VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Ecclesiastes 9:5....the dead Know nothing......Job 14:12 Mortal man lies down.......never to be roused from his sleep.

Rev 20:4 is about the martyrs killed during the 42 month rule of the 'beast'. Metaphorically, they call to God to vindicate them.
Rev 20:5 is every other person who has ever lived. As per Revelation 20:12

Your wild and fanciful guesswork shows how deeply sunk into the mire of error and confusion you are; about what will happen in our future.

You're not quoting those verses. You're rewriting them. Shame you, alleged scholar.

There are no martyrs during the 42-moth rule of the beast. The martyrs from the second half are killed by Satan in Rev 12:17: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. ...

 

[keras]

John 14:3 is Jesus' brilliant summary of 1 Th 4:16-17.

Actually, Pauls Prophecy is a more detailed account of what Jesus said.
What neither say, is that anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus comes back to the earth and after the Millennium the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place for the faithful believers in Eternity, will be on the new earth.

You're not quoting those verses. You're rewriting them. Shame you, alleged scholar.

Empty accusations. Point out where I have changed any Scripture meaning.

The ;beast; is Satan. Revelation 13:4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Actually, Pauls Prophecy is a more detailed account of what Jesus said.
What neither say, is that anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus comes back to the earth and after the Millennium the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place for the faithful believers in Eternity, will be on the new earth.

Empty accusations. Point out where I have changed any Scripture meaning.

The ;beast; is Satan. Revelation 13:4

Rev 20:4 is about the martyrs killed during the 42 month rule of the 'beast'. Metaphorically, they call to God to vindicate them.
Rev 20:5 is every other person who has ever lived. As per Revelation 20:12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Actually, Pauls Prophecy is a more detailed account of what Jesus said.
What neither say, is that anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus comes back to the earth and after the Millennium the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place for the faithful believers in Eternity, will be on the new earth.

Empty accusations. Point out where I have changed any Scripture meaning.

The ;beast; is Satan. Revelation 13:4

Rev 20:4 is about the saints who are killed in the 2nd half of the Trib for their testimony of Jesus. The saints are believers who are new converts in the Trib. They are the fellow servants of the saints in Rev 6:9-11, who are also killed for their testimony of Jesus (Rev 6:9), in the early seals.

Rev 20:5 is about the hardened unbelievers in the Trib who die in sin, in the Trib. It is they and all dead unbelievers from all time who face the GWTJ. Until you get those facts right you will always be rewording Rev 20:4-5.

You disbelieve that all current believers (alive and dead) are raptured pre-Trib. You therefore disbelieve Jesus in Rev 3:10. You see? You get Rev 3:10 wrong, so you deny the pre-Trib rapture. In turn, you come up with false statements about Rev 20:4-5 (especially verse 5). I believe what Jesus said in Rev 3:10, and that perfectly aligns with the truth of the pre-Trib rapture and that all saints in the Trib are new converts in the Trib.

The only protected servants in the Trib are the 144k in Rev 7:1-8, and the 2W in Rev 11:3.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

'it' being a rapture to heaven, is not just unlikely, but impossible.
The Bible never states such a thing and Jesus plainly refutes it. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

You being 70, should live for at least another 10 years, having had your plumbing fixed. I am 82 and I confidently expect to see it all.
From the next event; the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will commence all the end times Prophesies, to the Glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years.

It will be the Middle East region which will get the Lord to act. The situation there is fast becoming critical and as Prophesied; Iran will attempt to nuke Israel. That will be their downfall and the Lord will destroy all of His enemies there. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 49:35-37
Then, we Christian peoples will travel there and occupy all of the Holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

So here's the thing: You either believe what the Prophetic Word tells us or follow the crowd in their fables and delusions.

Nothing I disagree with in that post. Regarding the rapture, I have an opinion on it, but it's kinda like I have an opinion on the reliability of Fords. It's not something I focus on and I know I could be wrong. Frankly, I see it mostly as pointless speculation, relative to the other points you bring up. And yeah, I could live longer. My dad died at 90, and two weeks before that he was in the woods splitting wood.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

So here's the thing: You either believe what the Prophetic Word tells us or follow the crowd in their fables and delusions.

Regarding that sentence, I firmly agree with the sentence, but where I try to be careful is using it to predict precise timing of the "beginning" of the events. Yes, many of them have precise relative timing, but it's amazing how opinions can vary on what constitutes the "foundational" events, timing-wise. I do believe that a solid knowledge of what the bible says about it, coupled with an open mind, can ensure that a person will be ready to "know it when they see it" regarding the events. However, I'm reminded that a lot of really well educated Israelites thought they knew what they were looking for in the coming messiah, yet they had him killed. I take a lesson from that. I'm far from perfect.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're not quoting those verses. You're rewriting them. Shame you, alleged scholar.

There are no martyrs during the 42-moth rule of the beast. The martyrs from the second half are killed by Satan in Rev 12:17: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. ...

Actually, Pauls Prophecy is a more detailed account of what Jesus said.
What neither say, is that anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus comes back to the earth and after the Millennium the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place for the faithful believers in Eternity, will be on the new earth.

Empty accusations. Point out where I have changed any Scripture meaning.

The ;beast; is Satan. Revelation 13:4

There's no proof of martyrs during the 42-month rule of the beast.

The martyrs from the second half are killed by Satan in Rev 12:17: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. ...

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There's no proof of martyrs during the 42-month rule of the beast.

The martyrs from the second half are killed by Satan in Rev 12:17: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. ...

Rev 13:4 does not support your claim. Only Satan indwells beasts. No beast indwells Satan.

 

[Oseas]

Matt 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

You predictions are not welcomed here.

************ THE LAST DECADE - 2020-2030 - COUNTDOWN ************

february 13-2024 is the 1138th day of the LAST DECADE of the Devil's world.

the begining of the LAST week of years - Daniel 9:27 - is within of this current last decade.

but first will be ELECTED the LAST Pope - THE NEXT -

Be careful and get ready -> for they that be ready will go in with JESUS to the celebration of the marriage: and the door will be shut-Matthew 25:10. There will not be any chance more, the perdition is Eternal,
be focused for the LAST week of years of the Devil's world, and LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18.

For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2Co.5:10.

My Lord JESUS left very clear, remember: the Father Judgeth no man, but hath committed all Judgment unto the Son. And hath given Him authority to execute Judgment also, because He is the Son of man. John 5:22&27.

Think about this: My Lord JESUS warned: John 12:47-50:
47 If any man hear my words, and believe not, I Judge him not: for I came not to Judge the world, but to Save the World.

48 He that...receiveth not my words, hath one that Judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. (that is, The Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and lats millennium. This Day/Millennium just arrived)
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

That said, remember: Job 34:21-23:
21 GOD's eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

22There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves

23For He will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into Judgment with GOD.

Get ready

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

************ THE LAST DECADE - 2020-2030 - COUNTDOWN ************

february 13-2024 is the 1138th day of the LAST DECADE of the Devil's world.

the begining of the LAST week of years - Daniel 9:27 - is within of this current last decade.

but first will be ELECTED the LAST Pope - THE NEXT -

Be careful and get ready -> for they that be ready will go in with JESUS to the celebration of the marriage: and the door will be shut-Matthew 25:10. There will not be any chance more, the perdition is Eternal,
be focused for the LAST week of years of the Devil's world, and LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18.

For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2Co.5:10.

My Lord JESUS left very clear, remember: the Father Judgeth no man, but hath committed all Judgment unto the Son. And hath given Him authority to execute Judgment also, because He is the Son of man. John 5:22&27.

Think about this: My Lord JESUS warned: John 12:47-50:
47 If any man hear my words, and believe not, I Judge him not: for I came not to Judge the world, but to Save the World.

48 He that...receiveth not my words, hath one that Judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. (that is, The Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and lats millennium. This Day/Millennium just arrived)
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

That said, remember: Job 34:21-23:
21 GOD's eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

22There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves

23For He will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into Judgment with GOD.

Get ready

Matt 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

So, you know more than Jesus?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

'it' being a rapture to heaven, is not just unlikely, but impossible.
The Bible never states such a thing and Jesus plainly refutes it. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

You being 70, should live for at least another 10 years, having had your plumbing fixed. I am 82 and I confidently expect to see it all.
From the next event; the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will commence all the end times Prophesies, to the Glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years.

It will be the Middle East region which will get the Lord to act. The situation there is fast becoming critical and as Prophesied; Iran will attempt to nuke Israel. That will be their downfall and the Lord will destroy all of His enemies there. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 49:35-37
Then, we Christian peoples will travel there and occupy all of the Holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

So here's the thing: You either believe what the Prophetic Word tells us or follow the crowd in their fables and delusions.

To understand John 3:13 is to recognize we can't go to Heaven on our own power. John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me ... ----- Jesus said "I will come back and TAKE YOU to be with me .,," ----- For anyone to get to Heaven, they are TAKEN UP.

So, the rapture is about us being TAKEN UP to Heaven. There is nothing impossible about Jesus' power to TAKE US UP to Heaven.

 

[keras]

So, the rapture is about us being TAKEN UP to Heaven.

Nowhere does the Bible say that heaven is our destination.
Paul does say that is his desire, but he never says he will go to live there. The Church is never said to go to heaven, many verses say how we must endure until the end.

I believe what Jesus said in Rev 3:10, and that perfectly aligns with the truth of the pre-Trib rapture and that all saints in the Trib are new converts in the Trib.

Jesus Promised protection to His faithful people, not removal to heaven.
Half of the Christians will be taken to a safe place on earth; Revelation 12:14

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Nowhere does the Bible say that heaven is our destination.
Paul does say that is his desire, but he never says he will go to live there. The Church is never said to go to heaven, many verses say how we must endure until the end.

Jesus Promised protection to His faithful people, not removal to heaven.
Half of the Christians will be taken to a safe place on earth; Revelation 12:14

Rev 12:14 is about Satan's attack on Israel, after he's thrown out of Heaven. Israel is the focus, not the whole earth.

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

"If I go" means Jesus will go to Heaven. We know He ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9). More from John 14:3: "I will come back and TAKE YOU to be with me that you also may be where I am." That means Jesus will come back and TAKE US to Heaven.

John 14:3 is a summary of 1 Th 4:16-17 (NIV): 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, ... 17 ... we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

The rapture is straight to Heaven.

Acts 1:9 is about the next time Jesus comes back. Right? Of course it is! Acts 1:9 (NIV): After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. ----- verse 11: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus ascended only in view of believers (the 12 Apostles) toward Heaven, and a cloud hid him. To come back in the same way: Jesus will descend from Heaven only in view of believers to where a cloud will hide Him. 1 Th 4:16 is about His descent. It never says he can be seen. Verse 17: ... we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ... ----- verse 17 mentions clouds because those are the clouds that will hide Jesus from the wicked world below.

 

[keras]

"If I go" means Jesus will go to Heaven. We know He ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9). More from John 14:3: "I will come back and TAKE YOU to be with me that you also may be where I am." That means Jesus will come back and TAKE US to Heaven.

Purely an assumption. One that wrongly adds the word 'heaven' to that scripture.
The angels who Jesus will send out at His Return, Matthew 24:31, will gather His faithful people to where He is going to: Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4

1 Th 4:16 is about His descent. It never says he can be seen.

That every eye will see the glorious Return of Jesus, is plainly told to us in Revelation 1:7

You continue to make wild and rather desperate assertions, which are easily refuted.
Simply put: the rapture to heaven belief is a fable and people who grip onto it are deluded. It will be a difficult time for them, as dramatic things happen and they won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Purely an assumption. One that wrongly adds the word 'heaven' to that scripture.
The angels who Jesus will send out at His Return, Matthew 24:31, will gather His faithful people to where He is going to: Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4

That every eye will see the glorious Return of Jesus, is plainly told to us in Revelation 1:7

You continue to make wild and rather desperate assertions, which are easily refuted.
Simply put: the rapture to heaven belief is a fable and people who grip onto it are deluded. It will be a difficult time for them, as dramatic things happen and they won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

You are adding verses to different events. That means you don't understand their contexts. The ascension was only seen by believers. Therefore, Jesus' next descension will only be seen by believers. Jesus was hidden by clouds in the ascension. Therefore, clouds will hide Jesus from UNBELIVERS in His next descension. That means His next descent is only for the pre-Trib rapture. <Staff Edit>

 

[keras]

You are adding verses to different events.

Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4 and Revelation 1:7 all describe the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
It is the height of foolishness and a contradiction of Bible Prophecy to believe anyone goes to heaven then, or at any other time.

You stand condemned of judging a fellow Christian and of adding false theories to the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Oseas]

Matt 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

So, you know more than Jesus?

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?

Be careful and get ready -> for they that be ready will go in with JESUS to the celebration of the marriage: and the door will be shut-Matthew 25:10. There will not be any chance more, the perdition is Eternal,
be focused for the LAST week of years of the Devil's world, and LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18.

For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2Co.5:10.

My Lord JESUS left very clear, remember: the Father Judgeth no man, but hath committed all Judgment unto the Son. And hath given Him authority to execute Judgment also, because He is the Son of man. John 5:22&27.

Think about this: My Lord JESUS warned: John 12:47-50:
47 If any man hear my words, and believe not, I Judge him not: for I came not to Judge the world, but to Save the World.

48 He that...receiveth not my words, hath one that Judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. (that is, The Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and lats millennium. This Day/Millennium just arrived)
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

That said, remember: Job 34:21-23:
21 GOD's eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.

22There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves

23For He will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into Judgment with GOD.

Get ready, for they that be ready will go in with JESUS to the celebration of the marriage: and the door will be shut-Matthew 25:10. There will not be any chance more, the perdition is Eternal.

Daniel 12:7 and 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4 and Revelation 1:7 all describe the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
It is the height of foolishness and a contradiction of Bible Prophecy to believe anyone goes to heaven then, or at any other time.

You stand condemned of judging a fellow Christian and of adding false theories to the Holy Scriptures.

1 Th 4:16's trumpet has nothing to do with Matt 24:31. 1 Th 4:16's trumpet has the SOLE purpose is to raise the dead in Christ, and only as part of the pre-Trib rapture. Matt 24:31's trumpet only occurs at the 2A. Its sole purpose is to send out angels to gather the elect. Now, are the elect dead? Of course not. But, that's what you're claiming by saying the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 is the same trumpet in Matt 24:31. Please dispel your false theory in the Holy Scriptures regarding 1 Th 4:16.

Now, since those two trumpets have NOTHING to do with each other, then let's examine 1 Th 4:16-17's very close relationship with John 14:3.

1 Th 4:16 is about Jesus coming back. John 14:3 (NIV) "... I will come back ..."

1 Th 4:17 is about all believers of record being taken up into clouds ... and we will forever be with Him.

John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ----- That proves 1 Th 4:16-17 will occur pre-Trib, in Jesus' own words.

 

[A_JAY]

[Response to Post 1] Probably not. Very weak support for it in Scripture. I don't put my faith in a doctrine created by a man.. I put my faith in Christ. Whatever happens will happen in God's time and God's way.

 

[Oseas]

Based in the Word of GOD, the source of the Truth, on GOD's six Days of creation and one Day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years (2Peter 3:8; ) so MANKIND, yeah, MANKIND, would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years). Actually, Genesis is a Plan of GOD to restitution or restoration of all things-Acts 3:v.17 to 26-, according they were in the garden of Eden.

That said, in accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days beginning in Genesis chapter 5, as follow:

Adam lived …..................................................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ………………………………………………….........105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ........................................................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived.........................................................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived .................................................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived .......................................................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ........................................................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah
Methuselah lived...........................................................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ..................................................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood..........................600 yrs.
Total of years from Adam to the Flood =.........1,656 years.


SIX PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ----------------- DURATION

I - From Adam to the Flood-------------------.------1,656 years
II - From the Flood to Abraham-----------------------427 years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-------------------------430 years-Ex. 12:40 and Gal.3:17
IV - From Exodus to king Saul ------------------------396 years
V - From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ---------------.508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus --------------.587 years

Thus, from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus ------.4,004 years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)--------.2,023 years

Total from Adam to our days ------------------------6,027 years

VII - The seventh and last period begins now, in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day. The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:v.15 combined with Luke 20:v.35-36, and Revelation 5:v.10, among others.

Matthew 25:6 & 10: -> 6 at midnight (from the turn of the sixth to the seventh Day) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. 10 ... the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Daniel 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away(the sacrifice of JESUS already lasted around 730.000 days), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Jesus' sacrifice has already lasted around 730,000 days, and now will be taken away),and the abomination that maketh desolate will set up(in the midst of the last week of years),there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(END of this current world of Devil)

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Be careful or else get ready

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