactly it is you are asking?

In the OP you mention the words "interpretation" quite a few times. You also mention wanting to do a deep dive concerning a list of words. What exactly do you want to discuss about these words. Its origins, its meaning in context. The manner in which it is explored? Is it to see as you say why people use them differently, ie comparison of meaning? Also you say it's actual meaning that are valid? How is validity determined?When you use the word "interpretation" you automatically venture into the area of hermeneutics.

So if you care to please elaborate what the focus of the discussion should be. I've read quite a few posts attempting to unravel the words and/or rather trying to understand the questions about unraveling the words, resulting in more confusion (to me at least, as I'm not entirely sure about the question?)