VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

You haven't read Luke 16:19-31. Please do so.

I read it. It is plain that Jesus was not describing actual people and things.
The only point He was making was that this life was our one chance to get right with our Maker. It's too late after death.

Re: John 14:1-3, the usual fallback of those sucked in by the 'rapture to heaven; theory.
Which shows up their complete lack of proofs for that fable, because heaven is not mentioned as the destination.
We are told when those who have proved their faith, will get to live in the new Jerusalem; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Antonio39]

Revelation 7:14 mentions those who have passed through the great ordeal....
Which must refer to the Sixth Seal event. Unless you want to shuffle Revelation...not advisable!

You are fairly alone in thinking the 7 Bowl is not part of the Great Trib.

Many Prophesies make it clear the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is for just one literal day. It will set the scene for all the Prophesied things from Rev 7 until Eternity.
The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen during the final 3 1/2 year period before Jesus Returns. They are the wrath of God.

You think when it says no one will ascend, but the son of man, is the narrator speaking about Jesus, or Jesus speaking?

 

[keras]

You think when it says no one will ascend, but the son of man, is the narrator speaking about Jesus, or Jesus speaking?

It is the Words of Jesus.
He plainly states that humans will never go to heaven, a truth confirmed by many other Prophesies. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7

Because the doctrine of the 'rapture to heaven', is so widespread and accepted, it is easy to follow the crowd, but God will honour those who really make the attempt to ascertain the Biblical truth of Gods plans for our future.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I read it. It is plain that Jesus was not describing actual people and things.
The only point He was making was that this life was our one chance to get right with our Maker. It's too late after death.

Re: John 14:1-3, the usual fallback of those sucked in by the 'rapture to heaven; theory.
Which shows up their complete lack of proofs for that fable, because heaven is not mentioned as the destination.
We are told when those who have proved their faith, will get to live in the new Jerusalem; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The rich man, Abraham and Lazarus are real people. You want to deny that to invalidate that Hades and Paradise are real. It won't work. I showed you other verses that cite Paradise or Hades.


John 14:2-3 (ESV): In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

No mention of Heaven is false. In John 14:2, what does "In my father's house" mean? That's Heaven and only Heaven.

The context of Heaven is uninterrupted into verse 3. Therefore, "I will come again" is the perfect rewording of 1 Th 4:16.

Verse 3 continues: .... and will "take you to myself." That is the perfect rewording of 1 Th 4:17.

Those are facts. You still won't admit the trumpet in 1 Th 4;16 has just one purpose: to raise the dead in Christ. It has NO relationship to Matt 24:31 which only gathers living people. Until you get the trumpet-related confusion cleared up, you will NOT understand 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:2-3.

 

[keras]

In my Father's house are many rooms

This refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the new earth after the Millennium. Rev 21:1-7
What else could Jesus have meant? Matthew 24:35

You want to deny that to invalidate that Hades and Paradise are real.

Most intelligent people view Paradise and Hades as a state of mind, places we get to according to our desires and actions.
Terrorists, for example think they are, or will be in Paradise, but actually they are in Hades. Godly people may be living in hellish situations, but they are metaphorically in Paradise.
While you continue in the false belief of consciousness after death, these concepts are foreign to you.

You still won't admit the trumpet in 1 Th 4;16 has just one purpose: to raise the dead in Christ

I don't admit falsehoods.
1 Thess 4:16, is clear: the Trumpet of God will announce the glorious Return of Jesus.
The dead in Christ, are the souls of the GT martyrs which Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven. Rev 20:4
The idea of any other dead people to be raised when Jesus Returns is false and directly contradicts Rev 20:5

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the new earth after the Millennium. Rev 21:1-7
What else could Jesus have meant? Matthew 24:35

Most intelligent people view Paradise and Hades as a state of mind, places we get to according to our desires and actions.
Terrorists, for example think they are, or will be in Paradise, but actually they are in Hades. Godly people may be living in hellish situations, but they are metaphorically in Paradise.
While you continue in the false belief of consciousness after death, these concepts are foreign to you.

I don't admit falsehoods.
1 Thess 4:16, is clear: the Trumpet of God will announce the glorious Return of Jesus.
The dead in Christ, are the souls of the GT martyrs which Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven. Rev 20:4
The idea of any other dead people to be raised when Jesus Returns is false and directly contradicts Rev 20:5

Keras, the pertinent context is in John 14:2-3. Jesus was talking about Heaven (in verse 2), and coming for His chosen people, by way of the rapture (in verse 3). You are attempting to invalidate the truth of those two verses with other verses that have no relationship to them.

The timing for the rapture is pre-Trib (God's wrath begins in the early seals; 1 Th 5:3 promises "sudden destruction" on day 1 of the Trib; and 1 Th 1:10 promises Jesus will rescue us from the coming wrath).

Those are the pertinent facts that pertain to the pre-Trib rapture. Your citation of Rev 21 pertains to what occurs after the GWTJ, about 1,007 years later. You are very off-target.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus was in heaven whilst he walked the earth ...

Where has Jesus said that?

 

[keras]

the pertinent context is in John 14:2-3. Jesus was talking about Heaven (in verse 2), and coming for His chosen people, by way of the rapture (in verse 3)

This idea is utter nonsense, as heaven is never mentioned and Jesus comes here at His glorious Return, NOT Hs people go there.
The pretentious and selfish idea of escaping to heaven is a Satanic lie and those who have fallen for it, will bitterly regret their mistake.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the new earth after the Millennium. Rev 21:1-7
What else could Jesus have meant? Matthew 24:35

Most intelligent people view Paradise and Hades as a state of mind, places we get to according to our desires and actions.
Terrorists, for example think they are, or will be in Paradise, but actually they are in Hades. Godly people may be living in hellish situations, but they are metaphorically in Paradise.
While you continue in the false belief of consciousness after death, these concepts are foreign to you.

I don't admit falsehoods.
1 Thess 4:16, is clear: the Trumpet of God will announce the glorious Return of Jesus.
The dead in Christ, are the souls of the GT martyrs which Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven. Rev 20:4
The idea of any other dead people to be raised when Jesus Returns is false and directly contradicts Rev 20:5

Heaven is the context in John 14:2. That context is inherited by verse 3, wherein, Jesus promises to rapture His chosen people, to Heaven, so we will forever be with our LORD.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This idea is utter nonsense, as heaven is never mentioned and Jesus comes here at His glorious Return, NOT Hs people go there.
The pretentious and selfish idea of escaping to heaven is a Satanic lie and those who have fallen for it, will bitterly regret their mistake.

Most people accept Paradise for what it's said to be in Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Most people accept Hades for what it's said to be in Luke 16:22-23 (NIV): ... The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Most people accept Paradise for what it's said to be in Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Most people accept Hades for what it's said to be in Luke 16:22-23 (NIV): ... The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Was Jesus lying?

Most people accept Paradise for what it's said to be in Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Most people accept Hades for what it's said to be in Luke 16:22-23 (NIV): ... The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

You can kick and scream all you want. In John 14:2, Jesus was talking about residing in Heaven. In the next verse, Jesus is promising to rapture us, straight to Heaven, so we may forever be with our LORD.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This refers to the new Jerusalem, to come to the new earth after the Millennium. Rev 21:1-7
What else could Jesus have meant? Matthew 24:35

Most intelligent people view Paradise and Hades as a state of mind, places we get to according to our desires and actions.
Terrorists, for example think they are, or will be in Paradise, but actually they are in Hades. Godly people may be living in hellish situations, but they are metaphorically in Paradise.
While you continue in the false belief of consciousness after death, these concepts are foreign to you.

I don't admit falsehoods.
1 Thess 4:16, is clear: the Trumpet of God will announce the glorious Return of Jesus.
The dead in Christ, are the souls of the GT martyrs which Jesus will bring with Him, from heaven. Rev 20:4
The idea of any other dead people to be raised when Jesus Returns is false and directly contradicts Rev 20:5

Nope. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 raises the dead in Christ, only. I think you took the wrong bus to the wrong show.

 

[keras]

In John 14:2, Jesus was talking about residing in Heaven.

But he wasn't. He never mentioned heaven.
Jesus went to prepare the place for those people who will have proved their faith and trust in the Lord.
That place will come to the new earth, AFTER the Millennium. Rev 21:1

In the next verse, Jesus is promising to rapture us, straight to Heaven, so we may forever be with our LORD.

John 14:3 does not say that at all. Jesus says He will come again, that is: will Return to the earth and then His people will be with Him always.
On the existing earth for the Millennium, then in the new Jerusalem.

The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 raises the dead in Christ, only.

The shout, the voice of the Archangel, the trumpet of God; all refer to the glorious Return.
Fullstop, then: And the dead in Christ will arise first.
Note: It does not say ALL the dead in Christ.

Your beliefs are refuted by the plain narrative of scripture.
The bus you have gotten on, is hell bent to perdition. Satans lies are its motivation.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But he wasn't. He never mentioned heaven.
Jesus went to prepare the place for those people who will have proved their faith and trust in the Lord.
That place will come to the new earth, AFTER the Millennium. Rev 21:1

John 14:3 does not say that at all. Jesus says He will come again, that is: will Return to the earth and then His people will be with Him always.
On the existing earth for the Millennium, then in the new Jerusalem.

The shout, the voice of the Archangel, the trumpet of God; all refer to the glorious Return.
Fullstop, then: And the dead in Christ will arise first.
Note: It does not say ALL the dead in Christ.

Your beliefs are refuted by the plain narrative of scripture.
The bus you have gotten on, is hell bent to perdition. Satans lies are its motivation.

Let's go over the plain narrative.

In John 14:3, it doesn't say Jesus returns to Earth. It says, "I will come again and will take you to myself." That is Jesus' brilliant summary of 1 Th 4:16-17. In verse 16, Jesus descends, but not to Earth. Verse 17 says we will pass through clouds and "meet the Lord in the air." Jesus never touches the ground. We and Jesus are behind clouds when we meet Him, out of view of the wicked world below.

Now, how do we get up to the clouds to meet Jesus? John 14:3 (ESV): "I will come again and will TAKE YOU TO MYSELF." "Take you" means we go TO Jesus by way of His supernatural power. He descends to behind clouds. We are raptured into those clouds where we will meet Jesus in the air.

There is no way to spin John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17 into the 2A. In 1 Th 4:16-17, Jesus is never "on clouds" as He is in Matt 24:30. Jesus descends by himself in 1 Th 4:16. In Matt 24:31, His angels are with Him. The trumpet in verse 16 only raises the dead in Christ. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 only sends angels to gather the elect.

John 14:3 (Geneva Bible): And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto
myself, that where I am, there may ye be also. ----- Jesus will descend from Heaven and then TAKE US TO HEAVEN.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Let's go over the plain narrative.

In John 14:3, it doesn't say Jesus returns to Earth. It says, "I will come again and will take you to myself." That is Jesus' brilliant summary of 1 Th 4:16-17. In verse 16, Jesus descends, but not to Earth. Verse 17 says we will pass through clouds and "meet the Lord in the air." Jesus never touches the ground. We and Jesus are behind clouds when we meet Him, out of view of the wicked world below.

Now, how do we get up to the clouds to meet Jesus? John 14:3 (ESV): "I will come again and will TAKE YOU TO MYSELF." "Take you" means we go TO Jesus by way of His supernatural power. He descends to behind clouds. We are raptured into those clouds where we will meet Jesus in the air.

There is no way to spin John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17 into the 2A. In 1 Th 4:16-17, Jesus is never "on clouds" as He is in Matt 24:30. Jesus descends by himself in 1 Th 4:16. In Matt 24:31, His angels are with Him. The trumpet in verse 16 only raises the dead in Christ. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 only sends angels to gather the elect.

John 14:3 (Geneva Bible): And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto
myself, that where I am, there may ye be also. ----- Jesus will descend from Heaven and then TAKE US TO HEAVEN.

Keras, I appreciate your optimistic reaction. I look forward to you being one who Jesus is personally preparing a place for, in Heaven.

God bless!

 

[honey badger]

Where has Jesus said that?

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”

That does not apply to John 14:3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This false idea directly contradicts what the Bible teaches. We are told that the dead know nothing, they cannot do anything and only after the Millennium will they stand before God in Judgment. Only the Christian martyrs are allowed to cry out at times.
Then; those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and its the Lake of Fire for the rest.

Luke 16:23, the story of Abraham and the rich man, is a homily, a warning for us to live righteously. It is not a real situation, certainly not what we can build a doctrine of 'paradise' on.
Jesu spoke correctly to the thief on the cross. He died and his next conscious moment will be as he stands before God, at the final Judgment.
With all the rest of the dead. Rev 20:5

What verses say "the dead know nothing" and that they "cannot do anything?"

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This false idea directly contradicts what the Bible teaches. We are told that the dead know nothing, they cannot do anything and only after the Millennium will they stand before God in Judgment. Only the Christian martyrs are allowed to cry out at times.
Then; those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and its the Lake of Fire for the rest.

Luke 16:23, the story of Abraham and the rich man, is a homily, a warning for us to live righteously. It is not a real situation, certainly not what we can build a doctrine of 'paradise' on.
Jesu spoke correctly to the thief on the cross. He died and his next conscious moment will be as he stands before God, at the final Judgment.
With all the rest of the dead. Rev 20:5

Luke 16:23 is a real story, as its meanings are meant to be learned and adhered to. For instance, pity the person who thinks it's beneath him or her to help the indigent.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Luke 16:23 is a real story, as its meanings are meant to be learned and adhered to. For instance, pity the person who thinks it's beneath him or her to help the indigent.

Rev 20:4 is about dead believers (which is why they are fully aware and able to speak as souls). Rev 20:5 is about dead unbelievers who have no say forever, for dying in sin.