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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

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Douggg

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Just so you understand. I understand the book of revelations on start and finish. With real close dates to back up the events.
It is Revelation, not revelations.

The dead in Christ rise at the fourth Trumpet, The last Trumpet them alive go to heaven. But its sixth trumpet, fifth trumpet, fourth trumpet, third, second, first, then seventh,
1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The "last trump" as used in 1Corinthians15:52 is not referring to the angels sounding their trumpets in Revelation 8, but the trump of God, and the voice of the archangel - i.e Jesus saying "come forth, and come up hither" his voice sounding like a trumpet - in 1Thessalonians4:16-17. In Revelation 4:1, John was called up to heaven the same way, by Jesus...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The sound of Jesus's voice for the rapture/resurrection will be last trumpet we are going to hear - here on earth.

In 1Thessalonians4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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It is Revelation, not revelations.


1Corhtianias 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The "last trump" as used in 1Corinthians15:52 is not referring to the angels sounding their trumpets in Revelation 8, but the trump of God, and the voice of the archangel - i.e Jesus saying "come forth, and come up hither" his voice sounding like a trumpet - in 1Thessalonians4:16-17. In Revelation 4:1, John was called up to heaven the same way, by Jesus...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The sound of Jesus's voice for the rapture will be last trumpet we are going to hear - here on earth.

In 1Thessaloniasns4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The last trump is widely misunderstood. It is the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16. This article makes the strongest case for that, and this article is just one-page long. God bless!

 
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Douggg

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The last trump is widely misunderstood. It is the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16. This article makes the strongest case for that, and this article is just one-page long. God bless!

Yes, that is another good argument for the last trumpet - i.e. a comparison to the movement of the exodus camp while in the wilderness with the sounding of the last trumpet to go forward as one unit. I have considered it myself.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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[Response to Post 1] Probably not. Very weak support for it in Scripture. I don't put my faith in a doctrine created by a man.. I put my faith in Christ. Whatever happens will happen in God's time and God's way.
Let me guess. The famous line: "a doctrine created by a man" is in reference to the pre-Trib rapture, right?

Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Those are the words of Jesus clearly about the pre-Trib rapture (the rapture before "the hour of trial," otherwise known as the 7-year Trib). Oh, and those other words: "to try those who dwell on the earth." Those are not endearing words about saints. Those are very harsh words about unbelievers who will face God's wrath in the 7-year Trib.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Yes, that is another good argument for the last trumpet - i.e. a comparison to the movement of the exodus camp while in the wilderness with the sounding of the last trumpet to go forward as one unit. I have considered it myself.
Here's another little-known fact about 1 Th 4:16. There is no physical trumpet involved. It's all about Jesus' trumpet voice, as in Rev 4:1 (NLT): Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus is by himself, that means there is no archangel present. He will descend with "a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." Those are descriptions only of Jesus' tremendous trumpet voice. There is no archangel present. The "with the voice of an archangel" is describing Jesus' cry of command in more powerful terms. The "and with the sound of the trumpet of God" is the clincher. Exodus 19:19 (ESV): And as the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him in thunder. ---- The Trumpet of God is Jesus' incredible trumpet voice.

In 1 Th 4:16, all accept it as Jesus' voice in "a cry of command." The next words: "with the voice of an archangel," further amplifies the "cry of command." along with "and with the sound of the trumpet of God." The "and with" connects all the foregoing about Jesus' voice. It's the SOUND of the trumpet of God." The words are always about the voice, not about an archangel and not about a physical trumpet.
 
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keras

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1 Th 4:16 is about Jesus coming back. John 14:3 (NIV) "... I will come back ..."

1 Th 4:17 is about all believers of record being taken up into clouds ... and we will forever be with Him.

John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
These 3 verses describe the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
Explain to me why you believe we Christians go to live in heaven, while King Jesus is in Jerusalem?

I draw your attention to Revelation 5:9-10, which plainly says the faithful Christians will reign with Him on earth.

Re: Revelation 3:10, your use of that Prophecy to support a rapture to heaven, is very tenuous and in reality does not do that at all.
That verse reiterates Luke 21:35, which states: that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over....
Then Luke 21:36 tells us to pray for the strength to escape all that is coming...... 'escape', as in avoid or be protected from. NOT removal.
Those are the words of Jesus clearly about the pre-Trib rapture (the rapture before "the hour of trial," otherwise known as the 7-year Trib). Oh, and those other words: "to try those who dwell on the earth." Those are not endearing words about saints. Those are very harsh words about unbelievers who will face God's wrath in the 7-year Trib.
Clearly? Rev 3:10 clearly does not say there will be a rapture removal.
Many scriptures say we must all be tested and tried, 1 Peter 4:12, and only those who prove their faith will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

You are also confused and in error about the Great Tribulation, which will be for 3 1/2 years.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Purely an assumption. One that wrongly adds the word 'heaven' to that scripture.
The angels who Jesus will send out at His Return, Matthew 24:31, will gather His faithful people to where He is going to: Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4

That every eye will see the glorious Return of Jesus, is plainly told to us in Revelation 1:7

You continue to make wild and rather desperate assertions, which are easily refuted.
Simply put: the rapture to heaven belief is a fable and people who grip onto it are deluded. It will be a difficult time for them, as dramatic things happen and they won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

Please explain the intended meaning by Jesus in Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

What is meant by "keep you from?"

What is meant by "the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world?"

Who are "those who dwell on the earth?" Please note how demeaning those words are: "those who dwell on earth." At the beginning of the Trib, only unbelievers "dwell on earth." The 144k (Rev 7:1-8) will be among them. They are protected servants of God who go to Heaven (Rev 14:3). The 2W are ultimately killed, then three days later they are resurrected and raptured to Heaven in Rev 11:12. The GM are all martyrs (new converts in the Trib), and they end up in Heaven (Rev 7:11).

In Rev 3:10, Jesus is aligning with 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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These 3 verses describe the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
Explain to me why you believe we Christians go to live in heaven, while King Jesus is in Jerusalem?

I draw your attention to Revelation 5:9-10, which plainly says the faithful Christians will reign with Him on earth.

Re: Revelation 3:10, your use of that Prophecy to support a rapture to heaven, is very tenuous and in reality does not do that at all.
That verse reiterates Luke 21:35, which states: that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over....
Then Luke 21:36 tells us to pray for the strength to escape all that is coming...... 'escape', as in avoid or be protected from. NOT removal.

Clearly? Rev 3:10 clearly does not say there will be a rapture removal.
Many scriptures say we must all be tested and tried, 1 Peter 4:12, and only those who prove their faith will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

You are also confused and in error about the Great Tribulation, which will be for 3 1/2 years.
The proof of the pre-Trib rapture centers on the start of God’s wrath in the Trib.

Ezekiel 5:15-17 say that famines, plagues and wild beasts are sent by God “in anger and in wrath.”

That exact wrath is in Rev 6:8, the 4th seal.

1 Th 1:10 says we’ll be rescued (raptured) beforehand
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The proof of the pre-Trib rapture centers on the start of God’s wrath in the Trib.

Ezekiel 5:15-17 say that famines, plagues and wild beasts are sent by God “in anger and in wrath.”

That exact wrath is in Rev 6:8, the 4th seal.

1 Th 1:10 says we’ll be rescued (raptured) beforehand
1 Th 4:16-17 is when Jesus comes to TAKE US UP straight to Heaven. That is in 100% alignment with John 14:3: Jesus comes back, and he TAKES US UP straight to Heaven.
 
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Oseas

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Matthew 5:5 - Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and WE Shall reign on the earth.

John 17:15-16
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.

Revelation 11:15 - The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:24-27
24 The END cometh, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER.


25 For He must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. --> Luke 20:35-36 and Philippians 3:20-21. Take a look


Be careful and get ready - Matthew 25:6&11-> 6 ... at midnight (at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, something similar to the event occurred in Genesis 3:8) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. 10 - ...the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 - Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. -->Too late, the door had closed, there will not be more any chance. Too late to be saved from Eternal perdition, the door had closed. Lost , lost for ever, for all Eternity, lost for ever. It will make you cry bitterly.

It will make you cry bitterly
 
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Oseas

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Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a Day when the sons of GOD(compare with John 1:11-13) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth GOD, and escheweth evil?



Around 2000 years ago, Paul Apostle wrote to the Church of Thessalonians, saying: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and 9-12:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ (the Lord's Day) is at hand. (The Lord's Day or Day of Christ, it is the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day (Lord's Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin BE REVEALED, the son of perdition; (Satan himself)

4 Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called GOD, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Revelation 16:13-15

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs(why frogs?) come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 13:11), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(the MAN Beast of sea), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet
(a false messiah, a false lamb-John 5:43-47).

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The Lord warned;

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 
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Oseas

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Based in the Word of GOD, the source of the Truth, on GOD's six Days of creation and one Day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years (2Peter 3:8; ) so MANKIND, yeah, MANKIND, would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years). Actually, Genesis is a Plan of GOD to restitution or restoration of all things-Acts 3:v.17 to 26-, according they were in the garden of Eden.

That said, in accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days beginning in Genesis chapter 5, as follow:

Adam lived …..................................................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ………………………………………………….........105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ........................................................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived.........................................................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived .................................................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived .......................................................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ........................................................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah
Methuselah lived...........................................................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ..................................................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood..........................600 yrs.
Total of years from Adam to the Flood =.........1,656 years.

SIX PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ------------------- DURATION
I - From Adam to the Flood-------------------.------1,656 years
II - From the Flood to Abraham-----------------------427 years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-------------------------430 years-Ex. 12:40 and Gal.3:17
IV - From Exodus to king Saul ------------------------396 years
V - From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ---------------.508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus --------------.587 years

Thus, from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus ------.4,004 years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)--------.2,023 years
Total from Adam to our days ------------------------6,027 years

VII - The seventh and last period begins now, in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day. The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:v.15 combined with Luke 20:v.35-36, and Revelation 5:v.10, among others.

Matthew 25:6 & 10:
-> 6 at midnight (from the turn of the sixth to the seventh Day) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. 10 ... the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Daniel 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away(the sacrifice of JESUS already lasted around 730.000 days), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Jesus' sacrifice has already lasted around 730,000 days, and now will be taken away),and the abomination that maketh desolate will set up(in the midst of the last week of years),there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(END of this current world of Devil)

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Be careful or else get ready
 
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keras

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Please explain the intended meaning by Jesus in Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Protection, as many Prophesies tell us He will do for those who: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Isaiah 43:2. +
What is meant by "the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world?"
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun, send by the Lord on the terrible Day of His vengeance and wrath. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 30:26-30, 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18, +
Who are "those who dwell on the earth?" Please note how demeaning those words are: "those who dwell on earth." At the beginning of the Trib, only unbelievers "dwell on earth." The 144k (Rev 7:1-8) will be among them. They are protected servants of God who go to Heaven (Rev 14:3). The 2W are ultimately killed, then three days later they are resurrected and raptured to Heaven in Rev 11:12. The GM are all martyrs (new converts in the Trib), and they end up in Heaven (Rev 7:11).
Every person alive when this event happens.
All of your statements about anyone going to live in heaven are false and are not Biblical. Even the two Witnesses don't go to live in heaven, as they are GT martyrs and are resurrected to be the priests and co-rulers of Jesus in the Millennium.
In Rev 3:10, Jesus is aligning with 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 1:10, is Paul talking to all converts to Christianity, in expectation for the glorious Return of Jesus, the One who saves and protects His faithful people.
Thinking that Paul means a rapture removal here or anywhere in his writings, is a contradiction of the many scriptures that say we must stand firm in our faith, until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:19-20 totally refutes any ideas of going to live in heaven.
1 Th 4:16-17 is when Jesus comes to TAKE US UP straight to Heaven. That is in 100% alignment with John 14:3: Jesus comes back, and he TAKES US UP straight to Heaven.
When Jesus comes. it will be His glorious Return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
He wipes out His enemies, chains up Satan and rules the world from Jerusalem for the next thousand years.
Your fanciful dream is false and will never happen.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Please explain the intended meaning by Jesus in Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

What is meant by "keep you from?"

What is meant by "the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world?"

Who are "those who dwell on the earth?" Please note how demeaning those words are: "those who dwell on earth." At the beginning of the Trib, only unbelievers "dwell on earth." The 144k (Rev 7:1-8) will be among them. They are protected servants of God who go to Heaven (Rev 14:3). The 2W are ultimately killed, then three days later they are resurrected and raptured to Heaven in Rev 11:12. The GM are all martyrs (new converts in the Trib), and they end up in Heaven (Rev 7:11).

In Rev 3:10, Jesus is aligning with 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

These 3 verses describe the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
Explain to me why you believe we Christians go to live in heaven, while King Jesus is in Jerusalem?

I draw your attention to Revelation 5:9-10, which plainly says the faithful Christians will reign with Him on earth.

Re: Revelation 3:10, your use of that Prophecy to support a rapture to heaven, is very tenuous and in reality does not do that at all.
That verse reiterates Luke 21:35, which states: that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over....
Then Luke 21:36 tells us to pray for the strength to escape all that is coming...... 'escape', as in avoid or be protected from. NOT removal.

Clearly? Rev 3:10 clearly does not say there will be a rapture removal.
Many scriptures say we must all be tested and tried, 1 Peter 4:12, and only those who prove their faith will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

You are also confused and in error about the Great Tribulation, which will be for 3 1/2 years.
Luke 21:35 (ESV): For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

You don't see the intentionally demeaning wording: "who dwell on the face of the whole earth." Is that flattering to you? Does that sound loving from God? I hope you see that those words are not flattering and not loving because they are only about unbelievers. Until you get that right, you will not understand the other verses. The reason you won't get that right is you can account for where God's people are at that time. They are already raptured to Heaven.

Let's address Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. ----- The hour of trial is the 7-year Trib. Jesus said in that verse, "I will also keep you from the hour of trial." That means we WILL BE pre-Trib raptured into Heaven. We are tested and tried in our lives right now. Satan is at work 24/7. We are tested and tried to pass so God knows we're ready for bigger responsibilities. Peter was talking about everyday life wherein trials and tribulation are regular occurrences.
 
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JulieB67

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Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Keep-Greek word 5083-tereo-to guard (from loss or injury) prop. by keeping the eye upon.

It does not mean removal from the earth.
We are tested and tried in our lives right now. Satan is at work 24/7.
How we are tested in our lifetimes is nothing compared to what will happen at that time. If it should happen to someone in their lifetime, Satan and his angels will be here and the only way to overcome him is laid out in Revelation 12 which coincides with Paul's teaching about the gospel armour on. Paul was teaching that to Christians.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

That evil day doesn't mean every day, it states "the evil day". That day is when Satan and his arrive. Paul states we are to stand, having done all to stand. Which is a second witness to Christ's teachings about enduring until the end. When Christ comes back we are to still be standing, not fallen away to the fake. That is the true test. Both Christians and non believers. Some will fall away (foolish virgins, Christ telling some he never knew them, etc.) The falling away can't happen to unbelievers because they have nothing to fall away from. And it doesn't mean departure from the earth. Apostasy and the words "fall away" always mean defecting from the faith/truth.

In our patience we are to possess our souls -Christ's words.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
 
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keras

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Luke 21:35 (ESV): For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

You don't see the intentionally demeaning wording: "who dwell on the face of the whole earth." Is that flattering to you? Does that sound loving from God? I hope you see that those words are not flattering and not loving because they are only about unbelievers. Until you get that right, you will not understand the other verses. The reason you won't get that right is you can account for where God's people are at that time. They are already raptured to Heaven.

Let's address Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. ----- The hour of trial is the 7-year Trib. Jesus said in that verse, "I will also keep you from the hour of trial." That means we WILL BE pre-Trib raptured into Heaven. We are tested and tried in our lives right now. Satan is at work 24/7. We are tested and tried to pass so God knows we're ready for bigger responsibilities. Peter was talking about everyday life wherein trials and tribulation are regular occurrences.
You are a dreamer, willing to make scripture mean something it doesn't.
everyone the whole world over, and; to fall upon the whole world to test its inhabitants.....are clearly stated scripture. They do not say or even hint, that anyone will be exempt.

This forthcoming great test of our faith is not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, which are directed at those who will have taken the mark of the Beast.
The next prophesied event is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire, as 1 Peter 4:12 ....coming to test you....... NOT everyday problems and those who do pass this test by standing strong, trusting the Lord to save and protect them, will be part of the great multitude in the Holy Land, Revelation 7:9

You say you are ready for bigger responsibilities. Jesus gave us the task of spreading the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
We must do that until He Returns. Going to heaven, is a cop out, a rejection of responsibilities and is never said to happen.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Keep-Greek word 5083-tereo-to guard (from loss or injury) prop. by keeping the eye upon.

It does not mean removal from the earth.

How we are tested in our lifetimes is nothing compared to what will happen at that time. If it should happen to someone in their lifetime, Satan and his angels will be here and the only way to overcome him is laid out in Revelation 12 which coincides with Paul's teaching about the gospel armour on. Paul was teaching that to Christians.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

That evil day doesn't mean every day, it states "the evil day". That day is when Satan and his arrive. Paul states we are to stand, having done all to stand. Which is a second witness to Christ's teachings about enduring until the end. When Christ comes back we are to still be standing, not fallen away to the fake. That is the true test. Both Christians and non believers. Some will fall away (foolish virgins, Christ telling some he never knew them, etc.) The falling away can't happen to unbelievers because they have nothing to fall away from. And it doesn't mean departure from the earth. Apostasy and the words "fall away" always mean defecting from the faith/truth.

In our patience we are to possess our souls -Christ's words.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Julie, you're quoting John 17:15 out of context. Jesus was preparing to go to the cross. He was only praying for his disciples who were with Him.

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. ----- "will also keep you from" means we will avoid the 7-year Trib, entirely. Also, you're missing that it's condemning to be labeled an "inhabitant of the earth." That word means, in that context, a person who is "worldly" and "not of God." Romans 8:1 (NIV): Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

The rapture is easy to prove in Scripture. John 14:2-3 (ESV): In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. ----- Verse 2's context is that Jesus is preparing a place for each of to live, in Heaven. Verse 3 boils down to "I will come again and take you to myself, ..." Jesus just described the rapture. But, let's prove it further by the official rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ----- Verse 16's "For the Lord himself will descend ..." matches, in meaning and exact context, John 14:3's "I will come again ... ' Notice that Jesus is by Himself in verse 16. ln verse 3, He speaks only in the first person, meaning by Himself. Verse 17 says "will be caught up ... to meet the Lord ..." Verse 3 says "will take you to myself, ..." ----- "caught up" and "will take you" are synonymous in meaning and purpose: rapture.

You cannot find these sequences anywhere in the 2A (2nd Advent). First, Jesus is behind clouds the whole time in 1 Th 4:17. He is in full public view from the very of the 2A, per Matt 24:30. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 only sounds once to raise the dead in Christ. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 also sounds only once, but it sends out angels to gather the elect. There are no matches in 1 Th 4:16-17 with Matt 24:30-31. They are separate events. One is the rapture and the other is the 2A.

To know when the rapture will occur is based on when God's wrath will start in the Trib. 1 Th 1:10 speaks of "the coming wrath." The wrath in the Trib begins in Rev 6:8. That verse alone will kill 25% of the world's population. The utilized forms of wrath are famine, plague, and wild beasts. Those exact forms of wrath are proven to be such in:

Ezekiel 5: 15-17 (NIV): 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

God's wrath, as expressed in Ezekiel 5:15-17, will occur in the Trib on day 1. Therefore, 1 Th 1:10 applies exclusively to the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Lastly, 1 Th 5:3 proves all hell will break loose on day 1 of the Trib. Verse 3: While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
 
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keras

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you're quoting John 17:15 out of context. Jesus was preparing to go to the cross. He was only praying for his disciples who were with Him.
Context Jeffery?
Obviously you wouldn't know context if it fell on you.
John 17:20 It is not for them alone, [the disciples] that I pray, but for all those who through their teaching, have put their faith in Me.

So what do you do now? Jesus prayed that you would NOT be taken out of this world.
If you had the moral fortitude, you and all those poor saps who have fallen for the lie of a rapture removal to heaven, would immediately renounce that false belief and prepare spiritually and physically for the soon to come; great test of our faith. 1Thess 5:3 is a Prophecy of that sudden and shocking Day, a literal 24 hour day when the earth will shudder and shake, extreme heat, powerful winds and huge tsunamis.
Billions will die, but those who call upon His Name will be saved. By His protection.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Context Jeffery?
Obviously you wouldn't know context if it fell on you.
John 17:20 It is not for them alone, [the disciples] that I pray, but for all those who through their teaching, have put their faith in Me.

So what do you do now? Jesus prayed that you would NOT be taken out of this world.
If you had the moral fortitude, you and all those poor saps who have fallen for the lie of a rapture removal to heaven, would immediately renounce that false belief and prepare spiritually and physically for the soon to come; great test of our faith. 1Thess 5:3 is a Prophecy of that sudden and shocking Day, a literal 24 hour day when the earth will shudder and shake, extreme heat, powerful winds and huge tsunamis.
Billions will die, but those who call upon His Name will be saved. By His protection.
Why don't you stick to the verses quoted?
Context Jeffery?
Obviously you wouldn't know context if it fell on you.
John 17:20 It is not for them alone, [the disciples] that I pray, but for all those who through their teaching, have put their faith in Me.

So what do you do now? Jesus prayed that you would NOT be taken out of this world.
If you had the moral fortitude, you and all those poor saps who have fallen for the lie of a rapture removal to heaven, would immediately renounce that false belief and prepare spiritually and physically for the soon to come; great test of our faith. 1Thess 5:3 is a Prophecy of that sudden and shocking Day, a literal 24 hour day when the earth will shudder and shake, extreme heat, powerful winds and huge tsunamis.
Billions will die, but those who call upon His Name will be saved. By His protection.
Why don't you stick to the verse quoted? It's about John 17:15. You're dodging what the context is. John 17:15 (NIV): My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ----- Jesus was only praying for the disciples in that verse.
 
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JulieB67

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Julie, you're quoting John 17:15 out of context. Jesus was preparing to go to the cross. He was only praying for his disciples who were with Him.
You were quoting Rev 3:10 and I was giving you the another example that one can stay in the world and be guarded/kept an eye on.

Keep in the Greek does not mean removal from the earth.

As for the other verses, seen them all before, posted about them all before-they do not prove a pretrib rapture. Far from it. Christ is returning in those verses, not making some mid way pit stop. That's totally unbiblical.
I'll heed the warnings that both Christ and Paul give on this subject about deception and take their word that our gathering back together will not happen until certain events happen and believe that heaven must retain Christ until the restitution of all things. It's written and that's what I believe.
 
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