VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You were quoting Rev 3:10 and I was giving you the another example that one can stay in the world and be guarded/kept an eye on.

Keep in the Greek does not mean removal from the earth.

As for the other verses, seen them all before, posted about them all before-they do not prove a pretrib rapture. Far from it. Christ is returning in those verses, not making some mid way pit stop. That's totally unbiblical.
I'll heed the warnings that both Christ and Paul give on this subject about deception and take their word that our gathering back together will not happen until certain events happen and believe that heaven must retain Christ until the restitution of all things. It's written and that's what I believe.

You intentionally used a Bible version about Rev 3:10 that has different wording. It's an incorrect version about that verse. I used a version that is correct. "The hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib, because it's the only international "hour of trail." Furthermore, the very demeaning "those who dwell on earth" is missed by you detractors. That's about unbelievers. Jesus said in that verse, "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." "I will keep you from the hour of trial" is about the rapture because the rapture takes us to Heaven, as all unbelievers will "dwell on the earth." If they become hardened unbelievers, they will either die in sin and be judged at the GWTJ or they'll be judged at the separation of sheep and goats in Matt 25:31-46. In Rev 19:14 we find how they GM (Great Multitude) gets to Earth after being resurrected and taken to Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

 

[keras]

Why don't you stick to the verse quoted? It's about John 17:15. You're dodging what the context is. John 17:15 (NIV): My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ----- Jesus was only praying for the disciples in that verse.

I actually think you don't know what the word 'context' means.
John 17:20 is in the context of verse 15 and it proves you wrong. Get over it and really show the strength of your faith by discarding all of your false beliefs. Be assured; God will reward those who overcome their wrong beliefs.

Thanks JulieB67, Jesus said for us to take care to not be deceived, Seems some have been very careless.

 

[JulieB67]

I used a version that is correct.

I used a version that can be taken back to the Greek manuscripts if necessary. And again, I was pointing out that the Greek definition of the word keep is not a removal from the earth. I'm sure if removal/rapture were meant, another word would have been used.

The hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib, because it's the only international "hour of trail." Furthermore, the very demeaning "those who dwell on earth" is missed by you detractors. That's about unbelievers.

Totally unbiblical. We can't add to God's word. We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I will keep you from the hour of trial" is about the rapture because the rapture takes us to Heaven, as all unbelievers will "dwell on the earth.

Again, not biblical. Yes, this is a trial and some will be giving testimony and it's that testimony (the word of truth) that will overcome Satan and his.

That's why Paul states this gospel armour is for the "evil day".

These are Christians, these letters are to churches-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

It's being described again, here-

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."


Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Are you really incapable of not understanding this verse?

We have to come out of confusion if possible. I used to believe as you did as well when I was indoctrinated by this false doctrine but it is not biblical. And I'm glad it's not. What right do we have to escape tribulation when all of our former fellow Christians didn't? And he never states we will not go through tribulation. He promises to keep/guard over us. God will protect his own. Our souls are what's important. His wrath isn't for us, if we keep the faith, full gospel armour in place and let him use us however he sees fit. And we have to accept and receive the love of the truth as Paul states. We don't want to be one of the ones falling away and later praying for mountains to fall on us in shame if we do when the true Christ returns.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Context Jeffery?
Obviously you wouldn't know context if it fell on you.
John 17:20 It is not for them alone, [the disciples] that I pray, but for all those who through their teaching, have put their faith in Me.

So what do you do now? Jesus prayed that you would NOT be taken out of this world.
If you had the moral fortitude, you and all those poor saps who have fallen for the lie of a rapture removal to heaven, would immediately renounce that false belief and prepare spiritually and physically for the soon to come; great test of our faith. 1Thess 5:3 is a Prophecy of that sudden and shocking Day, a literal 24 hour day when the earth will shudder and shake, extreme heat, powerful winds and huge tsunamis.
Billions will die, but those who call upon His Name will be saved. By His protection.

John 17 is about Jesus preparing to go to the cross. He wants His disciples and recent converts to stay. This was all a very local matter at that time. Why? Most, if not all of those folks did not understand that Jesus was about to be crucified.

Fast forward to the future: Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus will keep us "from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." The only "hour of trial that is coming on the whole world" is Daniel's 70th week, the 7-year Trib. To "keep us from the hour of trial," Jesus will fulfill 1 Th 1:10, John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17. All of those verses are about when Jesus will come back and "take up" us (John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:17) straight to Heaven. We return with Jesus seven years later as part of his army in Rev 19:14 (NLT): The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses.

You can't refute one verse for the application I cited.

Context Jeffery?
Obviously you wouldn't know context if it fell on you.
John 17:20 It is not for them alone, [the disciples] that I pray, but for all those who through their teaching, have put their faith in Me.

So what do you do now? Jesus prayed that you would NOT be taken out of this world.
If you had the moral fortitude, you and all those poor saps who have fallen for the lie of a rapture removal to heaven, would immediately renounce that false belief and prepare spiritually and physically for the soon to come; great test of our faith. 1Thess 5:3 is a Prophecy of that sudden and shocking Day, a literal 24 hour day when the earth will shudder and shake, extreme heat, powerful winds and huge tsunamis.
Billions will die, but those who call upon His Name will be saved. By His protection.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You were quoting Rev 3:10 and I was giving you the another example that one can stay in the world and be guarded/kept an eye on.

Keep in the Greek does not mean removal from the earth.

As for the other verses, seen them all before, posted about them all before-they do not prove a pretrib rapture. Far from it. Christ is returning in those verses, not making some mid way pit stop. That's totally unbiblical.
I'll heed the warnings that both Christ and Paul give on this subject about deception and take their word that our gathering back together will not happen until certain events happen and believe that heaven must retain Christ until the restitution of all things. It's written and that's what I believe.

The use of "keep" is to "keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." That means we will be removed from earth before the Trib. The wording itself says so, and, "to try those who dwell on the earth." When the Trib starts, only unbelievers (and protected servants of God -- Rev 7:1-8 and, later, Rev 11:3) will be on Earth. Rev 3:10 is referring to the degenerates on Earth, the unbelievers.

 

[keras]

The use of "keep" is to "keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." That means we will be removed from earth before the Trib.

Here is how God will save and protect those who have faith and trust in His protection:

When you call, I will answer:
Psalms 91 is the prayer of the British Ninety First Battalion, and during the First World War, at every morning parade, they recited that Psalm – as a prayer. Throughout that terrible war, not one was killed due to enemy action. The Lord DOES protect those who trust in Him!

Psalms 91:1-4 Those who live in the shelter of the Most High, who live under the shadow of the Lord, those who say : He is my refuge and strength, in Him I put my trust. He will rescue you from the enemy’s traps and deadly disease. He will cover and protect you, you will find refuge in His truth, that will be your shield and armour. Psalm 9:10, Psalm 109:26-29, Psalm 121:1-8, Proverbs 9:10, Job 22:30

Psalms 91:5-8 You will not fear the terrors abroad at night or the arrows that fly by day and the destruction that comes unexpectedly. A 1000 may fall by your side, 10,000 close by, but you will not be touched. With your own eyes, you will see this, you will see the retribution of the wicked. Psalms 23:4, Psalms 18:4-6. Isaiah 43:2

Psalms 91:9-13 Surely You are my refuge, I have made the Most High my place of safety and no disaster will befall me. For He will charge His angels to guard you and lift you up in all your ways. No snake or wild animal shall harm you. Psalm 70:1-5, Jer.15:21

Psalm 97:10-12 The Lord loves those who hate evil, He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the power of the wicked. A harvest of light has arisen for the righteous and joy for the upright in heart. You that are righteous, rejoice in the Lord and praise His holy Name.

Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might, may He give you strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes and to give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share in the heritage of the Lord’s people in the Kingdom of His Light. Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

 

[keras]

All of those verses are about when Jesus will come back and "take up" us (John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:17) straight to Heaven.

You are a recidivist promoter of false teachings. Those verses only mention heaven as the place Jesus descends from.

What right do we have to escape tribulation when all of our former fellow Christians didn't?

Good point.
Tell us why God should take you to heaven, when no other Christian, under real persecution has been rescued to heaven?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Here is how God will save and protect those who have faith and trust in His protection:

When you call, I will answer:
Psalms 91 is the prayer of the British Ninety First Battalion, and during the First World War, at every morning parade, they recited that Psalm – as a prayer. Throughout that terrible war, not one was killed due to enemy action. The Lord DOES protect those who trust in Him!

Psalms 91:1-4 Those who live in the shelter of the Most High, who live under the shadow of the Lord, those who say : He is my refuge and strength, in Him I put my trust. He will rescue you from the enemy’s traps and deadly disease. He will cover and protect you, you will find refuge in His truth, that will be your shield and armour. Psalm 9:10, Psalm 109:26-29, Psalm 121:1-8, Proverbs 9:10, Job 22:30

Psalms 91:5-8 You will not fear the terrors abroad at night or the arrows that fly by day and the destruction that comes unexpectedly. A 1000 may fall by your side, 10,000 close by, but you will not be touched. With your own eyes, you will see this, you will see the retribution of the wicked. Psalms 23:4, Psalms 18:4-6. Isaiah 43:2

Psalms 91:9-13 Surely You are my refuge, I have made the Most High my place of safety and no disaster will befall me. For He will charge His angels to guard you and lift you up in all your ways. No snake or wild animal shall harm you. Psalm 70:1-5, Jer.15:21

Psalm 97:10-12 The Lord loves those who hate evil, He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the power of the wicked. A harvest of light has arisen for the righteous and joy for the upright in heart. You that are righteous, rejoice in the Lord and praise His holy Name.

Colossians 1:11-12 In His glorious might, may He give you strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes and to give joyful thanks to the Father who has made you fit to share in the heritage of the Lord’s people in the Kingdom of His Light. Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

You have cited verses that are not about the Trib. You go this route because you can't refute the meaning of Jesus' words in Rev 3:10 and John 14:3, and Paul's writings in 1 Th 4:16-17. I know you're desperate to invalidate the pre-Trib rapture, but Jesus' words won't let you do that. I have no reason to believe in the pre-Trib rapture other than it is the rapture in Scripture that removes the Church before the Trib.

Let's look at Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

The words "keep you from" are the "I will come back and take you to be with me" of John 14:3. The "hour of trial" is then mentioned in relation to "the inhabitants of the earth." That phrase is only about the degenerates and hardcore unbelievers left behind after the rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are a recidivist promoter of false teachings. Those verses only mention heaven as the place Jesus descends from.

Good point.
Tell us why God should take you to heaven, when no other Christian, under real persecution has been rescued to heaven?

This is what Paul says about those who enter the Trib.

2 Th 2:9-12 (NIV): 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

There are no believers who enter the Trib. There are servants of God who are selected, protected and sent to help spread the gospel of Jesus Christ: Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 11:3. From those efforts, we see the first converts as martyrs in Rev 6:9. Those souls are the first group of the GM (Great Multitude). The second group is in Rev 20:4.

 

[JulieB67]

Jeffrey, do you not understand these verses?


Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"


Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Verse 21 tells us Christ must remain in heaven unto the time of restitution of all things. To say he leaves heaven before that would be a lie.

Or this one

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There are two advents, that's it- nothing in between. It's simple if we let the scriptures speak for themselves. Christ never taught a rapture and the mystery that Paul talks about is the fact that all are "changed" at the last trump. The mystery was not a pretrib rapture to heaven.

The only confusion that arose was the Thessalonians and Paul corrected them in his second letter stating our gathering back together would not happen until the the falling away (apostasty/ fall away always means defection from the faith, not departure from the earth) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

Christ taught that as well, he states, if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. He doesn't state you won't be there so don't worry, quite the opposite. He gives out strict warning about deception.

About his return, he and Paul state 'watch" so your house isn't broken up and that day does not overtake you as a thief. Meaning you won't be surprised like the rest of the world when he returns.

Neither taught a pretrib rapture.

God will protect his own in that time.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, do you not understand these verses?


Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"


Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Verse 21 tells us Christ must remain in heaven unto the time of restitution of all things. To say he leaves heaven before that would be a lie.

Or this one

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There are two advents, that's it- nothing in between. It's simple if we let the scriptures speak for themselves. Christ never taught a rapture and the mystery that Paul talks about is the fact that all are "changed" at the last trump. The mystery was not a pretrib rapture to heaven.

The only confusion that arose was the Thessalonians and Paul corrected them in his second letter stating our gathering back together would not happen until the the falling away (apostasty/ fall away always means defection from the faith, not departure from the earth) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

Christ taught that as well, he states, if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. He doesn't state you won't be there so don't worry, quite the opposite. He gives out strict warning about deception.

About his return, he and Paul state 'watch" so your house isn't broken up and that day does not overtake you as a thief. Meaning you won't be surprised like the rest of the world when he returns.

Neither taught a pretrib rapture.

God will protect his own in that time.

Why don't you address Rev 3:10, John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17, which are all in alignment with Jesus coming back and rapturing all believers into Heaven? Do you understand that Jesus does not return to Earth in the rapture? He is hidden in clouds the whole time (1 Th 4:17). That's a VERY important point. It is provable and it thereby invalidates any association of Matt 24:30 with the rapture. There is actual proof Jesus is behind clouds the whole time in the rapture.

The 2nd Advent is Jesus' return to Earth in all His glory, with angels and His army. Armageddon happens, the AC and the false prophet are sent to Hell, then separation of the sheep and goats, then the Millennial Kingdom, then the attack on the camp of the saints, then Satan is sent to Hell, then the Great White Throne of Judgement, then all things new. That is the total program of Jesus returning to Earth. That program lasts over 1,000 years. There is never a rapture to Heaven from the 2A to the Great White Throne of Judgement.

 

[JulieB67]

Why don't you address Rev 3:10, John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17,

Because I and others already have.

Do you understand that Jesus does not return to Earth in the rapture?

I understand he returns to the earth period at the second advent. There's not one scripture stating otherwise.

He is hidden

Not biblical. He comes with clouds and all eyes shall see him.

He is hidden in clouds the whole time (1 Th 4:17).

You need to read past chapter 4 (not stopping and straight into 5) Context is important. These were letters. There were no chapters. And Paul is continuing his train of thought into chapter 5.

And again we can't get around this verse-

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

The verse below we have him descending from heaven, meaning it is the time of restitution of all things. This can only be after the tribulation. A pretrib rapture doesn't cut it. That is not the restitution of "all things". Far from it. Restitution in the Greek means restore, he will restore all things. Again, a pretrib rapture doesn't fit there.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

It can't be made any clearer. He will not leave heaven until the restitution of "all things" so if we see a verse that states he's descending from heaven, than we can know that's happening.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Because I and others already have.


I understand he returns to the earth period at the second advent. There's not one scripture stating otherwise.

Not biblical. He comes with clouds and all eyes shall see him.





You need to read past chapter 4 (not stopping and straight into 5) Context is important. These were letters. There were no chapters. And Paul is continuing his train of thought into chapter 5.

And again we can't get around this verse-

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

The verse below we have him descending from heaven, meaning it is the time of restitution of all things. This can only be after the tribulation. A pretrib rapture doesn't cut it. That is not the restitution of "all things". Far from it. Restitution in the Greek means restore, he will restore all things. Again, a pretrib rapture doesn't fit there.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

It can't be made any clearer. He will not leave heaven until the restitution of "all things" so if we see a verse that states he's descending from heaven, than we can know that's happening.

The rapture is contained in 1 Th 4:16-17. Verse 16's trumpet has one function: to raise the dead in Christ. That trumpet is sounded only once. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 has one function: to send out angels to gather the elect. That trumpet is also sounded only once. The trumpet in verse 31 is not the same trumpet in verse 16. They share nothing in common in their singular purposes. Therefore, verse 16 has nothing to do with the 2A. The 2A has its own trumpet in verse 31.

Verse 16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

In verse 16, the LORD descends by himself. In Matt 24:30-31, Jesus descends with many angels. Another contradiction in claiming verse 16 is the 2A.

In Rev 19:14 (ESV): And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

In the 2A, Jesus is followed by "the armies of heaven," per Rev 19:14. Another contradiction with verse 16.

There is no way 1 Th 4:16 has any relationship to the 2A.

1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It's almost instant. The trumpet sounds in verse 16 which raises the dead in Christ. Then, we will be "caught up" together with them (the raised dead in Christ) into the clouds to meet the LORD in the air...

Jesus is never seen in verse 16. He is only seen once we pass through clouds in verse 17.

This is in perfect alignment with John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

In verse 3, Jesus will come and "take you to myself," that where I am you may be also. Where is Jesus now? He will come and take us to Heaven.

Jesus comes and takes us to Heaven. That is exactly what happens in 1 Th 4:16-17.

There is a rapture, because Jesus said so: "I will come again and will take you to myself." John 14:3. There is no other meaning that attaches to verse 3, other than rapture. And, when will that rapture be? Rev 3:10 provides the answer: Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

 

[JulieB67]

Verse 16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

In verse 16, the LORD descends by himself. In Matt 24:30-31, Jesus descends with many angels. Another contradiction in claiming verse 16 is the 2A.

Apparently you don't believe this verse

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

You obviously believe he will leave heaven before the restitution of all things. You think he's going to descend from heaven (even going against this very verse) and make a mid stop to only go right back. Which makes no sense whatsover. But believe what you will.

I'm not going to go around and around once more though so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Because I and others already have.


I understand he returns to the earth period at the second advent. There's not one scripture stating otherwise.

Not biblical. He comes with clouds and all eyes shall see him.





You need to read past chapter 4 (not stopping and straight into 5) Context is important. These were letters. There were no chapters. And Paul is continuing his train of thought into chapter 5.

And again we can't get around this verse-

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

The verse below we have him descending from heaven, meaning it is the time of restitution of all things. This can only be after the tribulation. A pretrib rapture doesn't cut it. That is not the restitution of "all things". Far from it. Restitution in the Greek means restore, he will restore all things. Again, a pretrib rapture doesn't fit there.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

It can't be made any clearer. He will not leave heaven until the restitution of "all things" so if we see a verse that states he's descending from heaven, than we can know that's happening.

Julie, I proved it is unbiblical that you are connecting 1 Th 4:16 to Matt 24:30-31. The trumpet in v16 gathers the dead in Christ, only. The trumpet in v31 sends out angels to gather the elect. Each trumpet sounds only once, and you are having them as one to sound twice. You are connecting verses that don't connect biblically.

Since the trumpets don't connect biblically, neither do the rest of those verses. That means v30-31 have Jesus on full display for the whole world to see, but v16 does not. If you look closely at v16-17, Jesus is cited at two locations only: descending from Heaven, and behind clouds. He is never said to be seen in His descent, but His descent obviously occurs 100% behind clouds.

In v30, Jesus is on clouds. He is never on clouds in v16-17. Again, He is only behind clouds in v17. We can't input what isn't there. Please go by what the Bible says in v16-17. For that matter, I, again, fully acknowledge Jesus is seen by the whole world in the 2A, in v30. You have to accept what the Bible says and doesn't say. That means in v16-v17 Jesus is NOT SEEN by the world below. Please don't change the actual text of v16-17; Jesus is first seen by we who are raptured, once we pass through the clouds in v17.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Apparently you don't believe this verse

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

You obviously believe he will leave heaven before the restitution of all things. You think he's going to descend from heaven (even going against this very verse) and make a mid stop to only go right back. Which makes no sense whatsover. But believe what you will.

I'm not going to go around and around once more though so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

I appreciate your citation of Acts 3:21. That sounds like what the rapture will accomplish. All believers of record will be taken to Heaven.

Here's the proof:

Jesus does not return in the rapture. In his own words, in John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

That is the fulfillment of 1 Th 4:16-17. Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds the whole time, and the dead in Christ are raised, then we join together and pass through those clouds and meet Jesus in the air.

Jesus is never "on clouds," as He is in the 2A. He is behind clouds the entire time of the rapture; 1 Th 4:17 is the proof. We will not see Him until we pass through those clouds. We will then see Jesus in the air. That is what 1 Th 4:17 proves.

There's other proof in how Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9, because it says in Acts 1:11 that Jesus "will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

In the ascension, Jesus ascended alone and was only in the view of believers (His disciples). He ascended into clouds, then into Heaven.

When Jesus comes back, He will descend from Heaven, by Himself (1 Th 4:16), into clouds only into the view of believers (1 Th 4:17).

Rev 3:10 proves the timing of all this: pre-Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Apparently you don't believe this verse

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

You obviously believe he will leave heaven before the restitution of all things. You think he's going to descend from heaven (even going against this very verse) and make a mid stop to only go right back. Which makes no sense whatsover. But believe what you will.

I'm not going to go around and around once more though so we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

The restoration of Acts 3:21 is about restoring belief in Jesus as the Messiah. The man who was lame from birth, was fully healed (restored). This was an example of the power of Jesus to forgive sin and renew us in every way, if we believe and repent.

I believe the next great step in this restoration will be the pre-Trib rapture. The unbelieving world will be shocked into believing in Jesus. Many folks will thereby come to Christ in the Trib. They will be martyrs. The first group of martyrs is in Rev 6:9. Those souls are in Heaven, under the altar before God's throne. They must await their "fellow servants" to be killed as they were, for their testimony of Jesus. Those fellow servants are the souls under that same altar in Rev 20:4.

God is giving this world another chance to believe in Jesus. The world of remaining unbelievers will have until the 2A to make up their minds about Jesus; perhaps until the separation of the sheep and goats. Still, even in the MK, many will be able to be deceived by Satan and turn on Jesus. Truly, full restoration will not occur until all things are new (Rev 21).

 

[keras]

Rescue and Restoration of the Righteous Peoples, NOT a rapture removal:

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will de-populate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rescue and Restoration of the Righteous Peoples, NOT a rapture removal:

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will de-populate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

Thank you. I stand on my prior statements that cite the words of Jesus regarding the rapture (John 14:3) and that the rapture occurs pre-Trib (Rev 3:10).

 

[Dan Perez]

Thank you. I stand on my prior statements that cite the words of Jesus regarding the rapture (John 14:3) and that the rapture occurs pre-Trib (Rev 3:10).

And looked at John 14:3 and did not see the Greek word RAPTURE there at all .

And there is not Greek word called RAPTURE in the bible at ALL .

Those I believe that Christ is coming back for Th BODY OF CHRIST it is listed in Gal 1:4 RESCUE // EXAIREO .

In 2 Thess 2:1 using the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA .

In 2 Thess 2:3 and they translated it FALLING AWAY // which is the Greek word APOSTASIA , which means DEPARTURE .

That departure of the B O C COME FIRST // PROTOS And then the Mn of Sin should be REVEALED and that is WHY I am

Pre- Trib

Then here is and other one in 1 Thess 4:17 CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

And in Gal 1:4 uses the Greek RESCUE // EXIREO it pluck us OUT .

This Greek word DEPARTURE is also used in Acts 21:21

dan p