SALVATION

[Clare73]

But Jesus was specifically speaking to believers in John 15. There was no one present in the upper room with them except Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles. So according to your theology that consequence given in John 15:6 is an impossibility for them which makes it a useless statement. If God is controlling their will then consequences for believers is completely useless.

Where is it written that when the apostles only are present, Jesus' teaching applies to the apostles only?
Mt 10:32-39, Mk 9; 42-49, Lk 11:1-13, Jn 14-17.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The fail to bear fruit because they are dead. . .not born again. . .and will be cut-off from the vine (professing church, wherein are gathered the believers and also some unbelievers).

They’re IN CHRIST. No one who is IN CHRIST IS DEAD.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nope. . .not in the natural order and not in the spiritual order.

When did Jesus ever speak a parable or give an example from nature that was not true to nature.

If the point is not true in the example, that means it is not true in reality, and then Jesus would be misrepresenting spiritual reality.

Wrong, because He specifically said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him and no one does that from birth. I already explained this. If someone is not hearing His voice and following His teachings then they’re NOT one of His sheep.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where is it written that when the apostles only are present, Jesus' teaching applies to the apostles only?
Mt 10:32-39, Mk 9; 42-49, Lk 11:1-13, Jn 14-17.

He specifically used the word YOU OVER AND OVER AND OVER INDICATING THAT THE MESSAGE APPLIED TO THE 11 APOSTLES. I never said it doesn’t apply to everyone I said it applied to them. Verse 6 included the 11 apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you are not prosecuting the parables in the light of all the NT.

Agreed, as explained in post #528.

But you’re not agreeing because you’re saying that the Vine represents the church not Christ.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Vine is Jesus Christ, not the church. Everyone who remains in Christ will be saved, not everyone who remains in the church will be saved. You’re trying to dismiss the evidence in the parable of the Vine by implying that the branches that are cut off are represented as tares in the parable of the wheat and tares but they’re not because the branches of the Vine have the ability to abide in Christ and the ability to bear fruit because they are joined to Christ. Tares do not have either of these abilities because they were planted by the enemy not by The Father. The branches are joined to Christ BY THE FATHER because He is the Vinedresser. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them so branches cannot be joined to Christ by the enemy. So you are NOT agreeing, you’re ignoring the details of the parables that set them apart.

 

[AbbaLove]

They’re IN CHRIST. No one who is IN CHRIST IS DEAD.

See John 15:6 as a Warning from Jesus. Perhaps Jesus is referring to Judas Iscariot and other followers that for whatever reason(s) do not stay the course by remaining in Him.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken off] branch, and withers and dies; and they gather such branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)​

Does this imply that not everyone that is "chosen" will finish the race and win the prize? Was Judas an exception being knowingly "chosen" by God as an example that not all "chosen" will stay the course serving their own interests as much or more deceiving themself thinking they are also somehow, someway serving the best interests of the Lord?

Were not both Adam and Eve "chosen" of God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, in the parables, the field, the kingdom, the vine are the kingdom, wherein are both sheep (abiding branches, wheat) and goats (severed branches, tares).

The Vine is Christ not the kingdom. The tares don’t get removed from the kingdom until judgement day, the branches get cut off from Christ before judgement day for not bearing fruit. Verse 1 makes it absolutely crystal clear beyond any shadow of a doubt who the Vine is.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

See John 15:6 as a Warning from Jesus. Perhaps Jesus is referring to Judas Iscariot and other followers that for whatever reason(s) do not stay the course by remaining in Him.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken off] branch, and withers and dies; and they gather such branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)​

Does this imply that not everyone that is "chosen" will finish the race and win the prize? Was Judas an exception being knowingly "chosen" by God as an example that not all "chosen" will stay the course serving their own interests as much or more deceiving themself thinking they are also somehow, someway serving the best interests of the Lord?

Were not both Adam and Eve "chosen" of God?

Judas had already left the room and the only people who were present were the 11 faithful apostles and Jesus is using the word YOU over and over and over in the message indicating that the message was specifically directed to the 11 apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

See John 15:6 as a Warning from Jesus. Perhaps Jesus is referring to Judas Iscariot and other followers that for whatever reason(s) do not stay the course by remaining in Him.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken off] branch, and withers and dies; and they gather such branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)​

Does this imply that not everyone that is "chosen" will finish the race and win the prize? Was Judas an exception being knowingly "chosen" by God as an example that not all "chosen" will stay the course serving their own interests as much or more deceiving themself thinking they are also somehow, someway serving the best interests of the Lord?

Were not both Adam and Eve "chosen" of God?

In 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul wrote this to Timothy.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul made it clear that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ which would result in Christ denying them.

In James 5:19-20 James wrote this.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here James says that if one of the brethren strays from the truth their soul is in danger of death but if another brother turns him BACK then that brother will have saved his soul from death. This indicates that the one who strayed was saved before he turned away. Then after he turned away he was in danger of condemnation but IF he repents he can be saved but James makes it clear that they are not certain to repent. That’s why he didn’t say when one of the brethren turns him back, he said if they turn him back. Furthermore if the one who strayed was destined to turn back then his soul was never actually in danger of death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

See John 15:6 as a Warning from Jesus. Perhaps Jesus is referring to Judas Iscariot and other followers that for whatever reason(s) do not stay the course by remaining in Him.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken off] branch, and withers and dies; and they gather such branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)​

Does this imply that not everyone that is "chosen" will finish the race and win the prize? Was Judas an exception being knowingly "chosen" by God as an example that not all "chosen" will stay the course serving their own interests as much or more deceiving themself thinking they are also somehow, someway serving the best interests of the Lord?

Were not both Adam and Eve "chosen" of God?

I don’t understand your last two questions can you please rephrase them?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does this imply that not everyone that is "chosen" will finish the race and win the prize?

I wouldn’t say that everyone who is joined to Christ is chosen, they are called and drawn but those who are chosen are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge and their names were written in the book of life before creation which will not be edited.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My questions were to get a better understanding of your understanding of Reformed Calvinist theology.

FWIW I don't consider myself a Calvinist, nor Reformed, but am consistently mistaken for one, because they believe pretty much what I believe. I'm a Monergist, forth and firstmost, er, forced and firthmothed, er, uh...

Are there not differences in Reformed theologies depending on the denomination that refers to its Calvinism as either "Reform" or "Reformed."

Of course. In fact, I don't find any Reformed that believe exactly as another.

When it comes to ones "free will" that again depends on ones Christian theology or philosophy ...

"A compatibilist interpretation of Aquinas's view is defended thus: "Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act. But it does not of necessity belong to liberty that what is free should be the first cause of itself, as neither for one thing to be cause of another need it be the first cause. God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature. "​

How is "free will" defined by Reformed theology when it comes to the disobedience of Adam and Eve? Was it their own "free will" that they chose to disobey God from a Reformed theology perspective of "free will" ?

The term, "free" is treated in many different ways by the Reformed, but generally, at most, it implies only the liberty to act according to one's own preferences.

"Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith through the doctrine of Total depravity."​

I don't follow that statement. Best I can figure, you mean, the doctrine of Total depravity implies many things that require that regeneration is a cause of faith, and not the other way around.

If that is what you mean, you would be correct, though there are less awkward ways to put it.

Is that the position of Reformed Calvinsim that faith does not precede regeneration rather faith follows regeneration? Aren't both "born again" and "regeneration" the same?

Causally (not necessarily temporally) regeneration precedes faith. To be more precise, the same thing that causes regeneration —the Spirit of God "taking up residence" in the human, is also what generates the faith. A temporal sequence is not necessary. However, that is my view, and not necessarily that of most Calvinists nor the Reformed.

So Reformed Calvinist theology believes Abraham choice as well as his obedience was only possible first by regeneration followed by FAITH.

There's quite a bit the Bible doesn't make plain about Abraham. Shoes off !

How does Reformed Calvinism differ from [traditional] Calvinism?​

From what I have seen, the biggest usual difference is the sense of family and authority of the father, in the Reformed, and a tendency toward Covenant Theology.

The Calvinists seem to me a more widely varied bunch, of all sorts of flavors and vehemences along a scale of Gospel Warfare. Both can be Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and even Charismatics. Both are, at least it seems to me that those who have studied are, so overwhelmed with God's mercy, and the admiration of God All-wise and Almighty, that any notion intimating that God is less than sovereign is met with shock and antagonism.

 

[Sel@h]

I wouldn’t say that everyone who is joined to Christ is chosen, they are called and drawn but those who are chosen are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge and their names were written in the book of life before creation which will not be edited.

I agree. These are the chosen:

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

- 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)

—Selah

 

[David Lamb]

I wouldn’t say that everyone who is joined to Christ is chosen, they are called and drawn but those who are chosen are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge and their names were written in the book of life before creation which will not be edited.

Well, to the Christians, those joined to Christ, in Colossae, Paul wrote:

“Therefore, as [the] elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;” (Col 3:12 NKJV)

Peter begins his first letter to Christians:

“1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

The bible doesn't present us with two classes of Christians, the elect and the non-elect.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, to the Christians, those joined to Christ, in Colossae, Paul wrote:

“Therefore, as [the] elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;” (Col 3:12 NKJV)

Peter begins his first letter to Christians:

“1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

The bible doesn't present us with two classes of Christians, the elect and the non-elect.

I agree with that statement, there are Christians and there are people who are not Christians who pretend to be but not all Christians endure to the end.

 

[David Lamb]

I agree with that statement, there are Christians and there are people who are not Christians who pretend to be but not all Christians endure to the end.

I don't agree that not all Christians will endure to the end. Jesus said that all who the Father gives Him will come to Him and the one who comes to Him will in no way be cast out. Paul wrote to the Christians in Philippi:

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6 NKJV)

That could not be true if Christians did not persevere.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't agree that not all Christians will endure to the end. Jesus said that all who the Father gives Him will come to Him and the one who comes to Him will in no way be cast out. Paul wrote to the Christians in Philippi:

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6 NKJV)

That could not be true if Christians did not persevere.

There’s an explanation for both of these passages.

In John 6:37 the Greek word erchomai translated to “comes or cometh” is only used in the present or imperfect tense. This means that only those who are presently or continuously coming to Him, He will not cast out.

In Philippians 1:6 Paul says he is confident that God will complete in them the work He began, it is not a definite statement. He didn’t say God will complete the work, he adds the term “I am confident” which means he believes that it will happen, not that it is destined to happen. What about the verses I quoted in post 549? What are your thoughts on those verses?

 

[David Lamb]

There’s an explanation for both of these passages.

In John 6:37 the Greek word erchomai translated to “comes or cometh” is only used in the present or imperfect tense. This means that only those who are presently or continuously coming to Him, He will not cast out.

In Philippians 1:6 Paul says he is confident that God will complete in them the work He began, it is not a definite statement. He didn’t say God will complete the work, he adds the term “I am confident” which means he believes that it will happen, not that it is destined to happen. What about the verses I quoted in post 549? What are your thoughts on those verses?

Thanks for the reply. So you think Paul's confidence was in the staying power of the Philippian Christians? Surely not - he rather says that he is confident that God will complete the work.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks for the reply. So you think Paul's confidence was in the staying power of the Philippian Christians? Surely not - he rather says that he is confident that God will complete the work.

Our perseverance is the result of a synergetic cooperation with God, it’s not the result of God working against our will. If our perseverance was that result of God working against our will then John 15:1-7 would be a useless message as well as the verses I quoted in post 459. Paul wrote to the Galatians in Galatians 3:1-4 he makes it clear that they had received the Holy Spirit, yet in Galatians 5:4 he says that they had been severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. If God is the only One who is responsible for our perseverance, then how would the Galatians have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace? They received the Holy Spirit which means that we have to rule out the possibility that they were never true believers. Paul even made it clear that even he and Timothy could apostatize in 2 Timothy 2:12. Jesus made it clear that His 11 faithful apostles could apostatize in John 15:1-7. There’s abundant evidence that true believers can fall away in the scriptures.

 

[Jo555]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

The scriptures are clear we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. A change in lifestyle and good works are a result of that.

There are times we may still sin, but the blood of Jesus has us covered.

There are still issues we may still have to deal with, like soul attachments that need to be broken, but that doesn't mean we won't be saved.

If someone repeatedly continues to live a lifestyle of sin without Godly sorrow, i would wonder if they ever truly believed and received God's free gift of salvation bought by the blood of Jesus.