SALVATION

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
There's a difference between believing something is true, and believing IN HIM.

So you say. But the Scriptures do not teach the difference you imagine.

They don't? You say you believe —you do well; the demons also believe, and tremble!

Mark Quayle said:
What it says is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And I see nowhere in the immediate context that claims the definition of the Gospel = "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". You are adding to scripture, my man, bending it to fit your soteriology and ecclesiology. That is sloppy, at best, and misleading.

READ the Context.

The Gospel Message is a call to repentance. That is the whole point of the Great Commission that Christ commanded to be preached to all nations.

Luke 24:46-47 (WEB) 46 “So it is written, and so it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 20:20 [I have] taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 earnestly declaring to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Lord Jesus was sent from the Father to earth to call sinners to repentance. Read the Scriptures.

Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Are you not sloughing over from "Gospel" to "Great commission"? Would you now characterize the Gospel as, "REPENT !", and that's it???

1. Repentance is a gift from God too. Impossible for one to do, apart from the work of the Spirit of God. 2. The whole point of the great commission is repentance? But, besides those two things, what I said was that the context does not say, and this time I will include my emphasis, so you can read it, "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". One is not saved by repenting, nor by man-made ability to believe, but by the gift of faith, from which comes repentance and ability to believe salvifically.

Mark Quayle said:
I did not say that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us. I said the Spirit of God generates that faith within us.

Same thing. That is what regeneration is: to make alive. A person first has to believe to be made alive by indwelling Spirit.

Assertion only. The dead cannot raise themselves to life.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Yes, from within him will flow rivers of living water. That is a reference to the Spirit of God. The same Spirit that they would receive at Pentecost. Once again, as though I haven't told you this before, the coming of the Spirit of God at Pentecost does not preclude his regenerating the elect before Pentecost.

As Scripture states: By faith we receive eternal life.

John 3:36 (NIV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

How does this show that salvific faith is man-produced, and not a gift of God?

The Indwelling of the Spirit to all believers (whoever) is a New Covenant Promise that OT Prophecy foretold - to anyone who believes.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

We've already dealt with this.

Mark Quayle said:
Repeating, again: That does not mean that in the Old Testament, that anyone came to saving faith of their own fallen free will, at enmity with God, nor does it imply that in the New Testament, it is possible for anyone to have saving faith in and of their own power.

All those in the OT believed before ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

Assertion only.

The Promise of Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit was made possible only by Christ's sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We receive the Spirit by faith, and was only made possible in the New Covenant.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:14 (NIV) 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is amazing. You keep doing this, claiming that these show mankind at enmity with God is able to receive the spirit of their own volition. HOW?? I ask. Only by the Spirit having already raised them from death to life. Do you honestly think that only if YOU are aware of something that it can happen???

 

[Mark Quayle]

The use of the word "dead faith," in the context of what fhansen was explaining is a faith that does not save. The word "dead" is just one of many words that could have been used to describe a faith by which God does not save us.

Galatians 5:6 (NIV) 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

But that isn't what he said. He said that a person "can have faith without love". If he means salvific faith, he is wrong —hopefully it was just a typo. Then he said, "But without love, he's dead". I can only hope he means dead in the sense that he cannot have salvific faith. "Dead" in the sense that Paul uses to describe the need to be regenerated.

 

[setst777]

Mark Quayle said:
There's a difference between believing something is true, and believing IN HIM.

They don't? You say you believe —you do well; the demons also believe, and tremble!

In the context of my message, which you replied to, you disagreed that faith in Lord Jesus can come about by us without being generated first. That was the context of my reply to you.

So, I say again, the Scriptures do not make the distinction you are making; in that, as you teach, faith in Christ, unlike other faiths, can only be achieved if one first is made alive by the Spirit. That belief is contrary to all the Scriptures.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith, and is by the Spirit indwelling us by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Sinners are transferred from darkness to light {{{by Faith}}}, manifested by following Him.

John 8:12 (WEB) “I am the light of the world. {Isaiah 60:1} He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 6:7 (WEB) 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

John 12:36 (WEB) 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Sinners have crossed over from death to life by faith:

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Those who hear his word, and believe, are the ones that have eternal life. These believers, therefore, do not come under judgment, but instead have passed out of death into life.

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but "has passed" [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] ((out of death into life))”

Acts 16:30 (WEB) 30 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Mark Quayle said:
What it says is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And I see nowhere in the immediate context that claims the definition of the Gospel = "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". You are adding to scripture, my man, bending it to fit your soteriology and ecclesiology. That is sloppy, at best, and misleading.

The call to repentance for the forgiveness of sins is an essential aspect of the Gospel proclamation that Christ commanded to be preached to all nations, starting at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:46-47
Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance [μετάνοια, metánoia] for the forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

Are you not sloughing over from "Gospel" to "Great commission"? Would you now characterize the Gospel as, "REPENT !", and that's it???

The Good News is that are sins are blotted out if we repent and convert, following Lord Jesus who died for us.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted [turned], that your sins may be blotted out

1. Repentance is a gift from God too. Impossible for one to do, apart from the work of the Spirit of God. 2. The whole point of the great commission is repentance? But, besides those two things, what I said was that the context does not say, and this time I will include my emphasis, so you can read it, "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". One is not saved by repenting, nor by man-made ability to believe, but by the gift of faith, from which comes repentance and ability to believe salvifically.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

Mark Quayle said:
I did not say that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us. I said the Spirit of God generates that faith within us.

Assertion only. The dead cannot raise themselves to life.

We are raised with Christ by faith, not so we can believe.

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

Yes, from within him will flow rivers of living water. That is a reference to the Spirit of God. The same Spirit that they would receive at Pentecost. Once again, as though I haven't told you this before, the coming of the Spirit of God at Pentecost does not preclude his regenerating the elect before Pentecost.

God's Spirit did indwell the Kings of Israel, and the Judges of Israel, and in prophets of God, and temporarily indwelt some people to do special tasks, but the pouring out of the Spirit on everyone who believes is an Old Testament prophecy - a Promise of the Spirit that was fulfilled after the Glorification of Lord Jesus, and specifically began on the Day of Pentecost on those who believe.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Why can't you see this plain Scripture?

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

There is no regeneration or life without the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you - a New Covenant Promise to all believers.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the {Spirit of Christ}, he is not his. 10 If Christ is IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive [regeneration] because of righteousness.

The Spirit, and the life he generates within us, is by faith in Lord Jesus.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Mark Quayle said:
Repeating, again: That does not mean that in the Old Testament, that anyone came to saving faith of their own fallen free will, at enmity with God, nor does it imply that in the New Testament, it is possible for anyone to have saving faith in and of their own power.

Faith comes by hearing the Word about Christ. The Spirit also convicts with the Word, but just as the Word can be rejected, so too, the Spirit is resisted by many.

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always do resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, you do also.

Many refused to be taught by God, even those he was teaching them again and again.

Isaiah 30:9 For these people are rebellious, false sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord.

Jeremiah 32:33 They’ve turned their away from me; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction.

Therefore, you are believing a doctrine of deception that is causing you to reject what God plainly states in His Word.

Assertion only.

This is amazing. You keep doing this, claiming that these show mankind at enmity with God is able to receive the spirit of their own volition. HOW?? I ask. Only by the Spirit having already raised them from death to life. Do you honestly think that only if YOU are aware of something that it can happen???

We become friends of God by faith, just as Abraham did.

James 2:23 (WEB) 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness,” [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God [reconciliation].

 

[setst777]

But that isn't what he said. He said that a person "can have faith without love". If he means salvific faith, he is wrong —hopefully it was just a typo. Then he said, "But without love, he's dead". I can only hope he means dead in the sense that he cannot have salvific faith. "Dead" in the sense that Paul uses to describe the need to be regenerated.

True, if he meant by "faith without love" is also a salvific faith, then he is wrong. Is that what he stated? You indicate that this likely is not the case, because he said that such a faith is "dead."

 

[ladodgers6]

I don't see how the truth of the scriptures, nor the Reformed doctrine concerning faith and salvation, differ from what @ladodgers6 said. He was emphasizing the difference between the faith and its necessary results —not at all denying the necessity of those results.

They make the mistake of conflating Justification & Sanctification, which then is another gospel based on human performance, instead of the finished works of Christ.

 

[ladodgers6]

The law was not given to justify, it was given as a way of human life pleasing to God (Lev 18:5).

The law is about human life, not spiritual life.
Faith is about spiritual life. . .and unbelief is about spiritual death.
The blessing of the law for obedience is immortality--human life. . .and the curse of the law for disobedience is mortality--human death.

Perfect observance of the law would result in no human death, it would not result in no spiritual death (i.e., salvation--eternal life).
Salvation since Abraham in Genesis has been by faith only (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:1-5), not by law keeping.
The Mosaic law was not added (Gal 3:19) to the Abrahamic covenant for the sake of righteousness to salvation, which was already by faith only.
The Law was added to reveal sin (Ro 3:20), to show its nature as spiritual defilement.

Law keeping has never been for salvation, for salvation has always been by faith (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:1-5).

Okay, before I retort, how is a sinner Justified? Please define it as much as possible, because I do not want to caricature your position. And how is a righteous man found righteous?

 

[ladodgers6]

That "Reformed" teach that repentance is inseparable from faith by which God saves us. Prominent Reformed leaders have emphasized this connection in their writings and teachings. I quote a reputable Reformed source, "The Ligonier," on this very thing:

"Along with the apostles, the Protestant Reformers knew that the biblical understanding of justification would meet such objections. This is one reason why Luther, Calvin, and the other magisterial Reformers were always careful to emphasize the importance of repentance in conjunction with faith. In doing so, they echo the many places in the New Testament where repentance and faith are both enumerated as necessary for salvation (for example, Acts 2:38).

Faith and repentance can be distinguished for the sake of instruction. However, they can never be separated. Indeed, if faith is the utter reliance upon Christ alone for salvation one cannot have true faith unless he turns away from sin in heartfelt sorrow. Without repentance, a person really hopes in his own “goodness” and in the fleeting pleasures of sin instead of God’s provision in Christ."

Faith and Repentance | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

www.ligonier.org

As I read through the writings of the Reformed leaders, the Reformed position maintains that true faith inherently includes repentance, and both are essential for salvation. The debates within Reformed Tradition typically focuses on the nuances of their relationship rather than a fundamental disagreement on their inseparability. Therefore, your view regarding repentance is not Reformed teaching, as you stated.

The Scriptures teach us that, unless a person repents of their sins, faith is meaningless and unacceptable to God - the wrath of God remains on those who refuse to repent.

Romans 2:3-4 (WEB)
3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you for/to/into [Greek: eis] repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath. . .

Apostle Paul disagrees with you.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance for/to/into [Greek: eis] salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

Acts 26:19-20 (WEB) 19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn [convert] to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

The Apostle Peter disagrees with you.

Acts 2:28 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for/to/into [Greek: eis] for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted [turned], that your sins may be blotted out

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Lord Jesus disagrees with you.

Luke 24:46-47 (WEB) 46 “So it is written, and so it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for/to/into [Greek: eis] the forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Luke 5:32 (WEB) "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners for/to/into [Greek: eis] repentance."

God the Father disagrees with you.

Acts 17:30 Now God commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

Pastor John MacArthur disagrees with you.

John MacArthur preached about a "faith" that always includes repentance by which God saves us.

What Is Biblical Repentance?

Repentance is no more a meritorious work than its counterpart, faith. It is an inward response. Genuine repentance pleads with the Lord to forgive...

www.gty.org

In that sense, John McArthur would be teaching about a "Faith" that is Biblical, while your view is anti-Biblical; in that, you reject God the Father, Lord Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the Apostle Peter who all plainly instruct us that, without repentance, our sins remain, and we have no salvation.

But all of them will agree that it's not repentance that justifies the sinner. Repentance is the fruit not the cause, do you understand this? If our Repentance contributes anything to our justification, then it's no longer Grace, but works. This is a huge difference.

The ground or basis of our justification is the perfect lifelong obedience of Jesus Christ, as well as his atoning sufferings and death. In one word, Scripture calls that Christ's righteousness. We are not justified on the basis of our righteousness, whether our good works, our faith, or our repentance.

 

[ladodgers6]

You're reading through the lens of a skewed theology. Were all enjoined to be perfect, to be who we were created to be- and sinners are not who we were created to be!
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48
“You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Pet 1:16

One does not have to be under the law, one does not even need to hear the law, in order to be obedient to it. To obey the commandments, to be obedient, to be righteous are all the result of knowing, believing in, hoping in, and, most importantly, loving God. That is the whole point of the new covenant! The law is right, as Paul tells us in Rom 7. But it cannot accomplish true righteousness in you, only God can! The law can only point to, testify about, that righteousness (Rom 3:21), and so, yes, convict us of our unrighteousness by contrast. We need Something more, Someone more; we lack the very basis of authentic righteousness by being on our own.

And He knows it's a process, this coming near to Him, that won't be finished until the next life, But it's a road we must embark on now. So, no, you cannot go about raping, torturing, stealing, committing adultery, and killing and expect to even know God let alone be with Him just because you believe, LOL. Faith leads to God, to unity with Him, to agreement with Him, ultimately to full-out love for Him, or it's worthless, just talk. Fellowship with Him makes you holy; He puts His law in your mind and writes it on your heart. That's to be under grace, walking in the Spirit who indwells, acting out of love which obeys, by its nature.

No Sir, I am a sinner, who stands before God guilty as they come, nothing to give or offer God to gain favor or merit anything, because I am under the curse of the Law, which brings only death, condemnation and punishment. The only place for a sinner is God's Mercy & Grace which he gives Freely to those who believe in him who justifies the "UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). Does this passage say justifies those who perform good deeds, for what good deeds can a fallen sinner offer God? Christ came to redeem sinners, not the righteous; he came to heal the sick, not the healthy.

But you seek to establish your own righteousness and will not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness. In other words, you do not believe that Christ is sufficient or enough to redeem anything, because man has to do his part which is distorting the Gospel message of Free Grace that is not earned, merited or deserved, but still God gives it freely through the proclamation of the Gospel.

Your theology is of the serpent, distorting God's truth, and that you do not need Grace, but just your human efforts to reach God like Babel, right???​

 

[setst777]

But all of them will agree that it's not repentance that justifies the sinner.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret.

Repentance is the fruit not the cause, do you understand this?

Fruits come from repentance

Acts 26:20 (NIV) First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

God does not repent for us; rather, God commands all sinners everywhere to repent.

Acts 17:30 Now God commands all people everywhere to repent

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

God patiently leads us to repentance, but many stubbornly refuse his grace (Romans 2:4-5).

While God enables repentance through the provision of the Gospel invitation and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this enabling is not efficacious in the sense that it guarantees a response of repentance. For instance: "Romans 2:4-5" illustrates that God’s kindness is meant to lead to repentance, but individuals can harden their hearts and refuse the Gospel Invitation (Matthew 22:3) and resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51). By this enabling grace, God calls and commands all sinners everywhere to repent indiscriminately (Acts 17:30).

Therefore, God's provision of the Gospel, the Spirit working with the Gospel, indiscriminately "enables" all sinners (Jews and Gentiles alike) to respond in repentance. However, this "enabling" is not taught in Scripture to be regenerative. The "enabling" of God respects the sinner's free will as He graciously and patiently leads us to repentance. God allows all individuals to accept or refuse the Gospel Call to repentance. Sinners can and do refuse the Gospel and resist the Spirit, as the Scriptures teach; for instance: Romans 2:4-5; Matthew 22:3; Acts 7:51.

If our Repentance contributes anything to our justification, then it's no longer Grace, but works. This is a huge difference.

That is what you believe. Why can't you find it in yourself to believe God? His Word is plain to understand.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The ground or basis of our justification is the perfect lifelong obedience of Jesus Christ, as well as his atoning sufferings and death. In one word, Scripture calls that Christ's righteousness. We are not justified on the basis of our righteousness, whether our good works, our faith, or our repentance.

Any Christian who continues practicing sin is of the devil.

1 John 3:7 Little children [warning Spirit-indwelt Christians], let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous [sanctified] as he is righteous. 8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil

I can see you are definitely not of the "Reformed Church." The Reformers unanimously insisted on the necessity for the forsaking of sin and a commitment to the works of love, holiness of heart and obedience as part of the overall work of salvation. They never taught that a person could be justified and not be sanctified.

The Reformers on the Necessity for Repentance and the Works of Sanctification – Christian Resources

christiantruth.com

christiantruth.com/articles/reformers/

We are justified and reconciled by God through our faith, just as Abraham was justified by his faith in God.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

And faith is never separated from repentance, by which we humbly submit to God.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret.

 

[fhansen]

James disagrees with you. It is the faith that is without works, that is dead.

Don't you know where Christian works come from? Do you know why the sheep would've fed the hungry and clothed the naked in Matt 25? Or why Jesus died for you? Do you understand why the greatest commandments are the greatest, and why love, particularly, is the greatest out of the three virtues: faith, hope, and love- why love, particularly, defines man's justice/righteousness, IOW? Do you why love fulfills the law? It's because love is the right and true motivation for obedience of God. Faith without works is dead because faith without love is dead. Faith doesn't cause some blind, robotic obedience, rather it is the means to love as faith is the means to God, the very Source of love- and love works, by its nature, for the good of others. Augustine put it this way,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
And Paul:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

And those gifts of grace are both gifts, and choices, to accept and act upon them. And the more we do, the more they grow in us, increasingly transforming us into the image of God.

And we've already thoroughly covered Claire's assertions on this in the past. So has Paul:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Jesus didn't die so you may continue or remain in your sins-just the opposite.

Words matter...

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:8–10)​

A person who is "in the flesh" cannot please God (verse 8). But I am not "in the flesh" but I am "in the Spirit" simply because the Spirit of God lives in me (verse 9a). This is true for every other person in whom the Spirit of God dwells. However, if the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in him, he is "in the flesh", he "cannot please God", and he does not belong to God. (verses 8-9b). And for every person who is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" because the Spirit of Christ dwells in them, their "body is dead because of sin" but their spirit is alive because of the righteousness of the Spirit who lives in them and in whom they live (verse 10).

There is no way to go back, to kill the new life that Christ's presence created. I hate sin and love God because He created me that way when He came to live in my heart. I have passed from death to life, and nothing is strong enough to take me from life back to death. Not sin, not the flesh, not the devil, nothing.

Concerning the flesh, which I am not in, but which is present with me, I walk with Christ and enjoy the forgiveness and lack of condemnation that His sacrifice won for me. I recognize the lusts of the flesh because they are easy to identify. And I understand that the only way to deny the flesh what it wants and to avoid the fruits obeying its lusts produce is to walk in lock step with the Spirit who lives in me and leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects and comforts me from the depths of my own heart. I do not live in fear of losing what I have gained in Christ because I trust Him when He tells me that it is forever.

There's nothing man can do about past sins but that's the past: we're forgiven of those and given a whole new life now: able to be slaves to righteousness instead of to sin (Rom 6).

Scripture does not speak of people being given "the ability" to be slaves of righteousness. It speaks of those who once were slaves of sin but who now are slaves of righteousness...

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Ro 6:17–18)​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

There's a "third path": yours. And that path doesn't address those verses at all in any serious manner, while mine does. God is not asking for absolute perfect sinlessness when we walk by the Spirit, but we must not remain as we were; we must be on the "journey to perfection" as the church has put it, putting sin to death, certainly not persistently engaged in gross anti-Spirt, anti-love, anti-Christ activity, which He gives you the power now to triumph over.

Yours is the first path and mine is the second path. There is no third path. My path addresses the verses that I quoted in "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). You address the requirement for true righteousness and holiness (without which no one will see God) by saying it is not required. This undermines the path you have chosen and is an admission that it doesn't work.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You're reading through the lens of a skewed theology. Were all enjoined to be perfect, to be who we were created to be- and sinners are not who we were created to be!
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48
“You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Pet 1:16

Good luck with THAT!

 

[setst777]

Words matter...

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:8–10)​

A person who is "in the flesh" cannot please God (verse 8). But I am not "in the flesh" but I am "in the Spirit" simply because the Spirit of God lives in me (verse 9a). This is true for every other person in whom the Spirit of God dwells. However, if the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in him, he is "in the flesh", he "cannot please God", and he does not belong to God. (verses 8-9b). And for every person who is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" because the Spirit of Christ dwells in them, their "body is dead because of sin" but their spirit is alive because of the righteousness of the Spirit who lives in them and in whom they live (verse 10).

The will of the Spirit is to indwell all those who commit to an obedient repentant faith in Lord Jesus.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent (change of mind and purpose), and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (Young’s Literal Translation)15 `If you love me, keep my commands, 16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age; 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:21 (WEB) 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

There is no way to go back, to kill the new life that Christ's presence created. I hate sin and love God because He created me that way when He came to live in my heart. I have passed from death to life, and nothing is strong enough to take me from life back to death. Not sin, not the flesh, not the devil, nothing.

As we follow Christ by faith, which is our responsibility before God, the indwelling Spirit continues to lead us to Life - guaranteed.

Romans 8:12 So, brethren, we are obligated – but not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you [brethren] live according to the flesh, you will Die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will Live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

“Life” or “Eternal Life” is given by the Spirit to the “believer” who continuously sows to the Spirit, not to flesh.

Galatians 6:7-9 Paul warns the Galatian Christians 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Galatians 5:24-25 [instruction for Christians] 24 Those who belong to Christ [saved] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 I say, walk by the Spirit, and you [the Galatian Christians who are indwelt by the Spirit] won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh... 21 I have repeatedly warned you that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

Concerning the flesh, which I am not in, but which is present with me, I walk with Christ and enjoy the forgiveness and lack of condemnation that His sacrifice won for me. I recognize the lusts of the flesh because they are easy to identify. And I understand that the only way to deny the flesh what it wants and to avoid the fruits obeying its lusts produce is to walk in lock step with the Spirit who lives in me and leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects and comforts me from the depths of my own heart. I do not live in fear of losing what I have gained in Christ because I trust Him when He tells me that it is forever.

Eternal Life is Eternal, and is given to those who believe (present and continuous).

1 John 3:7 Little children [warning Spirit-indwelt Christians], let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous [sanctified] as he is righteous. 8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil

Do not be like Esau, who sold his birthright for a bowl of stew, losing his inheritance for temporary pleasures. After you die, it’s too late to repent.

Hebrews 12:12-18 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it, 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

Gentiles share in the Promises made to Israel, grafted into Christ by faith. The Gentile is admonished to remain faithful to remain in The Promise that was made to Israel.

To “remain faithful” is repeatedly explained in Scripture to include repentance – dead to sin to follow Christ, just as Baptism represents.

Romans 11:19-21 You will say, “Branches [unfaithful Jews] were broken off, that I [a Gentile] might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [the Jews who fell], neither will he spare you. See then God’s goodness and severity. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

The Apostle Paul admonishes Gentile Christians that, what happened to the Jews (who are God’s Promised People) will surely happen to them; therefore, we are to learn from their example and remain faithful.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples [regarding the Jews who fell away]; in that, we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Don’t be idolaters, as some of them [Jews who fell] were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:6] 8 Let us [Christians] not commit sexual immorality, as some of them [Jews who fell] committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let us [Christians] not test Christ, as some of them [Jews who fell] tested, and perished by the serpents. 10 Don’t grumble, as some of them [Jews who fell] also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them [Jews who fell] by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore, let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall.

The Israelites who fell are examples to warn Christians.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us [Christians] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brothers and sisters [Christians], lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire each of you to show the same diligence in this hope firm to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the Promises [the Promises made to Israel that Gentiles share in]

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yours is the first path and mine is the second path. There is no third path. My path addresses the verses that I quoted in "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). You address the requirement for true righteousness and holiness (without which no one will see God) by saying it is not required. This undermines the path you have chosen and is an admission that it doesn't work.

Well put.

 

[setst777]

Good luck with THAT!

It's not a matter of luck, but is by a Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:19 God’s solid foundation stands, having this inscription, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” [sanctification]

Christians reject God, and his Spirit living in us, when they do not continue to live sanctified lives onto God that we committee to when we first believed, turning to God in repentance.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (Paul addressed the born-again Christians, admonishing them) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because, the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we keep warning you. 7 For God called us [Christians] not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

So, if a Christian does not continue or remain in a sanctified life unto righteousness, is he still saved?

Romans 8:12 So, brethren, we are obligated – but not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you [brethren] live according to the flesh, you will Die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will Live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

As a Christian walks in the light, which is sanctified life onto God, then any sins we do commit in weakness, God is faithful and just to forgive. But if a Christian begins to live in any sin, then he has become the devil's own.

1 John 1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 3:7 Little children [addressing and warning Christians], let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's not a matter of luck, but is by a Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus.

If you believe in libertarian free will, you believe in luck.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So, if a Christian does not continue or remain in a sanctified life unto righteousness, is he still saved?

There is no such thing as an Elect believer who does not continue or remain in a sanctified life. There are some, maybe many, Elect, who do not produce much good works, and that 'quench the Spirit', and often rebel, and their works will profit them little in Heaven, but they themselves will be saved, yet so as by fire.

There are many who call themselves "Christian" and even believe themselves to be so, but are not born again, and so "[do] not continue or remain in a sanctified life unto righteousness, [because they are not saved]."

 

[setst777]

There is no such thing as an Elect believer who does not continue or remain in a sanctified life. There are some, maybe many, Elect, who do not produce much good works, and that 'quench the Spirit', and often rebel, and their works will profit them little in Heaven, but they themselves will be saved, yet so as by fire.

There are many who call themselves "Christian" and even believe themselves to be so, but are not born again, and so "[do] not continue or remain in a sanctified life unto righteousness, [because they are not saved]."

God graciously elects to save those who believe demonstrated by bowing down to no one but Lord Jesus, serving and following him (Romans 11:3-6; John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21; John 8:12).

Yes, the "Elect" will live sanctified lives and cannot be deceived. But to be Elect (chosen by grace) is through faith. So, if we remain faithful, we remain one of God's elect. If we do not remain faithful, then we do not remain God's Elect - for the election of grace is by faith in Lord Jesus.

God will keep us from falling (Jude 1:24) if we keep ourselves in the love God by faith (Jude 1:21).

 

[Clare73]

James describes a faith that does not save, the kind of faith demons have.

On Judgment Day, many who believe in Christ but reject him as their Lord whom they follow in righteousness are in for a rude awakening, even though they call him "Lord" and did many works in his name, and others who were waiting for Christ to arrive but did not follow him.

Matthew 7:22-23 (WEB) 22 Many will tell me on that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

See post #913.

Matthew 25:11-13 (WEB) 11 Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Most certainly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.