VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There’s no rapture in Matt 24:31.

I don't doubt at all that Matt 24 and 25 and every parable for that matter speak to these matters in various ways, none of which indicate a pretrib rapture. Though I did buy into the story myself for many years prior to studying it out. It sounded good on the surface but doesn't hold scriptural water upon examinations

Perhaps it would be clearER if we saw that the great tribulation and Rev in general speak to the end of the devil and his messengers, with people still remaining after the fact, not raptured

When these various theories eliminate God's Words from being applicable to us as Jesus told us in Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut 8:3 for examples, such as the parable of Matt 25, and pre trib saying believers won't be around so it's not applicable, that's a bit of dilemma for the position(s).

 

[Oseas]

3/ Is the Sixth Seal actually the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

3/ The Sixth Seal matches quite closely the many prophecies of the worldwide Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, found throughout the OT and the NT. This event simply does not match the 3 clear descriptions of the Return of Jesus and what happens then. Zechariah 14:4-9, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21

As for thinking that because it is the people who say; ‘Fall on us, for the Day of wrath has come’, then it isn’t a true statement, this is totally unbelievable because they haven’t said it yet and it is actually a prophecy of Jesus, as given to John.

4/ Prophecy should be understood literally, unless there is an obvious allegory and then it is most often explained literally in other passages. With hindsight and modern scientific knowledge, it is now possible to know what will happen and right now the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-8 and Micah 4:11-12 is staring us in the face.

The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.

The Powers of this evil age.

What I know is that the four riders of Apocalypse , one of GOD and three of the Devil, they are already running /walking with their powers that reflects in whole world, for example, Trump is the most publicized person in the entire world today, and is not he the Rider of the Red Horse? Revelation 6:3-4
3 - And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, Come. 4 And another horse came forth, a red horse: and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great Sword. (devilish /evil Sword, to take peace from the earth)

Ezekiel 7:5-16, among many other biblical references:
5 Thus saith the Lord: An evil, an only evil; behold, it cometh. 6 An END is come, the END is come; it awaketh against thee; behold, it cometh. 7 Thy doom is come unto thee, O inhabitant of the land: the time is come, the Day is near(the Lord's Day), a Day of tumult, and not of joyful shouting...8 Now will I shortly pour out my wrath upon thee, and accomplish mine anger against thee, and will Judge thee according to thy ways; and I will bring upon thee all thine abominations. 9 And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will bring upon thee according to thy ways; and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I, the Lord, do smite.

10 Behold, the Day, behold, it cometh...pride hath budded. 11 Violence is risen up into a rod of wickedness; none of them shall remain, nor of their multitude, nor of their wealth: neither shall there be eminency among them. 12 The time is come, the day draweth near: let not the buyer rejoice, nor the seller mourn; for wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is speculative rubbish, as there simply isn't time for a large number to convert, especially knowing they will be persecuted and likely get their heads chopped off.
No; there will be very few, if any converts during the 42 month period of world control by the beast. Rev 13:5-7
There is no support for a rapture to heaven of the Church before the Great Trib, or anywhere in the Bible.

This is speculative rubbish, as there simply isn't time for a large number to convert, especially knowing they will be persecuted and likely get their heads chopped off.
No; there will be very few, if any converts during the 42 month period of world control by the beast. Rev 13:5-7
There is no support for a rapture to heaven of the Church before the Great Trib, or anywhere in the Bible.

Rev 4:1 is a future event. Apostle John never left Patmos during his vision. Rev 4:1 will rapture the Church straight
to Heaven, before the Trib.

The GM will, at least, come from seals 2 and 4 and Satan’s slaughter in the GT. Those martyrs will number in the millions if not the hundreds of millions. Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is speculative rubbish, as there simply isn't time for a large number to convert, especially knowing they will be persecuted and likely get their heads chopped off.
No; there will be very few, if any converts during the 42 month period of world control by the beast. Rev 13:5-7
There is no support for a rapture to heaven of the Church before the Great Trib, or anywhere in the Bible.

I don't doubt at all that Matt 24 and 25 and every parable for that matter speak to these matters in various ways, none of which indicate a pretrib rapture. Though I did buy into the story myself for many years prior to studying it out. It sounded good on the surface but doesn't hold scriptural water upon examinations

Perhaps it would be clearER if we saw that the great tribulation and Rev in general speak to the end of the devil and his messengers, with people still remaining after the fact, not raptured

When these various theories eliminate God's Words from being applicable to us as Jesus told us in Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut 8:3 for examples, such as the parable of Matt 25, and pre trib saying believers won't be around so it's not applicable, that's a bit of dilemma for the position(s).

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 (ESV)?

“I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

Here’s 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Most Christians can’t define what God’s wrath is. Ezekiel 14:21 defines the worst of all of God’s wrath. Ezek 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

War is one of the most dreadful forms of God’s wrath. Here’s Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:4 is about the 2nd seal. It will feature one of the four most dreadful forms of God’s wrath: wars. Wars in the 2nd seal will occur all over the world simultaneously. It’s truly Hell on Earth. Many inhabitants of Earth will be killed.

So, we know that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal. That satisfies the requirement for God’s wrath, at the beginning of the Trib.

“Delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.”

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse about the pre-Trib rapture. We will be removed from Earth prior to the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is speculative rubbish, as there simply isn't time for a large number to convert, especially knowing they will be persecuted and likely get their heads chopped off.
No; there will be very few, if any converts during the 42 month period of world control by the beast. Rev 13:5-7
There is no support for a rapture to heaven of the Church before the Great Trib, or anywhere in the Bible.

When you can’t refute, you use one of your universal outs, such as “This is speculative rubbish.”

Here’s the worst of all of God’s wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

That wrath (war) is in the 2nd seal.

All four of the most dreadful forms of God’s wrath are in the 4th seal.

Where’s the wrath in the 6th seal? You bought into the lies of the unbelievers in Rev 6:17. God put those lies in Rev 6:17 to see who would spot them for what they are —- or to see who would fall for them. You have fallen for lies clearly from an unbeliever. There is NO wrath in the 6th seal.

 

[keras]

Where’s the wrath in the 6th seal?

Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come...That Day will fall upon ALL people..... Rev 6:15
Your fanciful rapture belief, is wrong and will never happen.

it will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up.
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly says: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come...That Day will fall upon ALL people..... Rev 6:15
Your fanciful rapture belief, is wrong and will never happen.

it will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up.
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly says: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

You’re making up what the purpose is for the 6th seal. You’re not addressing the obvious answer. First, you are accepting the words of liars (unbelievers), who are interpreting the whole scene for what they think it is.

The 2nd and 4th seals are actual wrath. Combined, those two seals kill over 25% of the world’s population. The 5th seal is the first group of martyrs for the GM.

The world goes through hell in the first five seals. Wrath, of the most dreadful kinds, have thoroughly taken their toll.

Still, we have a world full of unbelievers in the 6th seal. God’s tactic isn’t more wrath. What then should God’s tactic now be? More wrath isn’t the immediate answer.

The stress on all the phenomena is the key. Therein, God shows undeniable proof that He is Almighty God. Many people at that point will finally get it. God is real, all-powerful, and they better repent before they, too, end up dead in sin.

You have to ignore the claims of the very untrustworthy unbelievers, to understand the 6th seal.

 

[keras]

You’re making up what the purpose is for the 6th seal

The Sixth Seal – Rev 6:12-17 .....There was a violent earthquake; the sun turned black and the moon as red as blood, stars fell to the earth, the sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. The kings of the earth, the rich and powerful, and all men hid themselves in caves and under rocks: they called out for the earth to hide them from the One who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great Day of their vengeance has come and who can stand? Isaiah 2:12-21

Isaiah 63:1-6... the judgement on Edom and Bozrah. Edom: the ungodly nations.” A people doomed for destruction”. Bozrah: the sheepfold, must be cleansed to become the place of safety, to which the elect will be taken, during the Tribulation. A place “at the end of the earth” a place as far as possible from Israel. Revelation 12:13-16
Rev 7:1-8 After that......[the Sixth Seal disaster] Do not damage anything further until we have set the seal of God upon His servants. .......

it will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up.
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly shows: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

I repeat: the idea of a rapture removal to heaven for anyone, is simply impossible. You are a promoter of false doctrine, repent now or face severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

of the Devil, they are already running /walking with their powers that reflects in whole world, for example, Trump is the most publicized person in the entire world today, and is not he the Rider of the Red Horse?

I'd call that claim instant illegitimacy of credibility for understanding eschatology

The ever rotating guesswork of "this guy is the antiChrist" or, in the above case, "the red horse rider"

Why anyone needs other bad guys besides the most blatantly obvious bad actor, Satan, will always remain suspect claims

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 (ESV)?

“I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

Covered this prior but will repeat:

Jesus looked at Peter and rebuked Satan. Both parties were standing there, in PETER's shoes.

One saved.
The other, damned.

This is a fairly certain and fairly simple principle. Jesus showed us this fact of Satanic presence on nearly every page of the Gospels.

Was Peter spared from tribulations, temptations, deceptions? No to all of those questions.

But ultimately it was because of the other party, Satan acting in Peter, just as it happens withIN all of us with evil present's thoughts via the tempter.

And we might even be spared from the hour trial if we TELL THE TRUTH of the above, rather than lie about being sinners and our own sin being "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Satan in people can't tell the truth, particularly in believers

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Sixth Seal – Rev 6:12-17 .....There was a violent earthquake; the sun turned black and the moon as red as blood, stars fell to the earth, the sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. The kings of the earth, the rich and powerful, and all men hid themselves in caves and under rocks: they called out for the earth to hide them from the One who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great Day of their vengeance has come and who can stand? Isaiah 2:12-21

Isaiah 63:1-6... the judgement on Edom and Bozrah. Edom: the ungodly nations.” A people doomed for destruction”. Bozrah: the sheepfold, must be cleansed to become the place of safety, to which the elect will be taken, during the Tribulation. A place “at the end of the earth” a place as far as possible from Israel. Revelation 12:13-16
Rev 7:1-8 After that......[the Sixth Seal disaster] Do not damage anything further until we have set the seal of God upon His servants. .......

I repeat: the idea of a rapture removal to heaven for anyone, is simply impossible. You are a promoter of false doctrine, repent now or face severe Judgment. James 3:1

Rev 6:12-17 has ZERO wrath. It has solar and lunar phenomena.

Rev 7:1-8 is about the sealing of the 144k as sealed servants of God. That means it’s unrelated to the 6th seal. The 144k precede the 2nd seal because there are martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals found in the 5th seal.

Your citation of Isaiah 63:1-6 is related to the 2A.

You can’t invalidate the Church being raptured to Heaven because (1) we never enter the Trib (Rev 3:10) and (2) Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Sixth Seal – Rev 6:12-17 .....There was a violent earthquake; the sun turned black and the moon as red as blood, stars fell to the earth, the sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. The kings of the earth, the rich and powerful, and all men hid themselves in caves and under rocks: they called out for the earth to hide them from the One who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great Day of their vengeance has come and who can stand? Isaiah 2:12-21

Isaiah 63:1-6... the judgement on Edom and Bozrah. Edom: the ungodly nations.” A people doomed for destruction”. Bozrah: the sheepfold, must be cleansed to become the place of safety, to which the elect will be taken, during the Tribulation. A place “at the end of the earth” a place as far as possible from Israel. Revelation 12:13-16
Rev 7:1-8 After that......[the Sixth Seal disaster] Do not damage anything further until we have set the seal of God upon His servants. .......

I repeat: the idea of a rapture removal to heaven for anyone, is simply impossible. You are a promoter of false doctrine, repent now or face severe Judgment. James 3:1

Keras, one question: Where’s the would-be assassin of Donald Trump, now?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That's why I noted you have a 2nd rapture going on with the trumpet call in Matt 24

And possibly another one with conversions post pre trib rapture? Number 3?

A dear friend of mine offered this verse. He truly is a Bible scholar, with in-depth familiarity with several books of the Bible. He's one I've learned a bunch from. He says that Matt 24:31 is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:4 (NIV): Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.

Needless to say, that is still not a rapture. They are brought back to Israel, their homeland, under the loving care of the true Messiah. It still looks most probable that they are next found in Matt 25:34-40.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is speculative rubbish, as there simply isn't time for a large number to convert, especially knowing they will be persecuted and likely get their heads chopped off.
No; there will be very few, if any converts during the 42 month period of world control by the beast. Rev 13:5-7
There is no support for a rapture to heaven of the Church before the Great Trib, or anywhere in the Bible.

Keras, I quote Scripture, and their exact points of application (Rev 4:1 is a future event, the rapture of the Church directly to Heaven). You repeatedly quote verses that are out-of-context (Rev 13:5-7 are about new converts becoming martyrs for the second group of the GM that is plain to see in Rev 20:4). You also insert opinion that has no biblical basis ("there will be very few, if any converts") where Rev 7:9 proves you wrong. You won't admit that seals 1- 5 are not yet open, when the initial construction of the GM depends on seals 2 and 4 (Rev 6:10). The GM (all new converts who will be martyred) will total in the millions, if not hundreds of millions (Rev 7:9). Daniel's 70th week is seven years long. How can you ignore that? This is what kills me about you. You reinvent Scripture to suit your false doctrine. Jesus said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." Jesus will see to it we are pre-Trib raptured straight to Heaven through Rev 4:1. You can't find in Scripture where Apostle John left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Rev 4:1 is a wholly future event.

 

[keras]

Keras, one question: Where’s the would-be assassin of Donald Trump, now?

He is dead and has no consciousness now.
He will be raised to stand before God in Judgment, along with everyone who has ever lived. Then he will be flung into the Lake of Fire, to be remembered no more.

Rev 4:1 is a future event

You show your willingness to make plain Bible verses, mean something else. Rev 4:1 has no application to anyone other than John.
I doubt you could find anyone who fully agrees with your belief.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

He is dead and has no consciousness now.
He will be raised to stand before God in Judgment, along with everyone who has ever lived. Then he will be flung into the Lake of Fire, to be remembered no more.

You show your willingness to make plain Bible verses, mean something else. Rev 4:1 has no application to anyone other than John.
I doubt you could find anyone who fully agrees with your belief.

Then, it's on you to prove John left Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Let's see it, big boy.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Then, it's on you to prove John left Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Let's see it, big boy.

What is the purpose of Hades? You probably deny its existence. Rev 20:14 (ESV): Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 1:`8 (NIV): I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

 

[keras]

Then, it's on you to prove John left Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Let's see it, big boy.

Revelation 4:1 After this, [the Message to the Seven Church's] I had a vision; A door stood open in heaven and the Voice that I has first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: Come up here and I will show you what must take place hereafter.

John went to heaven in the Spirit, Rev 4:2, he was given the Prophecy of the end times that we now have as the Book of Revelation.
There is nothing there about anyone else going to heaven. Seems like a little boys fairy tale.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 4:1 After this, [the Message to the Seven Church's] I had a vision; A door stood open in heaven and the Voice that I has first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: Come up here and I will show you what must take place hereafter.

John went to heaven in the Spirit, Rev 4:2, he was given the Prophecy of the end times that we now have as the Book of Revelation.
There is nothing there about anyone else going to heaven. Seems like a little boys fairy tale.

Read Rev 4:1 closer. It says, "I had a vision; a door stood open in Heaven ..." All John saw was in his vision. He never left Patmos; he never went to Heaven.

Rev 4:1 remains a wholly future event. We will be raptured straight to Heaven, before the Trib. Funny how this aligns with what Jesus said in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial."

 

[keras]

Read Rev 4:1 closer. It says, "I had a vision; a door stood open in Heaven ..." All John saw was in his vision. He never left Patmos; he never went to Heaven.

I have to wonder about your ability to read words and comprehend facts.
The angel said: Come up here.......

Whether John went to heaven or not, is irrelevant and in no way supports the false idea of the Church being raptured to heaven.