Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[oikonomia]

Listen, just because you say this does not make it so. You have not proved your case biblically. You have not addressed my 2 age argument yet. You have diverted around it.

Now I have about 17 paragraphs from you to carefully go through. And they start with a complaint about two diversions.
I am not aware of anything evaded. Perhaps not everything you wrote I directly responded to.

See if when I go through these 17 paragraphs you get some addressing of your past issues.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Now I have about 17 paragraphs from you to carefully go through. And they start with a complaint about two diversions.
I am not aware of anything evaded. Perhaps not everything you wrote I directly responded to.

See if when I go through these 17 paragraphs you get some addressing of your past issues.

Have a look at #57. I built upon my argument.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is “now” and there is “then” – there is no additional in-between age. There is no future millennial age. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say this, but then contradict your point here:

Calvary is plainly advanced here as the crucial turning point in relation to God’s sovereign dealings with the Gentiles – “the nations.” It was undoubtedly the decision hour in God’s plan of salvation for mankind, in that it widened out that glorious redemptive provision to the hopelessly deluded nations. Undoubtedly, it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

The change was the Cross. That was a turning point in the ages.

We are in the age to come that was foretold in the OT.

But the last age is not about the OT nor the NT. The Day of the Lord is about God Himself present on the earth. Not just letting humankind do their own thing, but they will be under the direct supervision of a physical God in the person of Jesus.

I would argue that Jesus was always physically able to appear on the earth being the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus appeared to Abraham. Jesus said before Abraham, He already was the I AM.

You claim the Cross was this huge age changing experience, then deny there was even an age change. Except for the fact we left the OT and embraced the NT. But at the Second Coming humans will not be under either Covenant. No one will be born in sin under the penalty of death.

Revelation 20 is clearly not about the NT church age. Nor is it this false inter advent age you accuse others of creating. The Cross was the change from the old to the new, because humans are still dealing with Adam's disobedience. The Second Coming does bring an end to Adam's disobedience. The Second Coming also brings the Day of the Lord where creation itself is in total concert with God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why do you say this, but then contradict your point here:

You make a sweeping statement with no effort no support your claim. Maybe it is because what I said was true.

The change was the Cross. That was a turning point in the ages.

We are in the age to come that was foretold in the OT.

But the last age is not about the OT nor the NT. The Day of the Lord is about God Himself present on the earth. Not just letting humankind do their own thing, but they will be under the direct supervision of a physical God in the person of Jesus.

I would argue that Jesus was always physically able to appear on the earth being the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus appeared to Abraham. Jesus said before Abraham, He already was the I AM.

You claim the Cross was this huge age changing experience, then deny there was even an age change. Except for the fact we left the OT and embraced the NT. But at the Second Coming humans will not be under either Covenant. No one will be born in sin under the penalty of death.

Revelation 20 is clearly not about the NT church age. Nor is it this false inter advent age you accuse others of creating. The Cross was the change from the old to the new, because humans are still dealing with Adam's disobedience. The Second Coming does bring an end to Adam's disobedience. The Second Coming also brings the Day of the Lord where creation itself is in total concert with God.

Who then are these billions of satanists that overrun your supposed future millennium? Obviously, they are the greatest bunch of hard-hearted religious hypocrites that have ever lived. After all, they supposedly sat under the righteous of Christ reign of Christ for 1000 years and then at the first sight of Satan rebel en-masse, rejecting Jesus and embracing Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

You make a sweeping statement with no effort no support your claim. Maybe it is because what I said was true.



Who then are these billions of satanists that overrun your supposed future millennium? Obviously, they are the greatest bunch of hard-hearted religious hypocrites that have ever lived. After all, they supposedly sat under the righteous of Christ reign of Christ for 1000 years and then at the first sight of Satan rebel en-masse, rejecting Jesus and embracing Satan.

Then you go off on a tangent, and will not stay on topic......

Do you hold to a change in ages at the Cross or not?

If you don't, then your millennium is some man made inter advent period, between the OT age and the NT age and you have yet to prove we are in the NT, because you only claim one single age since creation until the end of creation.

I already told you the group at the end were not alive the entire 1,000 years. They were of the last 2 generations born. The last 2 generations would represent the largest population group on the earth. Do you even know how many generations can be born over the span of 1,000 years?

Since this is your made up rebellion at the end of 2,000 years since the Cross, how many of your phony rebels have been alive since the Cross, and are now rebelling against the first century Gospel? You cannot even present an intelligent argument.

You argue and deny the Day of the Lord coming and radically changing heaven and earth. Yet you claim the same radical change happened at the Cross, but did not all in the same breadth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Then you go off on a tangent, and will not stay on topic......

Do you hold to a change in ages at the Cross or not?

If you don't, then your millennium is some man made inter advent period, between the OT age and the NT age and you have yet to prove we are in the NT, because you only claim one single age since creation until the end of creation.

I already told you the group at the end were not alive the entire 1,000 years. They were of the last 2 generations born. The last 2 generations would represent the largest population group on the earth. Do you even know how many generations can be born over the span of 1,000 years?

Since this is your made up rebellion at the end of 2,000 years since the Cross, how many of your phony rebels have been alive since the Cross, and are now rebelling against the first century Gospel? You cannot even present an intelligent argument.

You argue and deny the Day of the Lord coming and radically changing heaven and earth. Yet you claim the same radical change happened at the Cross, but did not all in the same breadth.

There was a change of covenant. Christ is the new creation. So, heaven came down to earth. When we encounter Christ, we experience a touch of eternity and the age to come . But the perfect glorified age to come has not arrived in all its full and final glory.

The perfection (or glorification) of the creature and creation is still future. It does not happen until Jesus comes in the future.

 

[oikonomia]

Listen, just because you say this does not make it so. You have not proved your case biblically. You have not addressed my 2 age argument yet. You have diverted around it.

The persistent contrast of the New Testament is between this present temporal evil age and a future eternal perfect age which is to come. The particular (and persistent) contrast between these ages is that of enduring and overcoming all the bondage of the Fall in life and time and the bliss of the eternal rest in the age to come.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:32, “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [Gr. aion or age), neither in the ‘world to come’ [Gr. mello or hereafter].”

By His wording, Jesus seems to take it for granted that the listener/reader grasps the two-age framework – time and eternity. This sober passage solemnly is directed towards the eternal consequences that the reprobate faces for the folly of his rebellion. What our Lord is essentially saying here is that those who speak against the Holy Ghost will never be forgiven. Basically, they will not be forgiven in time or in eternity. They never experience forgiveness. It is an eternal sin. They are eternally condemned.

This post will give attention to your interpretation of Matthew 12:32. Whereas you believe it is evidence of no possibility for
a kind of forgiveness after the close of the church age, I believe it shows the opposite of that.

It shows that in God's administration His forgivness is dispensational. It shows He has planned different ages. And all Matthew 12:32
shows in light of other plain statments is that there is another dispensational age following this church age. Whereas you believe it proves the age now now is immediately followed by the age of eternity I believe is only shows another age following this age. There is not enough there to prove there are only two ages - the church age followed by the eternal age.

After the second coming of Christ some saints will receive a reward and others will be disciplined, suffering loss though they
are still eternally saved. ( 1 Cor. 3:15,16)

This parable about the second coming of Christ shows that a believer who had unforgiveness must learn a lesson of dicsipline
UNTIL a termination point. That means not forever but temporarily. The parable closes with this example and warning.

Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me.
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?

And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed.
So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts. (Matt. 18:32-35)

1.) The teaching is about the Lord coming back to settle accounts with His servants . . . (HIS servants, not unbelievers)
For this reason the kingdom of the heavens has become like a king who desired to settle accounts with his slaves. (v.23)

2.) The master reminds the servant that he had forgiven him ALL his dept. The servant has eternal redemption from sins related to
the eternal age.
all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. (v.32b)

3.) However before his master returned to settle business the unforgiving servant would not forgive another fellow servant.
Then his fellow slave fell down and begged him, saying, Be patient with me and I will repay you.
But he would not; instead, he went away and threw him into prison until he would repay what was owed. (vs. 29,30)

4.) The discipline the unforgiving servant is to face is after the master's coming and temporary UNTIL he pays what he
owes. This is not paying for what the Lord paid for for eternal redemption. This is paying for what he owes concerning
his fitness to be useful to the master in his business upon return.
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?
And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. (vs. 33,34)

5.) The teaching was directed to the disciples, particularly Peter and to all of us who are unforgiving in the church age
effecting calling for a lesson to be learned of a temporary nature.
So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts. (v.35)

This implies there is an eternal forgiveness effecting our eternal salvation.
But there is a forgiveness following the second coming related to what we OWE the Master for the kingdom age.

It is impossible for us to pay the Lord for what He has done for us for eternity.
It is possible that we may owe the Lord for our unsuitability to Him in the next age because we did not learn
a lesson to likewise forgive our fellow Christian brother.

Matthew 12:32 only shows that following this age there is another age . . . period.
It shows it is serious to not have eternal forgiveness.
It shows there is another kind of forgiveness related to the age to come.

The forgiveness related to the kingdom age may require payment UNTIL a certain lesson is learned.

Only for space sake do I limit this post to this example. There are others.

 

[Timtofly]

There was a change of covenant. Christ is the new creation. So, heaven came down to earth. When we encounter Christ, we experience a touch of eternity and the age to come . But the perfect glorified age to come has not arrived in all its full and final glory.

The perfection (or glorification) of the creature and creation is still future. It does not happen until Jesus comes in the future.

And that is a change and restoration to this current creation.

Not a totally different creation replacing this current creation.


To fix the old, you don't remove it from existence. You fix it.

There was a change at the Cross. For full restoration, there will be another change at the Second Coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And that is a change and restoration to this current creation.

Not a totally different creation replacing this current creation.


To fix the old, you don't remove it from existence. You fix it.

There was a change at the Cross. For full restoration, there will be another change at the Second Coming.

I agree.

 

[oikonomia]

If the age to come was the millennial age (as Premillennialists argue), then damnation would be limited to a certain time-frame (similar to our current age) – namely a thousand years’ period after the coming of Christ. This would totally contradict the import of the Lord’s teaching. The fact is: this is a comprehensive description that covers the full gamut of man’s existence – now and forever. In short: there is no forgiveness attributed to the age to come for the wicked, that is because it is too late.

The unforgiving servant in Matt. 18:23-34 has punishement. It is not eternal. It is UNTIL a terminating point.
We have to face the fact that God has a number of ways to meet out punishement.
There is eternal retribution which is not to teach or improve or correct. It is vengence.
But there is in the age to come a punishement with a terminal point. It can last UNTIL something owed is deemed having been
paid up.

The following teaching is to Christians for whom the issue of eternal redemption has been solved.
From the point of their becomming a Christian they need to CONFESS thier sins to be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
As the light grows within sins are exposed. The Christian is made aware of where he is not godly.

Upon being made aware it is his responsibility to confess and bring those previously unknown sins under the blood.
Then the fellowship between him and the Lord is clear and the dispensing of God's life into him is not interrupted.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Now suppose this Christian with eternal redemption refuses to confess a certain sin made known to him AFTER he is saved?
If he stubbornly refuses to confess that sin in this age he will only have to confess it in the next age under more strident circumstances.
The dispensation has changed. The undelt with sin which he never confessed STILL must be dealt with.

This confession is related to the kingdom reward after the church age.
He cannot postpone the facing of his wrong living forever.
Ie. before the judgment seat of Christ - "What you refused to acknowledge that you might be cleansed from in the church age must now be dealt with in the suffering of loss in the kingdom age though you are still saved eternally."

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (1 Cor. 3:14-17)

The church that Christ said He would build is not only founded on a eternal positional holy standing
It must be built with dispostitional holiness grown in each Christian as the suitable building material.
The building of the temple is through the growth of Christ within. The more Christ grows within
making the believer dispositionally holy the more suitable he is as building material.

To build with inferior fallen natured is to mar and defile the temple.
the suffering of loss for building with materials which will not be able to stand the heat
of Christ's examination will be a measure of destruction. But it is not eternal destruction because
he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

While you obect to the concept of a temporary "outer darkness" look at the ground. Hebrews says that without holiness
no one will see the Lord. Dispositional sanctification can be postponed. It cannot be ignored forever.

Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord; (Heb. 12:14)

 

[Timtofly]

I agree.

No you don't. You deny this earth is restored. You claim it is burned up and dissolved.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No you don't. You deny this earth is restored. You claim it is burned up and dissolved.

Please do not ever talk on my behalf. You have no clue what I believe.

This current earth is regenerated by fire when Jesus comes. All corruption will be removed. There will be no Premil sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted earth, as you promote.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The unforgiving servant in Matt. 18:23-34 has punishement. It is not eternal. It is UNTIL a terminating point.
We have to face the fact that God has a number of ways to met out punishement.
There is eternal retribution which is not to teach or improve or correct. It is vengence.
But there is in the age to come a punishement with a terminal point. It can last UNTIL something owed is deemed having been
paid up.

The following teaching is to Christians for whom the issue of eternal redemption has been solved.
From the point of their becomming a Christian they need to CONFESS thier sins to be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
As the light grows within sins are exposed. The Christian is made aware of where he is not godly.

Upon being made aware it is his responsibility to confess and bring those unknown sins under the blood.
Then the fellowship between him and the Lord is clear and the dispensing of God's life into him is not interrupted.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Now suppose this Christian with eternal redemption refuses to confess a certain sin made known to him AFTER he is saved?
If he stubbornly refuses to confess that sin in this age he will only have to confess it in the next age under more strident circumstances.
The dispensation has changed. The undwelt with sin which he never confessed STILL must be dealt with.

This confession is related to the kingdom reward after the church age.
He cannot postpone the facing of his wrong living forever.
Ie. before the judgment seat of Christ - "What you refused to acknowledge that you might be cleansed from in the church age must now be dealt with in the suffering of loss in the kingdom age though you are still saved eternally."

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (1 Cor. 3:14-17)

The church that Christ said He would build is not only founded on a eternal positional holy standing
It must be built with dispostitional holiness grown in each Christian as the suitable building material.
The building of the temple is through the growth of Christ within. The more Christ grows within
making the believe dispositionally holy the more suitable he is as building material.

To build with inferior fallen natured is to mar and defile the temple.
the suffering of loss for building with materials which will not be able to stand the heat
of Christ's examination will be a measure of destruction. But it is not eternal destruction because
he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

While you obect to the concept of a temporary "outer darkness". But Hebrews says that without holiness
no one will see the Lord. DIspositional sanctification can be postponed. It cannot be ignored forever.

Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord; (Heb. 12:14)

The judgment of both the righteous and the wicked when Jesus comes is eternal. There is not another temporal corrupt age restarted when Jesus comes.

 

[Timtofly]

Please do not ever talk on my behalf. You have no clue what I believe.

This current earth is regenerated by fire when Jesus comes. All corruption will be removed. There will be mo Premil sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted earth, as you promote.

So you post things online, but you don't believe a word you post?

The earth is restored and then ruled over for a thousand years. Your argument about a sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted Day of the Lord which is to be kept Holy is blasphemy against the Word of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you post things online, but you don't believe a word you post?

The earth is restored and then ruled over for a thousand years. Your argument about a sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted Day of the Lord which is to be kept Holy is blasphemy against the Word of God.

You try to make Rev 20 the NHNE. But Rev 20 is not the NHNE, that comes after. The millennium is overrun by the wicked "as the sand of the sea" and is the complete oppose to the NHNE. This negates your thesis.

 

[oikonomia]

The judgment of both the righteous and the wicked when Jesus comes is eternal. There is not another temporal corrupt age restarted when Jesus comes.

But this is just a pronoucement sovereigngrace. Just a grand dogmatic pronouncement is simply not enough for
some of us. But it does send a signal - "Don't waste your time speaking otherwise."

We certainly agree I think that Jesus is Lord, resurrected, coming, the Redeemer and Savior imparting ultimately
the gift of eternal life. I count it a miracle of His mercy that we actually believe these things. Praise Him.

 

[oikonomia]

According to Romans 8 the creation will be freed from the bondage of vanity and corruption because the sons of
God are manifested. The sons of God are manifested FIRST as the cause, the catalyst for the creation to follow them into
freedom of the glory of God.

See if this is not confirmed by this passage.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.
For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:18-23)

Question:

What if by the time of the close of the church age not all of the children of God have reached the maturity of sons?
The number to be evangelized is complete but the number to reach maturity is not yet full.
What if there remains some dear children of God who still remain immature, under transformed, fallen short of building up together and
growth in life?

Then those who are ready to be manifested must not be held back. But the creation also may not enjoy a total
freedom because the numerical total of sons of God have not yet been manifested.

Resolution:

A remedial time of the thousand year kingdom still allows God to perfect the unperfected children to
maturity. Then when there is no more immature ones left the complete rennovation into creation's freedom will climax.

The Apostle Peter seems to skip totally over this period. His burden to do so is understandable. But other
passages do not do so. Even passages from the mouth of the Lord in His parables do not do so.

Here we see Peter skip over any intervening age right into the new heaven and new earth.

2 Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2P 3:8But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.

2P 3:9The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance.

2P 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

2P 3:11Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

2P 3:12Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?

2P 3:13But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Timtofly]

You try to make Rev 20 the NHNE. But Rev 20 is not the NHNE, that comes after. The millennium is overrun by the wicked "as the sand of the sea" and is the complete oppose to the NHNE. This negates your thesis.

The Day of the Lord is the removal of sin and death. That is a biblical new heaven and earth restored from out of the bondage of sin and death. You know, like the way sin and death in your reality was totally removed at the Cross?

You seem to claim no one has sinned nor died since the Cross. No one has been born in Adam's fallen image after the Cross, right? The transgression was removed, and the earth has had everlasting righteousness. No one gets sick nor their body decays with age. The former things were all wiped away, since the Cross. Israel has been the model nation, and all the nations have sent yearly representatives to Israel to give honor to Jesus as King over all the nations since the Cross. That is your current Day of the Lord.

The NHNE per Revelation 21 is not a restoration of this reality. It is a totally different reality that seems to make this reality a summer cottage compared to the Burj Khalifa. This reality will cease, as it is finite having a beginning and an end. The NHNE is also finite as far as we have been told, as it has a defined beginning, like this creation had a defined beginning in Genesis 1.

I am not trying to make Revelation 20 the NHNE. I am stating creation is restored to the point it was on the 6th day waiting for the Day of the Lord to finish out the remainder of current reality before the NHNE begin. The restoration you claim has been the reality since the Cross. You are the one trying to make the last 2 millennia the Day of the Lord.

You do realize that God created this reality to be perfect and without sin? This reality was not just created to be 6,000 years of pain and suffering, sin and disobedience. Unlike those last days scoffers point of view, who only see creation as one long disappointment without any interaction with God, there was a Day of the Lord before sin, and there will be a Day of the Lord after sin.

 

[oikonomia]

The earth is restored and then ruled over for a thousand years. Your argument about a sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted Day of the Lord which is to be kept Holy is blasphemy against the Word of God.

There is no need for a exaggerated accusation like this.
I don't think anyone here has committed "blasphemy against the Word of God."

There are different understandings as to how the jigsaw puzzle all the prophecies possibly fit together.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no need for a exaggerated accusation like this.
I don't think anyone here has committed "blasphemy against the Word of God."

There are different understandings as to how the jigsaw puzzle all the prophecies possibly fit together.

You mean no one should respond to another poster's exaggeration as blasphemy?

I am pretty sure the poster understands clearly how to get a person emotionally riled up.

That needs to be called out, and so does denigrating God's Word in a manner that purposely riles up one emotionally.

No, I am not emotionally riled up. That post has been posted so many times over the last 3+ years, it has literally no value, but like a worn tshirt with a bad logo, it is put on to see if it still fits every few days. Still does not mean it cannot be called out every once in a while.