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SALVATION

NewLifeInChristJesus

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In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?
Let's break this down a bit.
  • "salvation is... a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God",
  • "salvation is... inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly",
  • "salvation is... doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc", and
  • salvation is not... "to persistently live in obvious, grave sin"
Am I wrong to conclude that salvation is performance-based (in ancient church teachings)?
 
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fhansen

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We agree we are referring to the 9 (Special) Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and that we believe these Special Gifts are still in operation in His Church today as they were in His 1st century Church (chosen ones). His Church (Ekklesia is a Greek word defined as “a called-out assembly or congregation.”

We are not talking about man's role, but rather those chosen that receive a Special Gift(s) by means of the Holy Spirit as He wills. Special Gifts as: Wisdom, Healings, Miracles, Words of Knowledge, Discerning of spirits (deliveance) and the other 4 Gifts as God determines

He saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​
We can do nothing on our own-that's the point of the gospel. And God distributes His gifts as He wills. We just need to pick up our cross and follow.
 
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fhansen

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Let's break this down a bit.
  • "salvation is... a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God",
  • "salvation is... inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly",
  • "salvation is... doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc", and
  • salvation is not... "to persistently live in obvious, grave sin"
Am I wrong to conclude that salvation is performance-based (in ancient church teachings)?
No. You left out the most critical part. Salvation and the righteousness it necessitates is impossible apart from God, apart from grace, apart form the Holy Spirit. That's why the heart of the new Covenant is reconciliation and communion with God first before all else.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."
Jer 31:33-34
 
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BNR32FAN

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Which puts you right back at not correctly understanding the parables, as explained in posts #576, #607?
You say I don’t understand them yet you’re the one saying that tares are in Christ?
 
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BNR32FAN

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We agree we are referring to the 9 (Special) Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and that we believe these Special Gifts are still in operation in His Church today as they were in His 1st century Church (chosen ones). His Church (Ekklesia is a Greek word defined as “a called-out assembly or congregation.”

We are not talking about man's role, but rather those chosen that receive a Special Gift(s) by means of the Holy Spirit as He wills. Special Gifts as: Wisdom, Healings, Miracles, Words of Knowledge, Discerning of spirits (deliveance) and the other 4 Gifts as God determines

He saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​
Yet Paul made it clear that we can grieve the Holy Spirit and we cannot discern things that are spiritual if we focus our mind on the flesh. The Holy Spirit doesn’t automatically cause us to obey, obedience and discernment requires our cooperation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We agree we are referring to the 9 (Special) Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and that we believe these Special Gifts are still in operation in His Church today as they were in His 1st century Church (chosen ones). His Church (Ekklesia is a Greek word defined as “a called-out assembly or congregation.”

We are not talking about man's role, but rather those chosen that receive a Special Gift(s) by means of the Holy Spirit as He wills. Special Gifts as: Wisdom, Healings, Miracles, Words of Knowledge, Discerning of spirits (deliveance) and the other 4 Gifts as God determines

He saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​
I asked you about these verses twice and you haven’t responded.

In 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul wrote this to Timothy.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul made it clear that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ which would result in Christ denying them.

In James 5:19-20 James wrote this.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here James says that if one of the brethren strays from the truth their soul is in danger of death but if another brother turns him BACK then that brother will have saved his soul from death. This indicates that the one who strayed was saved before he turned away. Then after he turned away he was in danger of condemnation but IF he repents he can be saved but James makes it clear that they are not certain to repent. That’s why he didn’t say when one of the brethren turns him back, he said if they turn him back. Furthermore if the one who strayed was destined to turn back then his soul was never actually in danger of death.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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No. You left out the most critical part. Salvation and the righteousness it necessitates is impossible apart from God, apart from grace, apart form the Holy Spirit. That's why the heart of the new Covenant is reconciliation and communion with God first before all else.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34
I didn't see that part in the OP. But I do see performance based salvation in the OP and in your statement above that salvation necessitates righteousness. What I don't understand about performance based salvation is the idea that there exists commandments for which we do not need Christ's forgiveness for breaking.
 
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fhansen

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I didn't see that part in the OP. But I do see performance based salvation in the OP and in your statement above that salvation necessitates righteousness. What I don't understand about performance based salvation is the idea that there exists commandments for which we do not need Christ's forgiveness for breaking.
Alright, I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Let's break this down a bit.
  • "salvation is... a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God",
  • "salvation is... inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly",
  • "salvation is... doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc", and
  • salvation is not... "to persistently live in obvious, grave sin"
Am I wrong to conclude that salvation is performance-based (in ancient church teachings)?
Personally I think it’s not the works themselves that are taken into consideration but instead the motivation behind the works. In 1 Corinthians 13:

“And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Doing works for the wrong reason profits us nothing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I didn't see that part in the OP. But I do see performance based salvation in the OP and in your statement above that salvation necessitates righteousness. What I don't understand about performance based salvation is the idea that there exists commandments for which we do not need Christ's forgiveness for breaking.
Like what kind of commandments?
 
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fhansen

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Personally I think it’s not the works themselves that are taken into consideration but instead the motivation behind the works. In 1 Corinthians 13:

“And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Doing works for the wrong reason profits us nothing.
Exactly. And love, if it's the real thing, will work, will act for the good of others, by its nature.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Alright, I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.
Let's say for argument's sake that you're right, and salvation does necessitate righteousness. And let's use the OP's measuring stick: Salvation is "inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc."

If salvation requires living according to the righteousness we received from Christ, which includes "obeying the commandments", then you are saying the commandments must be obeyed for salvation to be real. And my challenge is for someone to identify one commandment that they always obey and therefore do not need Jesus' forgiveness for breaking it?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Like what kind of commandments?
Let's take the most important one to start with...

29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’" (Mk 12:29–30)​

Unless we are talking about "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), who among us can say that they fulfill the righteous requrements of this commandment? And if we are talking about the new man, then how can anyone judge another person as not being a new creature in Christ just because they observe them outwardly doing something wrong?
 
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fhansen

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Let's say for argument's sake that you're right, and salvation does necessitate righteousness. And let's use the OP's measuring stick: Salvation is "inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc."

If salvation requires living according to the righteousness we received from Christ, which includes "obeying the commandments", then you are saying the commandments must be obeyed for salvation to be real. And my challenge is for someone to identify one commandment that they always obey and therefore do not need Jesus' forgiveness for breaking it?
I don't understand the question. The ancient churches all teach the necessity of metanoia and repentance and confession for breaking a commandment, of turning away from sin all over again if we've turn back to those deeds of the flesh. So the acknowledgment of the necessity of and the existence of God's forgiveness is constantly acknowledged and experienced, as made necessary by our sin.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9
 
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BNR32FAN

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Unless we are talking about "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), who among us can say that they fulfill the righteous requrements of this commandment?
I would say that no one can fulfill them perfectly.
And if we are talking about the new man, then how can anyone judge another person as not being a new creature in Christ just because they observe them outwardly doing something wrong?
Because the very term “new creation” means that our old self has died and we have become a new person. If someone does not exhibit evidence that they are a new creation then they’re not. If someone says they’re born again but nothing has changed in them, then they’re not born again. Now we might see new Christians taking time to change. It certainly doesn’t happen overnight. It took me over a year to stop cursing when I came to Christ because it was something ingrained in me for several decades so it took time to rid myself of that habit. It really depends on what kind of offense or sin we’re talking about.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I don't understand the question. The ancient churches all teach the necessity of metanoia and repentance and confession for breaking a commandment, of turning away from sin all over again if we've turn back to those deeds of the flesh. So the acknowledgment of the necessity of and the existence of God's forgiveness is constantly acknowledged and experienced, as made necessary by our sin.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9
Then that means the ancient churches agree with me that obeying the commandments is not the mark of being a true Chriastian; it is having the forgiveness of Christ for breaking the commandments that is the mark of being a true Christian. They can't have it both ways. Either law-breakers are forgiven, or they are not forgiven. There are no law-abiding citizens, except One, of course.

In other words, they admit that the first position is flawed when they move the goal-post away from obeying the commandments to repentance and confession after breaking the commandments.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I would say that no one can fulfill them perfectly.

Because the very term “new creation” means that our old self has died and we have become a new person. If someone does not exhibit evidence that they are a new creation then they’re not.
The term is not superficial but has deep meaning. When Ephesians 4:24 says "put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), it points to the "new man" as being the "new creation". And it says the new man was created "according to God". And it says the new man was created "in true righteousness and holiness".

The new man can be seen only by the person who possesses it. But the genuinely good deeds that come from a person who "puts off the old man" and "puts on the new man" could lead a person to think that the person he is observing is saved, but he can't know it for sure. Likewise, observing false doctrines and practices in professing Christians (e.g., the Galatians) might lead a person to question their salvation, but it is not conclusive.
If someone says they’re born again but nothing has changed in them, then they’re not born again. Now we might see new Christians taking time to change. It certainly doesn’t happen overnight. It took me over a year to stop cursing when I came to Christ because it was something ingrained in me for several decades so it took time to rid myself of that habit. It really depends on what kind of offense or sin we’re talking about.
The caviat destroys the claim. If I observe you repeatedly cursing, do I say, "Let me give him a year to fix this before I determine he is not saved", or do I just go ahead and make the determination now? We might say, "If someone does not exhibit evidence that they are a new creation then they’re not."
 
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BNR32FAN

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The caviat destroys the claim. If I observe you repeatedly cursing, do I say, "Let me give him a year to fix this before I determine he is not saved", or do I just go ahead and make the determination now? We might say, "If someone does not exhibit evidence that they are a new creation then they’re not."
Like I said it depends on the nature of their sin. If we observe the person trying to refrain from sin then that is an indication that they are in the process of becoming a new creation. If that person shows no signs of refraining then that is evidence that they’re not a new creation. Hence, “you may know them by their fruits”. I didn’t go from cursing to not cursing in one single day but I did show signs of trying to refrain from it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Then that means the ancient churches agree with me that obeying the commandments is not the mark of being a true Chriastian; it is having the forgiveness of Christ for breaking the commandments that is the mark of being a true Christian.
The highlighted portion isn’t a mark because it’s not something that is noticeable.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The term is not superficial but has deep meaning. When Ephesians 4:24 says "put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), it points to the "new man" as being the "new creation". And it says the new man was created "according to God". And it says the new man was created "in true righteousness and holiness".
I’m not sure what your point is here.
 
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