VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is pure rubbish, believed by the deceived 'rapture to heaven' fools. Them in heaven, while Israel - the Jews, get beaten up.
It is not what the Bible says at all.

My entire counter argument blows apart your false beliefs.
Jesus said He would keep His people safe. He will do that by protecting them; NOT by removing them.

You need to read your Bible a lot more; Psalms 23 and 91 tell about His protection and many verses are very specific about the forthcoming disaster by fire we will all experience. Isaiah 43:2, Jeremiah 17:7-8, 2 Thess 1:7, Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

So; He was just taking about actual wheat and tares? Jesus did explain that Parable, but we know from many other scriptures what Jesus did after His death and the fact of the dead 'sleeping in their graves'. Acts 13:36
The story of Abraham and the rich man is not and cannot be actual. The dead know nothing - end of story.

The repentant thief will be raised along with everyone who has ever lived, at the GWT Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15
His name will be found in the Book of Life and Eternal life will be given to him then.

Keras, we are removed from Earth before the Trib. “Delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10 is associated with the second definition of deliverance. It means “snatch away.” John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. —— Those rapture verses prove we are snatched up and away.

Jesus said in John 14:3 (NIV): “… that you also may be where I am.” Where is Jesus now, Keras? Rev 3:10 (ESV): “… I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ——- The hour of trial that we are kept from is “coming on the whole world” means we are kept from the entire planet. We are factually removed from Earth. Rev 4:1 (ESV): … “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” —— Keras, where is “here” in Rev 4:1? We are raptured to Heaven.

None of the verses you cited say believers enter the Trib. Therefore, none of the verses you cited refute any part of the verses above. You are completely refuted. We are pre-Trib raptured directly to Heaven.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So; He was just taking about actual wheat and tares?

He provided the description of what these stood for in the parable, so connect the dots

Wheat = People
Tares = Devils

Pretty simple

Just as sheep = People
Goats = Devils

There are many such analogies/allegories/parables/similitude's and they all use the same decipher, per Mark 4:13-15 identifying the parties involved, People and Devils

 

[keras]

He provided the description of what these stood for in the parable, so connect the dots

In Luke 16; Abraham = godly and faithful people and the rich man = the ungodly and unfaithful people. Their respective fates are told to us in Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus did not mean any actual people.

 

[keras]

None of the verses you cited say believers enter the Trib.

But Revelation 12:17 does.
You are wrong and your determination to promote false ideas, will count against you at the Judgment.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

In Luke 16; Abraham = godly and faithful people and the rich man = the ungodly and unfaithful people. Their respective fates are told to us in Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus did not mean any actual people.

Jesus provided the understanding for all parables in Mark 4:13-15 wherein there are 3 parties:

God's Word, People, Devils

If these are missing in anyone else's description, they're off base and not in compliance with Jesus' format

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But Revelation 12:17 does.
You are wrong and your determination to promote false ideas, will count against you at the Judgment.

Like I said before about Rev 12:17, those are new converts, which are called “saints.” They will be martyrs for the second group of the GM. They are later found in Rev 20:4. They are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. Next, they are seen in Rev 7:9-17, in Heaven.

You need to be reminded that “everyone” on Earth shows up in the 6th seal. They all react to an alleged sighting of Jesus. They react by running IN TERROR to hide from Jesus. I ask you: Is that the behavior of believers? You know it’s not, for believers would be OVERJOYED if Jesus were near! We’d run to Him to praise and worship Him! Therefore, “everyone” on Earth in the 6th seal is a certified unbeliever. Those facts prove that the “saints” in Rev 12:17 entered the Trib as unbelievers. Many come to Christ in the Trib. They are all martyred and they become the GM.

You can’t win at claiming believers enter the Trib. Jesus backs me up by His PROMISE in Rev 3:10 (ESV): “… I will keep you from the hour of trial.” There will not be any believers entering the Trib. All the evidence supports that. Your one verse, 12:17, is proof of that when you acknowledge the truth that EVERYONE is an unbeliever, in the 6th seal.

Keras, you provably preach falsehoods. I am trying to help you see the truth. You’ve seen proof that you’re wrong. Why won’t you acknowledge the truth?

 

[Oseas]

He provided the description of what these stood for in the parable, so connect the dots

Wheat = People
Tares = Devils

Pretty simple

Just as sheep = People
Goats = Devils

There are many such analogies/allegories/parables/similitude's and they all use the same decipher, per Mark 4:13-15 identifying the parties involved, People and Devils

Jesus provided the understanding for all parables in Mark 4:13-15 wherein there are 3 parties:

God's Word, People, Devils

If these are missing in anyone else's description, they're off base and not in compliance with Jesus' format

The Earth as a whole is infested of devils/demons, and there is a multitude of false Christians among them-Matthew 24:10-13, and 1Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - , and they really believe there is indeed one GOD-James 2:19 combined with 2Corinthians 11:13-15, but they as ministers of Satan use the Scriptures as the Devil also used in the temptation of our Lord JESUS Christ, so we must DISCERN this devilish strategy of the Devil, and not fall into his satanic traps, as for example, in the false rapture preached by demons.

They preach the false rapture to the heaven, but in fact they have already been raptured to heaven, but by the red Dragon still being he in the heavenly environment, and with his TAIL (false preachers-Isaiah 9:15-16 combined with 2Corinthians 11:13:15), the Devil did cast many upon the earth-Revelation 12:4-.(THEY APOSTATED-1Timothy 4:1-2 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

And now dominated by the TAIL of the red Dragon, they work for the Devil believing in false interpretations of the Word of GOD(Isaiah 9:15-16 and 2Corinthians 11:13-15, spreading his deceptive and satanic messages -Revelation 12:9-, as for example, the false rapture preached by the demons.

1John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.-> false preachers of the Word of GOD, the TAIL of the red Dragon-Isaiah 9:15-16 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

 

[keras]

You can’t win at claiming believers enter the Trib.

You have lost already.
Revelation 13:5-7 and Daniel 7:25 proves the Christian peoples are present on earth when the 'beast' takes world control.

Keras, you provably preach falsehoods.

I preach the truth and you hate it, as the truth contradicts your false beliefs.
Because you seem incapable of understanding the Prophetic Word as Written and determinedly grip onto false theories, you have made yourself a laughingstock and others her, even though they may also believe in a rapture, [mostly Post trib] you have little or no support here.

Although your family and friends all agree: We're gonna be RRRRRRRaptured!!!!!!! They are all deceived and it is going to go hard for everyone who has failed to properly ascertain what the Lord really does plan for His people in the last days.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But Revelation 12:17 does.
You are wrong and your determination to promote false ideas, will count against you at the Judgment.

Keras, again, the 6th seal proves that when it occurs, everyone on Earth is a certified unbeliever.

What you are therefore referring to in Rev 12:17 are new converts. They will be martyred because of their testimony of Jesus Christ. They will become the second group of the GM.

Again, you lose.

 

[keras]

the 6th seal proves that when it occurs, everyone on Earth is a certified unbeliever.

Loke 21:35 says the wrath of the Lord will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Rev 6:12-17 does not say only unbelievers will experience it. Isaiah 26:19-20 proves believers will too.

What you are therefore referring to in Rev 12:17 are new converts

This idea is quite ridiculous, as Rev 12:17 shows Satan persecuting them as soon as he conquers the holy people, Half of them will be taken to a safe place, where Satan cannot get at them. Rev 12:14

Your false beliefs lead you into making wild and unscriptural statements. You are discredited and all can see your hopeless confusion and errors.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Loke 21:35 says the wrath of the Lord will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Rev 6:12-17 does not say only unbelievers will experience it. Isaiah 26:19-20 proves believers will too.

This idea is quite ridiculous, as Rev 12:17 shows Satan persecuting them as soon as he conquers the holy people, Half of them will be taken to a safe place, where Satan cannot get at them. Rev 12:14

Your false beliefs lead you into making wild and unscriptural statements. You are discredited and all can see your hopeless confusion and errors.

Keras, what is the context of Isaiah 26:19-20? Aren’t those verses about believers avoiding wrath? Prove those verses apply to the Trib.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Earth as a whole is infested of devils/demons, and there is a multitude of false Christians among them-Matthew 24:10-13, and 1Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - , and they really believe there is indeed one GOD-James 2:19 combined with 2Corinthians 11:13-15, but they as ministers of Satan use the Scriptures as the Devil also used in the temptation of our Lord JESUS Christ, so we must DISCERN this devilish strategy of the Devil, and not fall into his satanic traps, as for example, in the false rapture preached by demons.

They preach the false rapture to the heaven, but in fact they have already been raptured to heaven, but by the red Dragon still being he in the heavenly environment, and with his TAIL (false preachers-Isaiah 9:15-16

The bold parts shows some weakness in theological understandings. Definitely not orthodox. Not that that's a problem necessarily, just worthy of questions, such as:

IF devils are liars, (John 8:44) and a liar says "I believe" are they telling the truth? I'd have to say no, which is why they tremble, because they're lying, even when speaking half truths which are basic lies. Common conundrum in scripture.

Basic lesson is that devils are always liars.

I've run into the second part of your bolded statement before, and it largely stems from a false teaching that the devil and his messengers will be cast to the earth at some future point, but now they are supposedly in heaven. That isn't the case. The devil and his messengers are here, on earth, unseen, right now, and have been from day 1 of mankind.

In Revelation we are engaging things that have already happened, things that are and things that are to come. The notion that the devil isn't here on earth is one of the simpler lies of the devil.

And it would be good to clear up the fact that preachers/people are not devils. It appears you have a blurred line on that subject as well.

I suspect you're in some offshoot cult. Just sayin. Nothing personal.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Loke 21:35 says the wrath of the Lord will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Rev 6:12-17 does not say only unbelievers will experience it. Isaiah 26:19-20 proves believers will too.

This idea is quite ridiculous, as Rev 12:17 shows Satan persecuting them as soon as he conquers the holy people, Half of them will be taken to a safe place, where Satan cannot get at them. Rev 12:14

Your false beliefs lead you into making wild and unscriptural statements. You are discredited and all can see your hopeless confusion and errors.

Loke 21:35 says the wrath of the Lord will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Rev 6:12-17 does not say only unbelievers will experience it. Isaiah 26:19-20 proves believers will too.

This idea is quite ridiculous, as Rev 12:17 shows Satan persecuting them as soon as he conquers the holy people, Half of them will be taken to a safe place, where Satan cannot get at them. Rev 12:14

Your false beliefs lead you into making wild and unscriptural statements. You are discredited and all can see your hopeless confusion and errors.

Rev 6:15-17 proves “everyone” on Earth is gathered. They all react in terror to an alleged sighting of Jesus. They run away to hide. That is the antithesis of Christian behavior.

Christians would be overjoyed if Jesus were near. We’d run to Him, full of praise and worship! The very unchristian behavior by EVERYONE on Earth upon Rev 6:15-17 is proof they are all unbelievers.

Therefore, all “saints” in the Trib can ONLY BE former unbelievers who have converted.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Rev 6:15-17 proves “everyone” on Earth is gathered. They all react in terror to an alleged sighting of Jesus. They run away to hide. That is the antithesis of Christian behavior.

Christians would be overjoyed if Jesus were near. We’d run to Him, full of praise and worship! The very unchristian behavior by EVERYONE on Earth upon Rev 6:15-17 is proof they are all unbelievers.

Therefore, all “saints” in the Trib can ONLY BE former unbelievers who have converted.

Your position might be modified if you saw the fact that Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan

Just WHO would be horrified at Jesus' return, Peter or Satan?

Most theological positions are void of the "other party(s)" when making observations

Satan is to be bruised under "our feet." Romans 16:20

The churches are not getting an early out

We may be spared the trial. Satan and devils will not be spared

Both being spared and not being spared transpire in the same pair of shoes

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your position might be modified if you saw the fact that Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan

Just WHO would be horrified at Jesus' return, Peter or Satan?

Most theological positions are void of the "other party(s)" when making observations

Satan is to be bruised under "our feet." Romans 16:20

The churches are not getting an early out

We may be spared the trial. Satan and devils will not be spared

Both being spared and not being spared transpire in the same pair of shoes

Your position might be modified if you saw the fact that Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan

Just WHO would be horrified at Jesus' return, Peter or Satan?

Most theological positions are void of the "other party(s)" when making observations

Satan is to be bruised under "our feet." Romans 16:20

The churches are not getting an early out

We may be spared the trial. Satan and devils will not be spared

Both being spared and not being spared transpire in the same pair of shoes

My position is dictated by Jesus.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In the verse above, “you” is directed toward believers, only, and “those” refers only to unbelievers. In the context of the Trib, “those who dwell in the earth” are unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jesus says in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world,…” That means “you” (believers) will not enter the Trib.

Jesus continues with: “… to try those who dwell on the earth.” Only “those” who dwell in the earth will face the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

Only unbelievers enter the Trib. That’s true in Rev 6:10, Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:4 as well as Rev 13:3.

The “saints” in the Trib are new converts. They result from the hard work of the 144k who save a great multitude (Rev 7:9).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

My position is dictated by Jesus.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In the verse above, “you” is directed toward believers, only, and “those” refers only to unbelievers. In the context of the Trib, “those who dwell in the earth” are unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jesus says in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world,…” That means “you” (believers) will not enter the Trib.

Jesus continues with: “… to try those who dwell on the earth.” Only “those” who dwell in the earth will face the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

Only unbelievers enter the Trib. That’s true in Rev 6:10, Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:4 as well as Rev 13:3.

The “saints” in the Trib are new converts. They result from the hard work of the 144k who save a great multitude (Rev 7:9).

IF you claim to be listening to Jesus, then you'd understand we live by "every," emphasis, every Word of God. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3

So the question is, why do you bypass all the bad Words to the churches therein?

Take it all or stick with half a loaf?

Here's a basic lesson on "you" not being just "you." Same applies to all of us:

All have (present tense, have) sin, Romans 3:9. We're no better than any other sinner.

And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15. Maybe you should be thankful Jesus is against the devil and accept the fact that we're all still under the influence. Unless you want to go down claiming you're sinless?

Your entire end time construct is entirely void of the devil, and the wrath and tribulation unto them.

Go figure

 

[Oseas]

The bold parts shows some weakness in theological understandings. Definitely not orthodox. Not that that's a problem necessarily, just worthy of questions, such as:

IF devils are liars, (John 8:44) and a liar says "I believe" are they telling the truth? I'd have to say no, which is why they tremble, because they're lying, even when speaking half truths which are basic lies. Common conundrum in scripture.

Basic lesson is that devils are always liars.

I've run into the second part of your bolded statement before, and it largely stems from a false teaching that the devil and his messengers will be cast to the earth at some future point, but now they are supposedly in heaven. That isn't the case. The devil and his messengers are here, on earth, unseen, right now, and have been from day 1 of mankind.

In Revelation we are engaging things that have already happened, things that are and things that are to come. The notion that the devil isn't here on earth is one of the simpler lies of the devil.

Then the content of your reply confirms literally what I posted for you: -->The Earth as a whole is INFESTED of devils/demons(sons of Devil), and there is a multitude of false Christians among them-Matthew 24:10-13, and 1Timothy 4:1-2, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - , and they really believe there is indeed one GOD-James 2:19 combined with 2Corinthians 11:13-15, but they as MINISTERS of Satan use the Scriptures as the Devil also used in the temptation of our Lord JESUS Christ, so we must DISCERN this devilish strategy of the Devil, and not fall into his satanic traps, as for example, in the false rapture preached by demons.

And it would be good to clear up the fact that preachers/people are not devils. It appears you have a blurred line on that subject as well.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing.

2Corinthians 11:13-15

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (false Christians, apostates)

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (the light is the Word of GOD)

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS (MINISTERS OF DEVIL) also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose END shall be according to their works.--> By the way, these are already CURSED by written by my Lord JESUS Christ-Matthew 25:41 & 46:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life Eternal.

 

[keras]

Keras, what is the context of Isaiah 26:19-20? Aren’t those verses about believers avoiding wrath? Prove those verses apply to the Trib.

They apply to the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath. We are told to take cover for that one day and if we are unable to get suitable cover, we have His Promise of protection from the heat; Jeremiah 17:7-8 There will be no rapture removal.

all “saints” in the Trib can ONLY BE former unbelievers who have converted.

A very flimsy way of attempting to show the Church will be raptured to heaven.
You must first show undeniable evidence that the faithful Christians are removed from the earth before the Trib. Which is simply not there.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Id

In Luke 16; Abraham = godly and faithful people and the rich man = the ungodly and unfaithful people. Their respective fates are told to us in Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus did not mean any actual people.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

IF you claim to be listening to Jesus, then you'd understand we live by "every," emphasis, every Word of God. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut 8:3

So the question is, why do you bypass all the bad Words to the churches therein?

Take it all or stick with half a loaf?

Here's a basic lesson on "you" not being just "you." Same applies to all of us:

All have (present tense, have) sin, Romans 3:9. We're no better than any other sinner.

And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15. Maybe you should be thankful Jesus is against the devil and accept the fact that we're all still under the influence. Unless you want to go down claiming you're sinless?

Your entire end time construct is entirely void of the devil, and the wrath and tribulation unto them.

Go figure

They apply to the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath. We are told to take cover for that one day and if we are unable to get suitable cover, we have His Promise of protection from the heat; Jeremiah 17:7-8 There will be no rapture removal.

A very flimsy way of attempting to show the Church will be raptured to heaven.
You must first show undeniable evidence that the faithful Christians are removed from the earth before the Trib. Which is simply not there.

Prove the “firery wrath” in the 6th seal.

Prove Christians in the 6th seal.

The proof of believers never entering the Trib: Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” Rev 4:1 is the rapture to Heaven. What does “Come up here” mean in Rev 4:1?