Salvation from the Catholic View Compared to the Eastern Orthodox View

[fhansen]

You are talking out both ends of your mouth, like a used car salesman. It's not by works, "BUT" works that prepared us for advancement. Then you say the works that come after being Justified. I don't think you know what this means or entails.

Flippity Floppity, which way did he go.

It's been the same, the same in my posts, the same in Christianity since the beginning, It just behooves you and your position to think otherwise. But like I said many posts ago...the teachings were all correctly laid down a long time ago- and would at least be worth considering instead of wallowing in your "knowledge". But planks can be hard to remove. And Rom 2:7 are His words, not mine. But ignoring inconvenient Scripture seems to be a common thread in your replies.

 

[fhansen]

Why not? I am not a sinner in Adam, he is just a cautionary tale, a bad example. People are good according to your position. Your position is even teaches and believes that people are intrinsically good. They can enter heaven by their good works by following the Commandments, just like the the Rich Young Ruler.

I can't respond if you're just making stuff up as you go along. The rich young ruler could in no way fulfill the commandments unless he was first reconciled with God. And that's why Jesus came. And fulfill them he must. Again, can a believer expect to enter heaven if persistently engaged in wanton, grave sin? The church has honest answers for this, facing the issue head-on, You don't-and refuse to even look at those answers.

 

[ladodgers6]

It's been the same, the same in my posts, the same in Christianity since the beginning, It just behooves you and your position to think otherwise.

LoL...I needed that laugh. The salesman's bogus sales talk continues. You said that a person is not Justified by the Finished Works of Christ but by His/Hers actual obedience to the Law. You do not believe in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, but rely solely on the works of man. This Sir, is Legalism. And Paul condemns such false teaching. No flesh will be justified through the Law or works. Only through Faith in Christ will a sinner be justified. And through Faith removes all boasting, even the Father of Faith, Abraham cannot boast before God by His works (Romans 4:1).​

But like I said many posts ago...the teachings were all correctly laid down a long time ago- and would at least be worth considering instead of wallowing in your "knowledge". But planks can be hard to remove. And Rom 2:7 are His words, not mine. But ignoring inconvenient Scripture seems to be a common thread in your replies.

Romans 2:7, is Law preaching. Are you without Sin. Have you keep the Commandments? This is to drive a sinner not the Law but to Christ. Or are you like the Rich Young Ruler who have kept these commandments since your youth?

 

[ladodgers6]

I am curious about something, if I may ask you a question. You do not believe that Christ's Righteousness came be given/imputed/reckoned/credited/freely given to the ungodly to declare them righteous before God and enter paradise.

So, here's my question, how can our sins be atone for by Christ? Why does Isaiah 53 say that Christ was numbered among the transgressors? How could Christ be made sin who knew no sin?​

 

[fhansen]

LoL...I needed that laugh. The salesman's bogus sales talk continues. You said that a person is not Justified by the Finished Works of Christ but by His/Hers actual obedience to the Law. You do not believe in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, but rely solely on the works of man. This Sir, is Legalism. And Paul condemns such false teaching. No flesh will be justified through the Law or works. Only through Faith in Christ will a sinner be justified. And through Faith removes all boasting, even the Father of Faith, Abraham cannot boast before God by His works (Romans 4:1).​

I'll try to help turn your laughter into wisdom. First, you'll need to start with a working understanding of justification. Justification is about relationship; it's to be made right, entering a state of real justice/righteousness because you're now aligned with and attached to its Source, as a branch connected to the Vine. That's the source of true health, righteousness, life for man. That's what faith is, that's what faith does. This is not a merely declared state of justice but, again, the real thing, given to us freely as the seed of God's life is implanted in us. Nor is this some one-time permanent event; it's, again, a relationship, and one that we were made for. But, as with any relationship, we can open the door to it-and we can also close the door to it. If a man cheats on his wife and then later says, "Look, honey, I believe that I've been faithful to you "in Spirit", if not in the flesh- and that's the main thing-and, in fact, I was faithful to you once, at least", she might be laughing as she removes her gun from her nightstand.

Now, if she cools down and decides to forgive, and he repents, the story can turn out differently. But then, OTOH, if he just goes back to the same old thing, then he’s made a mockery of her mercy and their relationship, regardless of any assertions of his love and loyalty and contrition. Again, talk is cheap

Now, works of the law, which are just external acts, can’t and don’t produce that state of justice but rather works flow from it, as sap through the vine. We will do good, overcome sin, forgive others, love, to the extent that we’re still connected to Him. If those things are not happening then the relationship is broken, we're not connected and we’re no longer in that state of justice. The sap isn’t flowing-we're dying. That relationship is your justice, your righteousness. Walk away from it and you will sin. Sin, and you're already walking away from it.

So, the new covenant is not just about the forgiveness of sin, but about taking away and the replacing of sin, of unrighteousness, with righteousness-and certainly not about patting ourselves on the back for remaining in and constantly acknowledging our sinfulness. Man was not created to sin, incidentally. Again, it’s about a relationship, a partnership. The essence of the new covenant: “Apart from Me you can do nothing.”

Instead of a carte blanc reprieve from the penalty of sin, the gospel is about forgiveness and freedom from past sin unto the righteousness that you were created for. God’s no fool; man reaps what he sows, to the Spirit or to the flesh. You have responsibility in this relationship, even if it’s the minor part. You are a debtor to God, with obligation (Rom 8:12-14) because of what He’s done for you. You, IOW, must love in return and to the extent that you truly remain in Him, you will, and that’s why the following verses all reconcile with each other, all consistent with the new covenant:

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.” Rom 3:20

“…by the works of the law no one will be justified.” Gal 2:16

“But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:15

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.”

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Matt 25:34-40

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:6-7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Again, under the new covenant the following directive hasn’t changed one bit:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Romans 2:7, is Law preaching.

No, it’s not. Paul was teaching a universal truth that applies to all, preaching the new covenant, the same gospel, the same gospel as Jesus, all throughout Romans. It’s not a matter of whether or not one must be obedient, but about how obedience comes.

Are you without Sin. Have you keep the Commandments? This is to drive a sinner not the Law but to Christ. Or are you like the Rich Young Ruler who have kept these commandments since your youth?

So, again, and again, can a believer expect to enter heaven if persistently committing grave, wanton sin? Your “gospel” doesn’t have the answer. You don’t have the answer. The church does. But you’re apparently afraid to look-to pray, to study, to seek- because then you’d have to admit that you don’t already know.

You want the gospel to be all about God favoring the lucky few while damning the rest. So that some people could say with teary-eyed "pious" gratitude, “Thank you for saving me God. Too bad about those others who’re you’re not saving, who’re going to hell, but I guess they’re just bad anyway. Oh well.”

You’ve drawn a few plausible intellectual concepts from Scripture, and made them into absolutes as they might tend to rather pleasingly resolve some difficulties in understanding God’s plan of salvation for man. I assume you know that Calvinism doesn’t teach utter depravity, as if fallen man is as evil as he could possibly be. It teaches that the mind has been weakened and darkened. This what the RCC teaches as well-but for the Catholic Church this doesn’t mean that he becomes some kind of complete sin machine or gains a sin nature, or completely loses the image of God that he was created with. He’s wounded, cut off from the Vine as it were, unable to give life to himself. But he can at least respond when that life is, by grace, shown him and offered to him.

Will the Gentiles in Rom 2:14-16 necessarily be judged worthy of hell? Was the Good Samaritan bad? Does the sun shine and the rain fall on the bad only? Do non-believers never do good, sometimes sacrificing themselves for the sake of others? We’d have to live in a cave to believe they don’t. Isaiah in Is 64 and Jeremiah in Jer 17 were talking about their people and David in Psalms 53 was talking about his enemies and Paul in Rom 3 was talking about everyone and while there may be some hyperbole involved the most important point is that we’re all definitively sinners, all lost, all sick to one degree or another and so all dead because we’re cut off from the Vine, that separation, itself, being the essence of the state of injustice known as “original sin”. And even if we do seek God, as I did, even that is prompted by Him and in any case we can’t find ourselves, we can’t heal ourselves, we can’t raise ourselves. He calls us to communion, and that union with Him is our healing, our raising, our life.

 

[fhansen]

I am curious about something, if I may ask you a question. You do not believe that Christ's Righteousness came be given/imputed/reckoned/credited/freely given to the ungodly to declare them righteous before God and enter paradise.

So, here's my question, how can our sins be atone for by Christ? Why does Isaiah 53 say that Christ was numbered among the transgressors? How could Christ be made sin who knew no sin?

He atones for that which separates you from God: your sin. He also empowers you to sin no more-so you'll come to be a slave to righteousness and not condemned in the future either. And He's very patient in bringing you closer to Him, or calling you back if you stray. But He ultimately won't override your rejection of Him if that's what you finally want. He seeks to draw you to His love-and to cultivate it in you. That's what this is all about.

 

[ladodgers6]

He atones for that which separates you from God: your sin. He also empowers you to sin no more-so you'll come a slave to righteousness and not condemned in the future either. And He's very patient in bringing you closer to Him, or calling you back if you stray. But He ultimately won't override your rejection of Him if that's what you finally want. He seeks to draw you to His love-and to cultivate it in you. That's what this is all about.

Thank you for replying. But this didn't answer the question. I asked, How can our sins be laid upon Christ to Atone for? Scripture says that He was made sin, who knew no sin. How was Christ made sin?

 

[fhansen]

Thank you for replying. But this didn't answer the question. I asked, How can our sins be laid upon Christ to Atone for? Scripture says that He was made sin, who knew no sin. How was Christ made sin?

It means that He, by an act of love, took our place in being punished for sin, unto the death that sin deserves. He was treated as if He was the sinner even though He was not. This is so that we now become sinless as well so that God's righteousness may now reign in us instead. Reconciliation with Him does that-which is why sin flourished after the initial break with God at the Fall. Just as unrighteousness-sin-entered the world through Adam's first act of disobedience, so now righteousness enters, or re-enters, the world through Jesus's act of obedience. Through the one we were made sinners, through the other we are made righteous (Rom 5:19). So that:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

We're always to follow Christ in the way we live our lives, and, with grace, we now can. We died with Him and we rise with Him. Again, union with God is the answer. Atonement literally means "at-one-ment". Our part is only to accept this offer, this reconciliation:
"We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20

 

[ladodgers6]

It means that He, by an act of love, took our place in being punished for sin, unto the death that sin deserves. He was treated as if He was the sinner even though He was not.

Amen!!!! Hallelujah !!!! How amazing is this for the ungodly???? This is the good news, I was sharing with you. HE was treated "as if" He was a sinner even though He was not. But how is this possible, if He didn't know sin??? This Sir, is the crux of the question that we need to find the answer to.

Christ was punished as a sinner, charged and sentenced to die as a sinner, tortured and publicly humiliated as a sinner, stripped naked and crucified in public as a sinner. But He knew no sin; He is a Penal Substitutionary Atonement for sin, that propitiated God's justice (Jesus' death satisfied the demands of justice and propitiation, allowing God to forgive sins and reconcile sinners to God).

God "counts" or "attributes" the sins committed by humans as belonging to Jesus Christ, allowing Jesus to bear the penalty for those sins on the cross, even though he himself was sinless; essentially, Jesus took on the guilt of humanity's sin to enable their redemption. ​

"Impute" means to reckon or count as belonging to someone:
This is a legal term that is applied in theology to describe how God views our sins as being transferred to Jesus.

Justification by faith:
This concept is central to the idea of imputation, where through faith in Jesus, God declares us righteous by imputing Christ's righteousness to us, even though we are sinners.

Biblical reference:
2 Corinthians 5:21 is often cited to explain this concept, which states, "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God".

So, the only way our sins can be atone for by Christ is by being imputed to Him. This is a legal declaration, because Christ himself is not sinful, He knew no sin, and conversely, imputes the sins of the redeemed to Christ. Imputation is based on Old Testament sacrificial structures seen in places such as the Day of Atonement, where the sins of the people are transferred to a scapegoat. The prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah provide even clearer foundations for the doctrine, upon which the NT authors build. The apostle Paul provides the bulk of the NT teaching on imputation clarifying three ways in which imputation functions: (1) Adam’s sin imputed to all of humanity; (2) the Christian’s sin imputed to Christ; and (3) Christ’s righteousness imputed to Christians. The latter two of these imputations Martin Luther famously called the “glorious exchange,” our sin for Christ’s righteousness. Such truth is a balm to the Christian who fears standing in the presence of a holy God wearing nothing but sin-stained garments.

So, in the same sense sinners are declared righteous before not by becoming righteous or being inherently righteous, but by the imputation of Christ's righteous and the sinner is "as if" him/herself righteous. You have half the glorious good news for the ungodly, the other half is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly!

I'll address more later, have to run. I hope you take the time to understand this and hopefully see how amazing God's Grace & Mercy really is.

God Bless, by Grace Alone, because of Christ Alone and to God be all the Glory Alone.​

 

[fhansen]

God "counts" or "attributes" the sins committed by humans as belonging to Jesus Christ, allowing Jesus to bear the penalty for those sins on the cross, even though he himself was sinless; essentially, Jesus took on the guilt of humanity's sin to enable their redemption. ​

"Impute" means to reckon or count as belonging to someone:
This is a legal term that is applied in theology to describe how God views our sins as being transferred to Jesus.

Justification by faith:
This concept is central to the idea of imputation, where through faith in Jesus, God declares us righteous by imputing Christ's righteousness to us, even though we are sinners.

Biblical reference:
2 Corinthians 5:21 is often cited to explain this concept, which states, "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God".

Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so that we don't have to. And this involves much more than the mere forgiveness/acquittal of sin: a forensic declaration of righteousness. He frees us from sin, from the captivity of sin and we become the righteousness of God because He now fills us with that righteousness instead. Otherwise, nothing is changed, we're no different than non-believers, not new creations at all. We'd be like the house in Matt 12:44 that's swept clean only so that more evil spirits might come and dwell inside.

All became sinners with Adam's act of disobedience; his unrighteousness wasn't merely imputed to us, as if afterwards God saw only a sinner regardless of whether or not we actually sinned. No, we all truly became unrighteous, sinners. So with Jesus' obedience we truly become righteous again.

Some errors, some old, some modern, to avoid:

True obedience and righteousness, even when obtained by grace, are the equivalent of-no more than-law abiding.

Grace is irresistible, man is completely passive in his assent to God when called by Him.

Man can seek, find, believe in, hope in, love and please God apart from grace.

Righteousness is solely imputed to man at justification and not given to him.

Rebirth/regeneration is a permanent, irrevocable change done to man without his consent.

Believers become saintly automatons who can do nothing but good.

Sin can never compromise a believer's relationship with God; they cannot lose their state of justice by living unjustly.

Perfect sinlessness is possible, and necessary, in this life when under grace, walking in the Spirit.

A believer need not overcome the deeds of the flesh, sin that leads to death, as outlined in Scripture as acts that will exclude him from heaven.

A believer need not cooperate with God's grace, participating in His work, which is aimed at his salvation.

 

[prodromos]

The OP asked for any difference for salvation between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Someone has gone way off topic and turned it into a debate over the reformed view of salvation. It's sad that they can't see other viewpoints discussed without them feeling the need to jump in and argue their own views which were never asked for.

 

[ladodgers6]

Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so that we don't have to. And this involves much more than the mere forgiveness/acquittal of sin: a forensic declaration of righteousness. He frees us from sin, from the captivity of sin and we become the righteousness of God because He now fills us with that righteousness instead. Otherwise, nothing is changed, we're no different than non-believers, not new creations at all. We'd be like the house in Matt 12:44 that's swept clean only so that more evil spirits might come and dwell inside.

All became sinners with Adam's act of disobedience; his unrighteousness wasn't merely imputed to us, as if afterwards God saw only a sinner regardless of whether or not we actually sinned. No, we all truly became unrighteous, sinners. So with Jesus' obedience we truly become righteous again.

Some errors, some old, some modern, to avoid:

True obedience and righteousness, even when obtained by grace, are the equivalent of-no more than-law abiding.

Grace is irresistible, man is completely passive in his assent to God when called by Him.

Man can seek, find, believe in, hope in, love and please God apart from grace.

Righteousness is solely imputed to man at justification and not given to him.

Rebirth/regeneration is a permanent, irrevocable change done to man without his consent.

Believers become saintly automatons who can do nothing but good.

Sin can never compromise a believer's relationship with God; they cannot lose their state of justice by living unjustly.

Perfect sinlessness is possible, and necessary, in this life when under grace, walking in the Spirit.

A believer need not overcome the deeds of the flesh, sin that leads to death, as outlined in Scripture as acts that will exclude him from heaven.

A believer need not cooperate with God's grace, participating in His work, which is aimed at his salvation.

So, that I understand you correctly, are you agreeing with what the Reformers were debating against Rome, that it is a imputed righteousness that redeems and justifies the ungodly and not an infused or imparted righteousness that justifies the ungodly? Because once we start to look at what we do for assurance and hope for salvation, then it is no longer Grace but Law (works).

 

[RileyG]

Catholics would basically say that we cannot save ourselves but we can damn ourselves. God is the primary worker in our salvation. Catholic and Orthodox soteriology is very similar when looking from a Protestant perspective, in my opinion.


They can repent and return, like the Prodigal Son or the traditores of the Donatist controversy.

Amen

 

[RileyG]

From the perspective of an outsider looking in there are no differences at all. There are some things the Roman Church adopted after the schism that can be argued either way.

According to the bible and all of Christian history salvation is conditional. The biggest word in the bible is "if". If you believe, if you obey, etc. A Christian can fall away into condemnation through sin or apostasy. According to the new testament once one falls away they can never return. But it is the tradition of the Church that even an apostate can be absolved and brought back into the Church.

Once one falls away they can never return IF AND ONLY IF they remain unrepentant.

 

[fhansen]

So, that I understand you correctly, are you agreeing with what the Reformers were debating against Rome, that it is a imputed righteousness that redeems and justifies the ungodly and not an infused or imparted righteousness that justifies the ungodly? Because once we start to look at what we do for assurance and hope for salvation, then it is no longer Grace but Law (works).

Hmmm…..I guess I’m an abject failure at communication here. I’ve been adamantly affirming throughout our discussion that righteousness is imparted, infused: freely given at justification. A righteousness APART from the law. (Rom 3:20). That is the justification-the making right-of the ungodly. That is the one thing that man cannot do. The new covenant is all about what God does, as we turn to and unite with Him now via faith.

You’re looking at the gospel too myopically here; you need to see it from the bigger picture. At the beginning man turned away from God, and the righteousness/justice that man had was lost, compromised, overridden as he became his own “god”, doing what was right in his own eyes, for better or worse and very often for the worse. Sin flourished immediately after that first sin. Man’s distance or alienation from God ensures his sinfulness (it is his sinfulness) while nearness to or union with God is the source of his true righteousness.

That is what Jesus came to accomplish, reconciliation with God, so that the sin that separates us from Him will do so no more. And it’s a journey, that we embark on as we jump on board with Him as we were always meant to be. That union is our state of righteousness and to the degree that we remain in it, remain in Him, cooperating with His grace, goodness blossoms and grows. We become increasingly like Him. We just must accept this reconciliation with this state of justice that is intrinsic to it, and walk in it.

“We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.” 2 Cor 5:20

The new covenant is not about acting holy (obeying the law) so that we can please God and qualify as one of His children, which doesn’t work. Rather, the NC is about becoming one of His children first by His free gift of reconciliation involving forgiveness of sin so that we may now walk in the obedience that we were always meant to as the branch now receives its vital flow of lifeblood from the Vine. If that ain’t happen’n, we probably ain’t His.

 

[ladodgers6]

Hmmm…..I guess I’m an abject failure at communication here. I’ve been adamantly affirming throughout our discussion that righteousness is imparted, infused: freely given at justification. A righteousness APART from the law. (Rom 3:20). That is the justification-the making right-of the ungodly. That is the one thing that man cannot do. The new covenant is all about what God does, as we turn to and unite with Him now via faith.

I thought we finally had it. When you explain how Christ atones for our sins, it was spot on. See, our sins are not impart or infused to Christ but imputed, transferred to Christ he isn't actual sin that sinned. He was treated "as if" he was a sinner, because Original Sin and our personal sins; past, present future are pay for by the sacrificial blood of the Paschal Lamb. But before Christ can even atone for sins, he was to be spotless, without blemish of sin. He does this by incarnation in the flesh, born under the Law; to fulfill the Law with the perfect obedience it commands through His lifetime in the flesh. Only by doing this can be now be the perfect sacrifice without sin; knowing no sin. And His Righteousness is given as a Free Gift to the ungodly who believe in Him who Justifies the ungodly by imputing Christ's Righteousness to them, "as if" they are Righteous and treated as such by declaration and stand just before God. But this Righteousness is not impart or infused making them righteous and are declared righteous before God by an inherent righteousness. No! It is solely the Righteousness of Christ as the sinner's surety who pays the ransom and provides the Righteous Garment of Salvation.

You are conflating sanctification as the ground or basis of the sinner justification before God. This is not the Gospel or Good News but another gospel, at is no gospel at all. It's an alien or Extra Nos righteousness that justifies the ungodly not impart or infused righteousness.

Did I present well enough?​

 

[fhansen]

Did I present well enough?​

Yes, you’ve again presented the errors of the reformers and yourself quite well . Forgive me….

In any case….I’ll try to position verses/concepts from Romans 5 & 6 in such a way that the meaning will be more difficult to elude us if read carefully, thoughtfully:

“But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!”

“For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

“For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.”

One is not justified by imputation alone, or by the forgiveness of sin alone, but by the gift of justice, aka righteousness:

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

You’ve separated justification from sanctification, and they are not meant to be! They are the same thing, with justice/righteousness being a seed planted within you, the seed of God’s life which is meant to grow and blossom into full grown likeness to Him. Justification is the beginning, the root and foundation of salvation, not the end of it. Read the Parable of the Talents in Matt 25. The talents are the gifts, the grace, given. Then read on as to how we’re to interact with, to “invest”, what we’ve been given, returning an increase. Then read what can happen if we don’t. We’re blessed as we come to believe. We’re not to mock or dismiss or reject or be lukewarm or cavalier about that gift.

 

[fhansen]

I thought we finally had it. When you explain how Christ atones for our sins, it was spot on. See, our sins are not impart or infused to Christ but imputed, transferred to Christ he isn't actual sin that sinned. He was treated "as if" he was a sinner, because Original Sin and our personal sins; past, present future are pay for by the sacrificial blood of the Paschal Lamb. But before Christ can even atone for sins, he was to be spotless, without blemish of sin. He does this by incarnation in the flesh, born under the Law; to fulfill the Law with the perfect obedience it commands through His lifetime in the flesh. Only by doing this can be now be the perfect sacrifice without sin; knowing no sin. And His Righteousness is given as a Free Gift to the ungodly who believe in Him who Justifies the ungodly by imputing Christ's Righteousness to them, "as if" they are Righteous and treated as such by declaration and stand just before God. But this Righteousness is not impart or infused making them righteous and are declared righteous before God by an inherent righteousness. No! It is solely the Righteousness of Christ as the sinner's surety who pays the ransom and provides the Righteous Garment of Salvation.

You are conflating sanctification as the ground or basis of the sinner justification before God. This is not the Gospel or Good News but another gospel, at is no gospel at all. It's an alien or Extra Nos righteousness that justifies the ungodly not impart or infused righteousness.

Did I present well enough?​

We’ll reach no consensus on this. I’ve presented the position as the church has understood the matter since the beginning while you’ve presented a new age position. Either way, we’ll gain nothing by continuing to repeat the same concepts in different words. Aside from that, @podromos was right; we’re just hijacking a thread off topic. Start a new one instead.

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, you’ve again presented the errors of the reformers and yourself quite well . Forgive me….

Okay, so that you understand there's a mishap on your part that you make along with the Socinians fail to give credit to Christ as propitiator and meritor. Now, God made Christ who knew no sin, to be sin for us. This is a legal declaration of guilty against Christ for paying the penalty for sin. Christ is the ransom which purchases or pays what owed with His own blood; in other words He takes our place. "As if" He is a sinner and treated as such for us. This Hansen is our sins being imputed or transferred to Christ. This I hope you agree with because you already stated it.

So, you have on half of the equation. The other half is the ungodly by legal declaration are pronounced righteous not because of their inherent righteousness (if even possible) but by the Righteousness of Christ (Righteousness of God) given freely as a gift that is not earned that clothed the ungodly like the wedding garment of salvation. And this righteousness of Christ is what is needed to enter heaven; by which Righteousness is blameless, spotless, without blemish; 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matt. 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.​

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.
Col. 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

The only way Christ could have cancel the debt owed by us is to pay whats owed. He takes responsibility for the penalty which belongs to us and is transferred to Him. But this only takes care of the penalty part of the sacrifice. The Righteousness to the Law commands is still needed to enter heaven; a positive righteousness of Christ is transferred by the One Man's Act of Obedience.

Romans 5:17 the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Notice it doesn't say our inherent (if that was possible) but the ONE MAN Jesus Christ. It is HIS Righteousness that is the FREE GIFT to those who believe and are legally declared Righteous by God through Faith Alone in Christ Alone.​

 

[fhansen]

Okay, so that you understand there's a mishap on your part that you make along with the Socinians fail to give credit to Christ as propitiator and meritor. Now, God made Christ who knew no sin, to be sin for us. This is a legal declaration of guilty against Christ for paying the penalty for sin. Christ is the ransom which purchases or pays what owed with His own blood; in other words He takes our place. "As if" He is a sinner and treated as such for us. This Hansen is our sins being imputed or transferred to Christ. This I hope you agree with because you already stated it.

So, you have on half of the equation. The other half is the ungodly by legal declaration are pronounced righteous not because of their inherent righteousness (if even possible) but by the Righteousness of Christ (Righteousness of God) given freely as a gift that is not earned that clothed the ungodly like the wedding garment of salvation. And this righteousness of Christ is what is needed to enter heaven; by which Righteousness is blameless, spotless, without blemish; 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

No, you have half the equation because the atonement, which is for everyone but affects only those who turn to Him, not only means forgiveness of sin, which is what imputation relates to, but also makes them a new creation. Our sins are forgiven, now we're to 'go, and sin no more'. And by the grace of the new covenant, by and with the Holy Spirit, we can do just that.

So ok, you have your marching orders; rather than resting on your laurels basking in the notion that obedience is now unnecessary, that sin is now ok (the 2nd chapter of James is meant to correct that very error), be aware that you must obey; Jesus' burden is light, not non-existent. This isn't legalism because legalism is about a set of rules, and nothing about the obedience that comes by virtue of union between the branch and the Vine.

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Ez 36:25-27

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

But He won't remove your will, your freedom-and that is why we'll continue to struggle against sin, which is the choice between good and evil, meaning our "yes" or "no" to God. If God wanted puppets or automatons, He would've just made them that way in Eden. We pick up our cross and follow daily; we believe, hope, and love moment by moment, or not, born out by how we live our lives.

You've managed to throw the gospel completely upside down, taking it from the Way of overcoming sin, finally, to a way of remaining in sin. God's way is the way of love, and the nearer we are to Him the more we love and love excludes sin by its nature. To the extent that we love, our righteousness already easily surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, Matt 5:20.