VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

What verses say "the dead know nothing" and that they "cannot do anything?"

Ecclesiastes 9:5....the dead Know nothing......Job 14:12 Mortal man lies down.......never to be roused from his sleep.

Rev 20:4 is about dead believers (which is why they are fully aware and able to speak as souls). Rev 20:5 is about dead unbelievers who have no say forever, for dying in sin.

Rev 20:4 is about the martyrs killed during the 42 month rule of the 'beast'. Metaphorically, they call to God to vindicate them.
Rev 20:5 is every other person who has ever lived. As per Revelation 20:12

Your wild and fanciful guesswork shows how deeply sunk into the mire of error and confusion you are; about what will happen in our future.

 

[honey badger]

That does not apply to John 14:3.

it most certainly does ...

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Ecclesiastes 9:5....the dead Know nothing......Job 14:12 Mortal man lies down.......never to be roused from his sleep.

Rev 20:4 is about the martyrs killed during the 42 month rule of the 'beast'. Metaphorically, they call to God to vindicate them.
Rev 20:5 is every other person who has ever lived. As per Revelation 20:12

Your wild and fanciful guesswork shows how deeply sunk into the mire of error and confusion you are; about what will happen in our future.

Keras, this is what kills me about you, an alleged Bible scholar: You take minimal wording from a verse and then INVENT meanings from it that have nothing to do with the context in which you found them. You input your desired meaning, and then claim that's what it means instead of going by what the context dictates. That is not a scholarly practice, yet you do this over and over. You lose more credibility every time you do it.

Let's look at the whole verse for its context: Eccl 9:5 (NKJV): For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

"But the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward." That is about dead unbelievers. Their next stop is the GWTJ.

This is what a martyr is: Rev 20:4 (NKJV): ... beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God.

Show me martyrs from the "42 months" in the second half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Ecclesiastes 9:5....the dead Know nothing......Job 14:12 Mortal man lies down.......never to be roused from his sleep.

Rev 20:4 is about the martyrs killed during the 42 month rule of the 'beast'. Metaphorically, they call to God to vindicate them.
Rev 20:5 is every other person who has ever lived. As per Revelation 20:12

Your wild and fanciful guesswork shows how deeply sunk into the mire of error and confusion you are; about what will happen in our future.

Rev 4:20 (NIV): I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

First sentence above: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. ----- Those are the thrones of the 24 elders before the throne of God in Heaven. Therefore, the setting for verse 4 is in Heaven.

Second sentence: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. ---- Those are more of the souls that are under the altar, at God's throne in Heaven, the "fellow servants" of the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9 & 11.

You are off the mark that there are martyrs from the 42 months of the second half in Rev 13:7 (NIV): ... given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. ----- "conquer" in this verse does not mean "kill." Therefore, your "martyrs" ain't martyrs. Therefore, they have NOTHING to do with Rev 20:4.

 

[keras]

Keras, this is what kills me about you, an alleged Bible scholar: You take minimal wording from a verse and then INVENT meanings from it that have nothing to do with the context in which you found them. You input your desired meaning, and then claim that's what it means instead of going by what the context dictates. That is not a scholarly practice, yet you do this over and over. You lose more credibility every time you do it.

The Bible says what it means and means what it says.
Your efforts to make scripture mean something else has lost all your credibility.

"conquer" in this verse does not mean "kill." Therefore, your "martyrs" ain't martyrs. Therefore, they have NOTHING to do with Rev 20:4.

Rev 20:4 is absolutely clear: those martyrs are killed during the reign of the 'beast. The 3 1/2 year, 42 months; 1260 days period of his conquest of God's people. Daniel 11:33-35, Zephaniah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17, all describe this time.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Bible says what it means and means what it says.
Your efforts to make scripture mean something else has lost all your credibility.

Rev 20:4 is absolutely clear: those martyrs are killed during the reign of the 'beast. The 3 1/2 year, 42 months; 1260 days period of his conquest of God's people. Daniel 11:33-35, Zephaniah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17, all describe this time.

The 42 months do not align with anything in Rev 20:4.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Bible says what it means and means what it says.
Your efforts to make scripture mean something else has lost all your credibility.

Rev 20:4 is absolutely clear: those martyrs are killed during the reign of the 'beast. The 3 1/2 year, 42 months; 1260 days period of his conquest of God's people. Daniel 11:33-35, Zephaniah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17, all describe this time.

Rev 20:4 does not align in any way with with the 42 months.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 20:4 does not align in any way with with the 42 months.

The Bible says this: The rapture occurs before the Trib: Rev 3:10, and John 14:3 is a summary of the official rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Bible says this: The rapture occurs before the Trib: Rev 3:10, and John 14:3 is a summary of the official rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17.

The context of Rev 20:4 is Heaven, just like Rev 6:9. The many scriptural match-ups between Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 absolutely make those two groups the GM. All of the GM martyrs end up under the altar. Where do the the "conquered" in the 42 months end up?

 

[keras]

Truths of the Final Age:

2 Timothy 3:1-17 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful, arrogant and abusive. Disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will be uncontrolled in their violence, hating all goodness, perfidious, foolhardy and self important. They will love their pleasures more than their God. While preserving the outward form of religion, actually, they deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Persecution will indeed come to everyone who wants to lead a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus, while evil doers and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But for your part, stand by the truths you have learned and are assured of, because you are familiar with the Holy scriptures which have the power to make you wise and lead you into salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth, refuting error and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be capable and equipped for good works of every kind.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

For the time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will follow his own ideas and will gather crowds to hear whatever they fancy. They will stop their ears to the truth and turn aside to myths.

But, you must keep your head whatever happens; put up with hardship, work to spread the gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling.

1 Timothy 1:3-11 I asked you, Timothy, to instruct certain people to refrain from teaching erroneous doctrines and devoting themselves to interminable myths and fruitless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculations that do nothing to further God’s plan for humans, that works through faith in Him. The goal of this Command is love, which comes from a pure heart, a good conscience and a genuine faith. Through a lack of these attributes, some have gone astray into a plethora of theories and false notions. They set out to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or the true meaning of the Word.

We all know the Law is a good thing, if it is used properly, it’s there not just for the righteous, but is necessary for the lawless and sinful, the godless and worldly, the murderers and fornicators, perverts, liars, perjurers, in fact all whose behaviour flouts the glorious Gospel of God.



The end of this era, will be a time of turmoil, Paul may be referring to the Tribulation period, but we have for the last 100 years experienced many wars and disasters. Matt. 24:6-8

Persecution will come to everyone who follows Jesus, Hebrews 12:8 This totally refutes any ‘pre-trib/wrath rapture to heaven’. 1 Peter 4:12 However, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

While preserving the outward form of religion, they deny its power. Many, so called Christian Churches have deviated so far from the true Gospel, they are no longer a Church of God. Isaiah 58, Jude 1-25, Revelation 3:14-22

The time has come when people refuse sound teaching, they believe false theories, ignore, allegorise or place Bible prophecy into past history, so have no proper understanding of what will happen soon. Isaiah:29:13-14, Isaiah 30:8-11

False teachers are more prevalent than ever, promoting their erroneous doctrines. Ministries, TV shows, books, etc, on the end times are a big business. Their judgement comes, false teachers will all meet their end on the Day of wrath. Jer.14:13-16, Isaiah 56:9-12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Bible says what it means and means what it says.
Your efforts to make scripture mean something eThe rapture will occur before the Trib, per Rev 3:10. John 14:3 is a summary of 1 Th 4:16-17, the official rapture verses. lse has lost all your credibility.

Rev 20:4 is absolutely clear: those martyrs are killed during the reign of the 'beast. The 3 1/2 year, 42 months; 1260 days period of his conquest of God's people. Daniel 11:33-35, Zephaniah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17, all describe this time.

The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

Jesus (the Word of God) says the rapture will occur before the Trib, per Rev 3:10. John 14:3 is Jesus' summary of 1 Th 4:16-17, the official rapture verses.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I like your citation of Revelation 12:17. But, that is Satan's rampage after being kicked out of Heaven. That is not the beast.

Your beast citations only "conquer" (Rev 13:5 & 7). That doesn't mean "kill." Rev 13:7 (NIV): It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

The Bible says what it means and means what it says. It says "conquer" and is doesn't say "kill."

The Bible says what it means and means what it says. Rev 20:4 has souls under the altar. Where else would those souls be? Rev 6:9 has souls under the altar, and they're told to wait for their "fellow servants" to be killed like they were. The next souls to be found under the altar are in Rev 20:4. Those are the fellow servants of the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9. Those are the two groups of martyrs that combine to make the GM. Does the Bible say what it means and means what it says?

Rev 12:17 could have relevance to the souls under that altar in Rev 20:4. Again, that is Satan's rampage after being kicked out of Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Truths of the Final Age:

2 Timothy 3:1-17 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful, arrogant and abusive. Disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will be uncontrolled in their violence, hating all goodness, perfidious, foolhardy and self important. They will love their pleasures more than their God. While preserving the outward form of religion, actually, they deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Persecution will indeed come to everyone who wants to lead a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus, while evil doers and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But for your part, stand by the truths you have learned and are assured of, because you are familiar with the Holy scriptures which have the power to make you wise and lead you into salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth, refuting error and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be capable and equipped for good works of every kind.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

For the time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will follow his own ideas and will gather crowds to hear whatever they fancy. They will stop their ears to the truth and turn aside to myths.

But, you must keep your head whatever happens; put up with hardship, work to spread the gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling.

1 Timothy 1:3-11 I asked you, Timothy, to instruct certain people to refrain from teaching erroneous doctrines and devoting themselves to interminable myths and fruitless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculations that do nothing to further God’s plan for humans, that works through faith in Him. The goal of this Command is love, which comes from a pure heart, a good conscience and a genuine faith. Through a lack of these attributes, some have gone astray into a plethora of theories and false notions. They set out to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or the true meaning of the Word.

We all know the Law is a good thing, if it is used properly, it’s there not just for the righteous, but is necessary for the lawless and sinful, the godless and worldly, the murderers and fornicators, perverts, liars, perjurers, in fact all whose behaviour flouts the glorious Gospel of God.



The end of this era, will be a time of turmoil, Paul may be referring to the Tribulation period, but we have for the last 100 years experienced many wars and disasters. Matt. 24:6-8

Persecution will come to everyone who follows Jesus, Hebrews 12:8 This totally refutes any ‘pre-trib/wrath rapture to heaven’. 1 Peter 4:12 However, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

While preserving the outward form of religion, they deny its power. Many, so called Christian Churches have deviated so far from the true Gospel, they are no longer a Church of God. Isaiah 58, Jude 1-25, Revelation 3:14-22

The time has come when people refuse sound teaching, they believe false theories, ignore, allegorise or place Bible prophecy into past history, so have no proper understanding of what will happen soon. Isaiah:29:13-14, Isaiah 30:8-11

False teachers are more prevalent than ever, promoting their erroneous doctrines. Ministries, TV shows, books, etc, on the end times are a big business. Their judgement comes, false teachers will all meet their end on the Day of wrath. Jer.14:13-16, Isaiah 56:9-12

Persecution has been occurring for thousands of years. We are assigned to endure patiently, while taking the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. But, there's a point we will be rewarded for our obedience and patience, and we will be raptured pre-Trib. Jesus says so in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ----- The "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib beginning at Rev 6:1-2.

1 Th 5:3 (ESV): While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ----- That verse annihilates all claims that the first half of the Trib will be peaceful. God's wrath starts on day 1 of the Trib. 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

John 14:3 is about 1 Th 4:16-17. But, those verses have no clear timing. Rev 3:10 takes care of the timing: it will be pre-Trib, just as Jesus said so in Rev 3:10. Jesus said so.

 

[Oseas]

What does the Word of GOD reveal? Luke 4:5-8:

5 And the Devil, taking JESUS up into an high mountain, shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the Devil said unto JESUS, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8 And Jesus answered and said unto he Devil, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and Him only shalt thou serve.

************THE LAST DECADE - 2020-2030 - COUNTDOWN************

february 12-2024 is the 1137th day of the LAST DECADE of the Devil's world.

the begining of the last week - daniel 9:27 - is within of this current last decade.

but first will be ELECTED the LAST Pope - THE NEXT -

Be careful and get ready
be focused for the last week of years of the Devil's world, and LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18.

The election of the last Pope - Will be his religious nickname Paulus VII?

The world press has just announced the death of Benedict XVI. The current Pope Francis is also on the brink of death. Then must be elected the last Pope, and he will be the husband No. 266 (excluding Peter Apostle) of the Great harlot, the Roman Catholic Church. By the way, would be his religious...

purebibleforum.com

What was the biblical significance of the construction and fall of the TWO TOWERS of the World Trade Center?
First, GOD was/is in control of history, nothing random happens. The United States was the single largest economy on the planet, followed by the European Union. Humanity had just entered a new millennium, from the sixth to the seventh(check it in...
purebibleforum.com

 

[Reasonably Sane]

When I first became a Christian I believed in pre-trib. But after a couple of years and researching the subject, I became "mid-trib/post-wrath". And after a lot more research I became "pan-trib". i.e. it will all pan out in the end. That is, I no longer discuss it much. My focus is my relationship with my Creator and my fellow man. What happens to the believers and non-believers for a very microscopic part of the history of man is not a high priority. If I focus on the other two issues, that will take care of itself. The Lord knows and I leave it to him.

 

[Douggg]

When I first became a Christian I believed in pre-trib. But after a couple of years and researching the subject, I became "mid-trib/post-wrath". And after a lot more research I became "pan-trib". i.e. it will all pan out in the end. That is, I no longer discuss it much. My focus is my relationship with my Creator and my fellow man. What happens to the believers and non-believers for a very microscopic part of the history of man is not a high priority. If I focus on the other two issues, that will take care of itself. The Lord knows and I leave it to him.

You might be interested in my view of the rapture timing. Anytime between right this very second and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

You might be interested in my view of the rapture timing. Anytime between right this very second and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

View attachment 342673

I lean toward after the 3 1/2 years but before the 3 1/2 years of the "wrath of God." It's sort of a Revelation 7 thing. But I'm not married to it. After all, nobody but God knows the exact day. I just want to be ready in order to know it when I see it.
And besides, I'm 70 and a year out from major open heart surgery. It's looking statistically more and more unlikely that I'll see it.

Then again, I believe that 2024 will be one for the history books, like 1939, and 2025 will be more like 1940-1945. i.e. bad times are a comin' fast.

 

[keras]

It's looking statistically more and more unlikely that I'll see it.

'it' being a rapture to heaven, is not just unlikely, but impossible.
The Bible never states such a thing and Jesus plainly refutes it. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

You being 70, should live for at least another 10 years, having had your plumbing fixed. I am 82 and I confidently expect to see it all.
From the next event; the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will commence all the end times Prophesies, to the Glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years.

I believe that 2024 will be one for the history books

It will be the Middle East region which will get the Lord to act. The situation there is fast becoming critical and as Prophesied; Iran will attempt to nuke Israel. That will be their downfall and the Lord will destroy all of His enemies there. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 49:35-37
Then, we Christian peoples will travel there and occupy all of the Holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

So here's the thing: You either believe what the Prophetic Word tells us or follow the crowd in their fables and delusions.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What does the Word of GOD reveal? Luke 4:5-8:

5 And the Devil, taking JESUS up into an high mountain, shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the Devil said unto JESUS, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8 And Jesus answered and said unto he Devil, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and Him only shalt thou serve.

************THE LAST DECADE - 2020-2030 - COUNTDOWN************

february 12-2024 is the 1137th day of the LAST DECADE of the Devil's world.

the begining of the last week - daniel 9:27 - is within of this current last decade.

but first will be ELECTED the LAST Pope - THE NEXT -

Be careful and get ready
be focused for the last week of years of the Devil's world, and LITERAL fulfillment of Revelation 11:15-18.

The election of the last Pope - Will be his religious nickname Paulus VII?

The world press has just announced the death of Benedict XVI. The current Pope Francis is also on the brink of death. Then must be elected the last Pope, and he will be the husband No. 266 (excluding Peter Apostle) of the Great harlot, the Roman Catholic Church. By the way, would be his religious...

purebibleforum.com

What was the biblical significance of the construction and fall of the TWO TOWERS of the World Trade Center?
First, GOD was/is in control of history, nothing random happens. The United States was the single largest economy on the planet, followed by the European Union. Humanity had just entered a new millennium, from the sixth to the seventh(check it in...
purebibleforum.com

Matt 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

You predictions are not welcomed here.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

'it' being a rapture to heaven, is not just unlikely, but impossible.
The Bible never states such a thing and Jesus plainly refutes it. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

You being 70, should live for at least another 10 years, having had your plumbing fixed. I am 82 and I confidently expect to see it all.
From the next event; the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will commence all the end times Prophesies, to the Glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years.

It will be the Middle East region which will get the Lord to act. The situation there is fast becoming critical and as Prophesied; Iran will attempt to nuke Israel. That will be their downfall and the Lord will destroy all of His enemies there. Psalms 7:12-16, Jeremiah 49:35-37
Then, we Christian peoples will travel there and occupy all of the Holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

So here's the thing: You either believe what the Prophetic Word tells us or follow the crowd in their fables and delusions.

Why don't you address the actual verses at play here? John 14:3 is Jesus' brilliant summary of 1 Th 4:16-17.

John 14:3 (NKJV): ... I will come again and receive you to Myself; ...

1 The 4:16: For the Lord Himself will descend ... 1 Th 4:17: ... we ... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

You can dance around those truths all you want, citing unrelated verse after unrelated verse. You will not change Jesus's words and meaning.