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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

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Jeffrey Bowden

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Matthew 24:15-21 is end times. Applies to the Jews. Jews are limited to how far that they are allowed to travel on the sabbath.

Matthew 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

keras, your end times scenario is not plausible. Matthew 24:20 indicates it will be the current nation of Israel.

And the evacuation of hundreds of millions of Christian from your Beulah replacement nation when the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount is not plausible.
My view of Matt 24:14 is when the 2W (Two Witnesses) will start their evangelical ministry. The gentiles go crazy and the abomination occurs in v15. It is then that the fleeing begins in v16.
 
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Douggg

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My view of Matt 24:14 is when the 2W (Two Witnesses) will start their evangelical ministry. The gentiles go crazy and the abomination occurs in v15. It is then that the fleeing begins in v16.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I think Matthew 24:14 a long term (2000 years ) preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to nations.



Olivet Discourse for matthew 24. .jpg



The 1260 days preaching by the two witnesses will be end times in the first half of the 7 years. They are going to show up when the Antichrist person is anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be messiah. The two witnesses are going to be preaching - "no, he is not ! " .

The abomination of desolation will be set up near the end of their 1260 days. And for 75 days the two witnesses will battle the exposed Antichrist thought- to-be messiah, who subsequently becomes the beast-king, and the AoD statue image made of him. The two witnesses battle the beast-king as the Jews flee to the mountains, for 75 days, before he overcomes the two witnesses and kills them.

Which the two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and after 3 1/2 days come back to life and are called up to heaven.



two witnesse first half.jpg
 
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keras

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Why I believe that all of the Lord’s people, every faithful Christian, are gathered, judged and settled in the Land of Israel soon after the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath:
The forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, will be a worldwide catastrophe by a blast from the sun, causing tectonic plate shift, powerful storms and massive tsunamis, so vividly described in over 100 prophesies. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18

This will be a cataclysmic event, killing millions of people, virtually depopulating the entire Mid East. But, some prophecies tell of survivors;
Isaiah 4:3-4 Those who are left in Judah will be called holy
Jeremiah 49:39 Many Iranian people will go as refugees around the world.
Isaiah 21 13-17 the Arabs will meet the fugitives coming down from Jordan with food and water.
Amos 1:13-15 The King of Jordan and his officers will go into exile.

All of the holy Land will be cleansed, giving the opportunity for those called by God to migrate there. Just like America, when people from Europe were motivated to move there and make her a great nation. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107

One of the most important prophecies for this time is Jeremiah 12:14-17 In it the Lord says how the evil neighbours will be uprooted from the Land – also Judah from among them. Then the Lord will have pity and bring Judah back if they learn the ways of My people.
That must be to accept the Lord Jesus as Messiah.

Note that the Lord will not be present at that time:
Jeremiah 30:21 A governor will appear, one of your own, I will bring him near and let him approach Me.
Jeremiah 3:15 I will give you leaders after My own heart. Hosea 1:11

His faithful Christian people will have leaders appointed by the Lord until His Glorious Return, after the 70th week is completed.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I think Matthew 24:14 a long term (2000 years ) preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to nations.



View attachment 346013


The 1260 days preaching by the two witnesses will be end times in the first half of the 7 years. They are going to show up when the Antichrist person is anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be messiah. The two witnesses are going to be preaching - "no, he is not ! " .

The abomination of desolation will be set up near the end of their 1260 days. And for 75 days the two witnesses will battle the exposed Antichrist thought- to-be messiah, who subsequently becomes the beast-king, and the AoD statue image made of him. The two witnesses battle the beast-king as the Jews flee to the mountains, for 75 days, before he overcomes the two witnesses and kills them.

Which the two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and after 3 1/2 days come back to life and are called up to heaven.



View attachment 346015
Rev 11 is an interlude that begins in Rev 10 and ends just before Rev 11:14. The key points that prove the 2W start just before the midpoint are (1) there is no “abyss” or “bottomless pit” that a beast emanates from in the first half; (2) all of the timeframes cited in the Bible of 1260 days, 42 months, etc., all occur in the second half (with overlap). Rev 11:2-3 are great examples of two differently worded timeframes. One theory of mine about why the difference in the wording of those two timeframes is it’s unbelievers who trample in Rev 11:2 (very untrustworthy and undisciplined folks) and the 1260 days are cited for the 2W (very faithful and trustworthy so an exact timeframe will be adhered to). 42 months can end up as 41.5 to 42.4 months rounded to 42 months. However, 1260 days leaves no margin of error. Lastly, there is an abyss that a beast emanates from and conquers a multitude of saints (Rev 13:5-8). That chapter, too, is an interlude. Rev can be tricky with its interludes. But, the timeframes, again, of 1260 days, 42 months, etc., are only found to apply to the second half.
 
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Douggg

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The key points that prove the 2W start just before the midpoint are (1) there is no “abyss” or “bottomless pit” that a beast emanates from in the first half; (2) all of the timeframes cited in the Bible of 1260 days, 42 months, etc., all occur in the second half (with overlap).
From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





the bema seat of Christ 3.jpg
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.

From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032
I won't because it isn't.
You only divide the peoples in that verse to suit your false beliefs.

What the Prophets said will soon set sail, but your ship has never even floated.

Are you so incompetent in your knowledge of what the Bible actually says?
Rev 13:5 makes it plain that the punishment of the followers of the beast is for the 42 months - 3 1/2 years; he is allowed to control the world.
You are wrong about Rev 13:5 and every other verse you cite to attempt to invalidate the pre-Trib rapture.

The saints in the 2nd half are new conversions to Christ, in the Trib. The greatest revival in the Trib starts in the seal judgements, because the 5th seal is the first group of the GM. You keep ignoring the GM. The second half of the GM is “accumulated” from the martyrdom in the 2nd half.

13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land;
From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032

From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032
Do

Here’s Rev 11:2-3 (NIV): 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Matt 24:15-18 (NIV): “So when you see standing in the holy place‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

There’s a whole lotta fleeing going on because there’s whole lotta trampling of the holy city going on.
From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032
When are the 2W appointed
From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I think Matthew 24:14 a long term (2000 years ) preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to nations.



View attachment 346013


The 1260 days preaching by the two witnesses will be end times in the first half of the 7 years. They are going to show up when the Antichrist person is anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be messiah. The two witnesses are going to be preaching - "no, he is not ! " .

The abomination of desolation will be set up near the end of their 1260 days. And for 75 days the two witnesses will battle the exposed Antichrist thought- to-be messiah, who subsequently becomes the beast-king, and the AoD statue image made of him. The two witnesses battle the beast-king as the Jews flee to the mountains, for 75 days, before he overcomes the two witnesses and kills them.

Which the two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and after 3 1/2 days come back to life and are called up to heaven.



View attachment 346015
Rev 11:2-3 are about what happens just before the midpoint.

Matt 24:15-18 (NIV): 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place‘ the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

At the midpoint is when the AC enters the “holy place.” This a victory for the gentiles but a horrific affront to the Jews. The crazy gentiles begin their trampling, and the Jews flee Jerusalem.
 
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Douggg

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Rev 11:2-3 are about what happens just before the midpoint.
Revelation 11:2-3 states two blocks of time.

1. that of Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles for 42 months.

2. that of the two witnesses prophesying and giving testimony for 1260 days.

The 42 months coincides with the beast-king's rule of 42 months after the two witnesses are gone.

At the midpoint is when the AC enters the “holy place.” This a victory for the gentiles but a horrific affront to the Jews. The crazy gentiles begin their trampling, and the Jews flee Jerusalem.
Not at the mid "point" but in the middle part of the 7 years.

The Antichrist commits the ToD act, then is killed for it, and then comes back to life as the beast, and the statue image made of him and placed on the temple mount - 1335 days before Jesus returns.





Events ToD to AoD.jpg
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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From Revelation 12 -

1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in the second heaven, resulting in Satan and his angels cast down to earth, Satan then having only a time/times/half time left.

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + time/times/half time = 2520 days (7 years).

1260 days - Revelation 12:6
unspecified length war in the second heaven time - Revelation 12::7-9
time/times/half time that Satan will have left - Revelation 12:10-17

All of the timeframes of the seven years on a chart....





View attachment 346032
The Bema Seat is also mentioned, in the 2nd half of that chart.

My friend, this is what Paul said about when the Bema Seat will occur: 2 Tim 4:8 (ESV): Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

“On that day,” has every indication of meaning upon the rapture. Please note below how the Bema Seat (Judgment Seat of Christ) includes our rewards:

2 Cor 5:10 (ESV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

The Bema Seat clearly occurs in a context of love.

My friend, many charts exist of the timeline. The one above mistakes Rev 11:3 for a look back, when it’s all about a look forward. Rev 7 is a tricky chapter because of it’s not 100% about an interlude. Rev 7 is an example of a 100% interlude. I mention it because it clearly occurs in the GT (Rev 7:14). So, the numbering of some of the chapters in Rev do not mean their order of occurrence. A key example is Rev 7 does not occur before Rev 11. Rev as a whole is a great challenge to get right. The interludes exponentially increase that challenge.

God bless!
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 11:2-3 states two blocks of time.

1. that of Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles for 42 months.

2. that of the two witnesses prophesying and giving testimony for 1260 days.

The 42 months coincides with the beast-king's rule of 42 months after the two witnesses are gone.


Not at the mid "point" but in the middle part of the 7 years.

The Antichrist commits the ToD act, then is killed for it, and then comes back to life as the beast, and the statue image made of him and placed on the temple mount - 1335 days before Jesus returns.





View attachment 346086
That is true that the AoD does not occur exactly at the midpoint. But, it is so close to it, it’s expressed that way.

This chart below was written by Dr. Andy Woods, the fantastic teacher on the pre-Trib rapture.
 

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Jeffrey Bowden

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This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.

This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.
He doesn’t depart; He descends (1 Th 4:16). That specific word allows for a great variance.

John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Jesus comes back only far enough to meet us in the air (1 Th 4:17). John 14:3 above says, “I will come back and TAKE YOU (emphasis added) to be with me that you also may be where I am.”

Where is Jesus now?
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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I won't because it isn't.
You only divide the peoples in that verse to suit your false beliefs.

What the Prophets said will soon set sail, but your ship has never even floated.

Are you so incompetent in your knowledge of what the Bible actually says?
Rev 13:5 makes it plain that the punishment of the followers of the beast is for the 42 months - 3 1/2 years; he is allowed to control the world.
Those killed in those 42 months are new converts in the Trib. They become the second half of the GM. You do not understand the GM.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 11:2-3 states two blocks of time.

1. that of Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles for 42 months.

2. that of the two witnesses prophesying and giving testimony for 1260 days.

The 42 months coincides with the beast-king's rule of 42 months after the two witnesses are gone.


Not at the mid "point" but in the middle part of the 7 years.

The Antichrist commits the ToD act, then is killed for it, and then comes back to life as the beast, and the statue image made of him and placed on the temple mount - 1335 days before Jesus returns.





View attachment 346086
Okay. We disagree on the 2W
This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.
You are indicating by your claims that you have consulted very erroneous commentaries. Heaven is a physical place.

How “spiritual” are the environs in the following verses? Luke 16:22-23 (ESV): The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
 
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Douggg

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That is true that the AoD does not occur exactly at the midpoint. But, it is so close to it, it’s expressed that way.

This chart below was written by Dr. Andy Woods, the fantastic teacher on the pre-Trib rapture.
The chart is wrong. Some of the Do you have a link to his charts ?
 
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Douggg

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No link; but thanks for the input.
I don't want to leave the impression that I am anti Andy Woods. I think he has many favorable traits and debates with Muslims.

His chart is wrong because the trumpet judgements, the last three for certain, are in the second half, not first half. The last three trumpet judgements are the three woe judgments.

1. the fifth trumpet is the flesh tormenting locust.
2. the sixth trumpet is 1/3 of mankind killed by the huge army of the kings of the east.
3. the seventh trumpet is Satan cast down to earth, having a time, times, half time left - i.e. basically the second half of the seven years.

The fifth and six trumpet woes fit within that time, times, half time.





thrid woe span2b.jpg
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Rev 20:4-5 is crystal clear; ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.

The rest of your post is just your confused and deceived beliefs, that have no scriptural support.
The last sentence in Rev 20:4 (NIV):
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I repeat a recently proven fact: You do not understand the GM.

In 1 Th 4:16, “the dead in Christ” is 100% of the dead in Christ raised as of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 4:17 (NIV); After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In v17, 100% of the living in Christ will be raised to meet Jesus in the clouds, and then to Heaven (if we’re not already in Heaven when meeting Jesus in the air.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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There will be a Trumpet blast when Jesus Returns; 1 Thess 4:16 and after the thousand years is over, the final Trumpet call; for all the dead to rise for Judgment.
You are quoting Scriptures that are part of Acts 1:11 (1 Th 4:16). Acts 1:11 forbids Jesus to be seen by unbelievers in His next return. The next return will therefore be for the pre-Trib rapture.
 
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keras

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In 1 Th 4:16, “the dead in Christ” is 100% of the dead in Christ raised as of the pre-Trib rapture.
Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.
In 1 Th 4:16, “the dead in Christ” is 100% of the dead in Christ raised as of the pre-Trib rapture.
That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.
In v17, 100% of the living in Christ will be raised to meet Jesus in the clouds, and then to Heaven (if we’re not already in Heaven when meeting Jesus in the air.
Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.
Acts 1:11 (1 Th 4:16). Acts 1:11 forbids Jesus to be seen by unbelievers in His next return. The next return will therefore be for the pre-Trib rapture.
They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.
You say I’m wrong. You cite no Scriptures that prove it.

You apparently don’t understand the words “the dead in Christ.” “Those words represent a quantity of 100%. Tell me your reasoning for that not being true.
Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

Rev 20:5 is wholly about dead unbelievers; those who died in sin. It is they who will be judged at the GWTJ.

1 Th 4:16 is about the dead IN Christ and 1 Th 4:17 is about the living IN Christ.

Acts 1:11 forbids Jesus to be seen by unbelievers by the fact that He ascended only in the view of believers. The reverse fulfillment, being Acts 1:11, would require Jesus to descend into the view of believers, only.

1 Th 4:17 proves Jesus will descend only into the view of believers. He is hidden from the view of unbelievers — those who dwell on the earth — by the heavenly clouds cited in v17.

Even we won’t see Jesus until we pass through those same heavenly clouds in v17. Jesus truly is hidden behind clouds during all of the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 3:10 proves 1 Th 4:16-17 occur pre-Trib).
 
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