Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[sovereigngrace]

You mean no one should respond to another poster's exaggeration as blasphemy?

I am pretty sure the poster understands clearly how to get a person emotionally riled up.

That needs to be called out, and so does denigrating God's Word in a manner that purposely riles up one emotionally.

No, I am not emotionally riled up. That post has been posted so many times over the last 3+ years, it has literally no value, but like a worn tshirt with a bad logo, it is put on to see if it still fits every few days. Still does not mean it cannot be called out every once in a while.

Is there sin in your future earth?
Is there sinners in in your future earth?
Is there dying in your future earth?
Is there crying in your future earth?
Is there decay in in your future earth?
Is there disease in your future earth?

 

[sovereigngrace]

According to Romans 8 the creation will be freed from the bondage of vanity and corruption because the sons of
God are manifested. The sons of God are manifested FIRST as the cause, the catalyst for the creation to follow them into
freedom of the glory of God.

See if this is not confirmed by this passage.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.
For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:18-23)

Question:

What if by the time of the close of the church age not all of the children of God have reached the maturity of sons?
The number to be evangelized is complete but the number to reach maturity is not yet full.
What if there remains some dear children of God who still remain immature, under transformed, fallen short of building up together and
growth in life?

Then those who are ready to be manifested must not be held back. But the creation also may not enjoy a total
freedom because the numerical total of sons of God have not yet been manifested.

Resolution:

A remedial time of the thousand year kingdom still allows God to perfect the unperfected children to
maturity. Then when there is no more immature ones left the complete rennovation into creation's freedom will climax.

The Apostle Peter seems to skip totally over this period. His burden to do so is understandable. But other
passages do not do so. Even passages from the mouth of the Lord in His parables do not do so.

Here we see Peter skip over any intervening age right into the new heaven and new earth.

2 Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2P 3:8But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.

2P 3:9The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance.

2P 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

2P 3:11Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

2P 3:12Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?

2P 3:13But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed” (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?
2. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”?
3. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”?
4. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”?

So far, you have given me nothing to support your thesis.

The Scriptures that you do present support the Amil position. This shows that the second coming is the end. It is the begining of perfection. The bondage of corruption is completely banished.

In your millennium, you have billions of wicked "as the sand of the sea." Sin and sinners, dying and crying, crime and corruption therefore continue.

 

[Timtofly]

Is there sin in your future earth?
Is there sinners in in your future earth?
Is there dying in your future earth?
Is there crying in your future earth?
Is there decay in in your future earth?
Is there disease in your future earth?

What do you mean by my future earth?

What does restoration mean to you?

Why can you not go with how the Bible describes the Day of the Lord?

 

[sovereigngrace]

What do you mean by my future earth?

What does restoration mean to you?

Why can you not go with how the Bible describes the Day of the Lord?

More avoidance. Restoration is perfection.

But your misplacement of Rev 20 and your denial of the billions of wicked rebels that overrun your millennium is telling. You ignore them as if they are an aberration. Rev 20 forbids your thesis, and you know it.

 

[oikonomia]

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that those who are “unperfected” (whatever that means), “under transformed”

You do believe that not everything always appears in one chapter? You do realize that we put the different parts of the Bible
together to see the fuller picture?

In your next post explain if the saved who are not rewarded but to suffer loss, suffer loss in the eternal age forever.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

1. (whatever that means) or have not reached “full … maturity” (whatever that means) will be “perfected’ in a future millennium?

I explained many things and you don't receive them.
In your next post to me please tell me why Paul said they labored to present every man full-grown in Christ.
Why are they not "full-grown" immediately simply because they have been evangelized?

. . . Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man
and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:26v.27)

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the thousand year kingdom” which be “a remedial time”?

I explained some things which you ignore with a "business as usual" attitude.
In your next post to me explain how the unforgiving servant can repay what he owes the Lord Jesus for eternal redemption.

Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?
And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. (Matt. 18:33,34)

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “while a remnant are rewarded there is time for those who were not to be made suitable”?

Its time to put your alternative interpretation under the microscope.

In your next post explain how the foolish virgins go to eternal damnation with the Holy Spirit. The oil they purchase is surely a
symbol of the Holy Spirit.

But the prudent answered, saying, Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.
And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.
And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. (Matt. 25:9-12)

1. Where does it teach in Scripture or in Revelation 20 that “the eternal age the suffering of loss of some saved is to be extended forever”?

You're mixed up. That is what you have not explained to me. In your next post answer then what you have avoided.
If some saved . . . suffer loss is it for a period or for all eternity?

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

So far, you have given me nothing to support your thesis.

In your next post to me I hope you will answer the five questions about your belief that
following the church age immediately there is the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.

The Scriptures that you do present support the Amil position. This shows that the second coming is the end. It is the begining of perfection. The bondage of corruption is completely banished.

In your millennium, you have billions of wicked "as the sand of the sea." Sin and sinners, dying and crying, crime and corruption therefore continue.

Revelation 20, not me, tells us this.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If "thousand years are completed" at the end of the church age then I am cannot be deceived because the Devil is presently
in the bottomless pit and can deceive the Gentiles no more for that period.

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:2,3)

In your next post explain. Since I am a Gentile, how could I be deceived to believe a lie when the Devil presently cannot "deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years" are completed?

You can also tell me how long "a little while" is there.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You do believe that not everything always appears in one chapter? You do realize the we put the different parts of the Bible
together to see the fuller picture?

In your next post explain if the saved who are not rewarded but to suffer loss, suffer loss in the eternal age forever.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

You did not answer the question. This is the same passage the RCC uses to support Purgatory. This is a totally misinterpretation of Scripture. This does not mention some future millennium full of more-of-the-same. You need to foist that upon the text. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Scripture presents the second coming of the Lord as the day when “every man's work shall be made manifest” (or be revealed). There is no hiding for anyone when Jesus Comes. He is coming to mete out final justice for all. Every man’s works shall be judged as by fire. This day involves the judgement of both the righteous and the wicked. This they will see the righteous rewarded, and the wicked punished (“the day shall declare it”).

I explained many things and you don't receive them.
In your next post to me please tell me why Paul said they labored to present every man full-grown in Christ.
Why are they not "full-grown" immediately simply because they have been evangelized?

. . . Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man
and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:26v.27)

Again, you did not answer the question. You obviously have nothing, You are twisting Scripture to support your private opinions. Paul simply wanted every man who heard the Gospel to make heaven. That is all he is saying. Again, this does not mention some future millennium full of more-of-the-same.

I explained some things which you ignore with a "business as usual" attitude.
In your next post to me explain how the unforgiving servant can play what he owe the Lord Jesus for eternal life.

Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?
And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. (Matt. 18:33,34)

It is becoming very clear that you have nothing to support your speculations. You are just voicing private interpretation all the time. You have nothing of substance. There is nothing to refute.

Its time to put your alternative interpretation under the microscope.

In your next post explain how the foolish virgins go to eternal damnation with the Holy Spirit. The oil they purchase is surely a
symbol of the Holy Spirit.

But the prudent answered, saying, Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.
And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.
And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. (Matt. 25:9-12)

This is a parable. This is symbolism. The oil is in their lamps, not in their lives. The message is simply about preparedness or lack thereof. The reality of the five foolish virgins was they had no real relationship. They were unknown to the Lord Jesus Christ. Sadly, the visible Church has always been filled with people who outwardly look the part, yet, inwardly know not Christ. They have religion but NO relationship.

This parable speaks of Christ’s coming and shows that He is coming for those that are ready. The 5 virgins in this earthly story are a spiritual picture of the bride of Christ. The parable of the virgins supports the idea of a climactic Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

You're mixed up. That is what you have not explained to me. In your next post answer then what you have avoided.
If some saved suffer loss is it for a period or for all eternity.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

This is talking about our rewards on judgment day. Nothing to do with your future millennium.

In your next post to me I hope you will answer the five questions about your belief that
following the church age immediately there is the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.


Revelation 20, not me, tells us this.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If "thousand years are completed" at the end of the church age then I am cannot be deceived because the Devil is presently
in the bottomless pit and can deceive the Gentiles no more for that period.

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:2,3)

In your next post explain. Since I am a Gentile, how could I be deceived to believe a lie when the Devil presently cannot "deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years" are completed?

You can also tell me how long "a little while" is there.

So, basically you have nothing of any biblical weight. That is what I suspected.

 

[Timtofly]

More avoidance. Restoration is perfection.

But your misplacement of Rev 20 and your denial of the billions of wicked rebels that overrun your millennium is telling. You ignore them as if they are an aberration. Rev 20 forbids your thesis, and you know it.

It is not avoidance. It is that you are not even asking the questions as if you cared? Nor do you even desire to carry on a proper conversation.

Satan deceived one person in the Garden of Eden, and the result changed history. So if you don't think any one should be deceived by Satan after the Day of the Lord, then pray about it.

You could take the time to answer the questions I posted.

Since the restoration of this current creation is back to perfection, why would you argue perfection continues for a thousand years?

I am not denying that Satan deceived a third of the angels. I am not denying that Satan deceived Eve. Why would I deny that Satan is allowed to deceive humanity after the Day of the Lord? When do you think it proper for Satan to deceive people? Are you denying that Satan is able to deceive?

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is not avoidance. It is that you are not even asking the questions as if you cared? Nor do you even desire to carry on a proper conversation.

Satan deceived one person in the Garden of Eden, and the result changed history. So if you don't think any one should be deceived by Satan after the Day of the Lord, then pray about it.

You could take the time to answer the questions I posted.

Since the restoration of this current creation is back to perfection, why would you argue perfection continues for a thousand years?

I am not denying that Satan deceived a third of the angels. I am not denying that Satan deceived Eve. Why would I deny that Satan is allowed to deceive humanity after the Day of the Lord? When do you think it proper for Satan to deceive people? Are you denying that Satan is able to deceive?

Where in Revelation 20 do you see any mention of "the restoration of this current creation ... back to perfection"? You have nothing. You know that. You have to force it into the text. That is adding unto to Scripture.

 

[oikonomia]

You did not answer the question. This is the same passage the RCC uses to support Purgatory.

This is "guilt by association." I will continue to see if you answer.

This is a totally misinterpretation of Scripture.

I quoted the Scripture - 1 Cor. 3:15,16. As I read through your reply I'm looking for your explantion. No Guilt By Association to
dodge.

This does not mention some future millennium full of more-of-the-same.

It does mention that the SAVED . . . the SAVED . . . some of them will "suffer loss". You are going to tell me if this is a temporary
suffering of loss or an everlasting suffering of loss. Maybe coming up is your answer.

You need to foist that upon the text. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

So far you haven't said anything I do not see. The fact that they are building on the foundation of Christ shows:
1.) They are of the Christian church.
2.) They are obviously saved people.

So we have saved people including Paul, Apollos, and Cephas with all the Christians in Corinth building the house of
God by Christ growing in them. If you are able to receive it, gold shows the divine nature of the Father.
Silver shows the redemptive work of the Son. And precious stones shows the transforming work of the Spirit.

What will pass the coming firey examination of Christ is that which has come out of the operation upon man of the divine Trinity.
Other materials represent the worthless aspects of the fallen Adamic nature. They are found in great abundance such as grass, stubble,
hay, even wood. But they will not pass unsinged through the judgment seat of Christ.

Trying to build the temple of God with the fallen nature will result in the loss of reward and the suffering of loss.
You, I hope, are going to explain if that suffering of loss after the judgment seat of Christ is eternal or remporary, limited to
a period of time with a terminal point.

Scripture presents the second coming of the Lord as the day when “every man's work shall be made manifest” (or be revealed).

That's completely right. And here is it the work of Christ growing in man and building man together for His living and holy temple.
Every man will be examined who is building the church with what materials did he attempt to build.
In other words, how much did God's life grow in him for the holy temple. The church in Corinth is God's farm or cultivated land.
And it is God's building. The building goes up as God grows within its constituent parts.

you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (v.9b)

There is no hiding for anyone when Jesus Comes. He is coming to mete out final justice for all. Every man’s works shall be judged as by fire. This day involves the judgement of both the righteous and the wicked. This they will see the righteous rewarded, and the wicked punished (“the day shall declare it”).

This is all true what you tell me. But "final justice" seems to indicate that you see the "suffer loss" for the eternally SAVED Christian
a FINAL and eternal suffering of loss. Is that what you are saying?

If the suffering of loss for the saved Christians is for a specific period of time which comes to an end then it is not "final".
Remember the Lord still has to have every single believer made holy for His corporate dwelling place.
So Sov, the "loss" has to be rectified to be the "gain" that they were destined for.

The Apostle Paul was very mature spiritually. But he ever sought to GAIN Christ. He needed more of Christ wrought into his being.
No? Right here.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ (Phil. 3:8)

The loss is the deficiency of the amount of Christ grown in the believer.
God would not have that believer deficient in a final everlasting state.
So there must be a remedial period for the gaining of the Christ that he lacks.

Again, you did not answer the question.

Your answer to my question appears to be the a man building upon the one foundation of Christ being SAVED
will have a FINAL state of LOSS in eternity.

I say you don't see well the purpose of God to build a holy temple which cannot permit any eternal lack of
Christ wrought into the beings of its constituents.

I think you take "the judgment seat of Christ" to be the final judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20.
The following two verses are about a judgment of ONLY Christians. No one who is not a Christian will be qualified to stand at this
judgment at Christ's return.

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)
Equivalent to:
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, (Rom. 14:10)

This is the firey examination when Christ decides if we are to be rewarded or further disciplined at the second coming.
And if there is a saved man who losses the reward and suffers loss, it has to be a temporary loss.
I think you confuse the varied judgments in the NT into one FINAL one at the beginning of the eternal age.

So the error follows that the loss the saved one has can never be made up to make him suitable for God's completely holy
temple. The suffering of loss is temporary. It may involve different lengths of time according to each case.
But it cannot exceed one thousand years. Perhaps according to the case it may be some portion of a thousand years.

You obviously have nothing, You are twisting Scripture to support your private opinions. Paul simply wanted every man who heard the Gospel to make heaven. That is all he is saying. Again, this does not mention some future millennium full of more-of-the-same.

You have a big misunderstanding that a Christian may suffer loss for eternity.
Look at the parables. The suffering of discipline for the unforgiving servant is UNTIL he has paid what he owed. [my caps]

And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers UNTIL he would repay all that was owed. (Matt. 18:34)
This is not the oweing for eternal redemption. It is the oweing in relation to not overcoming his unforgiveness. He should have
used the alloted time to allow the grace of Christ to swallow up his grudging unforgiveness towards fellow believers.

Does "until he would repay" indicate temporary loss or eternal loss ?

Look again at the Lord saying that servants will receive discipine according to what they knew.
Severe discipline to those who knew the master's will. Lighter discipline to the one who didn't know his master's will.

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes; (Luke 12:46,47)

The teaching is about the Lord's second coming.
The punishment of lashes is not eternal.
So here again after the second coming some saved one suffers loss which is not everlasting.

So there must be a dispensation of time before eternity to deal rewards and discipline to the saved.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is "guilt by association." I will continue to see if you answer.

I quoted the Scripture Sov. - 1 Cor. 3:15,16. As I read through your reply I'm looking for your explantion. No Guilt By Association to
dodge.

It does mention that the SAVED . . . the SAVED . . . some of them will "suffer loss". You are going to tell me if this is a temporary
suffering of loss or an everlasting suffering of loss. Maybe coming up is your answer.


So far you haven't said anything I do not see. The fact that they are building on the foundation of Christ shows:
1.) They are of the Christian church.
2.) They are obviously saved people.

So we have saved people including Paul, Apollos, and Cephas with all the Christians in Corinth building the house of
God by Christ growing in them. If you are able to receive it, gold shows the divine nature of the Father.
Silver shows the redemptive work of the Son. And precious stones shows the transforming work of the Spirit.

What will pass the coming firey examination of Christ is that which has come out of the operation upon man of the divine Trinity.
Other materials represent the worthess aspects of the fallen Adamic nature. They are found in great abundance such as grass, stubble,
hay, even wood. But they will not pass unsinged through the judgment seat of Christ.

Trying to build the temple of God with the fallen nature will result in the loss of reward and the suffering of loss.
You, I hope, are going to explain if that suffering of loss after the judgment seat of Christ is eternal or remporary, limited to
a period of time with a terminal point.


That's completely right. And here is it the work of Christ growing in man and building man together for His living and holy temple.
Every man will be examined who is building the church with what materials did he attempt to build.
In other words, how much did God's life grow in him for the holy temple. The church in Corinth is God's farm or cultivated land.
And it is God's building. The building goes up as God grows within its constituent parts.

you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (v.9b)


This is all true what you tell me. But "final justice" seems to indicate that you see the "suffer loss" for the eternally SAVED Christian
a FINAL and eternal suffering of loss. Is that what you are saying?

If the suffering of loss for the saved Christians is for a specific period of time which comes to an end then it is not "final".
Remember the Lord still has to have every single believer made holy for His corporate dwelling place.
So Sov, the "loss" has to be rectified to be the "gain" that they were destined for.

The Apostle Paul was very mature spiritually. But he ever sought to GAIN Christ. He needed more of Christ wrought into his being.
No? Right here.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ (Phil. 3:8)

The loss is the deficiency of the amount of Christ grown in the believer.
God would not have that believer deficient in a final everlasting state.
So there must be a remedial period for the gaining of the Christ that he lacks.


Your answer to my question appears to be the a man building upon the one foundation of Christ being SAVED
will have a FINAL state of LOSS in eternity.

I say you don't see well the purpose of God to build a holy temple which cannot permit any eternal lack of
Christ wrought into the beings of its constituents.

I think you take "the judgment seat of Christ" to be the final judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20.
The following two verses are about a judgment of ONLY Christians. No one who is not a Christian will be qualified to stand at this
judgment at Christ's return.

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)
Equivalent to:
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, (Rom. 14:10)

This is the firey examination when Christ decides if we are to be rewarded or further disciplined at the second coming.
And if there is a saved man who losses the reward and suffers loss, it has to be a temporary loss.
I think confuse the varied judgments into one FINAL one at the beginning of the eternal age.

So the error follows that the loss the saved one has can never be made up to make him suitable for God's completely holy
temple. The suffering of loss is temporary. It may involve different lengths of time according to each case.
But it cannot exceed one thousand years. Perhaps according to the case it may be some portion of a thousand years.



You have a big misunderstanding that a Christian may suffer loss for eternity.
Look at the parables. The suffering of discipline for the unforgiving servant is UNTIL he has paid what he owed. [my caps]

And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers UNTIL he would repay all that was owed. (Matt. 18:34)
This is not the oweing for eternal redemption. It is the oweing in relation to not overcoming his unforgiveness. He should have
used the alloted time to allow the grace of Christ to swallow up his grudging unforgiveness towards fellow believers.

Does "until he would repay" indicate temporary loss or eternal loss ?

Look again at the Lord saying that servants will receive discipine according to what they knew.
Severe discipline to those who knew the master's will. Lighter discipline to the one who didn't know his master's will.

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes; (Luke 12:46,47)

The teaching is about the Lord's second coming.
The punishment of lashes is not eternal.
So here again after the second coming some saved one suffers loss which is not everlasting.

So there must be a dispensation of time before eternity to deal rewards and discipline to the saved.

You're not giving me any evidence. All i am getting is your opinions. There is no hard indisputable direct evidence to support your speculations. Your whole premise is built upon the fact that Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19 in time. That is not the case. Revelation 19 forbids your thesis. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 is the beginning of the last recap in the book. This is the only way that you can come up with two future judgment days. There is no other Scripture to corroborate this theory.

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

Jesus alludes to His climactic coming in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

• This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
• The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
• These are both judged at His appearing.
• One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
• The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
• They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
• There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
• The good receive eternal life.
• The bad obtain eternal punishment.
• There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

To “inherit the kingdom” (v 34) and “life eternal” (v 46) and to escape “everlasting fire” (v 41) or “everlasting punishment” (v 46) comes through a personal faith in Christ alone, not good works as you insinuate. The reality is, believers care for the brethren - if they truly know Christ. Scripture depicts the genuine believer (the one that has found Christ through grace alone, through faith alone) as one who loves the brethren.

The difficulty Premil has is that it has the wicked inheriting the kingdom of God when repeated Scripture forbids them entry. They relate the judgment to whole nations (of saved and unsaved). With this, they have saved being “cursed” and lost being “blessed.” They have righteous people living in wicked nations being damned because of nationality. They equally have wicked people living in righteous nations being blessed because of nationality. This can never be and is at complete variance with the character of God and Scripture after Scripture that state the opposite.

Let us remind ourselves of what 1 Corinthians 15:50 says: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, he makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Only righteous glorified saints are fitted to inherit it.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, saying, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

So, the future ‘kingdom age’ (that Premils talk about) cannot involve mortals and cannot involve the wicked. This totally contradicts the millennial picture that Premils depict of the new earth of saints and sinners equally inheriting the kingdom. They have corruption inheriting incorruption when God said it couldn’t, They have mortals inheriting the kingdom when 1 Corinthians 15 said they couldn’t. It seems like every prohibition that the sacred pages have placed upon inheriting the incorruptible kingdom is ignored and countless rebels are allowed onto the new earth.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, "For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off."

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

Does the meek (the righteous) and the wicked inherit the earth or just the meek?

The ungodly are all destroyed at Christ’s return and the righteous alone (the meek) inherit the new perfected earth. The “cursed” of God cannot inherit the earth with the “blessed” of God, especially for another 1000 years. They will actually be cut-off by Him when He returns, allowing the meek alone to inherit the new earth'.

The answer is clear and exclusively the meek. Amillennialism would see this fulfilment only possible when the earth is cleansed and restored to its pre-sin, pre-curse, pre-death state. Peace cannot exist where sin and rebellion continue to occur. A peaceful inheritance of a wicked, rebellious earth still subjugated to the plague and curse is no peaceful inheritance at all.

 

[Timtofly]

Where in Revelation 20 do you see any mention of "the restoration of this current creation ... back to perfection"? You have nothing. You know that. You have to force it into the text. That is adding unto to Scripture.

You are forcing your theory of recapitulation into the text of Revelation 20. The chapter already explains itself. No one has to force anything to understand the chronological order John gave.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are forcing your theory of recapitulation into the text of Revelation 20. The chapter already explains itself. No one has to force anything to understand the chronological order John gave.

Where in Revelation 20 do you see any mention of "the restoration of this current creation ... back to perfection"? You have nothing. You know that. You have to force it into the text. That is adding unto to Scripture.

 

[oikonomia]

You're not giving me any evidence. All i am getting is your opinions.

Evidence has been given. You are burying head in the sand.
I am not sure you are even reading my evidence your are so filled with the sense of importance of your own opinion.

There is no hard indisputable direct evidence to support your speculations.

Grandstanding does not answer the matters I put to you.
Should I expect something more below? Let's see.

Your whole premise is built upon the fact that Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19 in time.

Excuse me. I said quite a bit dealing with First Corinthains. You feel comfortable going back to Revelation 20
where you have concentrated your objections. I will read on to see if you deal with First Corinthians chapter 3 and
the judgment seat of Christ for reward or discipline to the saved.

You feel comfomfortable falling back on your "tried and true" objections to Revelation 20.
Oh, you did have some things to say about parables which I have not yet addressed.

That is not the case. Revelation 19 forbids your thesis. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 is the beginning of the last recap in the book. This is the only way that you can come up with two future judgment days. There is no other Scripture to corroborate this theory.

Soveriegngrace, you are not dealing with my question of First Corinthians chapter three.
Why not tackle First Corinthians 3:14,15. Is the saved one's suffering of loss an eternal matter or not?
Yes or No ?
or
I can't answer that at this time yet.

I am a reasonable Bible student. I am willing to accept "I cannot answer that at this time" as a legtimate answer.

As it was left you leaned toward that suffering of loss of the saved as final.
Is that where you want to leave it?

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

Sovereigngrace, what are you doing to me?? Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection. It could be understood as the BEST resurrection.
And then it says the rest of the dead were raised a thousand years latter. Don't blame me!

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5,6)

That strongly communicates a resurrection which is the first (or the best) and a resurrection a thousand years latter.

Not only so but Jesus in John 5:28,29 gives evidence which indicates two resurrections one of life and one of judgment.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29)

Concerning Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 my comments will not be as in depth as I would like to take
the time for now.

Jesus alludes to His climactic coming in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

• This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree that it is after the second coming of Christ.

• Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.

It is not the final judgment we see in the great white throne in Revelation 20.
The ones being judged here are living people.
The ones being judged at the great white throne are the dead.

The judgment of the living "sheep" and living "goats" is of Gentiles who survived through
the great tribulation. Yes the Lord's disciples are sheep in the New Testament. But the OT shows all created man are the sheep of His hand.

Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, all the earth.
Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; / Come before His presence with joyful singing. . . .
Know that it is Jehovah who is God; / It is He who has made us and not we ourselves.
/ We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. (Psalm 100:1-3)

You see from another angle all peoples created on the earth are the Creator's sheep.

• The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
• These are both judged at His appearing.
• One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
• The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
• They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.

In this judgment there are THREE parties involved.
1.) sheep
2.) goats
3.) The Lord's brothers down to the least of them.

The judgment of those spared (sheep) and those condemned (goats) has to do
with how they treated or neglected the third party (the Lord's brothers down to the least of them).

This judgment is that mentioned to take place in the valley of Jehosophat in the prophecy of Joel 3:11-14.
Multitudes of living nations in a geographic spot on earth in the Judea.

Hurry and come, / All you surrounding nations, / And be gathered. / There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah!
JLet the nations rouse themselves and come up / To the valley of Jehoshaphat. / For there I will sit to judge / All the surrounding nations.
Send forth the sickle, / For the harvest is ripe; / Come, tread, / For the winepress is full; / The wine vats overflow, / For their evil is great.
Multitudes, multitudes, / In the valley of decision; / For the day of Jehovah has drawn near / In the valley of decision. (Joel 3:11-14)

The great white throne judgment before the eternal age is of the dead where heaven and earth have fled away.
They stand there suspended before Christ to be judged by the books and according to the book of life.

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. (Rev. 20:11,12)

They are the dead not the living.
They are not in Judea in a great valley. The heaven and earth have fled away
and they are suspended in space before God's throne.

• There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.

I'll go with what I am told in Scripture.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:5)

• The good receive eternal life.

I will not go into the difference here with entering into eternal life and receiving eternal life.
The sheep who enter into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world are not sons of
God with the Spirit within them. They are to be like Adam was - neutral, good, and innocent inheriting the good
creation God made for man.

After a lomg period of time they TOO will receive a chance to side ultimately with Christ or the freed Devil.
Satan still has some use to God to test these ones and the ones born during the millennium.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev. 20:7)

I do sympathize with the astounding idea that after so long a time of a paradise like earth
some could be exposed to join the loosed Satan after a millennia. It is incredible.

However this is the last bit of usefulness Satan will have before he joins the Antichrist and the false prophet
where they are still in the lake of fire from 1,000 years earlier. Dreadful. Horrendous justice result of final judgment on the Devil.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)

• The bad obtain eternal punishment.

In the case of the goats that sided with Antichrist, they were warned in chapter 14 that eternal punishment would be
their destiny for receiving the mark of devotion to Anthrist.

And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9-11)

These are those goats who neglected the saints who were branded as a public nuisance, denied help in any way by
the people in the government of the Antichrist.

But some will heed conscience and fear the Creator who is demonstrating His soverignty and mighty power over the universe
by the things happening as a warning.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (Rev. 14:6,7)

The ones who fear the Creator will be sparred to pass from that great tribulation and given a chance to enter into
the paradise earth prepared from the foundation of the earth in Genesis. Their test apparently comes after so long
a time of witnessing what God can do.

It doesn't say they over ran the kingdom. It says they tried and failed.
Did you notice that during the restoration God said the sinner would die at 100 years old?

And I will exult in Jerusalem / And rejoice in My people; / And there will no longer be heard in her / The voice of weeping and the voice of crying.

There will no longer be in her / An infant who reaches the age of only a few days / Nor an old man who does not fill up his days; / For the lad will die at a hundred years of age, / And the sinner, being a hundred years of age, will be cursed. (Isaiah 65:19,20)

This must be the longevity of those sheep nations who enter into the situation of the restored earth.
Though I as well cannot fully explain some things. We know in part and prophesy in part.
But since all the sons of God are not yet rid of the LOSS they suffered, a intervening period when things
like this will occur on earth. They will not occur forever this way.

• There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

I showed you three parties at the judgment in the valley of Jehashaphat.
This is the valley of decision before the throne of Christ's glory.

Sheep, goats, and the Lord's brothers down to the least of them are three parties.

And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me. (v.40)

Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you,
Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither have you done it to Me. (v.45)

Neither group knew the Lord Jesus. They only knew that certain people of God were sorely suffering, naked, refugees,
unable to sell or buy, sick and imprisoned. They are judged in relation to how they reacted to these brothers of the Lord
were suffering.

Now, I admit that "but the righteous into eternal life" sounds like they receive eternal life which is Christ.
But I do not think that is what is meant. They enter into that paradise realm which God prepared for Adam
before he received death into him. The Lord does not say His Father is their Father. He says the blessing is from
"My Father" only.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; etc, etc, (vs. 34,35)

However the ones reigning over them have Christ's Father and their Father.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of THIER Father. (Matt. 13:43)

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

Here the goats unquestionably sided with Satan by receiving the mark of the beast.
They obeyed Antichrist in the depriving of the persecuted saints food, shelter, clothing, visitation in prison. etc.
They did not realize that God had become a MAN in Jesus and these persecuted ones were His brothers down to the least of them.

The sheep listened to the eternal gospel to fear the Creator rather than the man sitting in Jerusalem's temple proclaiming he should
be worshipped. And his government has declared all God fearing ones in their realm are to be exterminated out of society.

You do not believe ANY during that time will listen to their conscience.
I believe that there has to be some people for the sons of God to reign over.
I do not believe the sons of God reign over each other.

Now you have other points but I will stop this reply here.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Evidence has been given. You are burying head in the sand.
I am not sure you are even reading my evidence your are so filled with the sense of importance of your own opinion.

Grandstanding does not answer the matters I put to you.
Should I expect something more below? Let's see.

Excuse me. I said quite a bit dealing with First Corinthains. You feel comfortable going back to Revelation 20
where you have concentrated your objections. I will read on to see if you deal with First Corinthians chapter 3 and
the judgment seat of Christ for reward or discipline to the saved.

You feel comfomfortable falling back on your "tried and true" objections to Revelation 20.
Oh, you did have some things to say about parables which I have not yet addressed.

Soveriegngrace, you are not dealing with my question of First Corinthians chapter three.
Why not tackle First Corinthians 3:14,15. Is the saved one's suffering of loss an eternal matter or not?
Yes or No ?
or
I can't answer that at this time yet.

I am a reasonable Bible student. I am willing to accept "I cannot answer that at this time" as a legtimate answer.

As it was left you leaned toward that suffering of loss of the saved as final.
Is that where you want to leave it?


Sovereigngrace, what are you doing to me?? Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection. It could be understood as the BEST resurrection.
And then it says the rest of the dead were raised a thousand years latter. Don't blame me!

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5,6)

That strongly communicates a resurrection which is the first (or the best) and a resurrection a thousand years latter.

Not only so but Jesus in John 5:28,29 gives evidence which indicates two resurrections one of life and one of judgment.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29)

Concerning Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 my comments will not be as in depth as I would like to take
the time for now.

I agree that it is after the second coming of Christ.

It is not the final judgment we see in the great white throne in Revelation 20.
The ones being judged here are living people.
The ones being judged at the great white throne are the dead.

The judgment of the living "sheep" and living "goats" is of Gentiles who survived through
the great tribulation. Yes the Lord's disciples are sheep in the New Testament. But the OT shows all created man are the sheep of His hand.

Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, all the earth.
Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; / Come before His presence with joyful singing. . . .
Know that it is Jehovah who is God; / It is He who has made us and not we ourselves.
/ We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. (Psalm 100:1-3)

You see from another angle all peoples created on the earth are the Creator's sheep.


In this judgment there are THREE parties involved.
1.) sheep
2.) goats
3.) The Lord's brothers down to the least of them.

The judgment of those spared (sheep) and those condemned (goats) has to do
with how they treated or neglected the third party (the Lord's brothers down to the least of them).

This judgment is that mentioned to take place in the valley of Jehosophat in the prophecy of Joel 3:11-14.
Multitudes of living nations in a geographic spot on earth in the Judea.

Hurry and come, / All you surrounding nations, / And be gathered. / There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah!
JLet the nations rouse themselves and come up / To the valley of Jehoshaphat. / For there I will sit to judge / All the surrounding nations.
Send forth the sickle, / For the harvest is ripe; / Come, tread, / For the winepress is full; / The wine vats overflow, / For their evil is great.
Multitudes, multitudes, / In the valley of decision; / For the day of Jehovah has drawn near / In the valley of decision. (Joel 3:11-14)

The great white throne judgment before the eternal age is of the dead where heaven and earth have fled away.
They stand there suspended before Christ to be judged by the books and according to the book of life.

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. (Rev. 20:11,12)

They are the dead not the living.
They are not in Judea in a great valley. The heaven and earth have fled away
and they are suspended in space before God's throne.


I'll go with what I am told in Scripture.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:5)

I will not go into the difference here with entering into eternal life and receiving eternal life.
The sheep who enter into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world are not sons of
God with the Spirit within them. They are to be like Adam was - neutral, good, and innocent inheriting the good
creation God made for man.

After a lomg period of time they TOO will receive a chance to side ultimately with Christ or the freed Devil.
Satan still has some use to God to test these ones and the ones born during the millennium.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev. 20:7)

I do sympathize with the astounding idea that after so long a time of a paradise like earth
some could be exposed to join the loosed Satan after a millennia. It is incredible.

However this is the last bit of usefulness Satan will have before he joins the Antichrist and the false prophet
where they are still in the lake of fire from 1,000 years earlier. Dreadful. Horrendous justice result of final judgment on the Devil.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)


In the case of the goats that sided with Antichrist, they were warned in chapter 14 that eternal punishment would be
their destiny for receiving the mark of devotion to Anthrist.

And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9-11)

These are those goats who neglected the saints who were branded as a public nuisance, denied help in any way by
the people in the government of the Antichrist.

But some will heed conscience and fear the Creator who is demonstrating His soverignty and mighty power over the universe
by the things happening as a warning.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (Rev. 14:6,7)

The ones who fear the Creator will be sparred to pass from that great tribulation and given a chance to enter into
the paradise earth prepared from the foundation of the earth in Genesis. Their test apparently comes after so long
a time of witnessing what God can do.

It doesn't say they over ran the kingdom. It says they tried and failed.
Did you notice that during the restoration God said the sinner would die at 100 years old?

And I will exult in Jerusalem / And rejoice in My people; / And there will no longer be heard in her / The voice of weeping and the voice of crying.

There will no longer be in her / An infant who reaches the age of only a few days / Nor an old man who does not fill up his days; / For the lad will die at a hundred years of age, / And the sinner, being a hundred years of age, will be cursed. (Isaiah 65:19,20)

This must be the longevity of those sheep nations who enter into the situation of the restored earth.
Though I as well cannot fully explain some things. We know in part and prophesy in part.
But since all the sons of God are not yet rid of the LOSS they suffered, a intervening period when things
like this will occur on earth. They will not occur forever this way.


I showed you three parties at the judgment in the valley of Jehashaphat.
This is the valley of decision before the throne of Christ's glory.

Sheep, goats, and the Lord's brothers down to the least of them are three parties.

And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me. (v.40)

Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you,
Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither have you done it to Me. (v.45)

Neither group knew the Lord Jesus. They only knew that certain people of God were sorely suffering, naked, refugees,
unable to sell or buy, sick and imprisoned. They are judged in relation to how they reacted to these brothers of the Lord
were suffering.

Now, I admit that "but the righteous into eternal life" sounds like they receive eternal life which is Christ.
But I do not think that is what is meant. They enter into that paradise realm which God prepared for Adam
before he received death into him. The Lord does not say His Father is their Father. He says the blessing is from
"My Father" only.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; etc, etc, (vs. 34,35)

However the ones reigning over them have Christ's Father and their Father.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of THIER Father. (Matt. 13:43)


Here the goats unquestionably sided with Satan by receiving the mark of the beast.
They obeyed Antichrist in the depriving of the persecuted saints food, shelter, clothing, visitation in prison. etc.
They did not realize that God had become a MAN in Jesus and these persecuted ones were His brothers down to the least of them.

The sheep listened to the eternal gospel to fear the Creator rather than the man sitting in Jerusalem's temple proclaiming he should
be worshipped. And his government has declared all God fearing ones in their realm are to be exterminated out of society.

You do not believe ANY during that time will listen to their conscience.
I believe that there has to be some people for the sons of God to reign over.
I do not believe the sons of God reign over each other.

Now you have other points but I will stop this reply here.

The whole basis of your argument is on your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20. That is it. It is becoming clearer and clearer the more you write. You have nothing else. You view every single passage of Scripture through the lens of your opinion of one lone passage 3 chapters before the end of the Bible. That is horrible hermeneutics. Amil is the opposite, it interprets Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. This is a smarter way to do things. As a result, because their understanding of Revelation 20 is wrong. Premil has zero corroboration for all their main tenets.

1 Corinthians 3:14 & 15 is simply a judgment day passage. There is no mention of your future millennium in there. You have no remedial improvement in Revelation 20 or anywhere else. You are yet to give us anything to support your claims. That is because it doesn't exist in Holy Writ. It is limited to your own understanding.

 

[oikonomia]

The whole basis of your argument is on your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20.

It is not the whole basis. It is certainly a contributing factor as well it should be.

That is it. It is becoming clearer and clearer the more you write. You have nothing else.

I'm underwhelmed sovereigngrace. Not impressed here at your confidence when much goes
unresponded to by you.

You view every single passage of Scripture through the lens of your opinion of one lone passage 3 chapters before the end of the Bible.

You wish that, I think, because the most of your preperation has gone to teaching Revelation 20 says the opposite to what
it written. Ie. (The five or six mentions of a thousand years).

When the only tool one has is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
You should see the illogic of your position that it is final for a saved Christian to suffer loss forever. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

1 Corinthians 3:14 & 15 is simply a judgment day passage.

Do I detect some progress? So now the passage is A judgment passage and not THE final judgment passage.
So I detect that just maybe you want to pull back on seeing "the judgment seat of Christ" as the same as the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20.

Now in your next post tell me if the servant of the Lord who is lashed in the parable is lashed forever or not.
Remember now, the teaching as about preparation for the second coming of the Lord BY His disciples.
Are "many lashes" infinite lashes? Are "few lashes" lashes forever ?

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;

But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. (Luke 12:45-48a)

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is not the whole basis. It is certainly a contributing factor as well it should be.

Underwhelmed sovereigngrace. Not impressed at your confidence when much goes
unresponded to.

You wish that I think because the most of your preperation has gone to teaching Revelation 20 says the opposite to what
it written.

When the only tool one has is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
You should see the illogic of your position that it is final for a saved Christian to suffer loss forever. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)


Do I detect some progress? So now the passage is A judgment passage and not THE final judgment passage.
So I detect that just maybe you want to pull back on seeing "the judgment seat of Christ" as the same as the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20.

Now in your next post tell me if the servant of the Lord who is lashed in the parable is lashed forever or not.
Remember now, the teaching as about preparation for the second coming of the Lord BY His disciples.
Are "many lashes" infinite lashes? Are "few lashes" lashes forever ?

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;

But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (Luke 12:45-48)

Not so. I used to believe Premil. But it does not add up. It is a totally uncorroborated theory. It is a private interpretation on an inspired text. You have no support for your claims elsewhere in Scripture. The judgment seat of Christ is the great white throne, the one and only judgment day.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

 

[oikonomia]

Not so. I used to believe Premil. But it does not add up. It is a totally uncorroborated theory.

"Been there done that" does not address my questions. Let's see if you actually tackle them or
go with "argument by yawning."

It is a private interpretation on an inspired text.

So far no answer to whether "few lashes" to the servant or "many lashes" to the servant at the master's return
means eternal lashes. Show me why I should not believe that a specific period where discipline for Christians
following the second coming is not evidenced by Luke 12:45-48.

According to your opinion the second coming should be immediately followed by no lack of perfection in the saved.
So in this age of eternal perfection "few lashes" and "many lashes" are administered to the none watching servant ?

You have no support for your claims elsewhere in Scripture. The judgment seat of Christ is the great white throne, the one and only judgment day.

No it isn't. The judgment seat of Christ is not for unbelievers. It is for saints to determine reward or discipline.
It is not for determining the GIFT of eternal life.

In your next post HOW could the Apostle Paul saved forever, with the assurance of that, say he was concerned that
after having preached to others he himself might be disapproved.

But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1 Cor. 9:24)

Was he saying he was concerned he might lose eternal redemption and eternal life?
Or was he saying he was concerned he might loss the REWARD and suffer loss following Christ's return?

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

You're puttng me on the defensive again to evade questions put to you that you don't want to answer.
So in the eternal age immediately following the second coming unwatchul servant will be disciplined (lashes) ?
YES or NO or I Can Answer That Yet?

2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

Where in Scripture in your age of perfection is the unwatchful servant lashed with few or many lashes of discipline?
It is suppose to be an age of perfection not discipline?

And WHY if the GIFT of eternal life is a GIFT unmeritted, does Paul speak of running a race or competing like an athlete?

Do you not know that those who run on a racecourse all run, but one receives the prize? Run in this way, that you may lay hold.
And everyone who contends exercises self-control in all things; they then, that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we, an incorruptible.

I therefore run in this way, not as though without a clear aim; I box in this way, not as though beating the air;
But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1 Cor. 9:24-27)

There must be a dispensation in which REWARD or DISAPPROVEMENT is given to the servants of the Lord Jesus.

3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

The ball is in your court.
You apparently like to be examined for your concept.

Was Paul a recipient of the GIFT or was he in a race to WIN what he should deserve ?
He said "the GIFT of God is eternal life." (Rom. 6:23)
So after believing into Christ why was he as one racing to win a prize?

You don't want to talk about that do you?

4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

I already told you our ground for there being judgment for reward or discpline for those saved.
You have not yet explained how the saved who "suffer loss" do so in the eternal age of perfection.
So far you have not yet explained whether "few lashes" or "many lashes" are administered in your perfect age right after the second
coming. And I didn't get a clear answer to how the disciplined servant can pay all he owed in eternity.

The best explanation is that before the age of eternity reward or punishment is a possibility to
those who are saved and come before the judgment seat of Christ.

Now before I close for the sake of those reading along: Some may say "But WHO can say they are a ful-grown Christian? Who can claim that they have gained all the Christ that is possible to gain?"

The point is a good one. But there is such a thing as what Paul practiced - to have a conscience void of offense before God and man
all through his Christian journey.

Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men. (Acts 24:16)
We do not know where we fair in terms of what the Lord expects of us unless we stubbornly resist transformation.
Paul said he was AWARE of nothing against himself and he kept a conscience clean.

For I am conscious of nothing against myself; but I am not justified in this, but He who examines me is the Lord.
So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God. (1 Cor. 4:4,5)

 

[sovereigngrace]

"Been there done that" does not address my questions. Let's see if you actually tackle them or
go with "argument by yawning."

So far no answer to whether "few lashes" to the servant or "many lashes" to the servant at the master's return
means eternal lashes. Show me why I should not believe that a specific period where discipline for Christians
following the second coming is not evidenced by Luke 12:45-48.

According to your opinion the second coming should be immediately followed by no lack of perfection in the saved.
So in this age of eternal perfection "few lashes" and "many lashes" are administered to the none watching servant ?

Again, no mention of some imaginary future "thousand years. You keep adding to Scripture. None of your supposed support passages mention some future millennium. You are stuck with one mistaken interpretation of a highly symbolic text in the most figurative of book in the Bible (Rev 20).

Luke 12:45-48 is simply an earthly story that carries a heavenly meaning. It is speaking of the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge both the wicked and the righteous before the one and only righteous throne of God. It confirms that there will be different degrees of reward - righteous and wicked, according to men's works.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-51, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth His coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

After telling us that “Heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The coming of the Lord is presented as the closing event of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return. Mark 13:31 correlates, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Luke says the same, in Luke 21:33, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away.” Again, the passing away of this current “heaven and earth” are carefully connected by Christ to His second coming. The timing mentioned here agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the heavens and earth passing away when the day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There must be a dispensation in which REWARD or DISAPPROVEMENT is given to the servants of the Lord Jesus.


The ball is in your court.
You apparently like to be examined for your concept.

Was Paul a recipient of the GIFT or was he in a race to WIN what he should deserve ?
He said "the GIFT of God is eternal life." (Rom. 6:23)
So after believing into Christ why was he as one racing to win a prize?

You don't want to talk about that do you?

I already told you our ground for there being judgment for reward or discpline for those saved.
You have not yet explained how the saved who "suffer loss" do so in the eternal age of perfection.
So far you have not yet explained whether "few lashes" or "many lashes" are administered in your perfect age right after the second
coming. And I didn't get a clear answer to how the disciplined servant can pay all he owed in eternity.

The best explanation is that before the age of eternity reward or punishment is a possibility to
those who are saved and come before the judgment seat of Christ.

Now before I close for the sake of those reading along: Some may say "But WHO can say they are a ful-grown Christian? Who can claim that they have gained all the Christ that is possible to gain?"

The point is a good one. But there is such a thing as what Paul practiced - to have a conscience void of offense before God and man
all through his Christian journey.

Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men. (Acts 24:16)
We do not know where we fair in terms of what the Lord expects of us unless we stubbornly resist transformation.
Paul said he was AWARE of nothing against himself and he kept a conscience clean.

For I am conscious of nothing against myself; but I am not justified in this, but He who examines me is the Lord.
So then do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then there will be praise to each from God. (1 Cor. 4:4,5)

The age to come is an age of perfection and blessing not discipline and purgatory.

It does not say anywhere that there is impending age or dispensation of “REWARD or DISAPPROVEMENT … given to the servants of the Lord Jesus.” There is a day of judgment that will see justice finally and fairly executed. What follows is either the new earth, or the Lake of Fire. It is the end of sin, death, time and corruption.

 

[oikonomia]

Again, no mention of some imaginary future "thousand years.

That it is imaginary is what you are trying to convince us of.

You keep adding to Scripture.

Show me what scripture I "added" to. I have a different interpretation of some verses which I believe is better than what you teach.
The accusation of me "adding" to scripture I reject.
But if you think I added to the text give me your example/s.

The Recovery Version which I usually quote puts in italics words in English supplied by translator for English clarity.
When I see words italicized I know that they are not in the Greek text but editorialy supplied.
Many English translations do this.

Let's look and see what italicized words are in the RcV's translation of Revelation 20:1-8.
The spacing is my own.


And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

None of your supposed support passages mention some future millennium. You are stuck with one mistaken interpretation of a highly symbolic text in the most figurative of book in the Bible (Rev 20).

I am "stuck" on what the Scripture appears to tell us, as well as I should be so "stuck."
Now below we get into to analysis we can examine.

Luke 12:45-48 is simply an earthly story that carries a heavenly meaning. It is speaking of the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge both the wicked and the righteous before the one and only righteous throne of God. It confirms that there will be different degrees of reward - righteous and wicked, according to men's works.

With respect, I disagree. The teaching of Luke12:45-48 is about the preparedness of HIS SERVANTS not the whole world in general.
The whole of the world are not His servants. Many do not own Him. Many do not think of Him as their master. They do not
think about Christ's second coming because they deem Him to be dead and gone.

The saved think of Him as thier master

Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has been well pleased to give you the kingdom.
He is speaking to "the little flock" of His believers.

Sell your possessions and give alms; make for yourselves purses which do not become old, an unfailing treasure in the heavens, where thief does not come near nor even moth corrupts;
Selling one's possesssions will not help the one who denies Jesus is the Lord, the Son of God, died and risen.

For where your treasure is, there also your heart will be.
Only His little flock cares for heaven's existence or the value related to it.

Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning,
Such advice means nothing to the one assuming Jesus is dead, not coming again, not expected ever to return.

And you be like men waiting for their own master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately.
Ask your neighborhood athiest / agnostic / non-Christian if he is expecting a pleasant bridegroom Jesus to return from a wedding feast.

Blessed are those slaves whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Truly I tell you that he will gird himself and will have them recline at table, and he will come to them and serve them.
Ask the unbeliever if she considers herself the slave of Lord Jesus / the servant of the Lord Jesus.

And if he comes in the second watch, or if in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
The teaching is aimed at the little flock of those EXPECTING all these things from their Lord.

So the follow up about the discipline of lashes is not about the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.
It is about the limited punishment of the sloppy, hypocritical servant in the "little flock" who got caught by His sudden second coming.

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. (vs. 45,46)

His discpline will be to be treated like the unbelievers.
His punishment is not to be the eternally perished unbeliever.

And the degree to which he should have known better influences the severighty of this punishment.
And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;
But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (vs. 46,47)

Now if you wish to borrow the teaching for a gospel message to unbelievers I would not insist that
the Holy Spirit could not use it. I would preach the gospel of FIRST they need to repent and be redeemed by the blood
of the Redeemer and receive Him in resurrection as their Lord. (Luke 24:44-48)

You have more from Matthew 24:35-51 to consider. But I will stop this reply here.