VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You’re the one who said, “The story about the rich man and Abraham, is not a reality, …”

The burden is on you to prove they are “not a reality.”

1 Peter 3:19-20 (ESV): in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, …

Those who were disobedient in Noah’s days died in sin. Those folks went to Hades, which is a hellish prison. It is not Hell, as that is the lake of fire.

Matt 24:31 is a gathering to where? The best guess is it goes to Matt 25:34-40.

Matt 24:31 is not the rapture because it is not a “gathering unto Him,” as in 2 Th 2:1, John 14:3, 1 Th 4:17, and Rev 4:1. Therefore, there is no way the rapture occurs in the Trib.

The rapture will occur pre-Trib, just as Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” “You” is a reference to believers; “those” is a reference to unbelievers.

All references in the the Trib of “those who dwell on the earth,” are unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture, to suffer in 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

I'm not a pre trib rapture believer, but ah, parables are definitely truthful and contain actual entities and people, such as Lazarus and Abraham in the parable in question in Luke 16

A simple litmus test of the reality factor is in Mark 4:13-15, where we learn about how to understand all parables.

In that parable there are 3 parties, God, people and Satan. Is Satan real? Is God real? Are people real?

Of course these are all real agents so, parables are in fact quite real, though not 100% empirically provable because 2 out of the 3 parties are unseen, that being God and Satan

Anyone who believes in God believes in invisible Agency and has the faith to perceive same to a limited unseen extent

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the seed, the Word, Jesus

These are not easy matters to sort through, as our confines of the 5 senses tend to force us into strictly literal sights and understandings

The "reality" is that Satan is bruised under our own 2 feet, presumably at the finale, thee end of this wicked age

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I'm not a pre trib rapture believer, but ah, parables are definitely truthful and contain actual entities and people, such as Lazarus and Abraham in the parable in question in Luke 16

A simple litmus test of the reality factor is in Mark 4:13-15, where we learn about how to understand all parables.

In that parable there are 3 parties, God, people and Satan. Is Satan real? Is God real? Are people real?

Of course these are all real agents so, parables are in fact quite real, though not 100% empirically provable because 2 out of the 3 parties are unseen, that being God and Satan

Anyone who believes in God believes in invisible Agency and has the faith to perceive same to a limited unseen extent

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the seed, the Word, Jesus

These are not easy matters to sort through, as our confines of the 5 senses tend to force us into strictly literal sights and understandings

The "reality" is that Satan is bruised under our own 2 feet, presumably at the finale, thee end of this wicked age

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I'm not a pre trib rapture believer, but ah, parables are definitely truthful and contain actual entities and people, such as Lazarus and Abraham in the parable in question in Luke 16

A simple litmus test of the reality factor is in Mark 4:13-15, where we learn about how to understand all parables.

In that parable there are 3 parties, God, people and Satan. Is Satan real? Is God real? Are people real?

Of course these are all real agents so, parables are in fact quite real, though not 100% empirically provable because 2 out of the 3 parties are unseen, that being God and Satan

Anyone who believes in God believes in invisible Agency and has the faith to perceive same to a limited unseen extent

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the seed, the Word, Jesus

These are not easy matters to sort through, as our confines of the 5 senses tend to force us into strictly literal sights and understandings

The "reality" is that Satan is bruised under our own 2 feet, presumably at the finale, thee end of this wicked age

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

There is proof that no believers enter the Trib. It’s in Jesus’ words.

 

[keras]

There is proof that no believers enter the Trib. It’s in Jesus’ words.

The indisputable proof, in the Words of Jesus; Revelation 12:17, is that Christian believers will face persecution during the 42 month period of world 'beast; control. Rev 13:5-8
Your beliefs are wrong; all must be tried and tested, there is no escape to heaven for the Church.

 

[expos4ever]

I do not believe that scripture teaches a Rapture of any kind. More specifically, I believe those who believe in the rapture have misunderstood imagery from the New testament.

 

[keras]

parables are definitely truthful and contain actual entities and people, such as Lazarus and Abraham in the parable in question in Luke 16

The question under discussion is - Did Jesus and the repentant thief go directly to Paradise, when they died? And is there such a place as Paradise?

That they did not, is proved by 1 Peter 3:18-19.
The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, is a homily ; just a story told to show us that this life is our only chance to get right with God.
We know it is not a real description of heaven and hell, as it does not relate to Revelation 21 & 22:1-5, which describes how God and therefore; heaven come to us and the Eternal state. Also people do not burn in hell forever, as many scriptures say the wicked will be destroyed and remembered no more.

 

[Oseas]

Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him, the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. Not so, go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came. They that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Meanwhile, the fools were buying and selling oil, terrible, very terrible, and they cried: Lord, Lord, open the door to us. They lost their souls for ever and ever. Never will be another oportunity of salvation, for the sellers and for the buyers of oil, no, never more.

Get ready, now the time is of a ROD of iron

Revelation 2:26-29
26 He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the END, to him will I give power over the NATIONS:-->Revelation 11:15-18
27 And he shall RULE them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Get ready

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The indisputable proof, in the Words of Jesus; Revelation 12:17, is that Christian believers will face persecution during the 42 month period of world 'beast; control. Rev 13:5-8
Your beliefs are wrong; all must be tried and tested, there is no escape to heaven for the Church.

Keras, you are still ignoring the common attribute to all new converts in the Trib: they are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

The indisputable proof, in the Words of Jesus; Revelation 12:17, is that Christian believers will face persecution during the 42 month period of world 'beast; control. Rev 13:5-8
Your beliefs are wrong; all must be tried and tested, there is no escape to heaven for the Church.

Keras, words from Jesus in: Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” Those words mean no believers will enter the Trib.

Rev 13:3 (ESV): One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

Only unbelievers enter the Trib. That’s true in Rev 6:10, Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:4 as well as Rev 13:3.

The “saints” in the Trib are new converts. You never acknowledge the hard work of the 144k who save a great multitude (Rev 7:9).

Rev 13:15 (ESV): And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

The new converts are slain. They give testimony of Jesus Christ and, in the GT, they refuse to worship the beast. Those are the martyrs who become the two groups of “fellow servants” who fulfill “the number” required for the GM (Rev 6:11). You ignore Rev 6:11 because it proves the first five seal judgments have not yet been opened.

Jesus has promised that we believers will not enter the Trib (Rev 3:10). All “saints” in the Trib are new converts who are martyred (Rev 6:10; Rev 12:11; and Rev 13:15). They all become the GM (Rev 7:9-17).

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

No

 

[keras]

Keras, you are still ignoring the common attribute to all new converts in the Trib: they are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will be very few, if any new converts during the final 42 months, when the GT takes place. Rev 13 -pr0ves it

Keras, words from Jesus in: Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” Those words mean no believers will enter the Trib.

Those who; - Call upon the Name of the Lord when disaster strikes, will be protected. As Isaiah 43:2 and many other Prophesies plainly say.

Your constant repetition of verses that do not prove a rapture to heaven, is simply boring and just shows your abject failure to support such an unbelievable idea.
If you must keep on believing fables, don't make a fool of yourself by promoting unbiblical rubbish.

 

[Oseas]

Only unbelievers enter the Trib. That’s true in Rev 6:10, Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:4 as well as Rev 13:3.
The “saints” in the Trib are new converts. You never acknowledge the hard work of the 144k who save a great multitude (Rev 7:9).
Rev 13:15 (ESV): And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
The new converts are slain. They give testimony of Jesus Christ and, in the GT, they refuse to worship the beast. Those are the martyrs who become the two groups of “fellow servants” who fulfill “the number” required for the GM (Rev 6:11). You ignore Rev 6:11 because it proves the first five seal judgments have not yet been opened.
Jesus has promised that we believers will not enter the Trib (Rev 3:10). All “saints” in the Trib are new converts who are martyred (Rev 6:10; Rev 12:11; and Rev 13:15). They all become the GM (Rev 7:9-17).

The theory "the Rapture shall happen before the 7 year Tribulation period"" it is incorrect completely.

In fact, the Theory is wrong completely, and all will see this very soon, as soon as be elected the next and last Pope, and manifestation of the MAN Beast of the earth-Revelation 13:11- who has two horns like a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah(John 5:43-47), and he speaks as dragon. The last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27 will LITERALLY be fulfiled with the manifestation of the MAN of sin, son of perdition, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders-2Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Many shall be PURIFIED, and made white, and TRIED;
but the wicked shall do wickedly:
none of the wicked shall understand;
the wise shall understand.

GET READY

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There will be very few, if any new converts during the final 42 months, when the GT takes place. Rev 13 -pr0ves it

Those who; - Call upon the Name of the Lord when disaster strikes, will be protected. As Isaiah 43:2 and many other Prophesies plainly say.

Your constant repetition of verses that do not prove a rapture to heaven, is simply boring and just shows your abject failure to support such an unbelievable idea.
If you must keep on believing fables, don't make a fool of yourself by promoting unbiblical rubbish.

You’re rewriting Rev 3:10. We never enter the Trib. Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That means we never enter the Trib. Are you an objective Bible scholar? If so, why don't you see that truth?

We’re taken to Heaven via Rev 4:1. How do I know that? Jesus also said in Rev 3:10 that “the hour of trial” will engulf the whole world. We will be kept from it. Jesus WILL take us to Heaven, fulfilling 1 Th 1:10; 1 Th 4:17; 2 Th 2:1; John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. John 14:3 cites “my Father’s house.” Where is that, Keras? It’s not about the NHNE. We’re taking about Heaven, before the Trib, not after the GWTJ. Rev 4:1 commands us to “Come up here.” Where to, Keras?

All three of those quotes are fromJesus. It is a biblical fact that all believers (those alive and those who died in Christ) as of the pre-Trib rapture, will be taken to Heaven.

Some other points to ponder. The 144k are sealed as servants of God in Rev 7:1-8. There’s obviously an interlude between verses 8 and 9, of about six years.

Verses 9-17 are all about the great multitude of new converts from the Trib. The 144k helped save a few —- a few hundred million, at a minimum.

You still won’t acknowledge the truth of Rev 6:11. There are two groups that make up the GM: Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. The first group of martyrs comes from seals 2 and 4. The second group is completed in the GT. Seals 1 - 5 are thereby proven to have never yet been opened. That is why you won’t acknowledge Rev 6:9-11. Why not now, based upon on the biblical truth above?

 

[keras]

You’re rewriting Rev 3:10. We never enter the Trib. Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That means we never enter the Trib. Are you an objective Bible scholar? If so, why don't you see that truth?

You jump to wrong conclusions.
It is your belief in a rapture to heaven, which colours your error of thinking Rev 3:10 means removal. But as there is no proof text of the Lord taking His people to heaven and there is many scriptures which tell us how He will protect His own, during the testing times ahead, then it is you who fails to be objective.

You still won’t acknowledge the truth of Rev 6:11. There are two groups that make up the GM: Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. The first group of martyrs comes from seals 2 and 4. The second group is completed in the GT. Seals 1 - 5 are thereby proven to have never yet been opened. That is why you won’t acknowledge Rev 6:9-11.

All this is just your faulty and biased beliefs. I reject it all and your intransigent inability to comprehend the truth, will make things very hard for you, as the end times unfold.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You jump to wrong conclusions.
It is your belief in a rapture to heaven, which colours your error of thinking Rev 3:10 means removal. But as there is no proof text of the Lord taking His people to heaven and there is many scriptures which tell us how He will protect His own, during the testing times ahead, then it is you who fails to be objective.

All this is just your faulty and biased beliefs. I reject it all and your intransigent inability to comprehend the truth, will make things very hard for you, as the end times unfold.

Keras, true or false? Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

True or false? Those words mean He will keep us out of the 7-year Trib.

 

[Oseas]

Didn't you still understand that the fifith and last kingdom of the Devil will not be political, or military, but a RELIGIOUS Kingdom and Antichrist? i.e. against the establishment of the wonderful and ineffable Kingdom of GOD? Revelation 11:15-18.
Judaism and Catholicism through the MAN Beast of the earth-Revelation 13:11- , the false messiah of the Jews enthroned in Jerusalem, together with the MAN Beast of sea- Revelation 13:2 - , the Papacy and the RCC which rides upon the Beast of sea, both BEASTS - of the Judaism and Catholicism - the clay and the iron - will build an Universal and SATANIC and religious KINGDOM as soon be elected the next and last Pope, and also be manifested the false messiah of the Jews, of course, the MAN of sin, son of perdition-2Thessalonians 2:2-12-, then will LITERALLY be fulfilled, until the END, the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27.

Get ready

 

[keras]

Keras, true or false? Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

True or false? Those words mean He will keep us out of the 7-year Trib.

I'll try to be clearer.
Revelation 3:10 does not say, or even hint; that the way Jesus will keep His people from the Great tribulation, will be by removing them from the earth.
Revelation 12 tells us the truth; verse 14 says how the Lord will provide transport for the faithful Christians to a place of safety on earth. Verse 17 says; those Christians who violated the Covenant, Danel 11:32, must remain where they are.

The rapture to heaven theory is false teaching and will never happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I'll try to be clearer.
Revelation 3:10 does not say, or even hint; that the way Jesus will keep His people from the Great tribulation, will be by removing them from the earth.
Revelation 12 tells us the truth; verse 14 says how the Lord will provide transport for the faithful Christians to a place of safety on earth. Verse 17 says; those Christians who violated the Covenant, Danel 11:32, must remain where they are.

The rapture to heaven theory is false teaching and will never happen.

Keras, you’re missing the big picture. The Trib is primarily about converting Israel. Please read Matt 23.

Rev 12 and the dragon are about Israel (“the elect”). Satan is thrown down to Earth. He indwells the AC. The fleeing aligns with Matt 24:16-20. They are gathered in Matt 24:31.

Rev 12:17 (ESV): Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[c] on the sand of the sea.

Those folks have the key attributes of new converts: those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. They are martyrs who will complete “the number” for the GM (Rev 6:11). They will be resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4.

In Rev 3:10, the “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib. Jesus will “deliver us” from the “coming wrath” (1 Th 1:10). In Rev 3:10, Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” We never enter the Trib. We go straight to Heaven, per Rev 4:1.

Jesus specifies in Rev 3:10 that only “those who dwell on the earth” will be tested and tried in the hour of trial. In the Trib, “those who dwell on the earth” are proven murderers of new converts (Rev 6:10). The first group of the GM are the martyrs out of seals 2 and 4.

Your entire counter argument is 100% false. Do you seek to make Jesus a liar in Rev 3:10?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There is proof that no believers enter the Trib. It’s in Jesus’ words.

The "great tribulation" is undoubtedly for the devil and his messengers, don't you think?

Since all have sin, Romans 3:9, and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 it might seem that it will strike pretty close to home.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Do the math from there. Pretrib rapture though is off the table. The elect are still here, to endure to the end

The question under discussion is - Did Jesus and the repentant thief go directly to Paradise, when they died? And is there such a place as Paradise?

That they did not, is proved by 1 Peter 3:18-19.
The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, is a homily ; just a story told to show us that this life is our only chance to get right with God.
We know it is not a real description of heaven and hell, as it does not relate to Revelation 21 & 22:1-5, which describes how God and therefore; heaven come to us and the Eternal state. Also people do not burn in hell forever, as many scriptures say the wicked will be destroyed and remembered no more.

Just a story? I provided a couple specific citings of "why" parables are not "just stories," because they contained both named actors such as Satan, who is not "just a story" and Abraham, who is not "just a story."

It is unlikely that Jesus made up stories about real entities such as Satan and Abraham when their "real stories" can be told.

As to the thief in paradise. Of course, that was the case. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and I'm pretty sure most of us would consider that paradise. This doesn't mean however that paradise is final chapter for anyone until the end of this wicked age, when the "real story" is completed.

 

[Oseas]

The Devil taketh JESUS up on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto JESUS: If thou be the Son of GOD, cast thyself down: for it is written in the Psalms 91:11-12:--> 11He shall give His angels charge concerning thee: 12 and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan knows that GOD shall give His angels charge concerning of His people under any circumstances, for example, Revelation 13:5-9 - the first half of the last week, week 70th.

But JESUS knewing He could do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth (Satan used the Word of GOD to try JESUS), then JESUS said to the Devil: It also is written: Ye shall not tempt the Lord your GOD-Deuteronomy 6:16.

Keras, true or false? Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”
True or false? Those words mean He will keep us out of the 7-year Trib.

Revelation 3:10 is true, of course, BUT the people of GOD will be KEPT/SAVED according to the will of JESUS, understand? Yeah, according to the will of JESUS. JESUS said to the Father in His preayer: John 17:15-> I pray not that thou should take them OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should KEEP them from the Evil. Holy Father, KEEP through thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Revelation 3:10 is true, of course, but it also is written: Daniel 12:10 & 12
10 Many shall be PURIFIED, and made white, AND TRIED;
but the wicked shall do wickedly:
none of the wicked shall understand;
the wise shall understand.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

GET READY

What is not true is your devilish imagination and false interpretation of the Word of GOD, what you are saying and doing here is the same the Devil made with JESUS in the temptation, as above is described.

Many shall be PURIFIED, and made white, and TRIED;
but the wicked shall do wickedly:
none of the wicked shall understand;
the wise shall understand.

GET READY

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The "great tribulation" is undoubtedly for the devil and his messengers, don't you think?

Since all have sin, Romans 3:9, and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 it might seem that it will strike pretty close to home.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Do the math from there. Pretrib rapture though is off the table. The elect are still here, to endure to the end

Just a story? I provided a couple specific citings of "why" parables are not "just stories," because they contained both named actors such as Satan, who is not "just a story" and Abraham, who is not "just a story."

It is unlikely that Jesus made up stories about real entities such as Satan and Abraham when their "real stories" can be told.

As to the thief in paradise. Of course, that was the case. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and I'm pretty sure most of us would consider that paradise. This doesn't mean however that paradise is final chapter for anyone until the end of this wicked age, when the "real story" is completed.

No, the GT is the last chance for living unbelievers to avoid their final judgment in Matt 25:41-46 (ESV): 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Satan and his angels will be on the loose until Satan is imprisoned in Rev 20:1-3 (ESV): Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

That will occur shortly before the MK. Therefore, Satan will be on the loose until then.

A thousand years later, Satan will be released for a little while: Rev 20:7-10 (ESV): And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Oseas]

No, the GT is the last chance for living unbelievers to avoid their final judgment in Matt 25:41-46 (ESV): 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Satan and his angels will be on the loose until Satan is imprisoned in Rev 20:1-3 (ESV): Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

That will occur shortly before the MK. Therefore, Satan will be on the loose until then.

A thousand years later, Satan will be released for a little while: Rev 20:7-10 (ESV): And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Didn't you still perceive you are working for the red Dragon, exactly from his TAIL?

If we analyze deeply Scriptures,we will see there is difference between how was the Devil,the old Serpent, in Adam's time, and how he is in this time of Apocalypse. The difference is great. By the way, now, the new name of the Devil is red Dragon. In the time of Adam, the Devil still hadn't 7 HEADS and 10 HORNS, much less his TAIL. It's important detail.

Revelation 12:3-4 ->3 another wonder appeared in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8); behold a great red dragon, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his 7 heads.
4 And his TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven(the TAIL "drew to the Dragon's orbit"), and did cast them to the earth: (through the apostasy)

Satan's body started to develop or take shape in the first century of the Church. As time went on(centuries), Satan's body was growing more and more in the WORLD; in Asia, and Europe, Africa, Oceania (Australia), North America, Central America and South America, his 7 heads geographically.

At the same time, the spirit of Antichrist grew within the Churches of the Lord,as is written in 1John 2:18-20, mainly in the Church of Rome, actually the cradle of Antichrist. From there the TAIL of the red Dragon started to growth in the environment of the 7 heads of the Dragon, i.e. in the world at that time.

Around 95AD, 1st century, the Beast of sea was in the embryo in the belly of the apostate Church of Rome, through Church Satan, the red Dragon, developed exceedingly his satanic body having 7 heads. John saw that in this current time of Apocalypse, the body of the Beast of sea-the Papacy-, whose roots is described in Revelaton 13:2, was complete, having 7 heads, 10 horns, and upon his 10 horns 10 crowns, and upon his 7 heads the name of blasphemy. (Vicarivs Filii Dei)

Furthermore, Israel was banned from their land from 70 to 1948AD, i.e. during 1878 years,this terrible event prevented the manifestation of the false messiah before the current time of Revelation, the development of the 10 horns, from where will rise up the Beast of the earth-Revelation 13:11, it stayed for now in stand by until this current time. This last event will happen from now on.

Get ready


The body of the Beast of sea:
7 heads under a NAME of blasphemy-Vicarivs Filii Dei-;
10 horns with 10 crowns,


The body of the red Dragon- -> (old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan-Re. 12:9);
7 heads with 7 crowns, (the same 7 heads of the Beast of sea-THE PAPACY-the main partner linked to the Dragon);
and 10 horns->(10 tribes of Israel from where rises up the little horn,the FATHER of the Jews-Jo.8:44-as their messiah)
and a TAIL (Isaias 9:15-16)

Revelation 11:15-18

15 ... The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.


Who are fighting for the Kingdom of GOD, and for the Kingdom of the red Dragon? Let's separate the wheat from the tares, the time arrived to reap. Who are a reaper of the Lord, come up here.

 

[keras]

Keras, you’re missing the big picture. The Trib is primarily about converting Israel

This is pure rubbish, believed by the deceived 'rapture to heaven' fools. Them in heaven, while Israel - the Jews, get beaten up.
It is not what the Bible says at all.

Your entire counter argument is 100% false. Do you seek to make Jesus a liar in Rev 3:10?

My entire counter argument blows apart your false beliefs.
Jesus said He would keep His people safe. He will do that by protecting them; NOT by removing them.

You need to read your Bible a lot more; Psalms 23 and 91 tell about His protection and many verses are very specific about the forthcoming disaster by fire we will all experience. Isaiah 43:2, Jeremiah 17:7-8, 2 Thess 1:7, Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

It is unlikely that Jesus made up stories about real entities such as Satan and Abraham when their "real stories" can be told.

So; He was just taking about actual wheat and tares? Jesus did explain that Parable, but we know from many other scriptures what Jesus did after His death and the fact of the dead 'sleeping in their graves'. Acts 13:36
The story of Abraham and the rich man is not and cannot be actual. The dead know nothing - end of story.

The repentant thief will be raised along with everyone who has ever lived, at the GWT Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15
His name will be found in the Book of Life and Eternal life will be given to him then.