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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

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Micmac

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Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven with his angels to take up His Church at His Parousia. He later comes with His resurrected and perfected immortal saints to fight the Battle of Armageddon on earth.

Those saints are "having been clothed [Greek Perfect participle] in fine linen." Rev. 19:14 Angels don't have a time when they are "having been clothed." But the saints will, as the NT tells us in different places, such as

Rev. 3:5 “He who overcomes shall be clothed [Greek Future indicative] in white garments..."
Revelation 15:6
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

(Matthew 25:31) "the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"

(Mark 8:38) "the son of man ... comes in the glory of his Father, with the holy angels."

In both of these cases the word translated holy is a plural of "hagios", which shows that "angels" is the missing word in this case. Nowhere does the scripture ever say that Jesus comes back with men, but rather everywhere it is stated to be angels:

(Matthew 13:39) "the reapers are the angels."
(Matthew 13:41) "in the end of this world ... The son of man shall send forth his angels,"
(Matthew 13:49) "at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,"
(Matthew 24:31) "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,"
(Mark 13:27) "And then shall he send his angels,"
(Luke 9:26) "the son of man ... he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,"
(2 Thessalonians 1:7) "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,".

The fact that "saints" refers to angels, and not people in these verses, is made clear by the fact that Jesus comes back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5; 1 Thessalonians 3:13), and this could not possibly refer to resurrected people, for the following reasons:
 
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Micmac

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These scriptures give us plenty of evidence as to whom Jesus comes back with: "his angels," (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27), "the angels" (Matthew 13:49), "all the holy angels" (Matthew 25:31), "the holy angels." (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), and "his mighty angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7). Nowhere does the word of God say that he comes back with resurrected people, on the contrary, he comes back for them (1 Thessalonians 4:16) on the last day of this age, which will be his only coming . So we can conclude that "hagioi", which literally means "the holy (...)", always refers to "the holy angels" (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26) when used in the context of, "who comes back with Jesus when he returns?". So "all the saints" (Zechariah 14:5), and "all his saints." (1 Thessalonians 3:13) are the same as "all the holy angels" (Matthew 25:31), who come with Jesus on the last day of this pre-millennial age. (For more analysis See How to Study the Word of God, #4.224.)
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this
Irrelevant. Why waste our energy kicking it around. Just repent and believe the Good News.
 
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WilliamLhk

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This is a figment of a vivid imagination. It isn't scriptural.
Immortality is not given to anyone until the final Judgment, after the Millennium.
1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This comes at the Parousia. 1 Cor. 15:23
 
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WilliamLhk

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EtfSo we can conclude that "hagioi", which literally means "the holy (...)", always refers to "the holy angels" (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26) when used in the context of, "who comes back with Jesus when he returns?".
You cleverly left out in these verses, as others, that hagioi is used as a plural adjective to modify the plural noun anggelon. But hagioi when used alone is a noun used multiple dozens of times in the NT to mean (human) SAINTS. As it is so used in Jude 14. The same saints "having been clothed in fine linen" coming with Jesus in Rev. 19.

And just to spice it up, the "angel" who talks to John in Rev. 22 says of himself that he is a fellow slave and of his (John's) brethren the prophets.
 
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keras

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1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This comes at the Parousia. 1 Cor. 15:23
Proof that the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 50-56 is about the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium is: Revelation 21:4, when Death will be no more.
You are mistaken to think anyone becomes immortal before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

The Greek word 'hagioi' is mis-translated as human saints, when referring to who will accompany Jesus at His Return.
Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are clear: Jesus will Return with the armies of heaven. Thinking that other verses mean humans makes a Biblical contradiction.
Also there is no scripture which say humans will be in heaven before Jesus Returns. Or after; as when the Millennium is over, God will come to the new earth and dwell with mankind. Rev 21:1-7
 
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WilliamLhk

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Proof that the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 50-56 is about the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium is: Revelation 21:4, when Death will be no more.
You are mistaken to think anyone becomes immortal before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.
And you are flat out contradicting Paul:

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christ’s at His Parousia. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [This Parousia resurrection of the dead to immortality is the context of the rest of 1 Corinthians 15.]

The Great White Throne judgment is as "the end [of the Millennium]." The Parousia is at the beginning of the Millennium.

Regarding Rev. 21:4, yes, there will be no death after the Millennium. But that saying does not mean that some saints will not be immortal during the Millennium, while other people will still face death. You fail the logic test if you claim such a thing.
The Greek word 'hagioi' is mis-translated as human saints, when referring to who will accompany Jesus at His Return.
Show us one clear new testament example where hagioi, when used as a noun, is unequivocally meant to mean angels. (Rev. 19:14 is under dispute, so that must be set aside.) I can show you dozens of NT places where it unequivocally means human saints. Such as:
Rom 8:2 ...he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of...

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:26 ...certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Rom 15:31 ...I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Rom 16:2 ...in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her...

Rom 16:15 ...his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1 Cor 1:2 ...Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every...

1 Cor 6:1 ...to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world...

1 Cor 16:1 ...concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order...

1 Cor 16:15 ...they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,...

2 Cor 1:1 ...which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Cor 9:1 ...touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me...

2 Cor 13:13 All the saints salute you.

Eph 1:1 ...by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the...

Eph 1:15 ...in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this
Yes. The pre-Trib rapture is the only rapture in Scripture. The rapture is a gathering of all believers, by God, into Heaven.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

the bolded out part is where Jesus refers to himself ... the word even with a coma in front of it draws the distinction ...
If you examine the verse you quoted, and others like it, you will find that Jesus was saying we cannot go to Heaven -- on our own power. There are plenty of folks who have gone to Heaven. Jesus, at His crucifixion, sent the repentant thief to Paradise, which is where Jesus was going, too. All dead believers are in Paradise.
 
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keras

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There are plenty of folks who have gone to Heaven.
Job didn't, Moses didn't David didn't, Only Jesus ascended to heaven and He came from there.
It is pretentious, unjustified and unreasonable for us to ask God to take us to His Dwelling Place. He made us to inhabit the earth.
The pre-Trib rapture is the only rapture in Scripture. The rapture is a gathering of all believers, by God, into Heaven.
Have you, or any 'pre-trib rapture' believe, ever really considered the implications of this idea?
It means people will be made immortal before any kind of testing or Judgment. Is that logical? It surely isn't scriptural! 1 Peter 4:12, +
 
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keras

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But that saying does not mean that some saints will not be immortal during the Millennium, while other people will still face death. You fail the logic test if you claim such a thing.
The idea that mortals will live alongside immortals, is a gross failure of any logic test.
Show us one clear new testament example where hagioi, when used as a noun, is unequivocally meant to mean angels. (Rev. 19:14 is under dispute, so that must be set aside.)
No; Rev 19:14 cannot be set aside. It is confirmed by Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31.
ONLY angels will be with Jesus at His Return, He sends them out to gather those who faithful people who remain alive. Matthew 24:30-31

Before arguing that humans will Return with Jesus, proof is required of how those people got to be in heaven.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Job didn't, Moses didn't David didn't, Only Jesus ascended to heaven and He came from there.
It is pretentious, unjustified and unreasonable for us to ask God to take us to His Dwelling Place. He made us to inhabit the earth.

Have you, or any 'pre-trib rapture' believe, ever really considered the implications of this idea?
It means people will be made immortal before any kind of testing or Judgment. Is that logical? It surely isn't scriptural! 1 Peter 4:12, +
In 2 Cor 5, Paul lovingly addresses his fellow Christians. The only judgment we believers go through is the Judgment Seat of Christ, in 2 Cor 5:10 (NKJV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Paul, the rapture teacher, also says in 2 Tim 4:8 (NKJV): Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

The reason God's wrath is addressed is because it is pivotal as to the timing of the rapture. 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"Rescue" is defined in the KJV Dictionary as: to remove or withdraw from a state of exposure to evil;

Romans 8:1 (NIV): Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

We will not be subjected to God's wrath, which begins on day 1 of the Trib.

You need to distinguish between Heaven and Paradise. Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Paradise is where deceased Christians go upon death. Conversely, Hades is where deceased unbelievers go upon death: Luke 16:23 (NIV): In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Now, Jesus spoke of Heaven and Hell many times. Why did He say "Paradise?" Why wasn't "Hell" used in Luke 16:23? The souls of deceased Christians go to Paradise. Conversely, the souls of deceased unbelievers go to Hades.

1 Th 4:14 (NIV): For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

It is from Paradise, from which will be brought, deceased believers.
 
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RonJohnSilver

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The Church Against the Rapture
By Jack Kelley

When the Christian community gets united behind something we’re a force to be reckoned with. The 2004 Presidential election was a good example. Many of those 35 million extra votes George Bush got were from Evangelical Christians. Sadly, things like that don’t happen very often anymore. Even 9/11 didn’t produce any long term change toward unifying the Body. But try to imagine this if you can. Imagine how different this country would be today if all Christians held a Christian world view, were convinced that the Lord was coming back for us very soon, and were living their lives accordingly. Can you even begin to see the difference we’d be making? It would be amazing. America would be compared to the Israel of Solomon’s day.

To prevent the tremendous effect we would have for good, the enemy has implemented a divide and conquer strategy. He knows that as long as he can keep the Body of Christ fractured he can keep us weak. Over the years, he’s mounted a number of campaigns to implement this strategy. Gifts vs. no gifts, the inerrancy issue, and the proper method of interpretation come to mind. But one of his most successful efforts has been to take advantage of the fact that for His own reasons, God has chosen to keep the Rapture’s timing a secret.

The clues He’s given us point to our departure happening prior to the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week. But right from the beginning Satan influenced Church leaders to conclude that denying the pre-trib and pre-millennial view would keep us focused on the things of this world instead of always looking up, waiting for the Lord. So even though Paul very clearly taught a pre-trib rapture of the Church, and John revealed a 1,000 year Kingdom to follow it, alternate views have sprung up almost continuously since then.

Take Your Pick​


Amillennialism came along in the early 400’s to teach believers not to expect any literal Kingdom, ever. It told believers that the 2nd Coming took place when Jesus came into their hearts, that the Church Age is the Millennium and that end times prophecy is not meant to be taken literally. This removed a major obstacle to having Christianity recognized by Rome.

Postmillenialism taught that the 2nd Coming would take place after the 1,000 year millennium which is really a golden age of Christian prosperity and dominance in the world. The prosperity gospel and Dominion theology are offshoots of postmillennialism.

The Post Tribulation Rapture view denied the doctrine of imminence by placing the Rapture after the Tribulation. Look for the anti-Christ, it says, not the Christ. Mid-Trib (aka Pre-Wrath) is a compromise between the pre and post trib views that denies imminence as well. Replacement Theology was to deny that the re-birth of Israel is an end times sign. Preterism denies all future prophetic events. Kingdom Now, or Dominionism, contends that the Lord can’t come back until we’ve done our part by converting the world. As a result of Dominionism millions of believers have been looking all their lives for a great revival that’s never coming, instead of looking for the Lord, who is.

The combined effect of all this is that most believers have been lulled to sleep with no clue as to how close we are to the End of the Age. While prophecies that Christians have been anticipating for nearly 2,000 years are being fulfilled right before their eyes, they’re more concerned about the long term mortgages on their homes and the interest free financing on their cars. Having sufficient retirement income far outweighs stockpiling treasure in heaven on their list of priorities. Their endless quest for bigger and better toys distracts them from the boredom of lives that have been rendered meaningless, without purpose. False teaching about the End Times has left them ignorant of the closeness of the Lord’s return and complacent about their faith. It has stolen their joy, quenched their spirit, and made them no better off spiritually than the unbelievers who surround us. They sometimes get fired up on Sunday, but by mid-week you’d never know it happened.

Here’s what that means. According to recent surveys in the USA, less than 10% of born-again believers have a Christian world view. That means over 90% of us have been seduced into a pursuit of the same materialistic goals as our unbelieving neighbors. Over 40% have never given the first dime to the Lord’s work. Even more have never shared the Gospel with anyone. Some studies show that the abortion rate among Christians is the same as for unbelievers, as is the divorce rate, and two out of three of our children will stop going to church the minute they have a choice.

I lay most of the blame for this at the feet of so-called theologians who’ve let themselves be influenced by Satan while charged with the responsibility of teaching the Word of God. Remember, Paul’s words to the Corinthians:

“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.” (2 Cor. 11:13-15)

Knowingly or not, these people have bought into Satan’s lies and have taught those entrusted to them that God’s word isn’t true.

The Greatest Generation​


What the secular media calls America’s greatest generation, those who fought and won WW2, is also the generation that sat in the pews of the great denominational churches of the 40’s and 50’s. There they were taught that God didn’t create the Heavens and the Earth in 6 days and Moses didn’t write the Torah. Daniel didn’t write Daniel, Isaiah didn’t write Isaiah, Jesus didn’t feed 5,000 or walk on water, and on and on. To make God small enough to fit in their minds the denominational theologians made Him too small to meet our needs. Amillennialism became their eschatology of choice because with a God that small it was easy to believe that nothing was ever going to happen. He isn’t really going to return, they say, and even if he does it certainly won’t be now. Some were actually saying that he had died. Because of their teaching, millions of Christians are asleep at the switch during the most important and exciting time in the history of man.

It’s not because prophecy has ever failed, it’s because like the Saducees before them, the theologians stopped believing it and so the teachers stopped teaching it. Jesus addressed this in his letter to the Church at Sardis, a model of the mainline denominations. “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” (Rev. 3:3) The Saducees missed the chance to be on the Lord’s team at the time of the first coming because they stopped believing the prophecies. Liberal theologians and their students are missing the 2nd one for the same reason.

Now another great attack against End Times prophecy has come in the name of the Emerging Church. Leaders of this movement don’t teach the Bible much at all because their success is based on saying nothing that could offend the people in their pews. Consequently there’s no talk of being born again or getting ready for the Lord’s return. They talk of being followers of the Lord not just believers in Him, but in truth there’s very little discussion of what either means. Their pews and their bank accounts are full, and their members are kept busy with projects that often do a lot of Earthly good but aren’t designed to bring any one any closer to the Kingdom. The study of prophecy is viewed as non productive and a distraction from their goals, one of which is to strive for a 50/50 split in their membership between believers and non-believers. The reason for this is that the non-believers can help to form a consensus that will draw the believers away from the moral and spiritual absolutes of traditional Christianity. As with the revival seeking Charismatics there is a thread of dominionism running through the emerging Church’s doctrine. It helps keep them focused on the things of this world.

Which One Are You?​


So the liberals are amillennial and couldn’t tell a rapture from a rupture. Pentecostal, charismatic, and emerging congregations are often dominionists, although for different reasons. Catholics and some conservative protestants are post-trib. Almost all have been tainted by replacement theology, and hardly any study prophecy. That leaves the evangelicals and even among us there’s growing disagreement.

It’s popular to just smile and say of the protestant church, “On the essentials of salvation we all agree, but in the non-essentials there’s room for lots of different opinions.” Baloney. The Bible is not a document written to provide a debating society with lots of different positions. It’s the Word of God and it’s not subject to man’s opinion. Though we may not like it all, we don’t have the right to re-interpret it to suit our desires.

But while we sit around arguing about what it says, the world is falling apart and the time is getting short. The Lord’s coming back and 90% of the Church is distracted by the world and doesn’t have a clue it’s about to happen.

God said, “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please…what I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.” (Isaiah 46:10-11) It’s not that He’s stopped performing on this promise, it’s just that most of the Church has stopped believing it and no longer expects it.

Of the 5 crowns believers can win as rewards for the way they live, one will be given to those who long for His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:8) It has always fascinated me that it’s called the Crown of Righteousness. Most folks would think that one would go to those who led exemplary lives. Not so. Our righteousness is imputed to us by faith. Longing for His return is a sign of faith in His promise that He will. (John 14:1-3) I wonder how many of those they’ll be handing out.
 
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If you examine the verse you quoted, and others like it, you will find that Jesus was saying we cannot go to Heaven -- on our own power. There are plenty of folks who have gone to Heaven. Jesus, at His crucifixion, sent the repentant thief to Paradise, which is where Jesus was going, too. All dead believers are in Paradise.

Jesus was in heaven whilst he walked the earth ...
 
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keras

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It is from Paradise, from which will be brought, deceased believers.
This false idea directly contradicts what the Bible teaches. We are told that the dead know nothing, they cannot do anything and only after the Millennium will they stand before God in Judgment. Only the Christian martyrs are allowed to cry out at times.
Then; those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and its the Lake of Fire for the rest.

Luke 16:23, the story of Abraham and the rich man, is a homily, a warning for us to live righteously. It is not a real situation, certainly not what we can build a doctrine of 'paradise' on.
Jesu spoke correctly to the thief on the cross. He died and his next conscious moment will be as he stands before God, at the final Judgment.
With all the rest of the dead. Rev 20:5
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This false idea directly contradicts what the Bible teaches. We are told that the dead know nothing, they cannot do anything and only after the Millennium will they stand before God in Judgment. Only the Christian martyrs are allowed to cry out at times.
Then; those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and its the Lake of Fire for the rest.

Luke 16:23, the story of Abraham and the rich man, is a homily, a warning for us to live righteously. It is not a real situation, certainly not what we can build a doctrine of 'paradise' on.
Jesu spoke correctly to the thief on the cross. He died and his next conscious moment will be as he stands before God, at the final Judgment.
With all the rest of the dead. Rev 20:5
I see your pattern. If solid evidence is in the Bible to refute one of your claims, that evidence is either "not biblical" or an "homily," etc. Well, you are wrong. Luke 16:23 really did happen. It proves there is a place called Hades, just as Jesus proved there is a place called Paradise. Was John told a falsehood in Rev 6:8 about Hades? Did Luke get it wrong in five verses that mention Lazarus (Luke 16:19-20, 23-25)? Was Paul wrong about Paradise in 2 Cor 12:2-3?

You still botch the meaning of Rev 20:5. Verse 4 is about martyrs. Those are dead believers (who are souls under the altar). Verse 5 says: The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. ----- Those are the dead UNBELIEVERS who will be convicted at the GWTJ.
 
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WilliamLhk

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The idea that mortals will live alongside immortals, is a gross failure of any logic test.
Hear the word according to keras!
No; Rev 19:14 cannot be set aside. It is confirmed by Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31.
ONLY angels will be with Jesus at His Return, He sends them out to gather those who faithful people who remain alive. Matthew 24:30-31

Before arguing that humans will Return with Jesus, proof is required of how those people got to be in heaven.
The proof is in many different scriptures that have been quoted to you very many times, but your tunnel vision won't allow you to comprehend them.

You dodged my challenge to you to provide just one unequivocal verse that hagios used alone as a plural noun must mean angels. And all you could come up with is a circular argument using Rev. 19:14. Talk about failing a logic test!
 
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keras

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Hear the word according to keras!
All my posts are according to the Prophetic Word.
You dodged my challenge to you to provide just one unequivocal verse that hagios used alone as a plural noun must mean angels. And all you could come up with is a circular argument using Rev. 19:14.
I proved that angels are the correct ones who will accompany Jesus at His glorious Return.
You dodged my challenge to provide a definitive scripture to prove the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Well, you are wrong. Luke 16:23 really did happen. It proves there is a place called Hades, just as Jesus proved there is a place called Paradise

Literal or figurative?​

The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus appears in the context and proximity of other parables and is located near the end of a long line of parables in Luke 15 to 16—the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son, the unjust steward and finally the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

In each of these parables we don’t expect every detail to be literal. We don’t need to strive to have the features of a sheep or become metal like a coin or even become a wayward son, instead, we should learn the spiritual principles that Jesus is trying to teach from each parable.

Here are 6 reasons the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus should be taken figuratively:

  1. When Lazarus, the poor beggar, dies he is taken by angels to Abraham's bosom. We know that this is only figurative or a parabolic expression because no one can literally live or even fit inside Abraham’s chest. For that matter all of the dead from ages past couldn’t fit inside his bosom either. And if this parable is literal, where would Abraham have gone when he died? Into his own bosom?
  2. The rich man is buried in the grave (v. 22). No one believes that a person’s literal dead body in the grave is also miraculously in a burning hell at the moment they die. Additionally, many graves have been opened and exhumed, these bodies are still physically in the grave or have turned to dust and have not been taken away directly to hell.
  3. The rich man could talk directly to Abraham, from hell to heaven, close enough for people to speak to one another (v. 23). Imagine living in heaven while hearing the cries of those in hell. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as you would hear the cries of the lost and perhaps even of your own relatives.
  4. The rich man asks Abraham the following in verse 24: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” If this scene is truly literal, the one drop of water would evaporate before it could even reach the rich man and there would be no point of even making this request.
  5. Furthermore, if this parable is literal, do disembodied souls have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues? Could a soul even transport a drop of water to the rich man? As we look at this, it is clear that this parable is an allegory and figurative in nature.
  6. Lastly, we are to focus on the principles of this parable and not create doctrines out of every detail that is mentioned. This is clear from the parable located directly before the Rich Man and Lazarus— the unrighteous servant found in Luke 16:1-10. In this parable Jesus isn’t calling for believers to be dishonest servants but rather that they should use their money for God and the good of others.
If the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is literal it would cause problems. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as the saved could hear the screams of those in hell. And how could Abraham have room for all those deceased people in his bosom?

You probably think you own the Brooklyn Bridge, too!
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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All my posts are according to the Prophetic Word.

I proved that angels are the correct ones who will accompany Jesus at His glorious Return.
You dodged my challenge to provide a definitive scripture to prove the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

Literal or figurative?​

The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus appears in the context and proximity of other parables and is located near the end of a long line of parables in Luke 15 to 16—the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son, the unjust steward and finally the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

In each of these parables we don’t expect every detail to be literal. We don’t need to strive to have the features of a sheep or become metal like a coin or even become a wayward son, instead, we should learn the spiritual principles that Jesus is trying to teach from each parable.

Here are 6 reasons the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus should be taken figuratively:

  1. When Lazarus, the poor beggar, dies he is taken by angels to Abraham's bosom. We know that this is only figurative or a parabolic expression because no one can literally live or even fit inside Abraham’s chest. For that matter all of the dead from ages past couldn’t fit inside his bosom either. And if this parable is literal, where would Abraham have gone when he died? Into his own bosom?
  2. The rich man is buried in the grave (v. 22). No one believes that a person’s literal dead body in the grave is also miraculously in a burning hell at the moment they die. Additionally, many graves have been opened and exhumed, these bodies are still physically in the grave or have turned to dust and have not been taken away directly to hell.
  3. The rich man could talk directly to Abraham, from hell to heaven, close enough for people to speak to one another (v. 23). Imagine living in heaven while hearing the cries of those in hell. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as you would hear the cries of the lost and perhaps even of your own relatives.
  4. The rich man asks Abraham the following in verse 24: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” If this scene is truly literal, the one drop of water would evaporate before it could even reach the rich man and there would be no point of even making this request.
  5. Furthermore, if this parable is literal, do disembodied souls have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues? Could a soul even transport a drop of water to the rich man? As we look at this, it is clear that this parable is an allegory and figurative in nature.
  6. Lastly, we are to focus on the principles of this parable and not create doctrines out of every detail that is mentioned. This is clear from the parable located directly before the Rich Man and Lazarus— the unrighteous servant found in Luke 16:1-10. In this parable Jesus isn’t calling for believers to be dishonest servants but rather that they should use their money for God and the good of others.
If the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is literal it would cause problems. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as the saved could hear the screams of those in hell. And how could Abraham have room for all those deceased people in his bosom?

You probably think you own the Brooklyn Bridge, too!
Your six reasons are nonsense. #1. Bosom is the only figurative word used. It means "at one's side" or "alongside." #3. The rich man is in Hades. Lazarus is in Paradise. Luke 16:26 cites the chasm that is between them. #4. The rich man was told that the chasm prevented any help. You haven't read Luke 16:19-31. Please do so.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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All my posts are according to the Prophetic Word.

I proved that angels are the correct ones who will accompany Jesus at His glorious Return.
You dodged my challenge to provide a definitive scripture to prove the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

Literal or figurative?​

The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus appears in the context and proximity of other parables and is located near the end of a long line of parables in Luke 15 to 16—the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son, the unjust steward and finally the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

In each of these parables we don’t expect every detail to be literal. We don’t need to strive to have the features of a sheep or become metal like a coin or even become a wayward son, instead, we should learn the spiritual principles that Jesus is trying to teach from each parable.

Here are 6 reasons the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus should be taken figuratively:

  1. When Lazarus, the poor beggar, dies he is taken by angels to Abraham's bosom. We know that this is only figurative or a parabolic expression because no one can literally live or even fit inside Abraham’s chest. For that matter all of the dead from ages past couldn’t fit inside his bosom either. And if this parable is literal, where would Abraham have gone when he died? Into his own bosom?
  2. The rich man is buried in the grave (v. 22). No one believes that a person’s literal dead body in the grave is also miraculously in a burning hell at the moment they die. Additionally, many graves have been opened and exhumed, these bodies are still physically in the grave or have turned to dust and have not been taken away directly to hell.
  3. The rich man could talk directly to Abraham, from hell to heaven, close enough for people to speak to one another (v. 23). Imagine living in heaven while hearing the cries of those in hell. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as you would hear the cries of the lost and perhaps even of your own relatives.
  4. The rich man asks Abraham the following in verse 24: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” If this scene is truly literal, the one drop of water would evaporate before it could even reach the rich man and there would be no point of even making this request.
  5. Furthermore, if this parable is literal, do disembodied souls have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues? Could a soul even transport a drop of water to the rich man? As we look at this, it is clear that this parable is an allegory and figurative in nature.
  6. Lastly, we are to focus on the principles of this parable and not create doctrines out of every detail that is mentioned. This is clear from the parable located directly before the Rich Man and Lazarus— the unrighteous servant found in Luke 16:1-10. In this parable Jesus isn’t calling for believers to be dishonest servants but rather that they should use their money for God and the good of others.
If the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is literal it would cause problems. Heaven wouldn’t be enjoyable as the saved could hear the screams of those in hell. And how could Abraham have room for all those deceased people in his bosom?

You probably think you own the Brooklyn Bridge, too!
The rapture to Heaven is easy to prove. John 14:2-3 (ESV): 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

The context from verse 2 is each of us having our own residence in Heaven. That context carries over to verse 3. Therefore, the phrase "will take you to myself" is the rapture to Heaven.
 
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