VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have to wonder about your ability to read words and comprehend facts.
The angel said: Come up here.......

Whether John went to heaven or not, is irrelevant and in no way supports the false idea of the Church being raptured to heaven.

Rev 4:1 does not say John went through the door. It never says he went to Heaven. It was ALL a vision, while "in the spirit," on Patmos.

 

[JulieB67]

such as the parable of Matt 25, and pre trib saying believers won't be around so it's not applicable, that's a bit of dilemma for the position(s).

So the question is, why do you bypass all the bad Words to the churches therein?

Very good points.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Covered this prior but will repeat:

Jesus looked at Peter and rebuked Satan. Both parties were standing there, in PETER's shoes.

One saved.
The other, damned.

This is a fairly certain and fairly simple principle. Jesus showed us this fact of Satanic presence on nearly every page of the Gospels.

Was Peter spared from tribulations, temptations, deceptions? No to all of those questions.

But ultimately it was because of the other party, Satan acting in Peter, just as it happens withIN all of us with evil present's thoughts via the tempter.

And we might even be spared from the hour trial if we TELL THE TRUTH of the above, rather than lie about being sinners and our own sin being "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Satan in people can't tell the truth, particularly in believers

In Rev 3:10, the "hour of trial" is a reference to the 7-year Trib. Jesus promised that we will be kept from the Trib. We will be raptured straight to Heaven in Rev 4:1.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have to wonder about your ability to read words and comprehend facts.
The angel said: Come up here.......

Whether John went to heaven or not, is irrelevant and in no way supports the false idea of the Church being raptured to heaven.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, to Heaven. It totally aligns with Jesus' promise in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial."

 

[keras]

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, to Heaven. It totally aligns with Jesus' promise in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial."

Just your faulty opinion.
Please tell us why the God you believe in will change His mind and remove you from the earth before any troubles. What is your special attribute which qualifies you to be taken to heaven before any trials and testing?

Christians have been persecuted over this age and will continue to be martyred until Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4.

 

[Oseas]

I'd call that claim instant illegitimacy of credibility for understanding eschatology

The ever rotating guesswork of "this guy is the antiChrist" or, in the above case, "the red horse rider"

Why anyone needs other bad guys besides the most blatantly obvious bad actor, Satan, will always remain suspect claims

It is up to the believing followers of JESUS to identify who the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are, the rider of the white horse is Michael(Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16) , and the rider of the red horse in my view is Trump, but who is the rider of the black horse? And the pale horse, whose name of the rider is called Death, and Hell follow with him? Is not he the MAN of sin, son of perdition, who will manifest himself as the messiah of the Jews (John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-18) even now, in the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9-12? As is written, Power will be given UNTO THEM over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the ruthless beasts of the earth?

The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 13:11), and out of the mouth of the Beast (Beast of sea-Revelation 13:1-9), and out of the mouth of the False Prophet(John 5:43-47).

14 For they are the spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of GOD Almighty.

ATTENTION!
15 Behold, I come as a thief.

Be careful or else Get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

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[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

No. The man-made system called dispensationalism teaches a pretrib rapture, but Holy scripture does not.

 

[Oseas]

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON​

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

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[Jeffrey Bowden]

Just your faulty opinion.
Please tell us why the God you believe in will change His mind and remove you from the earth before any troubles. What is your special attribute which qualifies you to be taken to heaven before any trials and testing?

Christians have been persecuted over this age and will continue to be martyred until Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4.

Rev 3:10 proves we will not enter the Trib. Jesus makes this very plain: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." Your "firey trial" is only about the day-to-day challenges of spreading the gospels.

Your claim of testing is only related to our day-to-day lives (1 Peter 4:12-17). The only folks tested in the Trib are would-be martyrs. They MUST align with Rev 12:17 (ESV): Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Rev 20:4 (ESV): ... Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus ...

You failed to invalidate that Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[Oseas]

Rev 3:10 proves we will not enter the Trib. Jesus makes this very plain: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." Your "firey wrath" is only about the day-to-day challenges of spreading the gospels.

Your claim of testing is only related to our day-to-day lives (1 Peter 4:12-17). The only folks tested in the Trib are would-be martyrs. They MUST align with Rev 12:17 (ESV): Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Rev 20:4 (ESV): ... Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus ...

You failed to invalidate that Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

GOD is in control of history, nothing random happens. What I know is that the four riders of Apocalypse, one of GOD and three of the Devil, they are already running /walking with their powers that reflect in whole world.
It is up to the believing followers of JESUS to identify who the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are,
the rider of the white horse is Michael(Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16),
and the rider of the red horse in my view is Trump,
but who is the rider of the black horse?
And the pale horse, whose NAME of the rider is called Death, and Hell follow with him? Is not he the MAN of sin, son of perdition, who will manifest himself very soon as the messiah of the Jews (John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-18) even now, in the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9-12, as soon as be elected the next and last Pope?
As is written, Power will be given UNTO THEM over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the ruthless beasts of the earth?

The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 13:11), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast (Beast of sea-Revelation 13:1-9, the Papacy), and out of the MOUTH of the False Prophet(John 5:43-47).
14 For they are the SPIRITS OF DEMONS, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of GOD Almighty.

ATTENTION!
15 Behold, I come as a thief.

Be careful or else Get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

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[keras]

Your "firey trial" is only about the day-to-day challenges of spreading the gospels.

1 Peter 4:12 refutes you.

You failed to invalidate that Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Your adding to the plain Words of scripture, is a crime against God. Expect to be punished accordingly.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

A dear friend of mine offered this verse. He truly is a Bible scholar, with in-depth familiarity with several books of the Bible. He's one I've learned a bunch from. He says that Matt 24:31 is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:4 (NIV): Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.

Needless to say, that is still not a rapture. They are brought back to Israel, their homeland, under the loving care of the true Messiah. It still looks most probable that they are next found in Matt 25:34-40.

The above kind of teaching stems from the theological school of thought that the O.T. Words of God were only for the ancients of Israel.

That's not what Jesus advised us all. See Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, and Deut 8:3 for instant references that all of God's Words are for everyone.

IF for example you realized that the law is against lawless sinners, it is, 1 Tim 1:9, and that the devil(s) are lawless sinners you might also recognize that is a good thing. A great thing, really.

Where things get dicey for all of us is when we realize the tempter tempts us all between our own two ears, and that God is against our enemy, thereIN. The notion that God only and always loves the entire package of us is an everyday lie when the tempter is inserted into the picture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It is up to the believing followers of JESUS to identify who the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are, the rider of the white horse is Michael(Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16) , and the rider of the red horse in my view is Trump, but who is the rider of the black horse? And the pale horse, whose name of the rider is called Death, and Hell follow with him? Is not he the MAN of sin, son of perdition, who will manifest himself as the messiah of the Jews (John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-18) even now, in the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9-12? As is written, Power will be given UNTO THEM over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the ruthless beasts of the earth?

The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 13:11), and out of the mouth of the Beast (Beast of sea-Revelation 13:1-9), and out of the mouth of the False Prophet(John 5:43-47).

14 For they are the spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of GOD Almighty.

ATTENTION!
15 Behold, I come as a thief.

Be careful or else Get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

purebibleforum.com

You maybe need to learn the basic difference between people and devils and then revamp your thinking or at least stop trying to play it both ways.

You're no better than Trump in any case. Or any sinner for that matter. Neither am I. Romans 3:9

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Peter 4:12 refutes you.

Your adding to the plain Words of scripture, is a crime against God. Expect to be punished accordingly.

1 Peter 4 cannot be proven to apply to the Trib. Therefore, it’s only about the daily trials and tribulations of spreading the Gospel.

Apostle John cannot be proven to have ever left Patmos during his vision. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is only about a future event: the pre-Trib rapture of the Church to Heaven. Jesus even promised in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That means we believers will not even be on Earth upon the start of the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The above kind of teaching stems from the theological school of thought that the O.T. Words of God were only for the ancients of Israel.

That's not what Jesus advised us all. See Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, and Deut 8:3 for instant references that all of God's Words are for everyone.

IF for example you realized that the law is against lawless sinners, it is, 1 Tim 1:9, and that the devil(s) are lawless sinners you might also recognize that is a good thing. A great thing, really.

Where things get dicey for all of us is when we realize the tempter tempts us all between our own two ears, and that God is against our enemy, thereIN. The notion that God only and always loves the entire package of us is an everyday lie when the tempter is inserted into the picture.

You’re making much more of this than is necessary. There are verses that fulfill earlier verses.

 

[Oseas]

1 Peter 4 cannot be proven to apply to the Trib. Therefore, it’s only about the daily trials and tribulations of spreading the Gospel.

Apostle John cannot be proven to have ever left Patmos during his vision. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is only about a future event: the pre-Trib rapture of the Church to Heaven. Jesus even promised in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That means we believers will not even be on Earth upon the start of the Trib.

Multitudes are caughted to the heavens which will be in fire in this Day of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, where the fire is not quenched, understand? the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not GOD, and that obey not the His gospel of GOD's Kingdom, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;when He shall come to be glorified in His saints (1Corinthians 6:2-3), and to be admired in all them that believe in this Day of the righteous Judgment of GOD, the seventh and last Day(this Day arrived), and the fire never quenched, understand? GOD is a devouring fire.

Be careful or else get ready

--> For there to be fire,three components are necessary for: Oxigen(Air), and Heat, and Fuel.

-->For there to be fire in HEAVEN, three components are necessary for, and they are:
1 - the bodies of the wicked men (Daniel 12:9-10);
2 - the Word of GOD - the breath (Oxigen) of life (Genesis 2:7)
3 - Heat - GOD is a devouring fire (Hebrews 12:29 & 10:27 combined with Malachi 4:1-3, and Eclles.3:17, among other biblical references)

Get ready

The Word of GOD warned: Acts 17:30-31:
30 And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a Day(this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day), in the which He will Judge the world in righteousness (Revelation 11:15-18) by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

Get ready

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

The Jewish calendar is the type of calendar that the Jewish people use for counting time and commemorating birthdays, festivities, weddings, deaths, religious celebrations and other solemnities. According to the Hebrews, the years are counted from what they believe to be the creation of Adam...

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[Oseas]

You maybe need to learn the basic difference between people and devils and then revamp your thinking or at least stop trying to play it both ways.

You're no better than Trump in any case. Or any sinner for that matter. Neither am I. Romans 3:9

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Peter 4:12 refutes you.

Your adding to the plain Words of scripture, is a crime against God. Expect to be punished accordingly.

This the heading over 1 Peter 4:1-11 (ESV):

Stewards of God's Grace​

4 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. 8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Show hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


This is the heading over 1 Peter 4:12-19 (ESV):

Suffering as a Christian​

12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And

“If the righteous is scarcely saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

All the verses in 1 Peter 4 have NOTHING to do with the Trib.

 

[keras]

All the verses in 1 Peter 4 have NOTHING to do with the Trib.

Peter refers to the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that all will experience: 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

Nahum 1:3-6 The Lord will not let the guilty go unpunished, His way is by the whirlwind and the storm, the earth and all who live in it are in tumult at His presence. His rage is poured out like fire and the land quakes before Him.

Habakkuk 3:3-15 The Lord comes from Sinai, His splendid radiance covers the sky, but He is veiled from sight. In His fury, He traverses the earth, trampling down the nations.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast. It will be a Day of wrath, destruction and death, a Day of darkness, loud noise and by His fire the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

Zechariah 9:14 The Lord will make Himself known over His people and His arrows will flash forth like lightning. He will sound the battle trumpet and advance with the storm winds of the South.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the arrogant and all evildoers will be as stubble, the Day will set them ablaze, leaving them neither root nor branch.

2 Esdras 15:23 The Lord’s anger has burst out in flames, scorching the earth to its foundations and consuming sinners like burning straw.

Luke 3:17 .....the chaff He will burn on a fire that can never be put out.

Hebrews 10:27 There is only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies.

2 Peter 3:7 & 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. On that Day the sky will dissolve with a great rushing sound and the earth will be enveloped in flames, bringing all in it to judgement.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Peter refers to the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that all will experience: 2 Peter 3:7 & 10

Nahum 1:3-6 The Lord will not let the guilty go unpunished, His way is by the whirlwind and the storm, the earth and all who live in it are in tumult at His presence. His rage is poured out like fire and the land quakes before Him.

Habakkuk 3:3-15 The Lord comes from Sinai, His splendid radiance covers the sky, but He is veiled from sight. In His fury, He traverses the earth, trampling down the nations.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast. It will be a Day of wrath, destruction and death, a Day of darkness, loud noise and by His fire the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

Zechariah 9:14 The Lord will make Himself known over His people and His arrows will flash forth like lightning. He will sound the battle trumpet and advance with the storm winds of the South.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the arrogant and all evildoers will be as stubble, the Day will set them ablaze, leaving them neither root nor branch.

2 Esdras 15:23 The Lord’s anger has burst out in flames, scorching the earth to its foundations and consuming sinners like burning straw.

Luke 3:17 ... the chaff He will burn on a fire that can never be put out.

Hebrews 10:27 There is only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies.

2 Peter 3:7 & 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. On that Day the sky will dissolve with a great rushing sound and the earth will be enveloped in flames, bringing all in it to judgement.

The claim of wrath in the 6th seal is made by unbelievers. How credible are they?

2 Peter 3:7 (NIV): By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. ----- If verse 7 is about the Trib, it's all about unbelievers. That's only fitting, because it is a provable fact that no believers enter the Trib (Rev 3:10). Also 2 Peter 3:10

Nahum 1:3 (NIV):
The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet. ----- "The guilty" are unbelievers. How do I know that? They are punished. We believers are forgiven.

You don't include the Bible version you use for the verses you cite. So, I have to assume that "He is veiled from sight" is in a verse. If so, that can't be related to the 6th seal because everyone there is an unbeliever and they collectively claim they see Jesus.

Zephaniah 1:17 (NIV):
“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.

----- If Zephaniah 1:17 pertains to the Trib, it's about those who have sinned against the Lord; not believers because our sins are forgiven, and no believers enter the Trib (2 Peter 3:7).

Zechariah 9:14 mentions a battle trumpet. Where is that in the 6th seal? Another out-of-context verse.

Malachi 4:1 mentions all the arrogant and all evildoers. Whatever it pertains to, it's all about unbelievers.

2 Esdras 15:23 mentions sinners. C'mon. Are you mixing us in with unrepentant sinners? And, yes, if they are unrepentant sinners being "consumed like burning straw."

Luke 3:17, if in reference to the Trib, is DQ'd as applying to believers.

Hebrews 10:27 mentions "God’s enemies." Would that be us?