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Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

FredVB

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Wrath from God would be on those who are unrepentant, and not in Christ. Would that not be so? But collapse will still come, Mystery Babylon will fall, God's people should come out, they need to do so themselves, God hates the destructiveness to this earth and they should not be involved with any of that.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Wrath from God would be on those who are unrepentant, and not in Christ. Would that not be so? But collapse will still come, Mystery Babylon will fall, God's people should come out, they need to do so themselves, God hates the destructiveness to this earth and they should not be involved with any of that.
This is one of my favorite verses:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

“Those who dwell on the earth” are provably unbelievers. One of the best examples of that is:

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 6:10 (above), who are those crying out? They are new converts in the Trib. They are a product of the 144k who evangelize and save a multitude, in the Trib. In Rev 7, their tremendous achievement is celebrated.

Rev 6:11 makes clear that there will be two groups of martyrs that will make up the GM (great multitude), found in Rev 7:9-17.

The martyrs in Rev 6:10 are the first group of martyrs from seals 2 and 4. There’s devastating carnage in both. The second group (cited as “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11), are found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of these martyrs are resurrected. They appear next in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

It’s definitive that no believers will enter the Trib.
 
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FredVB

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This is one of my favorite verses:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

“Those who dwell on the earth” are provably unbelievers. One of the best examples of that is:

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 6:10 (above), who are those crying out? They are new converts in the Trib. They are a product of the 144k who evangelize and save a multitude, in the Trib. In Rev 7, their tremendous achievement is celebrated.

Rev 6:11 makes clear that there will be two groups of martyrs that will make up the GM (great multitude), found in Rev 7:9-17.

The martyrs in Rev 6:10 are the first group of martyrs from seals 2 and 4. There’s devastating carnage in both. The second group (cited as “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11), are found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of these martyrs are resurrected. They appear next in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

It’s definitive that no believers will enter the Trib.

Yet,

I do not speak to whether believers are in the time of the great tribulations. Believers have gone through tribulation already, through history, and would still be believers going through tribulation. There will be great things happening before the time of what is poured on the earth. Mystery Babylon will fall, that will happen before, God's people still being there must come out from there? Where do they go? There are not other cities to go to. They must settle in country where they can grow things and not contribute the destructiveness to the earth that God is hating, in small groups as community with fellowship they can continue with, away from cities.
 
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WhoIsLikeGod?

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A post-tribulation rapture is clearly evident by the following argument:

"The great tribulation" is mentioned only twice in the entire Bible: Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14. It was also described in Daniel 12 as "a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." The best place to identify the great tribulation as a historical event is the Olivet Discourse, where Matthew, Mark, and Luke provide historical context.

The Olivet Discourse was a single sermon given by Yeshua Hamashiach in 30 AD, recorded into 3 books by 3 different individuals: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Matthew was a tax collector and was one of the twelve disciples of Yeshua. Mark was Barnabas's cousin and was a helper on Paul and Barnabas's first missionary journey. Luke was a physician and the only Gentile to write any part of the New Testament. These three authors recorded the same Olivet Discourse in slightly varying ways. Matthew and Mark are most similar and Luke is slightly different. They recorded the same discourse, however, so their message is the same.

Matthew 24:15–18
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand—then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house. And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak."

Mark 13:14–16
“Now when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be—let the reader understand—then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down, nor go in to get anything out of his house. And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak."

Luke 21:20–22
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled."

The abomination of desolation was the starting point. Jerusalem was surrounded by Rashidun armies from 636–637 AD. When the "abomination of desolation" could be seen, Jews and Christians were commanded to flee to the mountains. The mountains are to the north of Jerusalem in Anatolia (present-day Turkey), a safe haven for Jews and Christians in the 7th century. The area of the map that contrasts with "the mountains" is Saudi Arabia, which is where Islam originated.

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The sight of the abomination of desolation marked the beginning of the great tribulation. Matthew gave the first clue as to the identity of the abomination. He said it was spoken of through Daniel the prophet. Daniel wrote, "and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate (Dan. 9:27b).

That complete destruction hasn't occurred yet. One abomination occurred in 70 AD, when the Roman Prince Titus destroyed the holy place. Another abomination occurred in 615 AD, when the Christian population tore down a partially built Jewish Temple edifice and turned it into a garbage dump. On the wing of these abominations was one who made desolate—the Dome of the Rock—an Islamic shrine located on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, a site also known to Muslims as the al-Haram al-Sharif or the Al-Aqsa Compound. Its initial construction was undertaken by the Umayyad Caliphate on the orders of Abd al-Malik during the Second Fitna in 688–692 AD, and it has since been situated on top of the site of the Second Jewish Temple (built in c. 516 BC to replace the destroyed Solomon’s Temple), which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. It is the world's oldest surviving work of Islamic architecture, the earliest archaeologically attested religious structure to be built by a Muslim ruler. When Yeshua's followers saw this abomination, they were to flee to the mountains—namely Anatolia.

Matthew 24:19–20
"But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Moreover, pray that when you flee, it will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath."

Mark 13:17–18
"But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Moreover, pray that it will not happen in winter."

Luke 21:23a
"Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days;"

The siege of Jerusalem took place from November 636 to April 637 AD. A pregnant woman would have a difficult time traveling. The siege actually did take place during the winter. However, the siege appeared to be bloodless. Instead of relentless assaults on the city, the Muslim troops decided to press on with the siege until the Byzantines ran short of supplies and a bloodless surrender could be negotiated. So when the Byzantines fled, it was in April, which was in the spring. Their prayers were answered.

The abomination of desolation (Dome of the Rock) was the starting point. According to the Olivet Discourse, the great tribulation would follow. But Matthew and Mark differ from Luke in how they describe the same thing: Matthew and Mark use the term "(great) tribulation;" Luke uses "times of the Gentiles."

Matthew 24:21–22
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

Mark 13:19–20
For those days will be such a time of tribulation as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will again. And if the Lord had not shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days."

Luke 21:23b–24
"...for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

This great tribulation was described in Daniel 12, also. There, the great tribulation is given a timeframe, as well.

“'Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. And those who have insight will shine like the glow of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase (Dan. 12:1–4).'”

"Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the stream and the other on that bank of the stream. And someone said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, 'How long will it be until the end of these wonders?' And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish smashing the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed (Dan. 12:5–7)."

They finished smashing the power of the holy people by 1945 at the end of WWII. However, Israel was not made a nation again until 1948. All these events will be completed by 1948: Michael arising; the great tribulation; and the rapture of the church (to be completed before THAT generation passes away, i.e. those born in 1948). A time, times, and half a time is a specific length of time that can be defined by Revelation 12:5–6 and Revelation 12:13–14.

Revelation 12:5–6
"And she gave birth to a Son, a male, who is going to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for 1,260 days."

Revelation 12:13–14
"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time, times, and half a time, away from the presence of the serpent."

These two verses are describing the same event. Therefore, 1,260 days = a time, times, and half a time. This can be supported by substituting 1 year for "a time," 2 years for "times," and 1/2 year for "half a time." Therefore, a time, times, and half a time = 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 year = 3 1/2 years. Multiply by 12 mo./yr. to get 42 months. Multiply by 30 days/mo. to get 1,260 days.

However, Daniel 9:24–27 and Ezekiel 4:1–6 use the day-year principle, where 1 day = 1 prophetic year. The same is true for Daniel 12. Where it says that it would be for a time, times, and half a time before "all these events will be completed," it is really implying that it would be for 1,260 years. What happened in 1948? The Israeli Declaration of Independence. Since Daniel did not have a starting point, he still did not understand, so he said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events (Dan. 12:8)?”

And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. And from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days (Dan. 12:9–11)."

The regular sacrifice was abolished in 30 AD when Yeshua became a sin offering, but really could not be implemented anymore by 70 AD when Herod's Temple was destroyed. The abomination of desolation was set up in 688 AD when Abd al-Malik ordered the construction of the Dome of the Rock. 688 AD + 1,290 years = 1978. The Camp David Accords were a pair of political agreements signed by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on 17 September 1978, following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David, the country retreat of the president of the United States in Maryland. The two framework agreements were signed at the White House and were witnessed by President Jimmy Carter. The second of these frameworks (A Framework for the Conclusion of a Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel) led directly to the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty. Due to the agreement, Sadat and Begin received the shared 1978 Nobel Peace Prize. The first framework (A Framework for Peace in the Middle East), which dealt with the Palestinian territories, was written without participation of the Palestinians and was condemned by the United Nations.

"Blessed is the one who is patient and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will rest and rise for your allotted portion at the end of the age (Dan. 12:12–13).”

688 AD + 1,335 years = 2023. General peace lasted 45 years. An armed conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups has been taking place in the Gaza Strip and Israel since 7 October 2023. It is the fifth war of the Gaza–Israel conflict since 2008, and the most significant military engagement in the region since the Yom Kippur War in 1973. It is the deadliest war for Palestinians in the history of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.

Daniel 12 does not predict the day or hour of the rapture. 2023 was not the year of the rapture; instead it predicted a significant event in the history of Israel.

So the great tribulation lasted 1,260 years. Now remember from earlier, the great tribulation and "the times of the Gentiles" are the same. Therefore, the times of the Gentiles should last 1,260 years.

Luke 21:23b–24
"...for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Revelation 11:1–2
"Then there was given to me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, 'Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.'"

42 months * 30 days/mo. = 1,260 days

1,260 days * 1 year/prophetic day = 1,260 years

The Gentiles trampled Jerusalem for 1,260 years, from 688 to 1948 AD [cf. Dark Ages (AD 476–1440)]. The great tribulation is the same as the times of the Gentiles, and they already took place. The rapture of the church must take place after the great tribulation, since it already happened. I have heard someone say, "The great tribulation will be unmistakeable; it will be a time like no other." Well, look at the history of the Jews from 688 to 1948, not of the whole world; it was the worst it's ever been for the Jews.


The multitude from the tribulation is Gentile (Rev. 7:9–14):

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying,

'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'

"And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,

'Amen, blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might belong to our God forever and ever. Amen.'

"Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, 'These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?' I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'"
 
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FredVB

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This is one of my favorite verses:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

“Those who dwell on the earth” are provably unbelievers. One of the best examples of that is:

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 6:10 (above), who are those crying out? They are new converts in the Trib. They are a product of the 144k who evangelize and save a multitude, in the Trib. In Rev 7, their tremendous achievement is celebrated.

Rev 6:11 makes clear that there will be two groups of martyrs that will make up the GM (great multitude), found in Rev 7:9-17.

The martyrs in Rev 6:10 are the first group of martyrs from seals 2 and 4. There’s devastating carnage in both. The second group (cited as “fellow servants” in Rev 6:11), are found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of these martyrs are resurrected. They appear next in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

It’s definitive that no believers will enter the Trib.

I was not talking about the great tribulation. The beast of prophecy that is often called Antichrist gains the following from all the earth, God's judgements come then with all the unrepented ungodliness there is then. So the collapse comes first, Mystery Babylon is the type for that. Then it is possible for that one who is the beast in prophecy to gain the following of all the world with the promises being made, ungodliness is the cost for it.
Revelation 11:18
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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I was not talking about the great tribulation. The beast of prophecy that is often called Antichrist gains the following from all the earth, God's judgements come then with all the unrepented ungodliness there is then. So the collapse comes first, Mystery Babylon is the type for that. Then it is possible for that one who is the beast in prophecy to gain the following of all the world with the promises being made, ungodliness is the cost for it.
Revelation 11:18.
This world will be at peace immediately before the start of the Trib (the 7-year Tribulation). The state of the world immediately before the Trib is revealed in 1 Th 5:1-3.

The AC starts the Trib that officially begins in Rev 6:1-2. The AC is set in motion for the timeframe from the start of the Trib through Rev 19:20, when the AC is killed.

Rev 19:21 precedes Matt 24:29, the official end of the Trib.

The seal judgments through seal 6 take up all of Rev 6. The 7th seal begins in Rev 8:1.

Rev 7 is an interlude within Rev. We know from Rev 7:16 (famine and scorching heat) that Rev 7 spans from the 4th seal (famine) in Rev 6:8 to the scorching heat in the 4th bowl in Rev 16:8-9.

Rev 7 truly spans most of the Trib from the 4th seal to the 4th bowl (great tribulation). To further validate this, “great tribulation” is cited in Rev 7:14, which is two verses before Rev 7:16 and its scorching heat that is only found in the 4th bowl.

I’m pointing these facts about Rev 7 to simply prove its time range stems from the seals through to the bowls. That is the width and breath of Rev 7. That is why it’s called an interlude because its timeframe does not fit between Rev 6 and Rev 8.

In summation: The AC is put in motion, starting the 7-year Trib, in Rev 6:1-2. The AC is active until he’s killed in Armageddon in Rev 19:20.

The Trib ends in Rev at Rev 19:21. Then, Matt 24:29, the official end to the Trib. Then, the 2A (2nd Advent) In Matt 24:30.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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I was not talking about the great tribulation. The beast of prophecy that is often called Antichrist gains the following from all the earth, God's judgements come then with all the unrepented ungodliness there is then. So the collapse comes first, Mystery Babylon is the type for that. Then it is possible for that one who is the beast in prophecy to gain the following of all the world with the promises being made, ungodliness is the cost for it.
Revelation 11:18
Rev 11:18 is part of the 7th trumpet. Each seal, trumpet and bowl is a judgment. They generally escalate in their wrath. The purpose is to prove that God Almighty does exist and is all-powerful.

The hardcore unbelievers repeatedly refuse to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Rev 11:10 is a good example. The judgments therefore escalate.

It is through all 21 judgments that the AC does his deception, betrayal and ruthless slaughter. The AC starts his deception in the 1st seal.
 
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BobRyan

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SDAs believe in the postTrib rapture where all saints are literally taken to heaven after the tribulation. And before the literal millennium

But I don't think this forum defines that as "post Trib Rapture" for some odd reason.
 
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