Church words - are they legit or is there problems?

[2PhiloVoid]

This is an interesting comment. Is it a simple oversight or something else?

Yes. I somehow got distracted by a family member as I was typing and didn't put in the additional pronoun, "I".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What is used to keep the enemy out is death itself.

um no. If a person dies. it is already too late. the church can not help that person

That is why it was said death would be the result of not following the will of God. We as a whole are the enemy/adversaries. That has been overcome with Jesus' resurrection. We were/are the enemy who now have a chance to repent of our adversarial ways and gain access to the Kingdom.

Yes. so we better follow the will of God. which is that whoever sees and believes will nto perish, but have eternal life (john 3, John 6) he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (john 5)

I can go on and on and on, the same message.\

who overcomes?

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5.
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Saved to what at the time. No resurrection, no Kingdom.

I am saved right now. I will be saved in the end.

this is what scripture says, I have been saved by grace period. But God will nto just force me to receive his gift. so as he said, through faith, not of works.

If we reject the selfish self serving ways of the flesh and become of the Kingdom of God with our focus instead upon the needs of all as Jesus said in His two commandments

You can reject it all you want.

if you do not repent and cry out for his salvation. You will be lost. as those who cried that they do all these great works in jesus name. and he said depart for he never knew them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes people like their lives in the world we have made in our own image and are hesitant to leave it. The basis of this entire world is selfishness and people see it in crimes, sin, authoritarianism, etc but self justify their own selfishness, using the ol' knowledge of good and evil to set their own definitions of each to suit their purposes. They are hesitant to leave the societal notion of self entitlement and instead serve each other in need without gain at their expense. They most often die focused on the wrong world and it's politics and ways rather than on the Kingdom and its ways, sating lord lord all the way.

Yes, and this is sad. This is the world Adam left us.

I pray for the day when the world Christ restores is here. although as I read, it will get far worse before that happens

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Some people think this is necessary to learn theology and perhaps that is so but that is to learn the rules of a governmental institution using God to form their own kingdoms. To learn the will of God is a totally different path that even a child can understand. Jesus' first followers were not theologians but servants, slaves, women, the oppressed, all of whom readily understood His teachings of the Gospel of the Kingdom and needed no middlemen to dictate or rule over them and oppress them with institutional rules.

I remember Jesus said, unless we come to him like little children.

it was so freeing when I finally stopped blindly following what I was taught all those years. and actually sat down and did some study.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And I agreed, in some cases that may be true, but not in all cases

Again, I said this is true also

But when i see what word (eternal) I do not need hermeneutics to understand what the word means. And if someone is telling me the word means something other than eternal. well I can know that they have made an err somewhere.

I think your reading way to deep in this.

Jesus said I will never die, and I will live forever (eternal life)

I do not need hermenuetics to understand what Jesus said.

Now. I have seen many a person eisegete this passage to make Jesus say something else.

Other passages may be more difficult. and need more understanding to understand the message (which is where hermenuetics and other stuff come in) but there are some words or phrases we should just take at face value.

I fully believe people do this on some of these words or passages, because taking them at face value would go against what they believe. so it is a cheap easy way to make it appear their belief lines up with that they make these words or phrases say.



This is not a protestant vs catholic issue.

this is a word issue,

I do not have to be protestant or catholic to look at a word and know what it means.

And I agreed, in some cases that may be true, but not in all cases

Again, I said this is true also

But when i see what word (eternal) I do not need hermeneutics to understand what the word means. And if someone is telling me the word means something other than eternal. well I can know that they have made an err somewhere.

I think your reading way to deep in this.

Jesus said I will never die, and I will live forever (eternal life)

I do not need hermenuetics to understand what Jesus said.

Now. I have seen many a person eisegete this passage to make Jesus say something else.

Other passages may be more difficult. and need more understanding to understand the message (which is where hermenuetics and other stuff come in) but there are some words or phrases we should just take at face value.

I fully believe people do this on some of these words or passages, because taking them at face value would go against what they believe. so it is a cheap easy way to make it appear their belief lines up with that they make these words or phrases say.



This is not a protestant vs catholic issue.

this is a word issue,

I do not have to be protestant or catholic to look at a word and know what it means.

Here's the rub: If all that were to happen in the case of my never having read the Bible but then having Ephesians 2:8-9 quoted to me by a Christian, I wouldn't clearly understand what "grace" is by merely from hearing that Christian recite these verses. No, more would have to be said and explained to me in that kind of hypothetical case about literary contexts and Greek denotations before I could understand these verses.

Let's not pretend that the Bible comes to us pain free and has perspicuity in its messages in all cases, especially when lurking in the background of its history are a host of critical issues pertaining to its authorship and authenticity which color over the fact that we have Jesus' words, more or less, being reported to us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The meaning of "common" words is determined by their use in Scripture.

That requires more than a dictionary, it requires correct understanding of Scripture; i.e., in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
The best way to know the meaning of Scriptural words is to study the Scriptures in their own light.
Nothing else can equal it.

I agree

But a common word can not be used against its common interpretation.

it is a tool God uses to help us to weed out false teachers or false beliefs.

God is not going to inspire a writer of his word to use a word to tell us something that has nothing to do with the word itself. or has a totally opposite meaning of the word used.

that's why the word can be trusted.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes. I somehow got distracted by a family member as I was typing and didn't put in the additional pronoun, "I".

Oh, you meant to say, "They had the full teaching of Jesus directly. You and I don't"? That clears it up a bit.

But what I was most curious about is the concept that we don't learn anything from Jesus directly any more. He's not with us physically any longer, that's true, but do you think He is not directly teaching, leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the intimacy of our own hearts?

 

[timothyu]

Jesus said he did nto come to judge, He came to save

Of course... to save us from this backwards thinking self serving world we have made in our own adversarial image. That was the Good News of the Kingdom which gave us an alternative.

 

[timothyu]

Yes. so we better follow the will of God. which is that whoever sees and believes will nto perish, but have eternal life (john 3, John 6) he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (john 5)

Exactly. Reject the self serving ways of mankind for the will of the Father.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here's the rub: If all that were to happen in the case of my never having read the Bible but then having Ephesians 2:8-9 quoted to me by a Christian, I wouldn't clearly understand what "grace" is by merely from hearing that Christian recite these verses. No, more would have to be said and explained to me in that kind of hypothetical case about literary contexts and Greek denotations before I could understand these verses.

Let's not pretend that the Bible comes to us pain free and has perspicuity in its messages in all cases, especially when lurking in the background of its history are a host of critical issues pertaining to its authorship and authenticity which color over the fact that we have Jesus' words, more or less, being reported to us.

Oh I agree.

But if the person tells you what it is. Do you just take his word at face value, or do you study to make sure.

I know people who have went to seminary. and are church leaders who do not know what the word grace means. so what about them?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh, you meant to say, "They had the full teaching of Jesus directly. You and I don't"? That clears it up a bit.

But what I was most curious about is the concept that we don't learn anything from Jesus directly any more. He's not with us physically any longer, that's true, but do you think He is not directly teaching, leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the intimacy of our own hearts?

well said. amen and amen

 

[timothyu]

I am saved right now. I will be saved in the end.

this is what scripture says, I have been saved by grace period. But God will nto just force me to receive his gift. so as he said, through faith, not of works.

You were talking about pre-Jesus people, not yourself and my response was made accordingly. You have the advantage of being post-Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

You can reject it all you want.

if you do not repent and cry out for his salvation. You will be lost. as those who cried that they do all these great works in jesus name. and he said depart for he never knew them

Repentance is rejection.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course... to save us from this backwards thinking self serving world we have made in our own adversarial image. That was the Good News of the Kingdom which gave us an alternative.

but that is not what Jesus was talking about in John 3.

I can have eternal life. and still think backwards. thats why we have to grow. we still have this world to deal with.

but at the same time, I know, as paul said, no matter what happens, its like a momentary light affliction. why?

I will never perish, and I will live forever (eternal life) As jesus said, I have passed from judgment to life. I will be raised by him on the last day. as paul said again, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

John said I know I have eternal life. and that is what motivates me to keep believing. because I know I will be with him forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You were talking about pre-Jesus people, not yourself and my response was made accordingly. You have the advantage if being post-Kingdom.

everyone from Adam until the last man who will ever recieve Gods grace is saved the same way, By grace through faith

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Repentance is rejection.

it is much more than this.

I can reject the sexual revolution and say I will love my wife. or if not married. save myself for her.

If I have not repented and come to faith in Christ. I am still lost.

 

[timothyu]

but that is not what Jesus was talking about in John 3.

Jesus talked of nothing but His Gospel of the kingdom which ran contrary to the will and ways of man. That Kingdom is what you speak of. We still must reverse our polarity to gain access to that gift.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus talked of nothing but His Gospel of the kingdom which ran contrary to the will and ways of man. That Kingdom is what you speak of. We still must reverse our polarity to gain access to that gift.

His kingdom is eternal. it is not of this world.

And said whoever enters his kingdom will never perish, but have everlasting life. they also will nto be condemned.

so why would anyone try to fight that gospel truth?

 

[timothyu]

If I have not repented and come to faith in Christ. I am still lost.

Which is simply rejecting the self serving ways of man for the will of God as told in Jesus' two commandments and all through the Bible.

 

[timothyu]

everyone from Adam until the last man who will ever recieve Gods grace is saved the same way, By grace through faith

yes, faith in the will of God over the will of man as these early folks did. But they still had no kingdom to come as incentive.