Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[oikonomia]

And no Christian go into "the outer darkness." These are all your own ideas. You are building an argument on sand.

Do you believe that some Christians could be in darkness today ?

I recently saw a news video about Christian father and son pastors who both were bitten by rattle snakes and died.
Why? They conducted their worship meetings dancing around with poisoness snakes to prove they could not die.
They based their practice on a verse in Mark's gospel giving them confidence that they could drink poison and not die or
not die from snake bites. (Mark 16:18) I don't see it teaching us to go out of our way to showoff foolishly.

Nevermind for a moment about the outer darkness of the kingdom age.
Do you think some Christians could be in darkness now?

 

[oikonomia]

Not so! After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

Have you known any Christians to go to their graves never having forgiven a certain offense?
Have you known any Christians who died never confessing that a certain long held lifestyle they lived was a sin?

Do you think the Lord must wait until these who died natural, immature, fleshy, and carnal will mature before
He brings in a kingdom to the earth?

This is the reason there is an intervening 1,000 years FROM His return to earth and the new heaven and new earth.
Some of His Body will still need time for His dispensing into them for full subjective sanctification.

There is something of "the divine show must go on" (so to speak).
Such of us in abject defeat will not be prepared to be His army following from heaven at the battle of Armageddon.

The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19.

I agree.

There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends.

Are you sure there are none sparred to come from that time ?
Look at what Christ says to some not died and resurrected but living on earth
at the time of Him reigning from the Holy Land.

And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You,
or thirsty and have given You a drink?
And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You?

And when have we seen You sick or in prison and have come to You?
And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me.

Notice the criterea by which these living nations are allowed into the kingdom has to do with how they
treated those during the great tribulation not knowing they were the brothers of the Son of Man.

They are wiped. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

That goes for the armies there. Do you believe the only humans on earth will all be part of those armies?
What about those who gave glory to God when they saw the two prophets of God resurrect and ascend to heaven?
Notice it is at the second of the three final woes.

Please read carefully as I also do with your quotations.

And those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. And after the three and a half days, the breath of life out of God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them.

And they heard a loud voice out of heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake, and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. (Rev. 11:10-14)

 

[oikonomia]

• Billions of sinners who became sinless as soon as they entered this future millennium suddenly become the grossest and most foolish bunch of sinners ever to live as they en-mass become Satan worshipers as soon as 1,000 years is up.

If some sparred sheep among the living nations are allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom they
need healing, shepherding, guiding, and restoring. Time is required for this. And in one thousand years
I believe they could be restored to be as Adam was before he fell.

Instantaneousness in this I have not taught. That's your beef with someone else.

After the 1,000 years the Bible does say that Satan will be loosed from his prison for a little while
Do you know how long that little while is? I do not.

And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:3)

• Corruptible mortals interact with glorified believers for 1000 years+.

Restored sheep of the nations interact with sons of God with glorified bodies.
Why not soveriegngrace?

Look at Second Thessalonians 1:10 -
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

Do you think there could not be some sparred nations who marvel at the glorified sons of God in His second coming?
I believe so.

• The old covenant ceremonial arrangement is restarted in full, including the feasts and festivals, the universal observance of Jewish customs, the return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) or the restarting of the old covenant priesthood in the future.

The point has been noticed that part of the education of the nations seems to include old Jewish customs.
This is a good point. But in 1,000 years of restoration it may be conceivable that some kind of education along these
lines might occur to these total heathen spared nations.

At this time I do not know enough to speak to this point yet.

• Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.

Collectively, these expectations portray a future millennium that is not taught in the Bible.

So then according to your view, Today -

1.) Christ has physically returned to earth in glory?
2.) The first resurrection has passed ?
3.) Satan today is bound and deceives no one?
4.) Whether sanctification has completed or not we all are co-reigning with Christ over the nations as co-kings?
5.) The marriage dinner of the Lamb has already occurred?
6.) All the verses about "a thousand years" (Rev. 20) are anti-climaxes which were all fulfilled at the end of the first millennia A.D?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ultimately I fully agree that all in Christ but not eventually overcome.
But how do you think about these admonishments from Paul to the church in Corinth?

Already then it is altogether a defeat to you that you have lawsuits with one another.
Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?

But you wrong and defraud, and this your brothers.(1 Cor. 6:6,7)

But this does not say what you are saying.

 

[oikonomia]

But this does not say what you are saying.

Why not?
If something is a defeat to the dear Christians there, for that time at least they were defeated.

Before the judgment seat of Christ we all OUGHT to have not lived defeated like this.
But the truth of the matter is is that there will be some defeated.

In the two parables out of the mouth of the Lord Himself
we also could discribe the unprofitable servants as having been defeated.

It is not an eternal defeat. It is not an eternal defeat.

 

[oikonomia]

Sovereigngrace are you going to take on a few explanations
to these assumptions I feel you may have?

1.) Christ has physically returned to earth in glory?
2.) The first resurrection has passed ?
3.) Satan today is bound and deceives no one?
4.) Whether sanctification has completed or not we all are co-reigning with Christ over the nations as co-kings?
5.) The marriage dinner of the Lamb has already occurred?
6.) All the verses about "a thousand years" (Rev. 20) are anti-climaxes which were all fulfilled at the end of the first millennia A.D?

 

[sovereigngrace]

If some sparred sheep among the living nations are allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom they
need healing, shepherding, guiding, and restoring. Time is required for this. And in one thousand years
I believe they could be restored to be as Adam was before he fell.

Instantaneousness in this I have not taught. That's your beef with someone else.

After the 1,000 years the Bible does say that Satan will be loosed from his prison for a little while
Do you know how long that little while is? I do not.

And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:3)


Restored sheep of the nations interact with sons of God with glorified bodies.
Why not soveriegngrace?

Look at Second Thessalonians 1:10 -
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

Do you think there could not be some sparred nations who marvel at the glorified sons of God in His second coming?
I believe so.


The point has been noticed that part of the education of the nations seems to include old Jewish customs.
This is a good point. But in 1,000 years of restoration it may be conceivable that some kind of education along these
lines might occur to these total heathen spared nations.

At this time I do not know enough to speak to this point yet.

So then according to your view, Today -

1.) Christ has physically returned to earth in glory?
2.) The first resurrection has passed ?
3.) Satan today is bound and deceives no one?
4.) Whether sanctification has completed or not we all are co-reigning with Christ over the nations as co-kings?
5.) The marriage dinner of the Lamb has already occurred?
6.) All the verses about "a thousand years" (Rev. 20) are anti-climaxes which were all fulfilled at the end of the first millennia A.D?

1.) Christ has not physically returned to earth in glory. That occurs at the climactic second coming.
2.) The first resurrection has passed. That is what Jesus realized.
3.) Satan is bound. He can no longer prevent the Gentiles from coming to faith. The light is shining, the deception is lifted and the ignorance is gone.
4.) We are currently kings and priests in Christ. We are seated in heavenly places. We rule and reign with Christ in life and in death.
5.) The marriage dinner of the Lamb occurs at the climactic second coming.
6.) All the verses about "a thousand years" are limited to a highly symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture. It is a indefinite term.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But this does not say what you are saying.

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21).

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Have you known any Christians to go to their graves never having forgiven a certain offense?
Have you known any Christians who died never confessing that a certain long held lifestyle they lived was a sin?

Do you think the Lord must wait until these who died natural, immature, fleshy, and carnal will mature before
He brings in a kingdom to the earth?

This is the reason there is an intervening 1,000 years FROM His return to earth and the new heaven and new earth.
Some of His Body will still need time for His dispensing into them for full subjective sanctification.

There is something of "the divine show must go on" (so to speak).
Such of us in abject defeat will not be prepared to be His army following from heaven at the battle of Armageddon.

I agree.

Are you sure there are none sparred to come from that time ?
Look at what Christ says to some not died and resurrected but living on earth
at the time of Him reigning from the Holy Land.

And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You,
or thirsty and have given You a drink?
And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You?

And when have we seen You sick or in prison and have come to You?
And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me.

Notice the criterea by which these living nations are allowed into the kingdom has to do with how they
treated those during the great tribulation not knowing they were the brothers of the Son of Man.


That goes for the armies there. Do you believe the only humans on earth will all be part of those armies?
What about those who gave glory to God when they saw the two prophets of God resurrect and ascend to heaven?
Notice it is at the second of the three final woes.

Please read carefully as I also do with your quotations.

And those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. And after the three and a half days, the breath of life out of God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them.

And they heard a loud voice out of heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake, and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. (Rev. 11:10-14)

The beast’s army is not some physical elite nationalistic military coming against some physical demon-possessed leader at the end. This is a spiritual army controlled by Satan and energized by the best arrayed against the people of God that contains all the wicked.

Revelation 19:19 declares, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

Just like Christ’s army includes all the elect, the beast’s confederate army includes all the wicked. These are the only two peoples in Revelation listed under these two opposing influences.

The beast’s confederate army is not a select group of soldiers coming against earthly Jerusalem, neither is Megiddo even mentioned in Revelation 19.

Revelation 13:3-4 states, “all the world wondered [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled] after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast.”

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

We are given much illumination and help in establishing the identity of, and the extent of those who pay homage to, the beast in this passage. In fact, it is extremely difficult to ignore the extraordinary influence of the beast outlined in the whole book of Revelation. The aforementioned verse tells us that his/its adherents include every single person “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore, the beast specifically and symbolically must relate to some all-embracing Christ-rejecting influence or body that controls the affections of the sum-total of the non-elect, those that will be eternally damned. I believe it is talking about the Christ-rejecting world.

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled], whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

We cannot in anyway underestimate the power and sway of the beast. His allegiance is comprehensive. In fact, every single human being whose name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the earth ends up submitting to him.

The beast commands the allegiance of all who are not in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world (therefore all the unelect). The beast is obviously the antithesis to the Spirit of God ("the Spirit of truth") who bring people to Christ. The beast must be the spirit of antichrist (also known as "the spirit of error") who bring people to Satan.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation.

They are represented as 2 armies that are in conflict. God's army returns with Him, the devil's are destroyed by Christ's Coming. You are trying to limit what the Holy Spirit is saying. All flesh is destroyed here as it was in Noah's day and in Sodom. There were no survivors. You are side-stepping the actual wording of Revelation 19.

 

[oikonomia]

1.) Christ has not physically returned to earth in glory. That occurs at the climactic second coming.

Thankyou. I believe the same.

2.) The first resurrection has passed. That is what Jesus realized.

The explanation is sparse. However if the resurrection described in Revelation 20:6 -
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years - then where are the resurrected martyred Christians now serving on the globe in this service?

3.) Satan is bound. He can no longer prevent the Gentiles from coming to faith. The light is shining, the deception is lifted and the ignorance is gone.

So when Paul says that Satan has blinded the minds of some unbelievers, this information is incorrect?

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing,
In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers
that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them. (2 Cor. 4:2,3)

Did this become an impossibility on earth since the Apostle Paul concuded his ministry?

4.) We are currently kings and priests in Christ.

I do believe in the priesthood of the believers. I do believe Paul too was a ministering priest of the gospel.

That I might be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, a laboring priest of the gospel of God, in order that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, having been sanctified in the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 15:16)

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the virtues of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (1 Pet. 2:9)

Where on the globe are Christians reigning kings shepherding the nations with a iron rod ?
I do not mean a strong leader here or there who also happens to be a Christian.
I mean virtually all the saints who have been saved by Christ - ALL reigning as kings on earth?

We are seated in heavenly places. We rule and reign with Christ in life and in death.

Now when I said some Corinthians Paul told were in defeat you said that that is not the meaning.
Ironically, you call for our seating with Christ in the heavens spiritually is this reigning on the earth as kings.

Now it is my turn to say that is not what it means.
We of course should enjoy Christ's grace now and REIGN in life.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

I cannot go out on the street and inform any passerby that I am their king reigning over them.
And Paul certainly reigned in life demonstrably as an example. But he himself reserved a reigning to a FUTURE time
saying IF certain conditions are met we WILL reign with Him.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; (2 Tim. 2:12)

How come he didn't write "We are all enduring and are presently reigning with him" ?

5.) The marriage dinner of the Lamb occurs at the climactic second coming.

We have no disagreement there.
The disagreement is Revelation 19 shows a remnant at this celebration before the millennial kingdom.
Therefore the entire universal church as the wife of the Lamb is not seen until the new heaven and new earth.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

Have yet all things in the creation passed away and been created by God new yet? No.

And please do not argue that this is unbelief that if anyone is in Christ there is a new creation.
So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

That we may serve God in newness of spirit is one thing.
Serving God in a totally new outward environment, ie. a new heaven and a new earth, is another thing.

But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter (Rom. 7:6)

6.) All the verses about "a thousand years" are limited to a highly symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture. It is a indefinite term.

This is an interpretation of some. However "when the thousand years are completed" points to a point in time.
If you make it entirely symbolic you run into problems. There is not definite "WHEN". It is left in allegorical ambiguity

Paul speaks of a span of time during which Christ by process brings everyone under subjection.
The last enemy to be eradicated is death.

Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. (1 Cor. 15:24-26)

Is this moment in the past already practically?
Is this moment in the future "WHEN" when some "UNTIL" is concluded? (Rev. 20:5,7)

I believe Revelation is indeed a book of signs. (Rev. 1:1) But we should not allegorize to the point
that other clear unsymbolic teaching in the New Testament is rendered nonsensical.

What of the modernist how says the NT is SO symbolic that Christ is not really God's Son
who literally died and rose? A line has to be drawn sometimes on these things.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thankyou. I believe the same.

Good!

The explanation is sparse. However if the resurrection described in Revelation 20:6 -
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years - then where are the resurrected martyred Christians now serving on the globe in this service?

The best way to shed light on any challenging or figurative passage is to bring other relevant passages unto the table and interpret Scripture with Scripture. This removes theological speculation and any need for private interpretation.

In understanding the much-debated and highly-symbolic Revelation 20, one should especially bring as much clear and related Scripture into one’s analyze. That is because there is such a stark divergence in how we should interpret the passage. It is so serious that Premils have felt the need to invent another age in-between this age and the age to come. So, we should bring all the evidence we can to help us dissect this obscure passage.

Please follow the color coding:

Revelation 1:5-6: “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

Revelation 20:6 mirrors this. It describes the same first resurrection (that of Christ) and it shows the same result (God’s people ruling and reigning as priest kings in and through Christ).

Revelation 20:6: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Premillennialists may be confused by who or what the first resurrection was and is, but that was not the case with the first century Church. They knew without any doubt that the resurrection of Christ was the first in time, order and importance. It was the central victorious element of the Christian faith. Without it the cross would have meant nothing.

Our spiritual position “in Christ” since Calvary and since the resurrection qualifies the believer to partake in the fruit of His victory over every single enemy.

Acts 26:23 declares, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos)."

The first resurrection opened up the Gospel to the nations!

We should note in this passage, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ. It is only through this powerful event that the deception that smothered the Gentiles was lifted. Moreover, the binding of Satan is expressly connected to the enlightenment of the Gentiles (or) ethnos.

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles.

Just like blindness and darkness are attributed to the Gentiles (without qualification) prior to the cross, it didn’t mean that every single Gentile was blind and in darkness. Scripture often described the Gentiles as a collective whole. That did not mean the Gentiles were all the same. Scripture, like us, makes generalities. Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry the heathen nations were viewed as being in wholesale ignorant and therefore outside of God’s plan of salvation. Could I suggest this was simply a general observation about the overall condition of the Gentiles as a broad mass, not an attempt to represent every single Gentile?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So when Paul says that Satan has blinded the minds of some unbelievers, this information is incorrect?

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing,
In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers
that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them. (2 Cor. 4:2,3)

The OT repeatedly describes the Gentiles as being in darkness. That did not mean there were none saved. It also promised a day when the Gentiles would be enlightened. That did not mean all would be saved. No. These are common biblical generalities.

The prophets looked forward to the Messiah who would come lift the ignorance, pay the penalty for sin, and defeat the grave, and strip Satan of his global control, and enlighten the Gentiles.

The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifted the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission, the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. Those Gentiles who embrace the Gospel are no longer deceived. They are enlightened. The faithful from every nation on earth are brought into a personal faith in Christ, experience the joy of sins forgiven and are grafted into the Israel of God. They no longer walk in darkness.

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the Gentiles éthnee, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; in him shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

Romans 16:25-26 says, “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Here is another general statement showing the removal of the ignorance.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The nations that were once saturated in complete heathenism and gross idolatry, knowing nothing of the grace of God and the need of repentance, would now receive the Gospel through the Cross of Christ. Surely the Premillennialist would not attempt to suggest that this passage is alluding to every single person in every single nation throughout the world at that time? Nor, could they say that this reference to the “nations” (plural) was meant to encompass the natural “nation” (singular) of Israel, which up until the cross was the sole national custodian of the grace of God.

It is manifestly clear from the actual testimony of this specific reading that the Church had now entered into a new dispensation, a period in which the good news of salvation was to be offered to the Gentiles. No longer would the pagan nations of the world be drowned in complete darkness and be utterly deceived by the devil, as before. The de-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary. Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Calvary was the central transaction that caused the Gentiles to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ. That cruel event graciously precipitated the liberation of “the (once wholly blinded) nations” causing notable hurt (as predicted in Genesis 3:15) to the plans of the devil and his once overwhelming hold upon the heathen. The purpose and effect of Christ’s dying unquestionably enabled the Gospel to spread to “the Gentiles” and allowed “the blessings of Abraham” and “the promise of the Spirit” to become a real possession of “the nations.”

Calvary is plainly advanced here as the crucial turning point in relation to God’s sovereign dealings with the Gentiles – “the nations.” It was undoubtedly the decision hour in God’s plan of salvation for mankind, in that it widened out that glorious redemptive provision to the hopelessly deluded nations. Undoubtedly, it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the Old Testament. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Revelation 20 is saying.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does Scripture not outline that following Calvary the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ went out onto the Gentiles (ethnos)? And that while individual Gentiles can still be deceived or attacked by Satan, the collective veil that once deluded them has now been remove. Satan cannot stop the Gospel going to the nations as he once did. Since the cross, the Gospel has spread throughout the heathen nations of this world, something that never happened previous. However, this doesn't stop individuals being personally deceived.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often make sweep in general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

 

[oikonomia]

We are given much illumination and help in establishing the identity of, and the extent of those who pay homage to, the beast in this passage. In fact, it is extremely difficult to ignore the extraordinary influence of the beast outlined in the whole book of Revelation. The aforementioned verse tells us that his/its adherents include every single person “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore, the beast specifically and symbolically must relate to some all-embracing Christ-rejecting influence or body that controls the affections of the sum-total of the non-elect, those that will be eternally damned. I believe it is talking about the Christ-rejecting world.

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled], whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

We cannot in anyway underestimate the power and sway of the beast. His allegiance is comprehensive. In fact, every single human being whose name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the earth ends up submitting to him.

The beast commands the allegiance of all who are not in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world (therefore all the unelect). The beast is obviously the antithesis to the Spirit of God ("the Spirit of truth") who bring people to Christ. The beast must be the spirit of antichrist (also known as "the spirit of error") who bring people to Satan.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation.

They are represented as 2 armies that are in conflict. God's army returns with Him, the devil's are destroyed by Christ's Coming. You are trying to limit what the Holy Spirit is saying. All flesh is destroyed here as it was in Noah's day and in Sodom. There were no survivors. You are side-stepping the actual wording of Revelation 19.

There are some good points here which are helpful.
And there are some points I would teach differently probably.

Now Revelation 17:8 (with 13:8) I usually take as the Lamb Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. And His is the book of life.

And all those dwelling on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

But it could be as you teach - everyone's whose name is in the book of life was written there before they were born - all of them.
I lean towards God's intention that Christ be the Redeemer to give divine life to whom He saves, a plan from the foundation of the world.

 

[oikonomia]

The NT repeatedly describes the enlightening of the Gentiles. The ignorance is finally lifted. How you do not see that is baffling. It seems like, your doctrine requires that you reject that great truth.

The criticism frankly makes no sense to me.
It creates a strawman very easy to knock down.

Ie. "Why you do not see that the light of the Gospel has come to the Gentiles? How heretical!"

It is a strawman which I don't feel the need to seem to defend.

For example, Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the Gentiles éthnee, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; in him shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

He preached that they might TURN . . . from darkness to light.

To open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (Acts 26:18)

Now to his churches under his care he says they have been delivered from darkness and into the light.
It is the allotted portion to those who have received the gospel.
In the same way the good land was allotted in portions to those who entered into it.

Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light;
Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, (Col. 1:12,13)

It is not embracing the straw boogy man you erected to say not ALL the Gentiles receive the light available to them.
We preach the Gospel so that they WOULD be delivered into it. The choice to or not to is with them.

Romans 16:25-26 says, “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

It is a strawman argument to suggest that recognizing that SOME Gentiles believed and SOME Gentiles have not yet (and may never)
are not in the enjoyment of the marvelous light of truth.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the virtues of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (1 Pet. 2:9)

The priesthood of the BELIEVER is that. It is not the universal priesthood of unbelievers. Nor is it the priesthood of disbelieving Gentiles.

You cannot bulster your A-mill argument by trying to put a guilt trip on Christians that realize not all Gentiles have this
light of Christ within.

Here is another general statement showing the removal of the ignorance.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The Apostle Paul equates the blessing of Abraham with receiving the Spirit.

In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14)

We HOPE that all the Gentiles would receive the Spirit of Christ by faith.
And we obey the Lord to sow the good news in hope.

The nations that were once saturated in complete heathenism and gross idolatry, knowing nothing of the grace of God and the need of repentance, would now receive the Gospel through the Cross of Christ.

You don't seriously think I oppose this concept because I believe in a future millennial kingdom?
So then, believing in a future millennial kingdom is somehow not wanting the Gospel or Redemption to be preached to the "heathen" ?

Ie. Pre-mill - an unloving heart to announce the gospel.
A-mill - a good Christian heart to announce the gospel.

These are ineffective tactics to persuade brothers in the Lord to give up expectation of a future millennial kingdom.

. The de-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary. Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

I am going to resist the temptation to argue on behalf of the Devil.

Nothing about the expectation of a future millennial period means -
1.) Christ has not redeemed people.
2.) The Spirit of Christ is not available to those who receive Him.

The Gospel says "As many as RECEIVED Him." It is not as many as recevied Him or rejected Him.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

Realizing that some will not receive Him and not receive the promise of the Spirit to our dismay, is not
teaching the Gospel is not available to all who will receive Christ.

Calvary was the central transaction that caused the Gentiles to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ.

Nothing I said rejects that.
Belief in a future millennial thousand years kingdom before the eternal age does no damage to "the glorious Gospel of Christ".

The purpose and effect of Christ’s dying unquestionably enabled the Gospel to spread to “the Gentiles” and allowed “the blessings of Abraham” and “the promise of the Spirit” to become a real possession of “the nations.”

As many as RECEIVED HIM . . . to them He gave authority to become children of God.

"Oh, you don't want everyone to receive Him? You don't want the Gentiles to receive the Spirit?" That is a slanderous thought.

A-mill is not "More for the Gentiles being saved then thou."

Calvary is plainly advanced here as the crucial turning point in relation to God’s sovereign dealings with the Gentiles – “the nations.” It was undoubtedly the decision hour in God’s plan of salvation for mankind, in that it widened out that glorious redemptive provision to the hopelessly deluded nations.

And one has to be A-mill to perceive that?
One who is expecting the manifestation of the presently invisible kingdom of the heavens doesn't see it that way?

Undoubtedly, it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

You make a false dichotomy.
Ie. "If the cross was a critical event in God's economy there is none other."
Ie. "If you believe in a millennial kingdom in the future you fail to see the damage done to the devil's influence."

These reasons for not believing in a millennial period before the age of eternity are not impressive to me.
They impress you?

Acts says heaven must receive Christ UNTIL a future time of restoration.
And First Corinthians says He will reign UNTIL all enemies are subdued.

So that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He may send the Christ, who has been previously appointed for you, Jesus, Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old. (Acts 3:20,21)

Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. (1 Cor. 15:24,26)

Nothing about this undermines the cross, denies the Spirit to the Gentiles, dampens the great commision, nullifies the grace of Christ,
does damage to the priesthood of the believer, or anything you sound an alarm about.

A millennial period before the new heaven and new earth may introduce some things difficult to fully explain.
I think its denial involves probably more difficulties.

It is understandable to me that as the early apostles died and the years of passed and Christ did not yet physically return,
that a belief would emmerge that maybe all this reigning on the earth was NOW in the church age.

Of course the hopelessly politically involved Roman Catholic Church might see their system as the
manifestation of Christians (certainly the pope) as ruling over the known world.
So an a-millennial theology developed to rationalize His long awaited return and the political power of Christiandom
as the Roman Empire grasped at the "Church" to govern the world.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is a strawman which I don't feel the need to seem to defend.

Premils have to avoid these questions because they expose their narrow (and mistaken) reading of Revelation 20. They attribute much to that text that is unsupported elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it contradicts the ongoing narrative of Scripture.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The criticism frankly makes no sense to me.
It creates a strawman very easy to knock down.

Ie. "Why you do not see that the light of the Gospel has come to the Gentiles? How heretical!"

It is a strawman which I don't feel the need to seem to defend.


He preached that they might TURN . . . from darkness to light.

To open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (Acts 26:18)

Now to his churches under his care he says they have been delivered from darkness and into the light.
It is the allotted portion to those who have received the gospel.
In the same way the good land was allotted in portions to those who entered into it.

Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light;
Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, (Col. 1:12,13)

It is not embracing the straw boogy man you erected to say not ALL the Gentiles receive the light available to them.
We preach the Gospel so that they WOULD be delivered into it. The choice to or not to is with them.


It is a strawman argument to suggest that recognizing that SOME Gentiles believed and SOME Gentiles have not yet (and may never)
are not in the enjoyment of the marvelous light of truth.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession, so that you may tell out the virtues of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (1 Pet. 2:9)

The priesthood of the BELIEVER is that. It is not the universal priesthood of unbelievers. Nor is it the priesthood of disbelieving Gentiles.

You cannot bulster your A-mill argument by trying to put a guilt trip on Christians that realize not all Gentiles have this
light of Christ within.


The Apostle Paul equates the blessing of Abraham with receiving the Spirit.

In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14)

We HOPE that all the Gentiles would receive the Spirit of Christ by faith.
And we obey the Lord to sow the good news in hope.


You don't seriously think I oppose this concept because I believe in a future millennial kingdom?
So then, believing in a future millennial kingdom is somehow not wanting the Gospel or Redemption to be preached to the "heathen" ?

Ie. Pre-mill - an unloving heart to announce the gospel.
A-mill - a good Christian heart to announce the gospel.

These are ineffective tactics to persuade brothers in the Lord to give up expectation of a future millennial kingdom.


I am going to resist the temptation to argue on behalf of the Devil.

Nothing about the expectation of a future millennial period means -
1.) Christ has not redeemed people.
2.) The Spirit of Christ is not available to those who receive Him.

The Gospel says "As many as RECEIVED Him." It is not as many as recevied Him or rejected Him.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

Realizing that some will not receive Him and not receive the promise of the Spirit to our dismay, is not
teaching the Gospel is not available to all who will receive Christ.


Nothing I said rejects that.
Belief in a future millennial thousand years kingdom before the eternal age does no damage to "the glorious Gospel of Christ".


As many as RECEIVED HIM . . . to them He gave authority to become children of God.

"Oh, you don't want everyone to receive Him? You don't want the Gentiles to receive the Spirit?" That is a slanderous thought.

A-mill is not "More for the Gentiles being saved then thou."


And one has to be A-mill to perceive that?
One who is expecting the manifestation of the presently invisible kingdom of the heavens doesn't see it that way?


You make a false dichotomy.
Ie. "If the cross was a critical event in God's economy there is none other."
Ie. "If you believe in a millennial kingdom in the future you fail to see the damage done to the devil's influence."

These reasons for not believing in a millennial period before the age of eternity are not impressive to me.
They impress you?

Acts says heaven must receive Christ UNTIL a future time of restoration.
And First Corinthians says He will reign UNTIL all enemies are subdued.

So that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He may send the Christ, who has been previously appointed for you, Jesus, Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old. (Acts 3:20,21)

Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. (1 Cor. 15:24,26)

Nothing about this undermines the cross, denies the Spirit to the Gentiles, dampens the great commision, nullifies the grace of Christ,
does damage to the priesthood of the believer, or anything you sound an alarm about.

A millennial period before the new heaven and new earth may introduce some things difficult to fully explain.
I think its denial involves probably more difficulties.

It is understandable to me that as the early apostles died and the years of passed and Christ did not yet physically return,
that a belief would emmerge that maybe all this reigning on the earth was NOW in the church age.

Of course the hopelessly politically involved Roman Catholic Church might see their system as the
manifestation of Christians (certainly the pope) as ruling over the known world.
So an a-millennial theology developed to rationalize His long awaited return and the political power of Christiandom
as the Roman Empire grasped at the "Church" to govern the world.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not.

Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Belief in a future millennial thousand years kingdom before the eternal age does no damage to "the glorious Gospel of Christ".

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is “now” and there is “then” – there is no additional in-between age. There is no future millennial age. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Is this moment in the past already practically?
Is this moment in the future "WHEN" when some "UNTIL" is concluded? (Rev. 20:5,7)

I believe Revelation is indeed a book of signs. (Rev. 1:1) But we should not allegorize to the point
that other clear unsymbolic teaching in the New Testament is rendered nonsensical.

What of the modernist how says the NT is SO symbolic that Christ is not really God's Son
who literally died and rose? A line has to be drawn sometimes on these things.

Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes?

 

[oikonomia]

Premils have to avoid these questions because they expose their narrow (and mistaken) reading of Revelation 20. They attribute much to that text that is unsupported elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it contradicts the ongoing narrative of Scripture.

First Corinthians 15:23-26 speaks of things to happen following the second coming of Christ.
Sequenced out they are:

But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;
Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished.

It guides our understanding of Revelation 20-22.

You agreed that the second coming of Christ has not happened yet.
So following that second coming a span of time involves the things mentioned AFTER "Christ's at His coming".
These things include - He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
A period of government over the nations transferred from the GT into that period is witnessed -Psalm 2, Matt 25, Rev. 20.

In the mean time regenerated saints not who were not deemed ready to be assigned over His possessions
need more time for their disciplinary catching up. For example - the foolish virgins who came to the
wedding feast lacking extra oil. The STILL had to go away to pay the price to obtain what they SHOULD have
had at the appropriate time. But when they did return the celebration was ongoing and they were not included.

Oil represents the Holy Spirit. Either the parable means some with the Holy Spirit perish forever, which is unthinkable.
Or the parable means the Lord expects the Holy Spirit will be in abundant occupation of the virgins WHEN He is ready to come back.

And the foolish said to the prudent, Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.
But the prudent answered, saying, Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.

And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut.

And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
Watch therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

So the millennial period has the function not only to subdue nations who are not regenerated.
It also has the function to give a remedial time of discipline to those from the church age who
did not pay the price to have thier beings saturated with the "extra" oil of the Holy Spirit.

They all ten virgins had oil in their lamps. The wise had extra oil in their vessels.
All reborn believers have the Holy Spirit as a gift in the spirit.
The wise use the time to pay the price to have extra oil permeate the personality.

The discipline was administered at the time the bridegroom's coming for the celebration.
But at midnight there was a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Go forth to meet him! (Matt. 25:6)

The number five as in five wise and five foolish, does not mean half the church is wise and half is foolish.
Five represents responsibility. The responsibility as to whether Christians will be wise or foolish during the age of grace lies with them.

 

[oikonomia]

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal.

But this is your speculation that the age following the second coming is immediately the eternal age.
What Paul said was that Christ has the highest name in the present age and in the age to come.

Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named
not only in this age but also in that which is to come; (Eph. 1:21)

Him having the preeminence, the highest name now and in the following age and on into eternity does not
insist that the next age is that eternal age.

Here we see that following His second coming He reigns until all His enemies are subdued.

. . . so also in Christ all will be made alive.
But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;
Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.
Death, the last enemy, is being abolished.

For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. (1 Cor. 15:22b-27)

One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state.

That is your reading into Revelation 20 that there is no 1,000 years before John saw a new heaven and a new earth.
That new universe in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:13)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

This is what he describes following the mention of the thousand years about five times in the previous chapter 20.