• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

SALVATION

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,191
4,041
✟399,080.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If you will reread my post #588 it is about it being a church's denominational preference (which is quite evident in the 30+ pages of this thread. No where in my post (#588) did I ever imply abandoning God (God is not it)... rather your reference to the historical church (it) refers to abandoning a church whose doctrine/dogma may encourage someone to grow closer in their relationship to man's "historical church" than drawing closer in their relationship with Christ Jesus. In other words a historically domnate church may believe one's eternal life is only possible as a loyal, faithful member of that church.
Nonsense. This thread is about theological truth, regardless of where it comes from, not denominational preference. You quoted my post #578 where I had already made my point clear: "relationship with God is like any relationship in that we can value it and cultivate and nourish it; we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him." Obviously I was speaking about that relationship. Then I re-emphasized the same point in post #593, even explaining what abandoning God means.

You, OTOH, can reinterpret my posts to mean whatever you prefer, for whatever reason you may have. The historical church and ECFs happen to agree with me on these points- and I don't object. The object of the church is to introduce you to and help you draw closer to Christ BTW. That's been it's role from the beginning and at times it's done a better or worse job of it depending. But the essential teachings have remained.

As far as the thread is concerned you should take note that most of the conversations have a life of their own, with little or no input from me. I've offered further supporting opinions in follow up posts after the OP and people are free to agree or disagree, as always. And, incidentally, some do agree- regardless of denomination, or lack of one.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,386
Dallas
✟1,095,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Don't have time to reply now, but when i do i will. Thank you.

Sometimes i come fashionably late to a party so want to ask, are you discussing what the book of Romans says about the vine? I be back to check with more time
No I think you’re thinking about the olive tree in Romans 11. We’re talking about the Vine in John 15:1-7
 
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,446
651
68
Greenfield
Visit site
✟479,939.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What i mean by move on is let it rest. There are some obviously not seeing properly and pulling from everywhere to back their beliefs, and they don't want to let it go. You can repeat yourself, but when does it stop?

Unfortunately, as long as there are those who hold to the Calvinists/Reformists/Thomists doctrine, and others who hold to a doctrine of which Arminian/Wesleyan/Molinists teach, there will always be this critical division regarding the Gospel and the Faith of the Gospel, and all the Passages relating to that. And there are other divisions as well, but those are the major divisions.

Therefore, to just say, "move on," is naive, because the division is not being resolved.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,386
Dallas
✟1,095,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Unfortunately, as long as there are those who hold to the Calvinists/Reformists/Thomists doctrine, and others who hold to a doctrine of which Arminian/Wesleyan/Molinists teach, there will always be this critical division regarding the Gospel and the Faith of the Gospel. And there are other divisions as well, but those are the major divisions.

Therefore, to just say, "move on," is naive, because the division is not being resolved.
Yeah and from what I’ve seen in the discussion the scriptures are often taking a backseat to people’s doctrines. For example one person quotes verse A to support their position and another person quotes verse B that contradicts that person’s doctrine that is based on verse A. The problem is that the person who quoted verse A completely disregards verse B because it contradicts their doctrine. So instead of saying verse A =1 + verse B =1 then sound doctrine =2 which is the combination of verse A and B. Instead they say verse A =1 but verse B contradicts their doctrine so it = 0 so they conclude that verse A = 1 and verse B =0 which results in their doctrine not being a combination of verse A and B because their doctrine cancelled out verse B. That’s not how sound doctrines are formulated. Our doctrines have to be the result of taking into consideration all scripture, if it is contradictory to any scripture it is false. And so many people don’t care if it’s false or not. As long as there’s a scholar somewhere who teaches it they feel that it’s a viable option it doesn’t matter what the scriptures say as long as somebody else teaches it then they don’t have to admit when they’re wrong. If a person can’t admit when they’re wrong then they’re never going to learn anything from the scriptures. That’s precisely how we learn. We read the scriptures we formulate our doctrines and the more we study and the more we learn we begin to see errors in our doctrines that have to be reevaluated. If a person isn’t willing to reevaluate their doctrines when they are presented with scriptures that are contradictory to their doctrines then they’re just going to remain lost and unable to fully understand the word of God. They’ll always come across verses that don’t make sense to them so they either have to twist them out of context or skip over them because they can’t understand what they’re saying. I used to do that with John 15. I used to say to myself, man what is Jesus saying here because He can’t be saying what it looks like He’s saying because that would mean that people could lose their salvation. And it’s that mentality that keeps people from understanding what He’s saying. Once you let go of your doctrines and let the scriptures say what they say and accept it then you’ll start to formulate doctrines that are solid and you’ll stop coming across those passages that didn’t make any sense before.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,446
651
68
Greenfield
Visit site
✟479,939.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yeah and from what I’ve seen in the discussion the scriptures are often taking a backseat to people’s doctrines. For example one person quotes verse A to support their position and another person quotes verse B that contradicts that person’s doctrine that is based on verse A. The problem is that the person who quoted verse A completely disregards verse B because it contradicts their doctrine. So instead of saying verse A =1 + verse B =1 then sound doctrine =2 which is the combination of verse A and B. Instead they say verse A =1 but verse B contradicts their doctrine so it = 0 so they conclude that verse A = 1 and verse B =0 which results in their doctrine not being a combination of verse A and B because their doctrine cancelled out verse B. That’s not how sound doctrines are formulated. Our doctrines have to be the result of taking into consideration all scripture, if it is contradictory to any scripture it is false. And so many people don’t care if it’s false or not. As long as there’s a scholar somewhere who teaches it they feel that it’s a viable option it doesn’t matter what the scriptures say as long as somebody else teaches it then they don’t have to admit when they’re wrong. If a person can’t admit when they’re wrong then they’re never going to learn anything from the scriptures. That’s precisely how we learn. We read the scriptures we formulate our doctrines and the more we study and the more we learn we begin to see errors in our doctrines that have to be reevaluated. If a person isn’t willing to reevaluate their doctrines when they are presented with scriptures that are contradictory to their doctrines then they’re just going to remain lost and unable to fully understand the word of God.

Yes. And not only that, but verse A does not mean the same thing to either person or group, because "A" is being colored by their doctrinal position. The same goes for verse B, C, D, and so forth.

The Scriptures are, therefore, being manipulated, reinterpreted, taken out of context, and falsely applied, and in many other ways abused and used to support one's own opinions, traditions, and doctrines. So, you are right; in that, the Scriptures take a back seat for those persons who set up their own opinions and beliefs above the Word of God.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,698
7,638
North Carolina
✟359,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No not at all, I summed up exactly what your saying in those posts in the post you quoted when you wrote this reply.

Now correct me if I’m wrong here but are you not saying in posts 576 & 607 that the branches that are in Christ that don’t bear fruit are tares?
Okay. . .in terms of NT salvation, they are the same, in both cases they profess faith, but are not saved because their faith is counterfeit (Mt 7:22-23).
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,191
4,041
✟399,080.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes. And not only that, but verse A does not mean the same thing to either person or group, because "A" is being colored by their doctrinal position. The same goes for verse B, C, D, and so forth.

The Scriptures are, therefore, being manipulated, reinterpreted, taken out of context, and falsely applied, and in many other ways abused and used to support one's own opinions, traditions, and doctrines. So, you are right; in that, the Scriptures take a back seat for those persons who set up their own opinions and beliefs above the Word of God.
To be fair, there are often plausible interpretations of Scripture that simply disagree with other plausible interpretations of Scripture. It's not as if the "other side" is necessarily being disingenuous or desperately adhering to a preexisting doctrinal position that has no merit. Most people are quite sincere in their beliefs -and that makes it all the more frustrating for everyone involved. Everyone thinks they're right. I know that doesn't resolve the issue but maybe sheds a little light, FWIW. Equally educated and erudite theologians and biblical scholars can disagree with each other 180 degrees all day long-with both having reasonable arguments.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jo555

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2024
1,027
250
59
Daytona
✟32,821.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And oh, thou art so fashionable!

No, we're discussing Jn 15.
Lol! Thank you. Sometimes i forget to do my hair though and it can look pretty messy. My apologies.

I have been admiring your dress though. Haven't decided if you it will fit me yet as been distracted by other things and short on time, but you wear it well.

I'm a dreamer so, you know how that goes, symbolically speaking of course
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,446
651
68
Greenfield
Visit site
✟479,939.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To be fair, there are often plausible interpretations of Scripture that simply disagree with other plausible interpretations of Scripture. It's not as if the "other side" is necessarily being disingenuous or desperately adhering to a preexisting doctrinal position that has no merit. Most people are quite sincere in their beliefs -and that makes it all the more frustrating for everyone involved. I know that doesn't resolve the issue but maybe sheds a little light. Equally educated and erudite theologians and biblical scholars can disagree with each other 180 degrees all day long-with both having reasonable arguments.

I agree, and did not state, the persons are deliberately manipulating, reinterpreting, abusing, and mis-using the Scriptures to support their own opinions, assumptions, and beliefs; however, I would not deny that this happens. I think others really believe what they are saying is true; and so, deceiving themselves.

Regarding the interpretation of Scriptures, yes, people can have what appears to be "plausible" interpretations. However, I don't believe God is senile, do you? If a "plausible explanation" supports a doctrine that is opposite another doctrine, well then, no matter how "plausible" it must be held suspect until "the context" [local and broader context] and "grammar" are together verified and studied. And this is not difficult to do if one is objective.

I believe the NT Scriptures were authored by God to make plain to understand the Gospel revelation so as to give complete understanding what was, in past times, a mystery.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s {{{holy apostles and prophets}}}. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-27 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you [in what he is now writing to them about in this Epistle] the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 2:1-4 (NIV) 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Ephesians 3:8-11 (NIV) 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God [which is the Gospel Revelation that God commanded to be put into writing: Romans 16:25-27] should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 1:10-16 (NIV) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV) 13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Jo555

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2024
1,027
250
59
Daytona
✟32,821.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Unfortunately, as long as there are those who hold to the Calvinists/Reformists/Thomists doctrine, and others who hold to a doctrine of which Arminian/Wesleyan/Molinists teach, there will always be this critical division regarding the Gospel and the Faith of the Gospel, and all the Passages relating to that. And there are other divisions as well, but those are the major divisions.

Therefore, to just say, "move on," is naive, because the division is not being resolved.
And we are not going to resolve it by beating it into each other ....

Not that i would know anything about that ...

Someone hide the liquor before we all get arrested for drinking and driving.

Sorry, just having some fun at all our expense.

You can charge me. Send me the bill. The check is in the mail.
Shoot, i have to give up drinking because jail is no fun. The food stinks.

Shall i go? ❤️

Going to go fix my hair now...i love you guys, and gals. I would have thrown me out a long time ago...but look at you all, still being patient and kind with me. Good fruit, but i get it if you want to boot me out.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,446
651
68
Greenfield
Visit site
✟479,939.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And we are not going to resolve it by beating it into each other ....

Not that i would know anything about that ...

Someone hide the liquor before we all get arrested for drinking and driving.

Sorry, just having some fun at all our expense.

You can charge me. Send me the bill. The check is in the mail.
Shoot, i have to give up drinking because jail is no fun. The food stinks.

Shall i go? ❤️

Going to go fix my hair now...i love you guys, and gals. I would have thrown me out a long time ago...but look at you all, still being patient and kind with me. Good fruit, but i get it if you want to boot me out.

Not many of us desire to beat it into each other, but when disagreements do occur, and Scriptures are used, there is going to be debate over it. If not, then that means we are not caring enough to help someone else to understand what you believe to be accurate. We should not fear sincere discussion over issues we disagree with that involve our salvation. That is my view.

Blessings
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,777
787
✟167,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Nonsense. This thread is about theological truth, regardless of where it comes from, not denominational preference.
This thread is about SALVATION... including the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit as an indication of one's regenerative rebirth (Titus 3:5). Some denominational churches don't believe that the 9 Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active (necessary) for furthering the kingdom of God (and Salvation) and therefore no longer theological truth for today's church.

Yet we have no reason not to believe that these 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit are "theological truth" for today, that is, LESS some churches teach that these 9 Gifts have ceased and no longer needed. These Gifts are still useful in furthering the Kingdom of God by bringing SALVATION to others ... thanks to God empowering His church with these 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 4-11) ... theological truth ... glorifying our Lord and Saviour today as in the 1st century.

You say theological truth "regardless of where it comes from." Therefore you are not opposed to born again (Titus3:5) Christians that have one or more of the 9 Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 12) for doing "good works" (Ephesians 2:10) that manifest His Glory, Grace, Power and Love.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,191
4,041
✟399,080.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
This thread is about SALVATION... including the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit as an indication of one's regenerative rebirth (Titus 3:5). Some denominational churches don't believe that the 9 Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active (necessary) for furthering the kingdom of God (and Salvation) and therefore no longer theological truth for today's church.

Yet we have no reason not to believe that these 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit are "theological truth" for today (that is) LESS some churches teach that these 9 Gifts have ceased and no longer needed. These Gifts are still useful in furthering the Kingdom of God by bringing SALVATION to others ... thanks to God empowering His church with these 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 4-11) ... theological truth ... glorifying our Lord and Saviour today as in the 1st century.

You say theological truth "regardless of where it comes from." Therefore you are not opposed to born again (Titus3:5) Christians that have one or more of the 9 Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 12) for doing "good works" (Ephesians 2:10) that manifest His Glory, Grace, Love.
I don't know why you've brought up any of this up in response to my posts, but in any case, no, I have no problem with any church or denomination or individual who's doing Gods will to to the best of their ability.
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,777
787
✟167,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't know why you've brought up any of this up in response to my posts, but in any case, no, I have no problem with any church or denomination or individual who's doing Gods will to to the best of their ability.
It's not due to their ability, but rather God's Ability in them with them in Him.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,191
4,041
✟399,080.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's not due to their ability, but rather God's Ability in them with them in Him.
It's the ability given to them as they enter and remain in communion with Him, which is the only way man can do anything: "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).They don't become puppets or robots, IOW, meaning they can still refuse to obey. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on all this, on man's role.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,386
Dallas
✟1,095,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Okay. . .in terms of NT salvation, they are the same, in both cases they profess faith, but are not saved because their faith is counterfeit (Mt 7:22-23).
Can’t be joined to Christ with a counterfeit faith.
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,777
787
✟167,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
It's not due to their ability, but rather God's Ability in them with them in Him.
We agree we are referring to the 9 (Special) Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and that we believe these Special Gifts are still in operation in His Church today as they were in His 1st century Church (chosen ones). His Church (Ekklesia is a Greek word defined as “a called-out assembly or congregation.”
It's the ability given to them as they enter and remain in communion with Him, which is the only way man can do anything: "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).They don't become puppets or robots, IOW, meaning they can still refuse to obey. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on all this, on man's role.
We are not talking about man's role, but rather those chosen that receive a Special Gift(s) by means of the Holy Spirit as He wills. Special Gifts as: Wisdom, Healings, Miracles, Words of Knowledge, Discerning of spirits (deliveance) and the other 4 Gifts as God determines

He saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,866
8,386
Dallas
✟1,095,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
See post #618.
Which puts us right back at you claiming that false professors are joined to Christ by satan. We can go back & forth on this all day, I’m game. Meanwhile it’s providing evidence about what you teach for others to take into consideration.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,698
7,638
North Carolina
✟359,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Which puts us right back at you claiming that false professors are joined to Christ by satan. We can go back & forth on this all day, I’m game. Meanwhile it’s providing evidence about what you teach for others to take into consideration.
Which puts you right back at not correctly understanding the parables, as explained in posts #576, #607?
 
Upvote 0