VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

Return, not rapture :

Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a sweeping whirlwind, coming down onto the heads of the wicked. The Lords anger will not be turned aside, it will accomplish His purposes. In days to come, you will understand.
This is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event. Revelation 6:11-17, 2 Peter 3:7, +

Jeremiah 31:1-6 At that time, I shall be the God of all the families of Israel and they will be My people, a people that have escaped the sword and found favour in the wilderness. From afar God has appeared to Israel. He loves and cares for them and will build them up again. Once again, they will be happy and the Land will be fruitful. They will worship God in Jerusalem.
The great story of the redemption of God’s people, all faithful Christians who will live in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in peace and prosperity. They will build the 3rd Temple and worship again, as in ancient days.

Jeremiah 31:7-9 The Lord says: be joyful for Jacobs sake, sing praises and say- God has saved His people, He has preserved a remnant of Israel. See how He brings them from all parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, women and children. A vast company, they come with weeping and prayer, God will comfort and escort them. He will lead them by streams of water, on smooth paths, for He is the Father to Israel and Ephraim is His eldest son.
The faithful believers, scattered around the world. Ezekiel 36:19, 1 Peter 1:1-2
The remnant-“a vast company”. So, if the remnant could be several million, then it must be that the Israelites are now 100s of millions. NOT just the Jewish people.

Jeremiah 31:39-40 The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honour. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished.

This passage from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will judge the unrighteous, then how His people, every faithful Christian, the Israelites of God, will go to live in the Land that He promised to their [spiritual] forefathers.

God will make a new covenant with them, in order for them to fulfil their destiny to be a light to the nations, and to spread to gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19 – also described in Revelation 7 and 14 as the 144,000.

Many more prophesied events will take place, then, will come the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus, to reign for 1000 years.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 20:4-5 is crystal clear; ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.

The rest of your post is just your confused and deceived beliefs, that have no scriptural support.

1 Th 4:16-17 are about the rapture, not the 2A. Jesus isn’t seen in those verses until verse 17, and not until we pass through heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

Those biblical facts prove those verses have nothing to do with the Trib and 2A.

No verses related to the Trib and 2A can account for what Jesus does next. The explanations are only in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10. We are taken up to Heaven and “the inhabitants of the earth” are left behind.

The pre-Trib rapture is BIBLICALLY prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ. Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17 prove it.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Acts 1:9-11 prove your assertion to be untrue.

 

[keras]

Acts 1:9-11 prove your assertion to be untrue.

What Acts 1(-11 proves is: there will be no rapture to heaven, as His faithful people will see Jesus coming and will go with Him to Jerusalem, where some will be His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10

The Lords faithful, righteous peoples will live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there. It will be like heaven, as God blesses and helps them. Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15, John 11:52

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What Acts 1(-11 proves is: there will be no rapture to heaven, as His faithful people will see Jesus coming and will go with Him to Jerusalem, where some will be His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10

The Lords faithful, righteous peoples will live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there. It will be like heaven, as God blesses and helps them. Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15, John 11:52

Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15 and John 11:52 pertain to “the elect” in Matt 24:31 and their entering the MK. Those verses are a beautiful indulgence in expressing the profound brotherly love for their Jewish brethren in Christ, upon the MK.

You cannot invalidate the two groups Jesus clearly distinguished from each other in Rev 3:10. Rev 4:1 is in the future and it’s also about the pre-Trib rapture. What does Jesus say with His trumpet voice in 1 Th 4:16? The answer is in Rev 4:1, wherein Jesus uses His trumpet voice. We will witness Rev 4-19 from Heaven. We will be part of God’s armies in Rev 19:14.

You cannot invalidate Acts 1:9-11 as being the Scriptural guideline for Jesus’ next return. That is its entire purpose: Acts 1:11 (NIV): “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

1 Th 4:16-17 fit perfectly with the prophetic guideline in Acts 1:11. The pre-Trib rapture is therefore biblically proven to be the next prophesied event in the Bible.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What Acts 1(-11 proves is: there will be no rapture to heaven, as His faithful people will see Jesus coming and will go with Him to Jerusalem, where some will be His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10

The Lords faithful, righteous peoples will live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there. It will be like heaven, as God blesses and helps them. Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15, John 11:52

What Acts 1(-11 proves is: there will be no rapture to heaven, as His faithful people will see Jesus coming and will go with Him to Jerusalem, where some will be His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10

The Lords faithful, righteous peoples will live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there. It will be like heaven, as God blesses and helps them. Isaiah 35, Amos 9:13-15, John 11:52

What Acts 1:9-11 were about was a rapture. Jesus was taken up to Heaven right in front of their eyes.

Jesus was in the view of believers, only. Then a rapture to Heaven took place.

In 1 Th 4:17, we will pass through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Jesus will be in the view of believers, only. The ending is a rapture to Heaven (John 14:3; Rev 3:10; 1 Th 1:10).

 

[keras]

1 Th 4:16-17 fit perfectly with the prophetic guideline in Acts 1:11. The pre-Trib rapture is therefore biblically proven to be the next prophesied event in the Bible.

You are making a doctrine out of nothing.
The Return of Jesus is simply told to us in those two Prophesies. There is nothing about a rapture removal to heaven in them; or anywhere.

Here is a sign for the rapture believers: Sometime soon, you will experience a jammed door, or a stuck screw top. Know then, that the Lord is warning you - there is no easy escape and be ready to stand firm in your faith thru all that happens.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are making a doctrine out of nothing.
The Return of Jesus is simply told to us in those two Prophesies. There is nothing about a rapture removal to heaven in them; or anywhere.

Here is a sign for the rapture believers: Sometime soon, you will experience a jammed door, or a stuck screw top. Know then, that the Lord is warning you - there is no easy escape and be ready to stand firm in your faith thru all that happens.

In Acts 1:9, Jesus ascended in the view of believers, only. He ascended by Himself, behind clouds, and into Heaven.

Acts 1:11 (NIV): “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus will come next in strict adherence to Acts 1:11. Only 1 Th 4:16-17 offer that opportunity. In verse 16, Jesus will descend by Himself. In verse 17, we are taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Jesus descends into the view of believers, only. He is behind clouds in His descent as proven by our not being able to see Him until we pass through heavenly clouds. If we can’t see Him until we pass through heavenly clouds, the world below definitely never sees Him at all.

You can’t prove wrong any detail I have specified. The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

 

[keras]

You can’t prove wrong any detail I have specified. The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

You can't prove yourself right! There simply is no scripture that clearly states people will be raptured to heaven.

Your belief is a rapture when Jesus Returns?
We are assured that Jesus will Return and when He does it isn't to go back to heaven, but to rule the world for the next thousand years.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are making a doctrine out of nothing.
The Return of Jesus is simply told to us in those two Prophesies. There is nothing about a rapture removal to heaven in them; or anywhere.

Here is a sign for the rapture believers: Sometime soon, you will experience a jammed door, or a stuck screw top. Know then, that the Lord is warning you - there is no easy escape and be ready to stand firm in your faith thru all that happens.

You can't prove yourself right! There simply is no scripture that clearly states people will be raptured to heaven.

Your belief is a rapture when Jesus Returns?
We are assured that Jesus will Return and when He does it isn't to go back to heaven, but to rule the world for the next thousand years.

John 14:3 is a rapture to Heaven. You just won’t admit it.

Rev 3:10 only can account for us being in Heaven, since only “those who dwell on the earth” are on Earth.

You can't prove yourself right! There simply is no scripture that clearly states people will be raptured to heaven.

Your belief is a rapture when Jesus Returns?
We are assured that Jesus will Return and when He does it isn't to go back to heaven, but to rule the world for the next thousand years.

My biblical details prove me right.

You have failed to prove me wrong.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You can't prove yourself right! There simply is no scripture that clearly states people will be raptured to heaven.

Your belief is a rapture when Jesus Returns?
We are assured that Jesus will Return and when He does it isn't to go back to heaven, but to rule the world for the next thousand years.

The rapture will occur pre-Trib; Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.

Jesus will make it happen in His next return (Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17).

 

[Logicalpaladin]

1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The last seven words are effected by “the trumpet call of God.” Read the verse above.

The martyrs in Rev 20:4 are the GM.

You can’t deny that Th 4:16 raises ALL the dead in Christ. What you’re missing is the time frame in which that occurs. That occurs at the pre-Trib rapture. The dead in Christ in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 are the GM. They are resurrected in the last sentence Rev 20:4 — in the GT. When you distinguish these two raisings of the dead in Christ, you will have made a fantastic breakthrough. I sincerely hope that for you.

You do not properly explain 1 Th 4:16 because you fail to recognize the validity of the pre-Trib rapture. You can’t deny verse 16 raises the dead in Christ. You miss the timeframe in which that verse is fulfilled.

The Trib occurs after the pre-Trib rapture. The resurrection of the GM occurs in the GT. This is also why the last trump sounds only once, and only at 1 Th 4:16. There’s also no trumpet sound associated with the resurrection of the GM in the last sentence of Rev 20:4.

You said there would be a single sounding of the trumpet and all the resurrections of Christians will take place at that time. So you’re saying that everyone resurrected after that isn’t part of the church? There is no trumpet for them?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The rapture will occur pre-Trib; Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.

Jesus will make it happen in His next return (Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17).

These are the biblical facts: The 2A can’t align with Acts 1:11: Therefore, the Bible proves that the 2A is not the next return of Jesus. That’s not opinion. There will be a 2A; it’s just not the next return of Jesus.

Only 1 Th 4:16-17 (the rapture) align PERFECTLY with Acts 1:11. Therefore, the rapture is the next return of Jesus. This is also not my opinion. Acts 1:11 only aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17.

The rapture goes straight to Heaven: Acts 1:9 proved that. Jesus was last seen by believers, only; Acts 1:9-11 proved that.

In 1 Th 4:17, Jesus will be surrounded by heavenly clouds, and He will be in the view of believers, only. He will be there to fulfill Rev 3:10 and John 14:3. Both those verses have believers end up in Heaven. Those aren’t opinions. They are biblical facts.

The rapture will occur pre-Trib; Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.

Jesus will make it happen in His next return (Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You said there would be a single sounding of the trumpet and all the resurrections of Christians will take place at that time. So you’re saying that everyone resurrected after that isn’t part of the church? There is no trumpet for them?

You said there would be a single sounding of the trumpet and all the resurrections of Christians will take place at that time. So you’re saying that everyone resurrected after that isn’t part of the church? There is no trumpet for them?

No. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 sounds once to raise the dead in Christ, as of that point in time. Then, in verse 17, all living believers are gathered together with the raised dead in Christ, and we pass through clouds and meet Jesus in the air. We are taken to Heaven per John 14:3. All that completes the rapture and all that occurs before the Trib..

In the Trib, there is an enormous revival that creates millions of new converts. They are all killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ. The first new converts to become martyrs are in Rev 6:9-11. Verse 11 also makes clear that those first martyrs must wait for the next group of martyrs to occur. That next group is detailed below.

The next group of martyrs are found in Rev 20::4. The last sentence in that verse is about the resurrection of all those martyrs. That is the next raising of the dead in Christ. There is no trumpet sounded at this resurrection.

Those resurrected martyrs are the GM (Great Multitude) found in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

 

[keras]

John 14:3 is a rapture to Heaven. You just won’t admit it.

But it isn't and you can't admit it, as you are locked into a delusion.

Rev 3:10 only can account for us being in Heaven, since only “those who dwell on the earth” are on Earth.

A reference to everyone, Proved by Luke 21:34-35

My biblical details prove me right.

People with basic Bible knowledge, can see how wrong you are.
You and many others want a rapture to happen; so it must? You are no better than a gambler at Las Vegas.

 

[keras]

You said there would be a single sounding of the trumpet and all the resurrections of Christians will take place at that time. So you’re saying that everyone resurrected after that isn’t part of the church? There is no trumpet for them?

There will be a Trumpet blast when Jesus Returns; 1 Thess 4:16 and after the thousand years is over, the final Trumpet call; for all the dead to rise for Judgment.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But it isn't and you can't admit it, as you are locked into a delusion.

A reference to everyone, Proved by Luke 21:34-35

People with basic Bible knowledge, can see how wrong you are.
You and many others want a rapture to happen; so it must? You are no better than a gambler at Las Vegas.

Rev 3:10 clearly distinguishes between two groups. There’s “you” (we believers) and “those who dwell on the earth,” the unbelievers who are left behind. Jesus thereby makes it known that we will not be on Earth when the Trib starts. We are therefore in Heaven, fullfilling Rev 4:1 and John 14:3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But it isn't and you can't admit it, as you are locked into a delusion.

A reference to everyone, Proved by Luke 21:34-35

People with basic Bible knowledge, can see how wrong you are.
You and many others want a rapture to happen; so it must? You are no better than a gambler at Las Vegas.

Luke 21:35 (NIV): For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Luke also was referring to those left on the face of the earth.

Luke was very meticulous and astute. He accurately restated what Jesus said.

 

[keras]

Rev 3:10 clearly distinguishes between two groups. There’s “you” (we believers) and “those who dwell on the earth,” the unbelievers who are left behind. Jesus thereby makes it known that we will not be on Earth when the Trib starts. We are therefore in Heaven, fullfilling Rev 4:1 and John 14:3.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My Command to stand firm......
This shows the great Test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, will come first. We firstly must prove our faith during the Lords terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Then the Lord will protect those who passed the test, by protecting them during the Great Tribulation, during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. He does this by flying them to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

There is just no indication of a rapture to heaven in Rev 3:10, you have made that up and added to Revelation.

Luke also was referring to those left on the face of the earth.

Luke 21:34 said: all those who live upon the face of the earth.
There is no hint of some people being removed first. Another addition to scripture by you. The Lord in not pleased with those who make His Word mean other than what it plainly says.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There will be a Trumpet blast when Jesus Returns; 1 Thess 4:16 and after the thousand years is over, the final Trumpet call; for all the dead to rise for Judgment.

The 2A occurs at the end of the Trib. Acts 1:9-11 have nothing to do with the 2A.

1 Th 4:16-17 occur before the Trib. Acts 1:9-11 work perfectly with 1 Th 4:16-17.

The pre-Trib rapture works perfectly with Acts 1:9–11.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My Command to stand firm......
This shows the great Test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, will come first. We firstly must prove our faith during the Lords terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Then the Lord will protect those who passed the test, by protecting them during the Great Tribulation, during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. He does this by flying them to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

There is just no indication of a rapture to heaven in Rev 3:10, you have made that up and added to Revelation.

Luke 21:34 said: all those who live upon the face of the earth.
There is no hint of some people being removed first. Another addition to scripture by you. The Lord in not pleased with those who make His Word mean other than what it plainly says.

Peter was speaking to Israelites. In the Trib, the unsaved Israelites are “the elect.” They go through the Trib. Matt 24:22.