Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[sovereigngrace]

Sure. John is clearly told in Rev. 4: 1, "“Come up here, and I will show you the things which must take place after these things.” After what things? The Church Age of Revelation 2-3.

So everything in Revelation 12 speaks of events to take place in the End Times. NOT "things" prior to the Church Age's beginning, which is how you try to interpret the Manchild.

Your interpretation denies the heavenly testimony of the one speaking to John in Rev. 4.

The Manchild is the elect group of whom Jesus prophesied in Rev. 2:26-27:

2;26 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ —
as I also have received from My Father.

12:5 She bore a Manchild who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

14. Revelation 12 Explains all of the essential elements of Revelation 12, including the Woman, the Manchild, the time in history, and the 1260 days. Revelation 12

• Where is a future rapture mentioned in Revelation 4:1?
• Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 4:1?

 

[sovereigngrace]

There are some very good things in this post. I would like to highlight the good points when I go over it.
Some people will see I hope that the good points, the Christ centered and Christ's work points do not have to
mean there is no millennial kingdom.

The dichotomy established Ie. "Because of these wonderful things done by the Lord Jesus is VERSES any millennial kingdom" does not
necessarily have to follow.

The points concerning the effective work of Christ and our need to stand upon Him and His finished work
is agreed to basically. It just doesn't ipso facto mean "No thousand year future period."

Revelation 20 has been fulfilled since the victorious earthly ministry of Christ. Satan was bound to facilitate the great commission. He will be released before the second coming, where there will doubtless be a subjugation of the global spread of the Gospel.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Where is a future rapture mentioned in Revelation 4:1?

The results of that rapture are mentioned in Revelation 7:9-14 -- "“These are the ones having come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14)

Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 4:1?

"THE Church" is not a term ever mentioned in the whole book. Only individual church congregations are mentioned. This argument is a red herring.

The Church Age of chapters 2-3 conclude in the "apostasia/apostasy" foretold in 2 Thes. 2, which apostasy is preceded by the lukewarm and fallen Laodicean era. Both of which precede the Parousia of Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The results of that rapture are mentioned in Revelation 7:9-14 -- "“These are the ones having come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14)

"THE Church" is not a term ever mentioned in the whole book. Only individual church congregations are mentioned. This argument is a red herring.

The Church Age of chapters 2-3 conclude in the "apostasia/apostasy" foretold in 2 Thes. 2, which apostasy is preceded by the lukewarm and fallen Laodicean era. Both of which precede the Parousia of Christ.

So, there is no Church being raptured in Rev 4? Just like I thought. That is a Pretrib invention to support their invention of 2 future coming You have nothing in Revelation. It is a Jesuit doctrine.

 

[WilliamLhk]

So, there is no Church being raptured in Rev 4?

Correct. John only is being taken up in the vision: the verbs and pronouns are all singular in 4:1.

There is no mention of the "great multitude" of the saints of chapter 7.

Just like I thought. That is a Pretrib invention to support their invention of 2 future coming.

You have nothing in Revelation. It is a Jesuit doctrine.

Please state this less ambiguously??

 

[oikonomia]

Revelation 20 has been fulfilled since the victorious earthly ministry of Christ. Satan was bound to facilitate the great commission. We will be released before the second coming, where there will doubtless be a subjugation of the global spread of the Gospel.

We will be released from what?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Correct. John only is being taken up in the vision: the verbs and pronouns are all singular in 4:1.

There is no mention of the "great multitude" of the saints of chapter 7.



Please state this less ambiguously??

I will try. LOL.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We will be released from what?

Typo. Please reread.

 

[oikonomia]

Ephesians 4:17-20 tells us: “that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

This exhortation is an OUGHT. Ie. We OUGHT not walk as those alienated from the life of God. We OUGHT not walk any longer
in the vanity of the fallen mind. We have now the divine life of God within us. We ought to set our mind on the Spirit in our spirit
that our mind may be renewed. This is an exhortation to henceforth walk in and by the divine life imparted into us.

Who is it that deceives mankind?

Of course Satan is the one who deceives the whole world.
. . . he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; (Rev. 12:9b)

Who is He that enlightens mankind?

Of course Jesus Christ is the light that shines in the darkness which cannot overcome Him,
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. (John1:4,5)

2 Corinthians 4:4 confirms that “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” and 2 Timothy 2:26 explains how they are “taken captive by him at his will.”

Ignorance in Scripture is always linked to lack of knowledge of the Word of God. Satan knows he cannot negate, refute, or resist one word in God’s Word. That is because it is the truth. But his obsessive aim is to keep men from this Book. His primary objective is to prevent people from encountering the Gospel, understanding the message, and consequently seeing Christ as their Savior and Lord. The evil one knows darkness is simply the absence of light. If he can keep sinners in darkness, men will remain ignorant, deceived, blind, and bound in spiritual chains.

All true.

When we go back to the very beginning, in Genesis 3, Adam had perfect union and communion with God. There were no barriers between him and God. This was God’s plan for mankind. That continued unabated until Satan appeared.

There is somthing critical that Adam did not have. That is God living within him. This he would have had if he had eaten of
"the tree of life". Adam was created very good, innocent, and neutral between two sources - the life of God signified in
"the tree of life" and the corruption of Satan leading in sin and death in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

These two sources were mutually exclusive. He was in the middle neutral positioned to CHOOSE which source he would
take into him as food.

Yes, Adam was in communion with God. But Adam was not in a life union with God. That opportunity was closed off to
him once he was joined to Satan through eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
When he moved from his neutral position to the side of being joined to Satan the tree of life was cut off from him.
That is the life of God he was now alienated from, estranged from.

And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever — . . .
So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22,24)

Just by reading Genesis we could not clearly see that the tree of life taken in was food represented the taking in of the uncreated and divine life of God that man and God could be in an "organic" union. What does it look like for man and God to be in an organic union?
It looks like the Son of God who was to come- Jesus Christ. In other words . . . Jesus Christ is what God meant by human being.

And a corporate, collective, Body Christ God's original purpose, is what God finally obtains at the end of the Bible - New Jerusalem.

While spiritual deception emanates from the devil, spiritual enlightenment is sourced in Jesus Christ. Christ is the remedy to every spiritual need in a human being. He is the antidote to the ignorance, deception, imprisonment, blindness, and darkness. He is the answer to the spiritual problem.

Jesus testified in John 8:12: “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Jesus testified in John 12:46: "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”

We thank God for this. This is something we totally agree on.
Man, out of the creative hand of God though was not in union with God.
Man did have a clear channel of fellowship to hear God and God him.

But Adam was neutral, good, and with a free will to choose what he would take into him.
He moved from his neutral position of innocence and aligned himself with Satan.
The rest of the Bible is about God doing so much to save man and bring him back to divine life getting into his being
through Jesus Christ the Savior.

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

The Triune God embodied in the Redeemer Christ died and rose and transfigured Himself also
into "a life giving Spirit" for the dispensing of the life of God into the redeemed.

Today the tree of life for us is Christ who became the life giving Spirit to head a new humanity of God-men.
These are in union with God in life and nature.

And now I touch something of the church and the millennial kingdom. There is the receiving of divine life in Christ.
And there is the cooperating to walk and live by Christ. This is to cooperate with His purpose, to live, walk, behave, ever learn to
react in the enjoyment of Christ as God's life within us. This is the normal Christian life and the normal church life.

The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients
of God's life who went on to live by Him. No matter how you would like to view it, there is a period of reward before the
age of eternity. Not all will be equally rewarded because not all used the age of grace, the church age, to allow that
life of God to fill them up, build them up, grow in them, spread and permeate their souls.

It is inevitable that we ALL will arrive. But there is reward for arriving in the alloted time voluntarily, wisely, prudently.
This bedrock verse (with many others) teaches that there are the SAVED and REWARDED and the SAVED yet SUFFER LOSS -NOT REWARDED.

For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

The work is the allowing Christ to grow within making the saved one suitable material for the building
of God's living temple. The work is really letting the Triune God work Himself into the fabric of our being
building us up into His holy temple. This is not a temple of stone. It is a temple of transformed people.
The only foundation is Christ Himself laid by the apostles.

One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss
to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ.

The Old Testament

For many centuries Yahweh was ethnic Israel's God. He was God of the Hebrew people. After the First Advent, He was God of the nations. The Gospel opportunity widened to embrace the darkened Gentiles.

Yes and Amen.

This was not the case prior to Calvary, with the special exception of Nineveh. The Gospel expanse has gone from "the nation" (singular) before the cross to "the nations" (plural) after the cross. The nations now contain God's chosen people, not simply the nation!

In the Old Testament, God governed Israel in a theocracy, Satan, on the other hand, ruled the nations. The Gentiles were overwhelmingly ignorant to God’s truth and outside of His covenant favor. They were spiritually deceived. They were bound in paganism and blinded by idolatry. They sat in spiritual darkness. Only one single Gentile village/town/city experienced salvation that we know of. The world in general was deceived, not knowing anything about the grace of God or His merciful way of salvation.

Surely we have to qualify this somewhat. The theocratic nation at times sunk so low that God said they had actually become worse
than the surrounding nations. What OUGHT to have been was not always what TYPICALLY happened. But neither in OT times or
NT times can our God be defeated.

This is why there is something we call the overcomers. Maybe the word "overcomer" cannot be located per se.
But we do have the phrase "more than conquerors". If we do not nullify the grace of God we should be "more than conquerors".
And there is the repeated call for some amid the degradation to overcome.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”

But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers

Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:35-39)

The potential to overcome to be an overcomer is there before everyone of us who are saints.
Do not shrink back at the thought of overcoming.
It may involve overcoming unforgiveness.
It may involve overcoming the loss of our first love for Christ.
In may involve overcoming severe persecution.
It may involve overcoming wasting our time on worldly things rather than pursuing the Lord.

Note: In the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2,3 each church received a call
for some to overcome. They were not all called to overcome the same situation. But they were
all called to overcome something. In one case it was simply to not loose the crown already possessed.

The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH
of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints.

Note: Eventually every person who has received the life of God however they received it will
be an overcomer in the eternal age. This is proved in the climax of Revelation 21,22 after the millennium.

And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely.
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:6,7)

 

[sovereigngrace]

This exhortation is an OUGHT. Ie. We OUGHT not walk as those alienated from the life of God. We OUGHT not walk any longer
in the vanity of the fallen mind. We have now the divine life of God within us. We ought to set our mind on the Spirit in our spirit
that our mind may be renewed. This is an exhortation to henceforth walk in and by the divine life imparted into us.

Of course Satan is the one who deceives the whole world.
. . . he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; (Rev. 12:9b)

Of course Jesus Christ is the light that shines in the darkness which cannot overcome Him,
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. (John1:4,5)

All true.

There is somthing critical that Adam did not have. That is God living within him. This he would have had if he had eaten of
"the tree of life". Adam was created very good, innocent, and neutral between two sources - the life of God signified in
"the tree of life" and the corruption of Satan leading in sin and death in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

These two sources were mutually exclusive. He was in the middle neutral positioned to CHOOSE which source he would
take into him as food.

Yes, Adam was in communion with God. But Adam was not in a life union with God. That opportunity was closed off to
him once he was joined to Satan through eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
When he moved from his neutral position to the side of being joined to Satan the tree of life was cut off from him.
That is the life of God he was now alienated from, estranged from.

And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever — . . .
So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22,24)

Just by reading Genesis we could not clearly see that the tree of life taken in was food represented the taking in of the uncreated and divine life of God that man and God could be in an "organic" union. What does it look like for man and God to be in an organic union?
It looks like the Son of God who was to come- Jesus Christ. In other words . . . Jesus Christ is what God meant by human being.

And a corporate, collective, Body Christ God's original purpose, is what God finally obtains at the end of the Bible - New Jerusalem.


We thank God for this. This is something we totally agree on.
Man, out of the creative hand of God though was not in union with God.
Man did have a clear channel of fellowship to hear God and God him.

But Adam was neutral, good, and with a free will to choose what he would take into him.
He moved from his neutral position of innocence and aligned himself with Satan.
The rest of the Bible is about God doing so much to save man and bring him back to divine life getting into his being
through Jesus Christ the Savior.

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

The Triune God embodied in the Redeemer Christ died and rose and transfigured Himself also
into "a life giving Spirit" for the dispensing of the life of God into the redeemed.

Today the tree of life for us is Christ who became the life giving Spirit to head a new humanity of God-men.
These are in union with God in life and nature.

And now I touch something of the church and the millennial kingdom. There is the receiving of divine life in Christ.
And there is the cooperating to walk and live by Christ. This is to cooperate with His purpose, to live, walk, behave, ever learn to
react in the enjoyment of Christ as God's life within us. This is the normal Christian life and the normal church life.

The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients
of God's life who went on to live by Him. No matter how you would like to view it, there is a period of reward before the
age of eternity. Not all will be equally rewarded because not all used the age of grace, the church age, to allow that
life of God to fill them up, build them up, grow in them, spread and permeate their souls.

It is inevitable that we ALL will arrive. But there is reward for arriving in the alloted time voluntarily, wisely, prudently.
This bedrock verse (with many others) teaches that there are the SAVED and REWARDED and the SAVED yet SUFFER LOSS -NOT REWARDED.

For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

The work is the allowing Christ to grow within making the saved one suitable material for the building
of God's living temple. The work is really letting the Triune God work Himself into the fabric of our being
building us up into His holy temple. This is not a temple of stone. It is a temple of transformed people.
The only foundation is Christ Himself laid by the apostles.

One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss
to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ.


Yes and Amen.

Surely we have to qualify this somewhat. The theocratic nation at times sunk so low that God said they had actually become worse
than the surrounding nations. What OUGHT to have been was not always what TYPICALLY happened. But neither in OT times or
NT times can our God be defeated.

This is why there is something we call the overcomers. Maybe the word "overcomer" cannot be located per se.
But we do have the phrase "more than conquerors". If we do not nullify the grace of God we should be "more than conquerors".
And there is the repeated call for some amid the degradation to overcome.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
As it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.”

But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers

Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:35-39)

The potential to overcome to be an overcomer is there before everyone of us who are saints.
Do not shrink back at the thought of overcoming.
It may involve overcoming unforgiveness.
It may involve overcoming the loss of our first love for Christ.
In may involve overcoming severe persecution.
It may involve overcoming wasting our time on worldly things rather than pursuing the Lord.

Note: In the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2,3 each church received a call
for some to overcome. They were not all called to overcome the same situation. But they were
all called to overcome something. In one case it was simply to not loose the crown already possessed.

The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH
of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints.

Note: Eventually every person who has received the life of God however they received it will
be an overcomer in the eternal age. This is proved in the climax of Revelation 21,22 after the millennium.

And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely.
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:6,7)

You are totally avoiding every single request for biblical evidence. That is because you do not have it. You are simply expressing your own private opinions.

1. Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed” (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?
3. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”?
4. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”?
5. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”?
6. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients of God's life who went on to live by Him"?
7. Show us in Revelation 20 where it teaches that “The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints”?
8. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that “One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ”?

This is not in the Book, and you know it.

 

[oikonomia]

You are totally avoiding every single request for biblical evidence. That is because you do not have it. You are simply expressing your own private opinions.

I think you are grandstanding as if it is SO obvious that A-millennialism is some invincible interpretation.
Maybe somebody here is impressed with your grandiose confidence. I'm not.

So just keep repeating questions as if the points have not been addressed.
I'd like to hear from someone else on the matter.

And could you not spam so much from your other forums.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think you are grandstanding as if it is SO obvious that A-millennialism is some invincible interpretation.
Maybe somebody here is impressed with your grandiose confidence. I'm not.

So just keep repeating questions as if the points have not been addressed.
I'd like to hear from someone else on the matter.

And could you not spaming so much from your other forums.

You are the one making all these extra-biblical statments. You are the one that cannot support your own claims. If you had evidence you would be happy to provide it. It is obvious you do not have it.

 

[oikonomia]

Correct. John only is being taken up in the vision: the verbs and pronouns are all singular in 4:1.

WilliamLhk sovereigngrace is just repeating questions that have been addressed.
I would like rather to converse with you about these questions but briefly.
Please tell me if they make sense to you. This will have to be concise, brief, not covering every related issue.

1. Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?

After the second coming of Christ He tells some "sheep" nations to enter into the kingdom prepared for them from
the foundation of the world.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 25:34)
This is not heaven they enter into. This is the earth as it was originally intended. Thus it is a restoral of Adam's environment.
This is a brief basis for believing sparred nations who are not Christians are transferred from the great tribulation time
into the millennial kingdom of a nicely restored earth as God prepared for Adam and his descendents HAD nothing else had
gone wrong.

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed” (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?

The ground to believe that not all of God's regenerated people will be ready for the reward of this time (therefore needing more transformation) is based on many passages. Chief among them is the fact that there are SAVED people who receive a reward and
SAVED people who will suffer loss, not ready to receive such a reward. This determination will be decided by Christ at His judgment
seat for HIS saved saints.
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”? When we put together the mention of one thousand years mentioned six times (Rev. 20:2,3,4,5,6,7) with the some saved needing to be disciplined (1 Cor. 3:13-15) it is completely reasonable that this time is ALSO a remedial time for Christ to deal with difficient children. Why would God forever leave them in an ill-suitable and not fully conformed situation? His covenant requires their eventual maturity.
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”? Both the parable of the pounds and the talents show servants of the Lord are rewarded and servants of the Lord will be disciplined. And some rather strongly. This agrees with the plain teaching of SAVED believers suffering loss. Some God's hands are tied and He cannot further perfect those needing perfection after the second coming. Or they imagine that the disciplined servants are either false Christians (Calvinism) or believers who lose eternal life (Arminianism). THat is all the time I have for this post now. The changing of the bullet numbers is a technical glitch I might be able to fix latter.

 

[oikonomia]

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”? It is obvious that discipline, further work, adjustment, etc, must take place not in eternity but in the thousand years. For example in Matthew 25:1-12 the foolish virgins are away paying a price to obtain the extra oil that they should have had when the bridegroom arrived. The time they pay the price for this is during the celebration which they missed. The celebration commenced when the bridegroom arrived and unlike the wise virgins they were ill-prepared. Oil is throughout the Bible is a symbol of the Spirit of God. They ALL had oil. The wise had extra oil in their vessels in addition to their lamps. The foolish had the minimum amount. The wise were prudent to have extra amount. The missing of the celebration is not eternal perdition but suffering of loss rather than being rewarded during the millennium
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”? Since I never wrote such a thing there is no reason to explain what I never taught. No Christian's suffering of loss is eternal. It is temporary lasting either all or some portion of the millennium as the Lord deems appropriate.
3. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients of God's life who went on to live by Him"? Since the word of God says when the thousand years are completed all the enemies of God are in the lake of fire including death and Hades it follows that Revelation 21,22 discribes the things following the millennium. And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev. 20:7) And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (v. 10) And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (v.15) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (21:1)
4. Show us in Revelation 20 where it teaches that “The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints”? And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut. (Matt. 25:10) All saints from every age are eventually virgins to Christ, from all history.
5. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that “One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ”? The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it,because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
   If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
   
   If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor.1:13-15)

 

[sovereigngrace]

WilliamLhk sovereigngrace is just repeating questions that have been addressed.
I would like rather to converse with you about these questions but briefly.
Please tell me if they make sense to you. This will have to be concise, brief, not covering every related issue.

1. Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?

After the second coming of Christ He tells some "sheep" nations to enter into the kingdom prepared for them from
the foundation of the world.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 25:34)
This is not heaven they enter into. This is the earth as it was originally intended. Thus it is a restoral of Adam's environment.
This is a brief basis for believing sparred nations who are not Christians are transferred from the great tribulation time
into the millennial kingdom of a nicely restored earth as God prepared for Adam and his descendents HAD nothing else had
gone wrong.

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed” (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?

The ground to believe that not all of God's regenerated people will be ready for the reward of this time (therefore needing more transformation) is based on many passages. Chief among them is the fact that there are SAVED people who receive a reward and
SAVED people who will suffer loss, not ready to receive such a reward. This determination will be decided by Christ at His judgment
seat for HIS saved saints.
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”? When we put together the mention of one thousand years mentioned six times (Rev. 20:2,3,4,5,6,7) with the some saved needing to be disciplined (1 Cor. 3:13-15) it is completely reasonable that this time is ALSO a remedial time for Christ to deal with difficient children. Why would God forever leave them in an ill-suitable and not fully conformed situation? His covenant requires their eventual maturity.
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”? Both the parable of the pounds and the talents show servants of the Lord are rewarded and servants of the Lord will be disciplined. And some rather strongly. This agrees with the plain teaching of SAVED believers suffering loss. Some God's hands are tied and He cannot further perfect those needing perfection after the second coming. Or they imagine that the disciplined servants are either false Christians (Calvinism) or believers who lose eternal life (Arminianism). THat is all the time I have for this post now. The changing of the bullet numbers is a technical glitch I might be able to fix latter.

You have clearly nothing in Rev 20. That is what I thought. That explains why you could not answer these. You reinforce my thesis! I appreciate that!

 

[sovereigngrace]

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”? It is obvious that discipline, further work, adjustment, etc, must take place not in eternity but in the thousand years. For example in Matthew 25:1-12 the foolish virgins are away paying a price to obtain the extra oil that they should have had when the bridegroom arrived. The time they pay the price for this is during the celebration which they missed. The celebration commenced when the bridegroom arrived and unlike the wise virgins they were ill-prepared. Oil is throughout the Bible is a symbol of the Spirit of God. They ALL had oil. The wise had extra oil in their vessels in addition to their lamps. The foolish had the minimum amount. The wise were prudent to have extra amount. The missing of the celebration is not eternal perdition but suffering of loss rather than being rewarded during the millennium
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”? Since I never wrote such a thing there is no reason to explain what I never taught. No Christian's suffering of loss is eternal. It is temporary lasting either all or some portion of the millennium as the Lord deems appropriate.
3. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients of God's life who went on to live by Him"? Since the word of God says when the thousand years are completed all the enemies of God are in the lake of fire including death and Hades it follows that Revelation 21,22 discribes the things following the millennium. And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev. 20:7) And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (v. 10) And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (v.15) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (21:1)
4. Show us in Revelation 20 where it teaches that “The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints”? And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut. (Matt. 25:10) All saints from every age are eventually virgins to Christ, from all history.
5. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that “One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ”? The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it,because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
   If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
   
   If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor.1:13-15)

More avoidance! This explains why you avoided answering these to me. You had nothing to bring to the table.

 

[oikonomia]

You have clearly nothing in Rev 20. That is what I thought. That explains why you could not answer these. You reinforce my thesis! I appreciate that!

You clearly with a painful obviousness cannot refute what I wrote.
You do not have the skill to refute this.
Sadly, you don't answer legitimate questions of your objections either. You ignore valid questions and
withhold requested evidence of untrue charges of me adding to the Scripture.

So I am not concerned about your problems with the Bible in this any longer.
Thanks for helping bring out the truth in contrast to the superficial things you proposed.

Send me one of your students to converse further on it.

 

[oikonomia]

More avoidance! This explains why you avoided answering these to me. You had nothing to bring to the table.

The day will come someday when many of the things I explained to you will becomevery obviousto you.
I am not worried about it.

If some saints lose the reward, God because of His faithfulness and His own need, will bring them
to the intended quality. And the indications are this has to take place after the second coming.

So you are not truthful to say I avoid explaining.
You can say you don't interpret the parable of the wise and foolish virgin in that way.
But will you answer:

1.) Can a Christian BUY eternal life?

But the prudent answered, saying, Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves. And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.

2.) Can a Christian BUY however the greater influence of the Holy Spirit on their soul?

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see. (Rev. 3:18)

3.) Is the parable about the return of Christ or not?

At that time the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (v.1)

4.) If it is not about the return of Christ why does it end in the moral of the story -
Watch therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour. (v.13)

5.) How is an unsaved person with the oil of the Holy Spirit ?

And five of them were foolish and five were prudent.
For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with them;
But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (vs.2-4)

6.) Is there no such thing as prudent Christians and foolish Christians?
And five of them were foolish and five were prudent.

7.) Are unbelievers wating for the Lord Jesus to return like the 10 virgins?
At that time the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (v.1)

8.) If the foolish virgins are Christians for them to miss the festivities upon His return mean their loss of eternal life?

And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. (vs. 11,12)

Now instead of hollow bragging that I have nothing, see if
you can muster up the courage to give clear answers to these eight points.

Or send me somebody on the forum you think can. We can have a good constructive discussion.
No spamming articles please.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You clearly with a painful obviousness cannot refute what I wrote.
You do not have the skill to refute this.
Sadly, you don't answer legitimate questions of your objections either. You ignore valid questions and
withhold requested evidence of untrue charges of me adding to the Scripture.

So I am not concerned about your problems with the Bible in this any longer.
Thanks for helping bring out the truth in contrast to the superficial things you proposed.

Send me one of your students to converse further on it.

You are totally avoiding every single request for biblical evidence. That is because you do not have it. You are simply expressing your own private opinions.

1. Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed” (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?
3. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”?
4. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”?
5. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”?
6. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "The millennial kingdom is a time before the eternal age where reward is given in measures to those recipients of God's life who went on to live by Him"?
7. Show us in Revelation 20 where it teaches that “The millennial kingdom is a time of reward and celebration for a thousand years the overcoming BOTH of Old Testament saints and New Testament saints”?
8. Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that “One thousand years of time before the new heaven and new earth is a period of reward or suffering of loss to all those who were on the foundation of the Redeemer Christ”?

This is not in the Book, and you know it.

 

[oikonomia]

You are totally avoiding every single request for biblical evidence. That is because you do not have it. You are simply expressing your own private opinions.

Face saving braggadocio is all I see from sovreigngrace anymore.