VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.

1 Th 4:17 proves Jesus NEVER touches earth. He descends (1 Th 4:16), but, by how much? It doesn’t say how far He goes. You are adding to Scripture; I am going 100% by Scripture.

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus now? It is within 1 Th 4:17 that John 14:3 is fulfilled. Please read all of 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:3. All conditions are met: Jesus comes back for us (1 Th 4:16-17). He raptures us into the clouds (1 Th 4:17) and into Heaven in total fulfillment of John 14:3.

Jesus’ next return is to “come back and take” us into Heaven (John 14:3). He can’t be seen by unbelievers as this is not the 2A. This is all in strict accordance with Acts 1:11.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.

Nope. You are ignoring the wording of John 14:3 (and the three questions about Rev 3:10 that prove we’re in Heaven before the Trib starts).

John 14:3 (NASB): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

Where is Jesus now?

True or false? There are TWO groups cited in Rev 3:10 (NIV): Because YOU have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try THOSE who dwell on the earth.

True or false? The phrase, “those who dwell are on the earth,” is a very demeaning phrase as proven in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

True or false? The “hour of trial” will only TRY THOSE “who dwell on the earth?”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This assertion is nonsensical.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He is Returning to the earth as He Promised He would.

John 14:1-4 does not say anyone goes to heaven. Heaven; our Fathers dwelling place, is a Spiritual place that humans cannot go to. Jesus said so, John 7:34
The idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is false and can never happen.

You’re misunderstanding John 14:3, just as you do Rev 3:10. I posed three questions to help you clear up your misunderstanding of Rev 3:10. You’re also dismissing the clear verbiage in John 14:3, particularly in the NASB version.

 

[Douggg]

When the AoD happens, which will be at the mid point of the 7 years before Jesus Returns, then the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth. As Rev 12:14 says.

keras, how are hundreds of millions of Christians living in Beulah (the new nation in your scenario) going to be taken to "a p;ace of safety on earth" as soon as the AoD takes place?

I seems that Jesus was speaking of two 'fleeings', of the Christians, one at 60 AD, the other yet to happen.
Which is typical of most Prophecy; a little mixed up!

Jesus told them in Luke 21, that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies to flee to the mountains. The population at that time was not that big in 70 AD.

Differently, you have hundreds of millions of Christians living in Beulah at the time the AoD takes place. There are presently approximately 2.5 billion Christians in the world.

For comparison, the current population of Israel, all faiths, is 9.5 million.

 

[keras]

Where is Jesus now?

In heaven, waiting for the right time to Return in glory for His Millennial reign.

True or false? There are TWO groups cited in Rev 3:10 (NIV): Because YOU have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try THOSE who dwell on the earth.

False. It refers to everyone on earth, but the people who do keep their faith during the hour of trial, will be kept from the Great Trib.
hour of trial; will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Great Tribulation; will be the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.

The phrase, “those who dwell are on the earth,” is a very demeaning phrase

That is just your idea and is false, made to suit the false theory of the rapture. We all dwell on the earth.

True or false? The “hour of trial” will only TRY THOSE “who dwell on the earth?”

True, as it will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35

 

[keras]

how are hundreds of millions of Christians living in Beulah (the new nation in your scenario) going to be taken to "a p;ace of safety on earth" as soon as the AoD takes place?

The answer to this is in Revelation 12:14. On the wings of the great eagle, must be American aircraft.
Any other suggestions? Or do you just reject what the Bible says because you don't like it.

Jesus told them in Luke 21, that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies to flee to the mountains. The population at that time was not that big in 70 AD.

Those Jewish Christians who fled to Pella, may have only been a hundred or so. Enough to keep the faith alive and eventually spread around the world.

you have hundreds of millions of Christians living in Beulah at the time the AoD takes place. There are presently approximately 2.5 billion Christians in the world.

There may be a million of the faithful Christian peoples, who will become citizens of Beulah.
Will you prove your faith; as disaster strikes and billions die? I pray you will, but very many will not and will get burned up, as Jesus wields His winnowing fork. Matthew 3:12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In heaven, waiting for the right time to Return in glory for His Millennial reign.

False. It refers to everyone on earth, but the people who do keep their faith during the hour of trial, will be kept from the Great Trib.
hour of trial; will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Great Tribulation; will be the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.

That is just your idea and is false, made to suit the false theory of the rapture. We all dwell on the earth.

True, as it will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35

Keras, in Rev 3:10, you are not distinguishing between the two obvious and separately-cited groups: “you” and “those.” You cannot grammatically conjugate those two words as referring to the same group.

“You” are we, the believers. 1 Th 4:17 (NIV) says “we will be with the Lord forever.” You’re not factoring in Acts 1:11. Jesus must remain in the view of believers, only, until the relevant prophecies are fulfilled. This clearly involves the fulfillment of John 14:3. Therefore, Jesus raptures us to Heaven. He returns in all His glory for all matters related to the 2A, seven years later.

 

[Douggg]

There may be a million of the faithful Christian peoples, who will become citizens of Beulah

What ? Of the 2.5 billion Christians of the world, only a million are faithful to Christ ?

The answer to this is in Revelation 12:14. On the wings of the great eagle, must be American aircraft.
Any other suggestions? Or do you just reject what the Bible says because you don't like it.

It is your scenario, not mine, to make plausible. First of all, you have no basis for the number of Christians that move to the land of Israel, following a solar event that you are predicting to depopulate the current nation of Israel. There are 2.5 billion Christians in the world.

Why would you think the beast would just let the population of Beulah get on airlines for a mass evacuation to escape his control ?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In heaven, waiting for the right time to Return in glory for His Millennial reign.

False. It refers to everyone on earth, but the people who do keep their faith during the hour of trial, will be kept from the Great Trib.
hour of trial; will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Great Tribulation; will be the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.

That is just your idea and is false, made to suit the false theory of the rapture. We all dwell on the earth.

True, as it will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib.

In Luke 21:34-35, Luke is warning his brethren, lest they descend into lifestyles of sin: drunkenness, etc.

Rev 6 is only about the seal judgments. They are horrific forms of God’s wrath. But, the trumpet and bowl judgments are exponentially worse.

All of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ are raptured pre-Trib. What percentages are represented of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ in 1 Th 4:16-17, below?

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[keras]

, in Rev 3:10, you are not distinguishing between the two obvious and separately-cited groups: “you” and “those.” You cannot grammatically conjugate those two words as referring to the same group.

I can and I do say that Rev 3:10 refers to those people who stayed faithful during the forthcoming sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Rev 6:12-17
THEY will be kept out of the Great Tribulation, of the Lords punishment against those who have taken the mark or the beast.

“You” are we, the believers. 1 Th 4:17 (NIV) says “we will be with the Lord forever.”

Right; but what you don't factor in, is the believers must pass thru a fiery test first. As 1 Peter 4:12 plainly states.
They will be with the Lord forever, for the Millennium and then Eternity. ALL on that earth, the place we never leave.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib.

Obviously wrong. It refers to the 1 Day event of the Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

You show your confusion and error by saying the GT will be 7 years. It has to be 3 1/2 years.

All of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ are raptured pre-Trib

Only believed by the simple minded and deceived.
As much as you and many others may want the Lord to rapture you, it isn't going to happen, as it isn't Prophesied and we are told all about God's plans for our future; on earth.

 

[keras]

What ? Of the 2.5 billion Christians of the world, only a million are faithful to Christ ?

Think Douggg!
How many Churchgoers are just pew warmers? How many are secret sinners, how many are Mary worshippers, but the main thing which will find out who is a true believer and who trusts the Lord for their protection, will be the Sixth Seal - the sudden and shocking disaster, when many will renounce God because He allowed them to stay and face His fiery wrath.
Possibly several million, but certainly not all who like to call themselves Christians.

Why would you think the beast would just let the population of Beulah get on airlines for a mass evacuation to escape his control ?

The question I ask you is: Why do you deny God's Word? Revelation 12:14

You want a rapture; this is it, by conventional means and to a place in earth, believe this!!!

 

[Douggg]

The question I ask you is: Why do you deny God's Word? Revelation 12:14

You want a rapture; this is it, by conventional means and to a place in earth, believe this!!!

Revelation 12:14 will be the fulfillment of Jesus's instructions in Matthew 24-15-21 for the Jews to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place.

Think Douggg!
How many Churchgoers are just pew warmers? How many are secret sinners, how many are Mary worshippers, but the main thing which will find out who is a true believer and who trusts the Lord for their protection, will be the Sixth Seal - the sudden and shocking disaster, when many will renounce God because He allowed them to stay and face His fiery wrath.
Possibly several million, but certainly not all who like to call themselves Christians.

If only 10% of the current Christian population moved to the land of Israel, that would be 250 million. How many plane flights would that take to evacuate 250 million Christians to another part of the world ?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I can and I do say that Rev 3:10 refers to those people who stayed faithful during the forthcoming sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Rev 6:12-17
THEY will be kept out of the Great Tribulation, of the Lords punishment against those who have taken the mark or the beast.

Right; but what you don't factor in, is the believers must pass thru a fiery test first. As 1 Peter 4:12 plainly states.
They will be with the Lord forever, for the Millennium and then Eternity. ALL on that earth, the place we never leave.

Obviously wrong. It refers to the 1 Day event of the Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

You show your confusion and error by saying the GT will be 7 years. It has to be 3 1/2 years.

Only believed by the simple minded and deceived.
As much as you and many others may want the Lord to rapture you, it isn't going to happen, as it isn't Prophesied and we are told all about God's plans for our future; on earth.

Peter 4:12 is about the current trials he and his felllow brethren were going through. It has no prophetic relationship to the 7-year Trib.

The hour of trial cited by Jesus in Rev 3:10 is the 7-year Trib. “You” was the chosen reference to all living in Christ. By contrast, “Those who dwell on the earth” was a reference only about the unbelievers who will be left behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event to occur. There are NO circumstances once the Trib starts, that will align with Acts 1:11. Only 1 Th 4:16-17 align FLAWLESSLY, and all their circumstances only align in a pre-Trib context. Jesus returns completely hidden from view by unbelievers, during the rapture, by heavenly clouds (1 Th 4:17). We are raptured to Heaven, where the Judgment Seat of Christ will take place, and our being shown our new homes.

You throw personal barbs when you can’t prove me wrong. Thank you!

 

[keras]

Revelation 12:14 will be the fulfillment of Jesus's instructions in Matthew 24-15-21 for the Jews to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place.

No it won't, as the Jews fled when they saw Jerusalem encompassed by the Roman armies. Past history. But the AoD is yet to come and then, those who have proved themselves by keeping their faith, will be transported to a distant place of safety for the exact 1260 day period of the GT.

If only 10% of the current Christian population moved to the land of Israel, that would be 250 million. How many plane flights would that take to evacuate 250 million Christians to another part of the world ?

Still in denial of God's Word, I see.

 

[keras]

Peter 4:12 is about the current trials he and his felllow brethren were going through

Peter and his fellow brethren never experienced fiery trials. They were persecuted, but 1 Peter 4:12, is plainly a Prophecy for us, in the end times.

The hour of trial cited by Jesus in Rev 3:10 is the 7-year Trib. “You” was the chosen reference to all living in Christ. By contrast, “Those who dwell on the earth” was a reference only about the unbelievers who will be left behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event to occur. There are NO circumstances once the Trib starts, that will align with Acts 1:11. Only 1 Th 4:16-17 align FLAWLESSLY, and all their circumstances only align in a pre-Trib context. Jesus returns completely hidden from view by unbelievers, during the rapture, by heavenly clouds (1 Th 4:17). We are raptured to Heaven, where the Judgment Seat of Christ will take place, and our being shown our new homes.

All this spiel is a fanciful dream of the deceived and confused.
Nowhere does the Bible say anyone goes to live in heaven.

Jesus Promises immortality, John 3:16, but does not say when. We get that info from Revelation 20:11-15; AFTER the Millennium.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No it won't, as the Jews fled when they saw Jerusalem encompassed by the Roman armies. Past history. But the AoD is yet to come and then, those who have proved themselves by keeping their faith, will be transported to a distant place of safety for the exact 1260 day period of the GT.

Still in denial of God's Word, I see.

Keras, YOU are the one denying God’s words. You won’t admit that “you” in Rev 3:10 is about us believers, and that “those” are about unbelievers left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib. There are NO circumstances in the Trib or 2A and beyond to the GWTJ, that match Acts 1:11. Only 1 Th 4:16-17 match Acts 1:11. The rapture (1 Th 4:16-17) will occur pre-Trib, in strict accordance with Acts1:11. Your ship has sunk.

 

[Douggg]

No it won't, as the Jews fled when they saw Jerusalem encompassed by the Roman armies. Past history.

Matthew 24:15-21 is end times. Applies to the Jews. Jews are limited to how far that they are allowed to travel on the sabbath.

Matthew 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Still in denial of God's Word, I see.

keras, your end times scenario is not plausible. Matthew 24:20 indicates it will be the current nation of Israel.

And the evacuation of hundreds of millions of Christian from your Beulah replacement nation when the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount is not plausible.

 

[keras]

YOU are the one denying God’s words. You won’t admit that “you” in Rev 3:10 is about us believers, and that “those” are about unbelievers left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

I won't because it isn't.
You only divide the peoples in that verse to suit your false beliefs.

Your ship has sunk

What the Prophets said will soon set sail, but your ship has never even floated.

The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib

Are you so incompetent in your knowledge of what the Bible actually says?
Rev 13:5 makes it plain that the punishment of the followers of the beast is for the 42 months - 3 1/2 years; he is allowed to control the world.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I won't because it isn't.
You only divide the peoples in that verse to suit your false beliefs.

What the Prophets said will soon set sail, but your ship has never even floated.

Are you so incompetent in your knowledge of what the Bible actually says?
Rev 13:5 makes it plain that the punishment of the followers of the beast is for the 42 months - 3 1/2 years; he is allowed to control the world.

You don’t recognize that the martyrs in Rev 20:4 are the second group of the GM. The first group is in Rev 6:9-11.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I won't because it isn't.
You only divide the peoples in that verse to suit your false beliefs.

What the Prophets said will soon set sail, but your ship has never even floated.

Are you so incompetent in your knowledge of what the Bible actually says?
Rev 13:5 makes it plain that the punishment of the followers of the beast is for the 42 months - 3 1/2 years; he is allowed to control the world.

You don’t see the truth in my description of Rev 3:10. Jesus said “You” only to the believers, who were present with Him. Jesus used “those who dwell on the earth” to describe the unbelievers to be left behind on earth.

John 14:3 is about Jesus coming back to gather and take is to Heaven.