The Works of the Law

[tdidymas]

Yes, I agree with most all that you have offered. However it is more than that, specifically, that people who claim that by the phrase "the works of the Law" Paul means the whole Torah are just flat out wrong. Paul makes this clear by what he says in the OP passage, that is, very strongly implying that what he means by "the works of the Law" pertains to works of the flesh or deeds of the body: the outward physical works of which, (for example), outward physical circumcision is really the first such work and misdirects a disciple or adherent down the wrong path, and which is doubtless why Paul rails against physical circumcision so much more than all the other outward physical things in Pharisaic Torah interpretations.

The phrase "works of the Law" was a familiar term in first century Judaism and among Yhudim in general. However the Pharisaic-Sadducaic outward physical way of understanding "the works of the Law" was not the only way of understanding the Torah. As Yosephus informs us, there were four main sects in Yisrael in the first century: the Perushim, (Pharisees), the Zaddokim, (Sadducees), the Zealots, and the Hessenim, (Essenes). The Hessenim were almost no doubt those at what is now called Khirbet Qumran. Of the scrolls and fragments recovered from the caves at Qumran we actually have one fragment which mentions this phrase, ("the works of the Law"), and the context wherein it is used is very revealing in light of the fact that this Community vehemently disagreed with the Pharisees and Sadducees at Yerushelm in doctrine, and especially when it came to the animal sacrifices and interpretations of the Torah, (they were essentially either vegetarians or pescatarians, (fish only as far as meat)).

Geza Vermes translated the fragment where this phrase was found:

QUOTE:]
Florilegium or Midrash on the Last Days
(4Q174) This collection of texts assembled from 2 Samuel and the Psalter, and combined with other scriptural passages, serves to present the sectarian doctrine identifying the Community with the Temple, and to announce the coming of the two Messiahs, the ‘Branch of David’ and the ‘Interpreter of the Law’. Originating from Cave 4 (4Q174) and known also as ‘Florilegium’, it probably belongs to the late first century BCE. For the editio princeps, see J. M. Allegro and A. A. Anderson, DJD, V, 53-7.

I ... [I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them that they may dwell there and be troubled no more by their] enemies. No son of iniquity [shall afflict them again] as formerly, from the day that [I set judges] over my people Israel (2 Sam. vii, 10). This is the House which [He will build for them in the] last days, as it is written in the book of Moses, In the sanctuary which Thy hands have established, O Lord, the Lord shall reign for ever and ever (Exod. xv, 17-18). This is the House into which [the unclean shall] never [enter, nor the uncircumcised,] nor the Ammonite, nor the Moabite, nor the half-breed, nor the foreigner, nor the stranger, ever; for there shall My Holy Ones be. [Its glory shall endure] for ever; it shall appear above it perpetually And strangers shall lay it waste no more, as they formerly laid waste the Sanctuary of Israel because of its sin. He has commanded that a Sanctuary of men be built for Himself, that there they may send up, like the smoke of incense, the works of the Law.
— Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English
[END QUOTE.

Note the final line, (bold red highlighting is mine), which contains the phrase, "the works of the Law". It may clearly be seen by the context herein that the understanding of the one who penned this was surely not the same as the Pharisaic-Sadducaic view of "the works of the Law" described by Paul: for the text speaks of sending up prayers, ("like the smoke of incense"), as if the prayers themselves either contain or are themselves "the works of the Law" which the worshiper is sending up before the Most High. This author has a correct interpretation-understanding.

I don't get what you're saying here. You said:

people who claim that by the phrase "the works of the Law" Paul means the whole Torah are just flat out wrong.

It's unclear if you are saying that those people claim the Torah itself is the works, or that their obedience to the Torah is the works. Which is it?

Further, you claim that Paul clearly says that works of the law means deeds of the body. Here, I assume you mean that these works are deeds done in the body which are consistent with God's revealed moral will (such as the 10 Commandments), as opposed to deeds done in the body that are called "sin." Is this your meaning?

 

[daq]

I don't get what you're saying here. You said:

It's unclear if you are saying that those people claim the Torah itself is the works, or that their obedience to the Torah is the works. Which is it?

Look around you: there are people all over who claim that the Torah either contains "the works of the Law" or is itself "the works of the Law" which Paul is speaking about when he uses that phrase. Are they correct in making this assertion? Not according to the scripture and scripture reasoning in this thread.

Further, you claim that Paul clearly says that works of the law means deeds of the body. Here, I assume you mean that these works are deeds done in the body which are consistent with God's revealed moral will (such as the 10 Commandments), as opposed to deeds done in the body that are called "sin." Is this your meaning?

The related passage statements have been either referenced or posted, (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5).

Romans 8:12-13 KJV
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:12-13 KJV
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:
13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So then, we are natural or carnal and sold under sin, (Rom 7:14), and being sold under sin we are debtors. What is your debt to your new Master who has purchased you? What? Know you not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are no more your own? You are purchased with a price: and your debt is to no more live and walk according to the flesh and the natural mind of the old man nature which is death. Your new Master gave you his holy Testimony in the Gospel accounts and it expounds how to understand all scripture, including the Torah, and how to walk pleasing to the Father in all His Word.

Nothing is to be refused, nothing is done away with, the Torah is spiritual: the problem is that the natural mind cannot understand spiritual things and needs to find a way to kill the Word of the Father in order for the natural man to keep himself alive and free to live for himself until death parts him from his carcass.

 

[daq]

Galatians 2:16 T/R-BYZ
16 ειδοτες οτι ου δικαιουται ανθρωπος εξ εργων νομου εαν μη δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου και ημεις εις χριστον ιησουν επιστευσαμεν ινα δικαιωθωμεν εκ πιστεως χριστου και ουκ εξ εργων νομου διοτι ου δικαιωθησεται εξ εργων νομου πασα σαρξ

Galatians 2:16 YLT (Young's Literal Translation - T/R)
16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

Galatians 2:16 N/A-W/H
16 ειδοτες δε οτι ου δικαιουται ανθρωπος εξ εργων νομου εαν μη δια πιστεως χριστου ιησου και ημεις εις χριστον ιησουν επιστευσαμεν ινα δικαιωθωμεν εκ πιστεως χριστου και ουκ εξ εργων νομου οτι εξ εργων νομου ου δικαιωθησεται πασα σαρξ

16 knowing moreover that a man is not justified by the works of the law, if not by way of the faith-belief of Χ̅Ρ Ι̅Η, we also have trusted in Χ̅Ρ Ι̅Η that we might be justified by the faith-belief of Χ̅Ρ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Thus the works of the law, according to the Pharisaic outward interpretations, cannot justify because their interpretations are all carnal, natural, and outward, while the Torah is spiritual. The true works of the Torah are inward, supernal, (of above), and spiritual, and the beliefs of the Meshiah as taught in the Gospel accounts are the only right way to understand the true works of the Torah. That is what it means to live by way of the faith-belief of the Meshiah, that is, to walk according to his commandments, parables, proverbs, sayings, idioms, and teachings, as recorded for us in his all-important Testimony given to us in the Gospel accounts.

There is justification by the works of the Torah, but only by walking according to the Testimony (and faith-belief) of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts: for his Testimony is Spirit, (John 6:63), and expounds the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and is therefore the new Spirit of the renewed covenant, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27). Therefore, just as he says in Matthew 5:20, (εαν μη) If your righteousness does not exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, in no way shall you enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[Studyman]

Galatians 2:16 T/R-BYZ
16 ειδοτες οτι ου δικαιουται ανθρωπος εξ εργων νομου εαν μη δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου και ημεις εις χριστον ιησουν επιστευσαμεν ινα δικαιωθωμεν εκ πιστεως χριστου και ουκ εξ εργων νομου διοτι ου δικαιωθησεται εξ εργων νομου πασα σαρξ

Galatians 2:16 YLT (Young's Literal Translation - T/R)
16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

Galatians 2:16 N/A-W/H
16 ειδοτες δε οτι ου δικαιουται ανθρωπος εξ εργων νομου εαν μη δια πιστεως χριστου ιησου και ημεις εις χριστον ιησουν επιστευσαμεν ινα δικαιωθωμεν εκ πιστεως χριστου και ουκ εξ εργων νομου οτι εξ εργων νομου ου δικαιωθησεται πασα σαρξ

16 knowing moreover that a man is not justified by the works of the law, if not by way of the faith-belief of Χ̅Ρ Ι̅Η, we also have trusted in Χ̅Ρ Ι̅Η that we might be justified by the faith-belief of Χ̅Ρ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Thus the works of the law, according to the Pharisaic outward interpretations, cannot justify because their interpretations are all carnal, natural, and outward, while the Torah is spiritual.

The problem with this religious philosophy is that you are implying the Pharisees were "keeping the Letter" of the Law, not knowing that God's Law is Spiritual. Or they simply "misinterpreted the law" not understanding that is was symbolic. But when I listen to the Christ of the Bible, here is what HE says.

Mark 7:6 (CLV) Yet He, answering, said to them that "Ideally prophesies Isaiah concerning you hypocrites, as it is written, that This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me." 7 Yet in vain are they revering Me, teaching for teachings the directions "of men"." 8 For, "leaving" the precept of God, you are holding the tradition "of men" of the baptism of ewers and cups. And many such like things you are doing." 9 And He said to them, "Ideally are you "repudiating" the precept of God, that you should be keeping "your" tradition."

And again;

John 7: 19 Has not Moses given you the law? And not one of you is doing the law! Why are you seeking to kill Me?

And of their fathers in the Law and Prophets.

Ezek. 20: 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe "their" judgments, nor defile yourselves with "their idols": 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in "my statutes", and keep "my judgments", and do them; 20 And hallow "my sabbaths"; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against "me": they walked not in "my" statutes, neither kept "my" judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted "my" sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.

So to say the Pharisees were trying to be justified by honoring God's Law "mistakenly", or that they just didn't realize God's Law was Spiritual, doesn't accurately describe them according to what is written in scriptures. According to these Scriptures I posted, and many more, the Pharisees knew God, but didn't respect Him. They knew Him but didn't Glorify Him. The had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them.

God wouldn't punish or Blind a people for simply misunderstanding Him. Or Misunderstanding His Words. The Pharisees "Despised" His Judgments. Refused to walk in His Statutes and polluted His Sabbaths because of Rebellion, stubbornness and Pride.

It seems important not to sugar coat the reason, or the nature of these men. And the Christ "of the Bible" teaches.

Matt. 23: " 37 Jerusalem! Jerusalem! who art killing the prophets and pelting with stones those who have been dispatched to her! How many times do I want to assemble your children in the manner a hen is assembling her brood under her wings-and you will not!"

The true works of the Torah are inward, supernal, (of above), and spiritual, and the beliefs of the Meshiah as taught in the Gospel accounts are the only right way to understand the true works of the Torah. That is what it means to live by way of the faith-belief of the Meshiah, that is, to walk according to his commandments, parables, proverbs, sayings, idioms, and teachings, as recorded for us in his all-important Testimony given to us in the Gospel accounts.

And the Messiah tells us, John 17: " 3 Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ."

Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, these men were not rebellious against God and His Judgments. They walked in God's Law, Blameless. They Loved God and Served Him from the heart, not just their lips. As a result, God didn't blind them, or bring the curse of Egypt upon them, rather, HE gave them understanding.

In my understanding, this is why they knew the Christ, even before HE was born, but the Chief Priests in the Temple did not.

There is justification by the works of the Torah, but only by walking according to the Testimony (and faith-belief) of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts: for his Testimony is Spirit, (John 6:63), and expounds the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and is therefore the new Spirit of the renewed covenant, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27). Therefore, just as he says in Matthew 5:20, (εαν μη) If your righteousness does not exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, in no way shall you enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Amen.

 

[daq]

The problem with this religious philosophy is that you are implying the Pharisees were "keeping the Letter" of the Law, not knowing that God's Law is Spiritual. Or they simply "misinterpreted the law" not understanding that is was symbolic. But when I listen to the Christ of the Bible, here is what HE says.

Edited to remove response to flaming.

For anyone who might be new to this thread, and might be interested, this was already answered with the Testimony of the Meshiah, in Reply #88 of this thread and Reply #90 which follows it, which may be found beginning at the following link.

The Works of the Law

The context of the "them" for Galatians 3:12 is set in 3:10. If we are of the works of the Law we are under the curse of the Law because it is written, curse is every that continueth not in ALL things written in the Book of the Law. So No man is justified by the law, the works of the Law...

www.christianforums.com

 

[HIM]

 

[daq]

View attachment 339575

I consider it flaming to call my beliefs a "religious philosophy" since my beliefs are taught in the scripture. I consider it flaming for people to keep insinuating that I am adding to the scripture when I am not. I consider it flaming for someone to say "when I listen to the Christ of the Bible" because they are insinuating that I am not "listening to the Christ of the Bible".

Should I now start ignoring all such posts containing flames directed at myself and simply report them all? This is a serious question because I am not the reporting type: I do not run around reporting people, and cannot even remember the last time I reported anyone or if I have ever even done so, but if that is what is necessary in this flame-filled board then so be it.

 

[daq]

In the following passage Paul teaches the opposite of what other posters here in this thread are promoting.

Romans 2:17-29 KJV
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Cherry picking out of context verses and placing them in a wall of scripture so as to support one's own theories, while ignoring plain logos-reasoning from the context of such scripture passages as the above, and including the Testimony of the Meshiah as also already quoted previously, only serve to self-deceive the doer of such things by way of confirmation bias. When we do such things we are essentially stripping the text of the Logos so that we may insert our own logos into it.

It is extremely clear from the above text that Paul knew that the Pharisees and Yhudim believed themselves to be justified by keeping the Torah. One does not "rest in the Torah" and "make his boast in Elohim" if indeed the same has actually rejected the Torah in his heart and mind, (moreover the same is true concerning most all of the other things highlighted in the passage above).

However their resting in the Torah doesn't mean they were actually observing it correctly, for we know they failed, and that can mean nothing other than what has been said over and over here in this thread: they simply did not understand the Torah because they viewed it through the natural mind of the natural man who sees all things as outward and physical, according to the flesh, and who therefore cannot please Elohim because it is impossible to be subject to the Torah of Elohim if one views it according to the flesh, the natural, and the physical, for again, the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14).

 

[Studyman]

In the following passage Paul teaches the opposite of what other posters here in this thread are promoting.

Romans 2:17-29 KJV
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Cherry picking out of context verses and placing them in a wall of scripture so as to support one's own theories, while ignoring plain logos-reasoning from the context of such scripture passages as the above, and including the Testimony of the Meshiah as also already quoted previously, only serve to self-deceive the doer of such things by way of confirmation bias. When we do such things we are essentially stripping the text of the Logos so that we may insert our own logos into it.

Paul does explain the practice of many self-proclaimed "teachers of the law", including the Pharisees, of accusing others what they themselves also do. It seems this practice is the least recognized by those who practice it.

Rom. 2: 1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

If a man would consider all of the Christ's Words, and Paul's words, and not just cherry pick those words he can twist to further his own private religious dogma, this man would know that the Pharisees "SAID" they promoted God's Laws, but they "DIDN'T" promote God's Laws. The Yeshua "of the Bible" teaches that this was because they were liars and children of the devil. Not because they misunderstood God. This man, if he listened to what Yeshua actually teaches, would know that the problem with the Pharisees was not that they simply misunderstood God, or misinterpreted His instructions. But that they "Omitted" God's instruction that didn't fit their adopted religious philosophy, because they didn't "Believe" Him, not because they couldn't understand Him. (Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear)

Paul's own words in the wall of Scriptures you strung together makes this very case. "Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through "breaking the law" dishonourest thou God?"

Paul doesn't say here that the Pharisees "misunderstood" or "misinterpreted" adultery, or stealing, or that they didn't grasp the Spiritual meaning of "thou shall not Steal". They rejected it.

This man, if he was listening to Paul, would know that in this same Letter, Paul said explains why the Pharisees broke God's Laws;

Rom. 1: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: I tried to make this point that God showed them, rising early and sending them teachers for centuries, but they murdered and persecuted these same Prophets. Not because they didn't understand God, but because they lusted after the imaginations of their own heart.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

This same man, if he listened to the Yeshua "of the Bible", would know that the Pharisees didn't misinterpret the "weightier matters of the law" but "Omitted" them.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have "omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

There is nothing here from the King of Israel, about how the Pharisees misunderstood God's Laws that they didn't "omit", rather Yeshua said they should continue as they were. To preach differently would be "ADDING" one's own religious opinion to the text.

It is extremely clear from the above text that Paul knew that the Pharisees and Yhudim believed themselves to be justified by keeping the Torah. One does not "rest in the Torah" and "make his boast in Elohim" if indeed the same has actually rejected the Torah in his heart and mind, (moreover the same is true concerning most all of the other things highlighted in the passage above).

I think if a man would open their mind to the Christ, "of the Bible" as HE defines these men, both as the Spirit of Christ inspiring Isaiah, and as the man Yeshua, perhaps this man might reconsider the religious opinion being promoted here.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me "with their mouth", and honoureth me "with their lips"; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God)

Yeshua is telling men flat out, that they rejected God's Word (Torah) from the heart.

And if a man must hear it from Paul, not believing the Words of the Christ "of the Bible";

Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

And if a man doesn't believe in the Testimony but must hear it from the Prophets.

Jer. 23: 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: "they commit adultery, and walk in lies:" (Is Paul not addressing these same men?) they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

And again;

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have "corrupted" the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been "partial in the law". (Is this not the very Words Yeshua just told us?)

And again;

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: "they have forsaken the LORD", they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

And yet, what did these Evil doers continue to do to justify themselves?

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Will a man deny that these are the fathers of the Pharisees? "As your fathers did, so do ye"? Where is the teaching that is being promoted here, that these men simply misinterpreted and misunderstood God's Word? It is because of these "wall of scriptures" which show the Truth about the Pharisees, that I question the religious philosophy being promoted here.

However their resting in the Torah doesn't mean they were actually observing it correctly, for we know they failed, and that can mean nothing other than what has been said over and over here in this thread: they simply did not understand the Torah because they viewed it through the natural mind of the natural man who sees all things as outward and physical, according to the flesh, and who therefore cannot please Elohim because it is impossible to be subject to the Torah of Elohim if one views it according to the flesh, the natural, and the physical, for again, the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14).

It is written in the Holy scriptures;

Deut. 4: 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

The reason why the Pharisees were "cut off", is because they didn't believe Moses, and didn't "SEEK God" with all their heart. And When God sent Prophets, and even His Own Son, who also taught "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". They didn't believe Him either.

The Pharisees were not trying to be justified by "Keeping the Torah". They omitted the most important parts of God's Laws in order to promote their own religious dogma. At least according to the Yeshua, "of the Bible". But they still gathered on God's Sabbath in "God's Name", in their manmade shrines of worship and presented their peace offerings and sin offerings to God, as prescribed by the law, for justification. Just as they did in Isaiah's time. And by the works of the law of the sin offering, shall no rebellious flesh be justified.

Had they sought the Lord their God with all their hearts as God instructed, like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men, they would have found Him, just as every example of true faith found Him.

But if one rejects the Torah, in whole or in part, from the heart as many do, including the Pharisees, in order to preserve and promote preconceived religious philosophy, opinions and traditions of men, they will not be led by the Spirit of God into God's Spiritual Truth.

It is good to discuss these matters, and the Holy Scriptures "which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus".

 

[daq]

All of the places in the writings of Paul wherein he mentions "the works of the law" have now been discussed in this thread, and it has been sufficiently shown, from the scripture, that in each occasion where Paul uses this phrase he is not speaking of the Torah itself, rather, he is speaking of the incorrect understanding of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, etc., and their own incorrect outward and physical understanding and interpretations of the Torah. Not only this but even the single fragment from the DSS recovered at Qumran, containing this same phrase, has also been discussed herein: and it reveals an alternative meaning of the same phrase as understood by those who held a very different inward, supernal, and spiritual understanding the Torah.

So then, whereas the opening post should be enough to understand these things and the focus and point of this thread, for anyone willing to allow common sense and logic, at least now every instance of the phrase "the works of the Law" has also been addressed: and it is clear that the argument that says Paul means the whole Torah, and means to do away with it or set it aside when he uses this phrase, "the works of the Law", is an utterly faulty argument.

Thread >|.

 

[tdidymas]

Look around you: there are people all over who claim that the Torah either contains "the works of the Law" or is itself "the works of the Law" which Paul is speaking about when he uses that phrase. Are they correct in making this assertion? Not according to the scripture and scripture reasoning in this thread.



The related passage statements have been either referenced or posted, (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5).

Romans 8:12-13 KJV
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:12-13 KJV
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:
13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So then, we are natural or carnal and sold under sin, (Rom 7:14), and being sold under sin we are debtors. What is your debt to your new Master who has purchased you? What? Know you not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are no more your own? You are purchased with a price: and your debt is to no more live and walk according to the flesh and the natural mind of the old man nature which is death. Your new Master gave you his holy Testimony in the Gospel accounts and it expounds how to understand all scripture, including the Torah, and how to walk pleasing to the Father in all His Word.

Nothing is to be refused, nothing is done away with, the Torah is spiritual: the problem is that the natural mind cannot understand spiritual things and needs to find a way to kill the Word of the Father in order for the natural man to keep himself alive and free to live for himself until death parts him from his carcass.

Ok, I get your answer to the first question, some people claim that the Torah itself is the works, or that the Torah contains the works. I agree with you if that is the meaning of what people claim, because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how anyone could apply Paul's words concerning "the works of the law" to their personal life, beyond mere fantasy, if that were the case.

In your answer to my 2nd question, it appears to me that you are saying that the works are sinful works, not works that are (on the surface) obedient to the Torah (such as the case of the Pharisees and Paul before his conversion). Am I reading you right?

 

[daq]

Ok, I get your answer to the first question, some people claim that the Torah itself is the works, or that the Torah contains the works. I agree with you if that is the meaning of what people claim, because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how anyone could apply Paul's words concerning "the works of the law" to their personal life, beyond mere fantasy, if that were the case.

In your answer to my 2nd question, it appears to me that you are saying that the works are sinful works, not works that are (on the surface) obedient to the Torah (such as the case of the Pharisees and Paul before his conversion). Am I reading you right?

I just recently came across the following excellent blog post which explains pretty much the whole point of this thread, that is, that Paul's usage of the phrase "Works of the Law" concerns the first century Pharisaic interpretations of the Torah in his day, which he knew all too well having been himself a "Pharisee of Pharisees". It is not about the Torah but about the outward and natural interpretations of the Torah according to the Pharisees of his day, (a.k.a. Pharisaic Halakha).

4QMMT and Paul's "Works of the Law" (Galatians 2)

The acronym MMT are the first letters of the Hebrew words in the name assigned to the manuscript, Miqsat Ma'aseh ha-Torah. Translated, the words mean "a selection of the works of the Law" or "significant works of the Law." The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed important light on what this phrase meant...

reesecommentaries.com

In the context of Paul's Epistles:
Ergōn Nomou (εργων νομου) = Ma'aseh haTorah = Works of the Torah = Pharisee Halakha

 

[Bob S]

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

In other words, we cannot work our way to Heaven by keeping Torah. Torah is all inclusive. Later in the chapter Paul wrote this:
18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Israel was no longer under the Law. The transitory Law was made for Israel. Why do some believe we are obligated to observe it?

 

[daq]

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

In other words, we cannot work our way to Heaven by keeping Torah. Torah is all inclusive. Later in the chapter Paul wrote this:
18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Amen!

Galatians 3:2-3 TS2009
2 This only I wish to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of Torah, [Ma'aseh haTorah] or by the hearing of belief?
3 Are you so senseless? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now end in the flesh?

Ergōn Nomou (εργων νομου) = Ma'aseh haTorah = Works of the Torah = Pharisee Halakha

 

[Studyman]

Ok, I get your answer to the first question, some people claim that the Torah itself is the works, or that the Torah contains the works. I agree with you if that is the meaning of what people claim, because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how anyone could apply Paul's words concerning "the works of the law" to their personal life, beyond mere fantasy, if that were the case.

What a great question, and a prudent one. I hope you don't mind if I address it. Paul had just said in the Previous Chapter that "God Gives", that is, the "One True God", who "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" gives 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

He goes on to say, 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And now in just the next chapter, he is saying;

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God has placed me in a world in which "many" differing religious sects exist, all coming in Christ's Name, all calling the Messiah described in English Translations, Lord, Lord. Their answer to this apparent contradiction is to simply ignore Paul's words in Romans 2 and use Paul's words in Roman 3 to make void the Torah, whose instructions they transgress by their own religious traditions. Like you, this didn't make sense to me either.

But if a man truly considers ALL that Paul is saying, he makes perfect sense.

All men have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God, Yes? Therefore, all men are guilty and as Paul says, are "dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

So "ALL" men need pardoned or forgiven. Remember, in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians it is explained that all men, Jew and Gentile, are guilty and in need of remission of sins, AKA "Forgiven" or "Justified" (Made just as if you didn't sin). Please consider that this was the exact same state, the same place "ALL" men were in Moses' time too, Yes?

So did God provide Mercy and forgiveness for the Israelite who sinned in Moses Time Too?

So then ask the question, "when a common man like you and I sinned in Moses Time, what did God Command that man to do, in order for His Sins to be forgiven? I will help you with the answer given by God through Moses, it can be found in the Torah, Lev. 4: 27-31.

This was the LAW Abraham didn't have, as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after him. It was ADDED because Israel Transgressed the Laws, Statutes and Commandments of God Abraham was blessed for obeying. It was put in Place until the True Lamb of God, the SEED should come.

The corrupt Jews, religious sect of the Pharisees and Sadducees, were still promoting their twisted version of these sacrificial "works of the Law" for "Justification" or remission of Sins. They refused to believe Moses, rejected God's Laws, and had created a business basically selling forgiveness, or promoting the religious philosophy that a man can willfully "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition" all week, and then come to their manmade shrine of worship on God's sabbath, and offer the Blood of a righteous, innocent being, according to the Law, to justify them of their willful Transgressions.

Paul is teaching Jew and Gentile that "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

After the Christ had come, or as Jeremiah said it in Jer. 31, "After those days", the manner in which Sin is forgiven was to change. The Priesthood was Prophesied to change. God's covenant regarding how sins are forgiven, was to change.

So there are two Covenants dealing with forgiveness of Sin. The first one, "ADDED" on Mt. Sinai, being a Shadow of the second, which which was to

In your answer to my 2nd question, it appears to me that you are saying that the works are sinful works, not works that are (on the surface) obedient to the Torah (such as the case of the Pharisees and Paul before his conversion). Am I reading you right?

If I may, I too was taught by this world's religions since my youth, that the Pharisees, including Paul before his conversion, were obedient servants to God, walking in all His commandments, Blameless. Now there were obedient Servants of God, like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, etc. But the teaching that the religious sect of the Pharisees were "obedient to the Torah" is an insidious falsehood. A lie that has corrupted the minds of "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. All a person has to do is hear Moses and the Prophets, or listen to EVERY WORD the Jesus "of the bible" says about the Pharisees, and you too, will come to understand that like others, you have been lied to by "MANY" who come in Christ's Name. Both Jesus and Paul warned of these "many" who "transform themselves into apostles of Christ".

What these deceivers use to promote this falsehood, are Paul's words in which he describes his former religion. He defines this for us twice, but the deceivers usually ignore or omit one of the examples he gives, as it doesn't promote their agenda.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Stephen, before being murdered by these men who you said were (on the surface) obedient to the Torah, tells us about the traditions of their fathers.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

And the other time Paul defines his former religion is the one used and taken out of context.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, "a Pharisee"; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, ( As discussed above, regarding how unrighteousness was forgiven in the Law) blameless.

What was the "LAW of the Pharisee"? The deceiver would have us believe it was God's Law. But what does the Jesus of the Bible teach?

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God)

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 "For they" (Pharisees, Not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

John 9: 6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law", and by "our law" he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

So my friend, it wasn't God, or His Words (Torah) that led the people of Jesus' Time astray, nor was it the Law and Prophets that we are told by the religions of this world, "is against us". But it was the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' Time, the "Other voice" in the garden God placed us in, who always quotes "Some" of God's Word to deceive.

I hope you might consider the Holy Scriptures, and the Words of the Jesus of the bible, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Have a great day.

 

[HIM]

So then, whereas the opening post should be enough to understand these things and the focus and point of this thread, for anyone willing to allow common sense and logic, at least now every instance of the phrase "the works of the Law" has also been addressed: and it is clear that the argument that says Paul means the whole Torah, and means to do away with it or set it aside when he uses this phrase, "the works of the Law", is an utterly faulty argument.

Every instance? Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it justifies or makes righteous no one. But the law is established through faith not voided.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are IN the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is through faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


He also means Torah in chapter 9.

How do we know? Because He meant it chapter 3. And that should be all that is needed. And if that is not enough the context says it also. 10:5 is a quote from Lev 18 which is definitely speaking of the Law. And 10:3 states that it is God's righteousness they were ignorant of because as previously stated in chapter nine they sought it by the works of the Law and not by the faith which actually establishes the law. Faith that establishes the law is the righteousness of God that they were ignorant of. For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, God's righteousness which is established by the faith that establishes the Law. Or if we must Christ is the culmination into righteousness for all that believe. For the righteousness which is of faith speaks this, Say not in your heart, Bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say this, the word is in our mouths and in our hearts, That is the word of faith in which we preach.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

And that brings us to Galatians. It is rather inane to think Paul meant something different here in respect to how he understood the phrase works of the law when he explicitly states what the Law was in the phrase in Romans 3:20. That it is that which gives us the knowledge of what sin is. And the works of this knowledge justifies no one, for all having sinned and fall short of the glory of God.. But Galatians adds an element that actually shines more light on Romans 3:31 where it states that Faith establishes the Law, but the works of it do not justify. It says the works of the Law that shows us what sin is can not justify us unless it is through the faith out of Jesus. This is missed by most due to BAD translations of 2:16 in Galatians. In this we see a parallel between verse 3:20,31 in Romans and Gal 2:16. If we put all the text together we see The Law justifies and is established if through the faith of Jesus. Not through our own power but through His through His Spirit. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of Jesus. If righteousness came through our works of the Law then Christ died in vain. For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. For just one piece of leaven leavens the whole. Therefore we are all Quilty before God.

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Gal 2:15 We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from the Gentiles.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified from the works of the law unless it is through faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed into Christ Jesus, that we might be justified from the faith of Christ and not from the works of the law: because from the works of the law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[daq]

Every instance? Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it justifies or makes righteous no one. But the law is established through faith not voided.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are IN the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is through faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


He also means Torah in chapter 9.

How do we know? Because He meant it chapter 3. And that should be all that is needed. And if that is not enough the context says it also. 10:5 is a quote from Lev 18 which is definitely speaking of the Law. And 10:3 states that it is God's righteousness they were ignorant of because as previously stated in chapter nine they sought it by the works of the Law and not by the faith which actually establishes the law. Faith that establishes the law is the righteousness of God that they were ignorant of. For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, God's righteousness which is established by the faith that establishes the Law. Or if we must Christ is the culmination into righteousness for all that believe. For the righteousness which is of faith speaks this, Say not in your heart, Bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say this, the word is in our mouths and in our hearts, That is the word of faith in which we preach.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

And that brings us to Galatians. It is rather inane to think Paul meant something different here in respect to how he understood the phrase works of the law when he explicitly states what the Law was in the phrase in Romans 3:20. That it is that which gives us the knowledge of what sin is. And the works of this knowledge justifies no one, for all having sinned and fall short of the glory of God.. But Galatians adds an element that actually shines more light on Romans 3:31 where it states that Faith establishes the Law, but the works of it do not justify. It says the works of the Law that shows us what sin is can not justify us unless it is through the faith out of Jesus. This is missed by most due to BAD translations of 2:16 in Galatians. In this we see a parallel between verse 3:20,31 in Romans and Gal 2:16. If we put all the text together we see The Law justifies and is established if through the faith of Jesus. Not through our own power but through His through His Spirit. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of Jesus. If righteousness came through our works of the Law then Christ died in vain. For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. For just one piece of leaven leavens the whole. Therefore we are all Quilty before God.

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Gal 2:15 We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from the Gentiles.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified from the works of the law unless it is through faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed into Christ Jesus, that we might be justified from the faith of Christ and not from the works of the law: because from the works of the law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

It has already been proven time and again that "the works of the law" is an idiom Paul uses for the faulty, outward, physical, and natural minded interpretations of the Pharisees and their Scribes. I am quite sure that Paul knows better than you or any of us here seeing that he was formerly a Pharisee of Pharisees by his own testimony concerning himself.

Moreover your entire paradigm has already also been proven to be utterly erroneous by the writings of Paul in multiple threads on this board where he proves that the Torah cannot be done away with knowing that the Ten cannot be separated from the rest of the Torah as you and your associates preach. You cannot even observe the commandment to honor your Father and Mother if you say the feasts are done away with, and yet, that is what you say for lack of understanding of who exactly your mother covenant is according to Paul and the background texts from which he quotes in that passage. The Torah is spiritual, just as Paul says and I have repeated a thousand times, and deleting almost everything but the Ten and a select few others is surely not the answer because all of the other commandments, statutes, etc., which are written in the Torah flow from the Ten Spoken-Word Commandments.

Galatians 4:22-27 LSV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isa 54:1]

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. [Gal 4:27]
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Yerushalem of above is not only our mother-covenant but also the heavenly Tabernacle, the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah, which means that you cannot keep the commandment to honor your Father and Mother if you do not go up to Yerushalem to the feasts of your heavenly Father and Mother, Yerushalem of above.

Exodus 23:12-17 LSV
12 Six days you do your work, and on the seventh day you rest, so that your ox and your donkey rest, and the son of your handmaid and the sojourner is refreshed;
13 and in all that which I have said to you—take heed; and you do not mention the name of other gods; it is not heard on your mouth.
14 You keep a celebration to Me three times in a year:
15 you keep the Celebration of Unleavened Things (you eat unleavened things [for] seven days as I have commanded you, at the time appointed [in] the month of Abib; for in it you have come forth out of Egypt, and you do not appear [in] My presence empty);
16 and the Celebration of Harvest, the first-fruits of your works which you sow in the field; and the Celebration of the Ingathering in the outgoing of the year, in your gathering your works out of the field.
17 Three times in a year all your males appear before [the] face of the Lord YHWH.

All three of these feasts unto the Father are centered around the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah, and later at the Temple at Yerushalem, and Yerushalem of above is our heavenly Mother being our mother-covenant according to Paul in the Gal 4 passage quote above.

Exodus 20:12 LSV
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days are prolonged on the ground which your God YHWH is giving to you.

This also includes honoring your heavenly Father and heavenly Mother. So much for SDA theories.

 

[HIM]

You haven't addressed the post.

Moreover your entire paradigm has already also been proven to be utterly erroneous by the writings of Paul in multiple threads on this board where he proves that the Torah cannot be done away with knowing that the Ten cannot be separated from the rest of the Torah as you and your associates preach.

You haven't addressed the post.
It is because Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it justifies or makes no one righteous. But the law is established through faith not voided.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are IN the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is through faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[daq]

You haven't addressed the post.

You haven't addressed the post.
It is because Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it justifies or makes no one righteous. But the law is established through faith not voided.



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are IN the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is through faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes, it has been addressed earlier in the thread, so if you are going to try to rehash it now, long after it was already addressed, I am going to trust others that have not yet read this thread to go back and look at the arguments from the start: and at the same time I will use your posts for new arguments which have not yet been presented so far herein. Moreover the new argument in my previous post is not off target because it does indeed reveal that your old argument cannot be true because your entire paradigm is false for thinking you can label so much of the Torah as "ceremonial law" and delete it while imagining that you are keeping "the Ten".

You want to argue over an idiom, "the works of the law", because you need Paul to delete most the Torah for you so that you can imagine yourself to be "keeping the Ten". The debate over the idiom has long been settled in this thread whether you have read it or not. Meanwhile you have just been shown that you do not even keep the Ten because deleting the feasts of your Father and your Mother under the concocted false division of "ceremonial law" means that you do not honor your heavenly Father and heavenly Mother, and that is shown in my previous post in the scriptures quoted and many other scripture passages.

 

[HIM]

Yes, it has been addressed earlier in the thread, so if you are going to try to rehash it now

No it hasn’t. The only reason you don't is you know there is no argument because Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either and no other way to take it, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it does not justifiy or makes anyone righteous. But the law is established through faith not voided.