The Works of the Law

[Leaf473]

Yes, differently: I do not see what you see.

[13] And when their days of purifications were fulfilled, they brought him to Yerushalem to stand before Κ̅Ω, as it is written in the Torah of Κ̅Υ, and to offer sacrifice according to what is stated in the Torah of Κ̅Υ, A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.
[14] [Turtledove the first:] And there was a certain one in Yerushalem whose name was Shimeon, and this man a Tzaddik and pious one, awaiting the consolation of Yisrael: and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
[15] And it was divinely revealed to him by the Spirit of the Holy One that he would not see death before having seen τον Χ̅Ρ Κ̅Υ.
[16] And he came in the Spirit into the temple also, with the parents, bringing in the manchild Ι̅Η to do according to the custom of the Torah concerning him.
[17] And he received him into his arms, and blessed τον Θ̅Ν, and said, Now may your servant depart in peace, according to your Word, O Master:
[18] For my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all the people, a light of revelation for the nations, and the glory of Your people Yisrael.
[19] And his father and mother were wondering at the things spoken concerning him, and Shimeon blessed them, and he said to Maryah his mother,
[20] Behold, this one is set for the downfall and rising again of many in Yisrael, and for a sign spoken against: and of you, moreover, a rhomphaia shall pass through your own soul, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
[21] [Turtledove the second:] And there was also Ĥannah the Prophetess, a daughter of [the school of] Phanuel, and she was well advance in many days, having lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood.
[22] And she had been a widow even unto eighty four years, who departed not from the naos, fasting and petitioning, ministering night and day.
[23] And she stood in her hour, confessing in turn unto Θ̅Ω, and she spoke concerning him toward all those patiently awaiting the redemption of Yerushalem.
[24] And when they had completed all things according to the Torah of Κ̅Υ, they returned to the Galil, to their own city Nazareth:

Ascending offerings are PRAYERS: not burning animal flesh.

That's cool With that degree of fluidity, we can say that following Torah is simply loving your neighbor as yourself

 

[daq]

That's cool With that degree of fluidity, we can say that following Torah is simply loving your neighbor as yourself

Hmmm, well, as for myself, I would not go so far as to think of the difference between a holy ascending prayer offering unto Elohim and what is an abomination to Elohim, ehem, "fluidity". The same overall issue is likely the very reason He says in Isaiah 1:10-15 that they have blood on their hands when they spread them forth to pray.

 

[Leaf473]

Hmmm, well, as for myself, I would not go so far as to think of the difference between a holy ascending prayer offering unto Elohim and what is an abomination to Elohim, ehem, "fluidity".

Oh, neither would I. But to say that the law of Moses was telling people to bring their first born son to the temple and have two people pray over him... that seems like a very fluid approach to me.

Wasn't the two turtle doves the option for poor people? It seems like it would be even cheaper just to have two people pray

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 12:8 - New Century Version

“‘If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make her clean so she will belong to the LORD again, and she will be clean.’”

www.biblegateway.com

The same overall issue is likely the very reason He says in Isaiah 1:10-15 that they have blood on their hands when they spread them forth to pray.

I think the blood on their hands refers to oppression of the poor

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 1:17 - New Century Version

Learn to do good. Seek justice. Punish those who hurt others. Help the orphans. Stand up for the rights of widows.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[daq]

I think the blood on their hands refers to oppression of the poor

Is that an example of the fluid approach?

This is the passage I referenced:

Isaiah 1:10-15 KJV
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

When he says rulers of Sodom he is speaking to the rulers at Yerushalem who tread the temple and its courts, that is, he speaks to the Kohanim, (Priests), for they are the ones who offered the animal sacrifices and incense and prayers for the nation and the people. Moreover he says your new months and your appointed feasts, (not "My" new months or "My" appointed feasts). Moreover the Prophet speaks in these terms yet again to the same people, the rulers at Yerushalem temple who were the Kohanim.

Isaiah 28:5-18 KJV
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This covenant with death is the erroneous understanding of the animal sacrifices by way of misunderstanding and incorrect interpretation of the sacrifices in the Torah. It is also a reference to the warning given through Mosheh in Deuteronomy 30:10-20, "See, (pay attention) I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil...", and again, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life..."

This is about understanding, perception, interpretation, how you hear what you hear, and how you read and understand the Torah: and to choose the fleshly and carnal way of understanding is to choose death, (another reason Paul says that the natural mind of the natural man cannot please Elohim, for it cannot be subject to His Torah-Instruction, Romans 8:5-8).

And moreover this is what the Prophet says at the end of the book:

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

This is clearly saying that mankind is to be the holy temple of the Most High, not a temple building made with the hands of men, and this is confirmed in the testimony of Stephen in Acts 7 who quotes this passage and says that those rejecting this understanding are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears who are rejecting the Holy Spirit, (Acts 7:47-51).

And the Prophet continues:

Isaiah 66:3-4 KJV
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Again, it's the choice they made: they chose that in which the Most High delighted not, and in so doing they chose death, just as Mosheh warned against in Deuteronomy 30, and they made for themselves a covenant with death by way of slaughtering the innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim while imagining themselves to be obeying the Torah.

Psalms 51:
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6-7 KJV
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Matthew 12:7 KJV
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

This is the Word speaking:

Psalms 40:6-10 KJV
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [header of the Sefer, (Genesis 1)] it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [Torah] is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: [because the Torah is read continually in the synagogues and congregations] lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

The Master in the Gospel accounts and the Psalms and the Prophets tell an entirely different story than the Pharisaic-Sadducaic outward carnal-man understanding of the Torah which continues to be espoused even in most of the mainstream Christian world unto this day, (mostly so that the Torah may be rejected), even despite what Paul says about the Torah being spiritual, again, Romans 7:14a.

 

[Leaf473]

Is this an example of the fluid approach?

A low level of fluidity, sure. I think it's a common theme in the prophets.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 5:7 - New American Standard Bible

For the vineyard of the LORD of armies is the house of Israel, And the people of Judah are His delightful plant. So He waited for justice, but behold, there was bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 22:17 - New American Standard Bible

“But your eyes and your heart Are intent only upon your own dishonest gain, And on shedding innocent blood, And on practicing oppression and extortion.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

While it's on my mind, 2 Chronicles 30 tells the story of a massive Passover celebrated during the days of Hezekiah. It included a lot of animals being killed.

A key verse imo

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Chronicles 30:12 - New American Standard Bible

The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Is that an example of the fluid approach?

This is the passage I referenced:

Isaiah 1:10-15 KJV
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

When he says rulers of Sodom he is speaking to the rulers at Yerushalem who tread the temple and its courts, that is, he speaks to the Kohanim, (Priests), for they are the ones who offered the animal sacrifices and incense and prayers for the nation and the people. Moreover he says your new months and your appointed feasts, (not "My" new months or "My" appointed feasts). Moreover the Prophet speaks in these terms yet again to the same people, the rulers at Yerushalem temple who were the Kohanim.

Isaiah 28:5-18 KJV
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This covenant with death is the erroneous understanding of the animal sacrifices by way of misunderstanding and incorrect interpretation of the sacrifices in the Torah. It is also a reference to the warning given through Mosheh in Deuteronomy 30:10-20, "See, (pay attention) I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil...", and again, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life..."

This is about understanding, perception, interpretation, how you hear what you hear, and how you read and understand the Torah: and to choose the fleshly and carnal way of understanding is to choose death, (another reason Paul says that the natural mind of the natural man cannot please Elohim, for it cannot be subject to His Torah-Instruction, Romans 8:5-8).

And moreover this is what the Prophet says at the end of the book:

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

This is clearly saying that mankind is to be the holy temple of the Most High, not a temple building made with the hands of men, and this is confirmed in the testimony of Stephen in Acts 7 who quotes this passage and says that those rejecting this understanding are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears who are rejecting the Holy Spirit, (Acts 7:47-51).

And the Prophet continues:

Isaiah 66:3-4 KJV
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Again, it's the choice they made: they chose that in which the Most High delighted not, and in so doing they chose death, just as Mosheh warned against in Deuteronomy 30, and they made for themselves a covenant with death by way of slaughtering the innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim while imagining themselves to be obeying the Torah.

Psalms 51:
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6-7 KJV
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Matthew 12:7 KJV
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

This is the Word speaking:

Psalms 40:6-10 KJV
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [header of the Sefer, (Genesis 1)] it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [Torah] is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: [because the Torah is read continually in the synagogues and congregations] lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

The Master in the Gospel accounts and the Psalms and the Prophets tell an entirely different story than the Pharisaic-Sadducaic outward carnal-man understanding of the Torah which continues to be espoused even in most of the mainstream Christian world unto this day, (mostly so that the Torah may be rejected), even despite what Paul says about the Torah being spiritual, again, Romans 7:14a.

Dude, you made a massive addition to your post after I responded to it

That's cool, but it'll take some time to look it over

 

[Leaf473]

Is that an example of the fluid approach?

This is the passage I referenced:

Isaiah 1:10-15 KJV
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

When he says rulers of Sodom he is speaking to the rulers at Yerushalem who tread the temple and its courts, that is, he speaks to the Kohanim, (Priests), for they are the ones who offered the animal sacrifices and incense and prayers for the nation and the people. Moreover he says your new months and your appointed feasts, (not "My" new months or "My" appointed feasts). Moreover the Prophet speaks in these terms yet again to the same people, the rulers at Yerushalem temple who were the Kohanim.

Isaiah 28:5-18 KJV
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This covenant with death is the erroneous understanding of the animal sacrifices by way of misunderstanding and incorrect interpretation of the sacrifices in the Torah. It is also a reference to the warning given through Mosheh in Deuteronomy 30:10-20, "See, (pay attention) I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil...", and again, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life..."

This is about understanding, perception, interpretation, how you hear what you hear, and how you read and understand the Torah: and to choose the fleshly and carnal way of understanding is to choose death, (another reason Paul says that the natural mind of the natural man cannot please Elohim, for it cannot be subject to His Torah-Instruction, Romans 8:5-8).

And moreover this is what the Prophet says at the end of the book:

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

This is clearly saying that mankind is to be the holy temple of the Most High, not a temple building made with the hands of men, and this is confirmed in the testimony of Stephen in Acts 7 who quotes this passage and says that those rejecting this understanding are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears who are rejecting the Holy Spirit, (Acts 7:47-51).

And the Prophet continues:

Isaiah 66:3-4 KJV
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Again, it's the choice they made: they chose that in which the Most High delighted not, and in so doing they chose death, just as Mosheh warned against in Deuteronomy 30, and they made for themselves a covenant with death by way of slaughtering the innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim while imagining themselves to be obeying the Torah.

Psalms 51:
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6-7 KJV
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Matthew 12:7 KJV
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

This is the Word speaking:

Psalms 40:6-10 KJV
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [header of the Sefer, (Genesis 1)] it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [Torah] is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: [because the Torah is read continually in the synagogues and congregations] lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

The Master in the Gospel accounts and the Psalms and the Prophets tell an entirely different story than the Pharisaic-Sadducaic outward carnal-man understanding of the Torah which continues to be espoused even in most of the mainstream Christian world unto this day, (mostly so that the Torah may be rejected), even despite what Paul says about the Torah being spiritual, again, Romans 7:14a.

I'll grant that Solomon's Temple is not commanded by God, though he does seem to be in favor of it. But the temple built after the exile is done under the watchful eyes of Haggai and Zechariah.

Bible Gateway passage: Haggai 1:12 - New American Standard Bible

Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God and the words of Haggai the prophet, just as the LORD their God had sent him. And the people showed reverence for the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

Are you saying that Israel was never supposed to be sacrificing animals?

Bible Gateway passage: Ezra 8:35 - New American Standard Bible

The exiles who had come from the captivity offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel: twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, twelve male goats for a sin offering, all as a burnt offering to the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[daq]

Dude, you made a massive addition to your post after I responded to it

That's cool, but it'll take some time to look it over

I decided to edit that post and when I did you had not yet responded to it. As you may see by the information and highlighting, it took quite some time to edit, and you responded while I was editing. I actually thought about making a new post before the edit but thought that might be looked upon as bumping my own thread when no one had yet responded.

 

[Leaf473]

I decided to edit that post and when I did you had not yet responded to it. As you may see by the information and highlighting, it took quite some time to edit, and you responded while I was editing. I actually thought about making a new post before the edit but thought that might be looked upon as bumping my own thread when no one had yet responded.

It's all cool

I was just explaining why I was going to respond to the same post twice

 

[daq]

In the context of the situation prior in Gal 2:11-15, where the Gentiles were being required to follow Jewish customs; e.g., dietary restrictions, and likewise being "bewitched" (Gal 3:1) by the Judaizers who required circumcision for salvation (Gal 2:12), neither of which were the Decalogue, but were ceremonial laws, Paul reminds them that they did not receive the Holy Spirit by (ceremonial) law keeping, but by faith (Gal 3:2).

In the NT, Paul opposes the work of the flesh (human works) to the work of the Holy Spirit in the regenerated.
In Gal, he is addressing their trying to be righteous by human works, rather than it being a work of grace through faith.

It is you who misunderstands him.
Paul is referring to the "circumcision" law in Gal 3:2, as he was referring to "cleanliness" laws in Gal 2 and "calendrical" laws in Ga 4:8-11, none of which were part of the Decalogue, and for easy categorization, I refer to as ceremonial laws.

It is astonishing to me that you appear not to be able to distinguish between outward circumcision of the foreskin of the flesh and inward circumcision of the foreskin of the heart. Circumcision was and still is the seal which a convert undergoes when becoming a Jew. It is not the end all but the beginning seal signifying a lifelong commitment to undergo the process of learning ALL the ways of the Pharisee version, teachings, instructions, and view of the Torah. All of which is outward and physical minded. You are entirely missing the whole point: circumcision is not done away with but has now been rightly interpreted according to the Testimony and commandments of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts which Paul also states that he preaches.

Circumcision is of the heart and the Meshiah has been made the Minister of the Circumcision.
Paul says both of these things and the Torah teaches the same.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And this is the same passage where Mosheh warns the hearer and the reader that he has set before you life and good, and death and evil, (Deut 30:15), and life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, (Deut 30:19). And Paul even quotes from this same passage and expounds the Meshiah within it in Romans 10:6-8, proclaiming that "this is the rhema-Word which we preach", (rhema is rendered in the LXX for dabar Deut 30:14 which Paul quotes in Rom 10:8).

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

To say that the Torah speaks of physical circumcision is to choose the outward, natural, physical mindset of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and it is to choose death because it concerns your own choice in how you read, hear, and understand the holy Word of the Living Father who is Spirit and His Word is Spirit and spiritual, (again, as Paul says in Rom 7:14a, the Torah is spiritual).

Circumcision is not abolished and is still required.
This is circumcision:

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And Paul says that Meshiah has been made the Minister of [the] circumcision in Rom 15:8. Outward circumcision of the foreskin of the flesh of the male private part is therefore a "work of the law" and a deed of the body, the flesh: mortify the deeds of the body, Rom 8:13, mortify your members concerning/upon the earth, (of below), Col 3:5.

 

[Clare73]

It is astonishing to me that you appear not to be able to distinguish between outward circumcision of the foreskin of the flesh and inward circumcision of the foreskin of the heart.

The issue in Gal 2:11-15, 3:1-2, being discussed, was circumcision of the foreskin as necessary for salvation (to be admitted to the NT people of God).
The issue was not circumcision of the heart, it was circumcision of the penis, as necessary for NT salvation.

Circumcision was and still is the seal which a convert undergoes when becoming a Jew. It is not the end all but the beginning seal signifying a lifelong commitment to undergo the process of learning ALL the ways of the Pharisee version, teachings, instructions, and view of the Torah. All of which is outward and physical minded. You are entirely missing the whole point: circumcision is not done away with but has now been rightly interpreted according to the Testimony and commandments of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts which Paul also states that he preaches.

Circumcision is of the heart and the Meshiah has been made the Minister of the Circumcision.
Paul says both of these things and the Torah teaches the same.

Minister of the Circumcision in the NT means ministry to the Jews, as in Jesus and Peter, not administration of circumcision
Minister of the Uncircumcision in the NT means ministry to the Gentiles, as in Pau, not administration of uncircumcision.

 

[daq]

Minister of the Circumcision in the NT means ministry to the Jews, as in Jesus and Peter, not administration of circumcision

And where is this taught in the scripture? If not then it is just your opinion.

Minister of the Uncircumcision in the NT means ministry to the Gentiles, as in Pau, not administration of uncircumcision.

And where in the scripture do we read anything about a "Minister of the Uncircumcision"?
Even the passage I referenced includes the Nations or Gentiles:

Romans 15:3-12 ASV
3 For Christ also pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell upon me.
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope.
5 Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus:
6 that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Wherefore receive ye one another, even as Christ also received you, to the glory of God.
8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,
9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; And let all the peoples praise him.
12 And again, Isaiah saith, There shall be the root of Jesse, And he that ariseth to rule over the Gentiles; On him shall the Gentiles hope.

 

[Clare73]

And where is this taught in the scripture? If not then it is just your opinion.
And where in the scripture do we read anything about a "Minister of the Uncircumcision"?

'The Jews are often called the circumcision, while the Gentiles are often called the uncircumcision (Eph 2:11), the rest following accordingly.
That is, Christ is said to be a minister of the circumcision, as Peter is called the apostle of the circumcision, being sent to the people that were circumcised,(Ro 15:8). Likewise, Paul's ministry to the Gentiles is called the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7, 8), being appointed to deal with that people.

 

[daq]

'The Jews are often called the circumcision, while the Gentiles are often called the uncircumcision (Eph 2:11), the rest following accordingly.
That is, Christ is said to be a minister of the circumcision, as Peter is called the apostle of the circumcision, being sent to the people that were circumcised,(Ro 15:8). Likewise, Paul's ministry to the Gentiles is called the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7, 8), being appointed to deal with that people.

Have you indeed rightly divided the word of truth as it is meant in 2 Tim 2:15?

Those who view the Torah as teaching outward physical circumcision of the male private part are no different than the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Jews, Ishmaelites, Egyptians, Arabs, and Muslims in this regard, who all believe the same thing.

We who worship by the Spirit of Elohim, magnifying the Meshiah because of his Testimony, which is Spirit, and put no trust or faith or confidence in the flesh: we are the circumcision.

Philippians 3:1-5 KJV
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Because you have failed to rightly divide the word of truth, particularly in this regard, you do not fully understand the message of Paul or the Apostolic writings.

 

[Clare73]

Have you indeed rightly divided the word of truth as it is meant in 2 Tim 2:15?

Those who view the Torah as teaching outward physical circumcision of the male private part are no different than the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Jews, Ishmaelites, Egyptians, Arabs, and Muslims in this regard, who all believe the same thing.

Take it up with Lev 12:3.

We who worship by the Spirit of Elohim, magnifying the Meshiah because of his Testimony, which is Spirit, and put no trust or faith or confidence in the flesh: we are the circumcision.
Philippians 3:1-5 KJV
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Because you have failed to rightly divide the word of truth, particularly in this regard, you do not fully understand the message of Paul or the Apostolic writings.

In light of Lev 12:3, methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[daq]

Take it up with Lev 12:3.

In light of Lev 12:3, methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Perfect example of what I mean about rightly dividing the word of truth.

Leviticus 12:3 WLC
וּבַיֹּום הַשְּׁמִינִי יִמֹּול בְּשַׂר עָרְלָתֹֽו׃

The pointed Masoretic Hebrew text did not exist in the first century and wasn't even available until almost a thousand years later. The difference between basar and its root basar is the difference between flesh, the flesh, and the good news, a message, or a messenger of the implied message in the context. This is likely another reason Paul says that the Gospel or good news/message was preached to Abraham. The good message is expounded for you already in a previous post where Mosheh warns the reader that he has set before you life and good, and death and evil; life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life. However if one is not studying the original languages then someone else is doing the choosing for them.

Simple definitions from Mickelson's:

H1320 בָּשָׂר basar (baw-sawr') n-m.
1. flesh (from its freshness).
2. (by extension) body, person.
3. (by euphemism) the external genitals of a man.
[from H1319]
KJV: body, (fat, lean) flesh(-ed), kin, (man-)kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Now look at the root, H1319, for the above word:

H1319 בָּשַׂר basar (baw-sar') v.
1. (properly) to be fresh.
2. to be full (rosy).
3. (figuratively) to be cheerful.
4. to announce (glad news).
[a primitive root]
KJV: messenger, preach, publish, shew forth, (bear, bring, carry, preach, good, tell good) tidings.

The root is employed in well known and famous passages foretelling the good news, good message, or Gospel. Isaiah 52:7 is even quoted in Romans 10:15 after Paul has quoted from Deuteronomy 30 and is yet still expounding without a break in the discourse. Moreover, in the KJV, this same word is actually rendered as a messenger in the following passage:

1 Samuel 4:17 KJV
17 And the messenger [H1319 בָּשַׂר] answered and said, Israel is fled before the Philistines, and there hath been also a great slaughter among the people, and thy two sons also, Hophni and Phinehas, are dead, and the ark of God is taken.

If your proverbial messenger is misleading you in what you hear and perceive from the Word within your heart, then the messenger needs to be curtailed, cut away, or cut off, that is, circumcised: for he, (personified), is the old man nature Paul speaks and teaches so much about in his epistles. Again, the Torah is spiritual, just as Paul says in Romans 7:14a. Moreover we have also already seen where the Torah speaks of a foreskin of the heart. Everything has at least two ways of understanding: choose the good, the Life, and soon enough you will begin to be shown, and will begin to realize that there is not even any need to set aside or do away with the Torah.

 

[tdidymas]

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect outward and physical minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah.

If I read you right, I think you are correct here. Since Paul wrote that the law is powerless (Rom. 8:4), obeying the law can't make anyone holy or righteous in God's eyes. Just because someone appears righteous by obeying the law, it doesn't make a person acceptable to God. Only faith in Christ makes one acceptable, and this is a spiritual matter.

Incidentally, if a person believes that obeying the law is a cause of their acceptance with God, then their faith is really in themselves, in their ability to obey God's commands. The true believer understands that God's grace is the cause of their acceptance, and God's power and will are the cause of their right standing with God (resulting in right living); and it is through Christ's work that such is possible. Without this spiritual wisdom, faith in God falls short, and people then have only themselves to believe in.

 

[daq]

If I read you right, I think you are correct here. Since Paul wrote that the law is powerless (Rom. 8:4), obeying the law can't make anyone holy or righteous in God's eyes. Just because someone appears righteous by obeying the law, it doesn't make a person acceptable to God. Only faith in Christ makes one acceptable, and this is a spiritual matter.

Incidentally, if a person believes that obeying the law is a cause of their acceptance with God, then their faith is really in themselves, in their ability to obey God's commands. The true believer understands that God's grace is the cause of their acceptance, and God's power and will are the cause of their right standing with God (resulting in right living); and it is through Christ's work that such is possible. Without this spiritual wisdom, faith in God falls short, and people then have only themselves to believe in.

Yes, I agree with most all that you have offered. However it is more than that, specifically, that people who claim that by the phrase "the works of the Law" Paul means the whole Torah are just flat out wrong. Paul makes this clear by what he says in the OP passage, that is, very strongly implying that what he means by "the works of the Law" pertains to works of the flesh or deeds of the body: the outward physical works of which, (for example), outward physical circumcision is really the first such work and misdirects a disciple or adherent down the wrong path, and which is doubtless why Paul rails against physical circumcision so much more than all the other outward physical things in Pharisaic Torah interpretations.

The phrase "works of the Law" was a familiar term in first century Judaism and among Yhudim in general. However the Pharisaic-Sadducaic outward physical way of understanding "the works of the Law" was not the only way of understanding the Torah. As Yosephus informs us, there were four main sects in Yisrael in the first century: the Perushim, (Pharisees), the Zaddokim, (Sadducees), the Zealots, and the Hessenim, (Essenes). The Hessenim were almost no doubt those at what is now called Khirbet Qumran. Of the scrolls and fragments recovered from the caves at Qumran we actually have one fragment which mentions this phrase, ("the works of the Law"), and the context wherein it is used is very revealing in light of the fact that this Community vehemently disagreed with the Pharisees and Sadducees at Yerushelm in doctrine, and especially when it came to the animal sacrifices and interpretations of the Torah, (they were essentially either vegetarians or pescatarians, (fish only as far as meat)).

Geza Vermes translated the fragment where this phrase was found:

QUOTE:]
Florilegium or Midrash on the Last Days
(4Q174) This collection of texts assembled from 2 Samuel and the Psalter, and combined with other scriptural passages, serves to present the sectarian doctrine identifying the Community with the Temple, and to announce the coming of the two Messiahs, the ‘Branch of David’ and the ‘Interpreter of the Law’. Originating from Cave 4 (4Q174) and known also as ‘Florilegium’, it probably belongs to the late first century BCE. For the editio princeps, see J. M. Allegro and A. A. Anderson, DJD, V, 53-7.

I ... [I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them that they may dwell there and be troubled no more by their] enemies. No son of iniquity [shall afflict them again] as formerly, from the day that [I set judges] over my people Israel (2 Sam. vii, 10). This is the House which [He will build for them in the] last days, as it is written in the book of Moses, In the sanctuary which Thy hands have established, O Lord, the Lord shall reign for ever and ever (Exod. xv, 17-18). This is the House into which [the unclean shall] never [enter, nor the uncircumcised,] nor the Ammonite, nor the Moabite, nor the half-breed, nor the foreigner, nor the stranger, ever; for there shall My Holy Ones be. [Its glory shall endure] for ever; it shall appear above it perpetually And strangers shall lay it waste no more, as they formerly laid waste the Sanctuary of Israel because of its sin. He has commanded that a Sanctuary of men be built for Himself, that there they may send up, like the smoke of incense, the works of the Law.
— Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English
[END QUOTE.

Note the final line, (bold red highlighting is mine), which contains the phrase, "the works of the Law". It may clearly be seen by the context herein that the understanding of the one who penned this was surely not the same as the Pharisaic-Sadducaic view of "the works of the Law" described by Paul: for the text speaks of sending up prayers, ("like the smoke of incense"), as if the prayers themselves either contain or are themselves "the works of the Law" which the worshiper is sending up before the Most High. This author has a correct interpretation-understanding.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If I read you right, I think you are correct here. Since Paul wrote that the law is powerless (Rom. 8:4), obeying the law can't make anyone holy or righteous in God's eyes. Just because someone appears righteous by obeying the law, it doesn't make a person acceptable to God. Only faith in Christ makes one acceptable, and this is a spiritual matter.

Incidentally, if a person believes that obeying the law is a cause of their acceptance with God, then their faith is really in themselves, in their ability to obey God's commands. The true believer understands that God's grace is the cause of their acceptance, and God's power and will are the cause of their right standing with God (resulting in right living); and it is through Christ's work that such is possible. Without this spiritual wisdom, faith in God falls short, and people then have only themselves to believe in.

I would suggest bringing the whole context to Romans 8:4 because Paul is not making a case we should not obey God's commandments. He is referring to the struggle between the flesh (sin) and walking in the Spirit (no sin). The law he is referring to in v4 is summed up in v2 law of the Spirit of life vs the law of sin and death. Verse one says there is no condemnation (wages of sin is death) for those in Christ. Those who are in Christ keep the law of God v7 (not sinning 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7) and those who do not keep the law of God are those who are in flesh(sin) and cannot please God v8. Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments God 1 Cor 7:19 not as a way to be justified but through faith and love 1 John 5:3 Rom 3:31 which leads to righteousness Romans 6:16


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.