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fhansen

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AHHH! NOW comes the messy texture of your additions to the Gospel.

Where do the Scriptures teach that we can reject the gift of faith?
For all practical purposes that’s what Adam did to begin with. Preferring faith in himself to faith in God he dismissed Gods authority, not heeding Him, not hearing His voice which would be to acknowledge God as his God. Our own experience in this world should be enough to drive home the fact that we, too, can stray, can be unfaithful, can continue the family tradition, or not.

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.” Heb 6:4-8

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22
 
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setst777

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The sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is the becoming a child of God (Jn 1:12-13).
The new birth results in faith, whereby one is saved from God's judgment on one's sin: Eph 2:8-9 - "You are saved by faith. "
Saved (salvation) is the forgiveness of sin by faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning death of Jesus Christ, whereby
one is declared sin free by God in justification.

We are children of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26
(WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

The believer receives God’s Spirit, alive by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), after he believes and becomes a child of God through faith.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

A person must first "drink (believe}" to receive Holy Spirit to give them life.

John 7:37
(WEB) “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!

The "anyone" who is thirsty is to “drink” of the Spirit by faith to have life from the Spirit: John 7:38]

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
 
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Mark Quayle

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For all practical purposes that’s what Adam did to begin with. Preferring faith in himself to faith in God he dismissed Gods authority, not heeding Him, not hearing His voice which would be to acknowledge God as his God. Our own experience in this world should be enough to drive home the fact that we, too, can stray, can be unfaithful, can continue the family tradition, or not.

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.” Heb 6:4-8

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right about Adam. How does that translate to all since Adam, who are born in sin? We have no faith to reject, until God give it us. And he only gives it to those to whom he chose from the foundation of the world to show mercy, which he will never forsake, and whom he will bring to be with him in Heaven.

The Spirit of God, who generates that faith within us, will not leave us. We are 'sealed up' in Christ. Not one of those to whom God gave that faith will be lost.

And don't try to take what I say there to mean it is ok for those who consider themselves to have faith, to live in sin.
 
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setst777

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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right about Adam. How does that translate to all since Adam, who are born in sin? We have no faith to reject, until God give it us. And he only gives it to those to whom he chose from the foundation of the world to show mercy, which he will never forsake, and whom he will bring to be with him in Heaven.

Do you need God to give you faith each time you believe in anything?
Do not all people have the ability to have faith in something or someone?
Do not even pets have faith that their owners will love them and care for them?

Faith in Christ comes from hearing the message of the Gospel - a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved.

Romans 10:17-18 (WEB) 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did; Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

The Spirit of God, who generates that faith within us, will not leave us. We are 'sealed up' in Christ. Not one of those to whom God gave that faith will be lost.

And don't try to take what I say there to mean it is ok for those who consider themselves to have faith, to live in sin.

Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that plainly state that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us without adding to or reinterpreting Scripture to fit your own beliefs.

The Scriptures state we receive the Spirit, and life in the Spirit, by faith:

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
 
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Mark Quayle

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We are children of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26
(WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

The believer receives God’s Spirit, alive by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), after he believes and becomes a child of God through faith.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

A person must first "drink (believe}" to receive Holy Spirit to give them life.

John 7:37
(WEB) “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!

The "anyone" who is thirsty is to “drink” of the Spirit by faith to have life from the Spirit: John 7:38]

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
How does anything you have quoted here disagree with what @Clare73 wrote? Only in the mind of those who sequence the faith produced by the Spirit of God within us as a RESULT of some kind of faith generated by the willpower and wisdom and constancy of desire of those who are yet at enmity with Christ —for this is what they think is called 'believing' in Scripture— do these Scriptures disagree with her.

Only by your tone, and by that one assertion —that the believer receives God's Spirit after he believes— could I even tell that you were disagreeing with her.
 
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setst777

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How does anything you have quoted here disagree with what @Clare73 wrote? Only in the mind of those who sequence the faith produced by the Spirit of God within us as a RESULT of some kind of faith generated by the willpower and wisdom and constancy of desire of those who are yet at enmity with Christ —for this is what they think is called 'believing' in Scripture— do these Scriptures disagree with her.

Only by your tone, and by that one assertion —that the believer receives God's Spirit after he believes— could I even tell that you were disagreeing with her.

You really have to learn how to communicate.

Here is what Clare wrote:

Clare73 said:
The sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is the becoming a child of God (Jn 1:12-13).
The new birth results in faith,

Clare is teaching the exact opposite of what the Scriptures teach, which I pointed out.

The New Birth of the indwelling Holy Spirit does NOT result in faith and becoming a child of God; rather, by faith we become children of God. And because we do believe, God sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts.

Do you see the disagreement yet???

We are children of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26
(WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

The believer receives God’s Spirit, alive by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), after he believes and becomes a child of God through faith.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

A person must first "drink (believe}" to receive Holy Spirit to give them life.

John 7:37
(WEB) “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!

The "anyone" who is thirsty is to “drink” of the Spirit by faith to have life from the Spirit: John 7:38]

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Do you need God to give you faith each time you believe in anything?
There's a difference between believing something is true, and believing IN HIM.
Do not all people have the ability to have faith in something or someone?
Do not even pets have faith that their owners will love them and care for them?
Of course. But that isn't what we are talking about.
Faith in Christ comes from hearing the message of the Gospel - a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved.
What it says is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And I see nowhere in the immediate context that claims the definition of the Gospel = "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". You are adding to scripture, my man, bending it to fit your soteriology and ecclesiology. That is sloppy, at best, and misleading.
Romans 10:17-18 (WEB) 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did; Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”



Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that plainly state that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us without adding to or reinterpreting Scripture to fit your own beliefs.
I did not say that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us. I said the Spirit of God generates that faith within us.
The Scriptures state we receive the Spirit, and life in the Spirit, by faith:

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Since you underline "anyone" in that verse, I assume you think it is random who will and who will not. I ask, as always, how does one at enmity with God, and unable to please Him, suddenly, uncharacteristically, somehow produce that valid faith unto salvation?

Second, since you asked it of me, and did not ask it of those I love and mostly agree with on this site, I will give you my take. Verse 39 is indeed, as you seem to think, referring to the Acts 2 event on Pentecost. This does not mean that the Spirit was not around, and even indwelling, those who had faith in God, even in the Old Testament. Pentecost was a different sort of filling, for at least two purposes —one being to show the power of God to unbelievers, and the second, to formally introduce the work of the Spirit of God as "comforter" and "paraclete".

Repeating, again: That does not mean that in the Old Testament, that anyone came to saving faith of their own fallen free will, at enmity with God, nor does it imply that in the New Testament, it is possible for anyone to have saving faith in and of their own power.
 
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fhansen

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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right about Adam. How does that translate to all since Adam, who are born in sin? We have no faith to reject, until God give it us. And he only gives it to those to whom he chose from the foundation of the world to show mercy, which he will never forsake, and whom he will bring to be with him in Heaven.
It's not quite that way, it's not that we're totally cut off from the very Source of our existence such that we cannot recognize and respond to His handiwork, His image within our very selves. So we can at least know that there's something missing especially in a world that doesn't know and serve God with all the ugliness that results from that. We need to be still, and know that He is God.

God draws us by faith in many ways. Paul says in Rom 1 that creation itself testifies to the existence of God so that there's no excuse for unbelief. Adam's game is a fool's game and one that we can continue to participate in if we're drawn more strongly by the world than we are to God. Grace is there. We just need to embrace it, and keep embracing it. God's not a fool. It's not a one-time thing; it's what we do daily, continuously that retains and grows justice/righteousness in us.

It all begins with faith which is the beginning of our relationship with Him. He does not force it upon us. Jesus gives us a God truly worth knowing, truly worth believing in, truly worth hoping in, and most importantly truly worth loving. To the extent that we love God, our justice or righteousness is complete, there's no turning back. The bond between us would be complete and the choice between good and evil would be completely resolved. Until then we can still choose evil over good, death over life, no God over God.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You really have to learn how to communicate.

Here is what Clare wrote:

Clare73 said:
The sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is the becoming a child of God (Jn 1:12-13).
The new birth results in faith,

Clare is teaching the exact opposite of what the Scriptures teach, which I pointed out.

The New Birth of the indwelling Holy Spirit does NOT result in faith and becoming a child of God; rather, by faith we become children of God. And because we do believe, God sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts.

Do you see the disagreement yet???

We are children of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26
(WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

The believer receives God’s Spirit, alive by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), after he believes and becomes a child of God through faith.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

A person must first "drink (believe}" to receive Holy Spirit to give them life.

John 7:37
(WEB) “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!

The "anyone" who is thirsty is to “drink” of the Spirit by faith to have life from the Spirit: John 7:38]

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strongest point. As I pointed out before, the SEQUENCE of events is where you have it wrong. Of COURSE I see the difference! I pointed it out the first time! You are only repeating yourself here. No new information.
 
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fhansen

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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right about Adam. How does that translate to all since Adam, who are born in sin? We have no faith to reject, until God give it us. And he only gives it to those to whom he chose from the foundation of the world to show mercy, which he will never forsake, and whom he will bring to be with him in Heaven.
It's not quite that way, it's not that we're totally cut off from the very Source of our existence such that we cannot recognize and respond to His handiwork, His image within our very selves. So we can at least know that there's something missing especially in a world that doesn't know and serve God, with all the ugliness that results from that. We need to be still, and know that He is God.

God draws us to faith in many ways. Paul says in Rom 1 that creation itself testifies to the existence of God so that there's no excuse for unbelief. Adam's game is a fool's game and one that we can continue to participate in if we're drawn more strongly by the world than we are to God. Grace is there. We just need to embrace it, and keep embracing it. God's not a fool. It's not a one-time thing; it's what we do daily, continuously that retains and grows His justice/righteousness in us.

It all begins with faith which is the beginning of our relationship with Him. He does not force it upon us. Jesus gives us a God truly worth knowing, truly worth believing in, truly worth hoping in, and most importantly, truly worth loving. To the extent that we love God, our justice or righteousness is complete, there's no turning back.The bond between us would be complete and the choice between good and evil would be completely resolved. Until then we can still choose evil over good, death over life, no God over God.
 
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setst777

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There's a difference between believing something is true, and believing IN HIM.

So you say. But the Scriptures do not teach the difference you imagine.

What it says is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And I see nowhere in the immediate context that claims the definition of the Gospel = "a call to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus to be saved". You are adding to scripture, my man, bending it to fit your soteriology and ecclesiology. That is sloppy, at best, and misleading.

READ the Context.

The Gospel Message is a call to repentance. That is the whole point of the Great Commission that Christ commanded to be preached to all nations.

Luke 24:46-47 (WEB) 46 “So it is written, and so it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 20:20 [I have] taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 earnestly declaring to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Lord Jesus was sent from the Father to earth to call sinners to repentance. Read the Scriptures.

Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I did not say that the Spirit of God regenerates that faith within us. I said the Spirit of God generates that faith within us.

Same thing. That is what regeneration is: to make alive. A person first has to believe to be made alive by indwelling Spirit.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Since you underline "anyone" in that verse, I assume you think it is random who will and who will not. I ask, as always, how does one at enmity with God, and unable to please Him, suddenly, uncharacteristically, somehow produce that valid faith unto salvation?

As Scripture states: By faith we receive eternal life.

John 3:36 (NIV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Second, since you asked it of me, and did not ask it of those I love and mostly agree with on this site, I will give you my take. Verse 39 is indeed, as you seem to think, referring to the Acts 2 event on Pentecost. This does not mean that the Spirit was not around, and even indwelling, those who had faith in God, even in the Old Testament. Pentecost was a different sort of filling, for at least two purposes —one being to show the power of God to unbelievers, and the second, to formally introduce the work of the Spirit of God as "comforter" and "paraclete".

The Indwelling of the Spirit to all believers (whoever) is a New Covenant Promise that OT Prophecy foretold - to anyone who believes.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Repeating, again: That does not mean that in the Old Testament, that anyone came to saving faith of their own fallen free will, at enmity with God, nor does it imply that in the New Testament, it is possible for anyone to have saving faith in and of their own power.

All those in the OT believed before ever receiving the Holy Spirit. The Promise of Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit was made possible only by Christ's sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritancenow that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We receive the Spirit by faith, and this "Promised Spirit" was only made possible in the New Covenant. The "Promise" was only a prophetic promise, not yet a reality, that the Scriptures foretold, until the New Covenant was established by Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:14 (NIV) 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive "the promise" of the Spirit through faith.
 
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setst777

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Faith without love is not saving faith, it is counterfeit faith, as in Mt 7:21-23.

Isn't that the same thing that fhansen was saying? What is your argument?

fhansen said:
The person can have faith without love. But without love, he's dead.

A person can have faith in Jesus without repentance, without conversion, without love, but that is not the faith God accepts to be saved. Such "faith" is dead, as fhansen was explaining.
 
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Clare73

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Isn't that the same thing that fhansen was saying? What is your argument?

fhansen said:
The person can have faith without love. But without love, he's dead.

A person can have faith in Jesus without repentance, without conversion, without love, but that is not the faith God accepts to be saved. Such "faith" is dead, as fhansen was explaining.
In the Bible, it is not faith at all, it is counterfeit, false.

He presents the counterfeit and false as simply deficient faith, but they are not faith at all.
 
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setst777

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In the Bible, it is not faith at all, it is counterfeit, false.

He presents the counterfeit and false as simply deficient faith, but they are not faith at all.

True. There is a faith without love that is dead. And there is a faith by which God saves us which includes love. I don't understand your argument.
 
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James disagrees with you. It is the faith that is without works, that is dead.

The use of the word "dead faith," in the context of what fhansen was explaining is a faith that does not save. The word "dead" is just one of many words that could have been used to describe a faith by which God does not save us.

Galatians 5:6 (NIV) 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
 
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setst777

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In the Bible, it is not faith at all, it is counterfeit, false.

He presents the counterfeit and false as simply deficient faith, but they are not faith at all.

James describes a faith that does not save, the kind of faith demons have.

On Judgment Day, many who believe in Christ but reject him as their Lord whom they follow in righteousness are in for a rude awakening, even though they call him "Lord" and did many works in his name, and others who were waiting for Christ to arrive but did not follow him.

Matthew 7:22-23 (WEB) 22 Many will tell me on that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

Matthew 25:11-13 (WEB) 11 Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Most certainly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
 
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