John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[ViaCrucis]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby started teaching it in the 1800's. This view is promoted a lot by people who denounce the pre-trib rapture view.

It reminds me a lot of the view that Protestantism has no basis in the historical church up until the 1500's. Protestants believe that the church failed for 1500 years and that only because of Martin Luther and his fellow reformers, the "true church" was restored to its first century purity. However, there is no record of anything approaching today's Protestantism in the early church. Even Martin Luther believed in venerating the Virgin Mary and the doctrine of Communion being the literal body and blood of Christ. Most of Protestantism's evangelical denominations are pretty divorced from historical Christianity and that includes Reformed Christianity as it existed 400 years ago.

So, my question to those who say the pre-trib rapture is false because no one taught it or believed it until the 1800's, why are you Protestant? According to your logic, Protestantism is false, because no believed it or taught it until the Reformation? Seems like shaky logic to use if you're Protestant and post-trib.

You would do yourself a lot of favors if you studied a bit more about the Reformation.

This is from the Augsburg Confession, the statement of faith presented to Emperor Charles of the Holy Roman Empire, which outlined the Evangelical faith of Luther and the other Evangelical reformers.

"This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.

Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches. " - The Augsburg Confession, Article XXI

For Lutherans the Church of the 1500 years before Luther is our Church. Because it's Christ's Church. It did not fail; it did not need to be restored. It needed to be reformed. That's why it is called the Reformation.

Bonus fact: The term "Protestant" has nothing to do with protesting the Catholic Church or Rome. The Holy Roman Emperor passed a law that said that the Elector-Princes of the Empire could choose for themselves which expression of faith could be practiced in their realms--whether Evangelical (aka Lutheran), Reformed, or Roman. However, the emperor later went back on that, at the 2nd Imperial Diet of Speyer the emperor told the gathered princes that they must enforce Roman religious practice on their subjects. In response to this, the Evangelical and Reformed princes said they would not obey that decree. Their protest of the 2nd Diet of Speyer became known as the Protestation at Speyer, and those who protested became known as "The Protestants". It is from these princes protesting an imperial decision that the term "Protestant" came to be applied to both the Evangelical and Reform movements of the Reformation. It would take time, but eventually "Protestant" came to be a catch-all term for not just the Evangelical and Reform sides of the Magisterial Reformation, but also applied to the Radical Reformation, and various later post-Reformation movements.

This is why the term "Protestant" covers just about anything that isn't Roman Catholic or Orthodox; and so Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, and Pentecostals all fall under the "Protestant" moniker.

The term "Protestant", as a consequence, has all but become meaningless.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Marilyn C]

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN WHO ARE REGISTERED IN HEAVEN..` (Heb. 12: 22)

 

[keras]

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN WHO ARE REGISTERED IN HEAVEN..` (Heb. 12: 22)

Is that your address now?
I assume it isn't yet, as you are using the Internet, on earth.

So; perhaps you could show us, from the Bible of course, when you expect to join the company of angels.

 

[Marilyn C]

Is that your address now?
I assume it isn't yet, as you are using the Internet, on earth.

So; perhaps you could show us, from the Bible of course, when you expect to join the company of angels.

`And He (the Father) may send Jesus....` (Acts 3: 20) Time for Jesus to gather His Body together and take them home.

On the earth -

`A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong,....` (Joel 2: 2)

That is the beginning of the day (time period) of the LORD (God Almighty in judgment) when the northern army (& others) are brought down by God to the mountains of Israel, (Golan Heights).

The Body of Christ will not be in the time period. We will see the northern army turn back from where it is and then brought down to Israel.

`I will turn you around, out hooks in your jaws and lead you out......You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud,.....` (Ez. 38: 4 & 16)

Time for us to go home.

 

[keras]

Time for us to go home.

Please explain how we Christians today are different from the ones before us, They faced terrible persecutions and thousands died for their faith.

Revelation 6:9-11 tells us that their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. They must wait there until the number of martyrs is complete.
It seems that only the dead martyrs get to go to heaven and then not as living people.
How can it be possible for todays Christians, to go and consciously live in heaven? Before any trials and testing.

The reality is; it is impossible and can never happen, but what God does Promise, is for those who do stand firm in their faith through the difficult times ahead, He will mightily bless and reward them. Matthew 16:27

 

[Timtofly]

No - Paul never said that anyone receives immortality, until the final Judgment, 1 Cir 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment AFTER the Millennium.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The last Trumpet, is certainly not this:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

 

[keras]

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The last Trumpet, is certainly not this:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

The Last Trumpet will be the final call to raise the dead for Judgment. Logical, sensible, Biblical and what will happen. At the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
It is simply beyond the realm of possibility to have immortals living alongside mortals. The Bibe does not say such a thing could happen, why believe it?

Please address the scriptures which tell us when Death will be no more. 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 and Revelation 21:4 are parallel Prophesies.

 

[Timtofly]

The Last Trumpet will be the final call to raise the dead for Judgment. Logical, sensible, Biblical and what will happen. At the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
It is simply beyond the realm of possibility to have immortals living alongside mortals. The Bibe does not say such a thing could happen, why believe it?

Please address the scriptures which tell us when Death will be no more. 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 and Revelation 21:4 are parallel Prophesies.

Jesus reigns on earth for a thousand years. So you are changing Paul's point of the Second Coming. Have you changed from a Premillennial Second Coming to a Post Millennium stance?

You are alive. The end of death is not about those currently in sheol. The end of death would be the last time a soul entered sheol. You have it wrong that death is over at the last resurrection. For many, the LOF is the continuation of death. So being dead is not about keeping death as an enemy. The end of death is about those alive, they will never die.

For some reason you think God keeps the sons of God in a state of death. Death stopped when the second birth happened. Death is defeated. But death is also the wage of disobedience.


Until God removes the ability to disobey, death is still an enemy. So resurrection is not the end of death. The end of death is the end of laws that can result in death. That is why this creation ends, before the GWT event. But sin ends before the 1,000 years even starts. People cannot sin during the Day of the Lord. They can disobey God. So at the end after the 1,000 years, no one can disobey God. That is the end of death.

Sin is not the last enemy. Sin was defeated with the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The winepress of God's wrath literally ended Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That happens prior to the 1,000 year reign of Jesus as King on the earth. If humans naturally sin during this time, they would all die. This reign is not about dying. It is about living without sin and death. But one still has to obey. Laws still exist, just not sin. Sin entered because of Adam. Sin will leave when Jesus is declared King.

That is when Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled. That is when sin is removed per Romans 11:27

"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

This is the result of the Second Coming. You put the Second Coming off until after the 1,000 years.

 

[ozso]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby started teaching it in the 1800's. This view is promoted a lot by people who denounce the pre-trib rapture view.

It reminds me a lot of the view that Protestantism has no basis in the historical church up until the 1500's. Protestants believe that the church failed for 1500 years and that only because of Martin Luther and his fellow reformers, the "true church" was restored to its first century purity. However, there is no record of anything approaching today's Protestantism in the early church. Even Martin Luther believed in venerating the Virgin Mary and the doctrine of Communion being the literal body and blood of Christ. Most of Protestantism's evangelical denominations are pretty divorced from historical Christianity and that includes Reformed Christianity as it existed 400 years ago.

So, my question to those who say the pre-trib rapture is false because no one taught it or believed it until the 1800's, why are you Protestant? According to your logic, Protestantism is false, because no believed it or taught it until the Reformation? Seems like shaky logic to use if you're Protestant and post-trib.

A lot of what Protestants don't hold to is doctrine that didn't exist and or become official for centuries until after the Apostles. So the logic I go by is if Jesus, his apostles, an their direct successors didn't clearly teach it, there's a likelihood that it is something man alone invented.

 

[keras]

You put the Second Coming off until after the 1,000 years.

You ignored a plain request, why? Here it is again:
Please address the scriptures which tell us when Death will be no more. 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 and Revelation 21:4 are parallel Prophesies.

I do not and will never say the glorious Return will happen at any other time than when Revelation 19:11 tells us. That is: after the Great Tribulation and before the Millennium.
The rest of your post is a lot of confused and wrong opinions.

 

[Douggg]

The Last Trumpet will be the final call to raise the dead for Judgment.

The rest of the dead are raised for the Great White Throne Judgement, the second resurrection associated with the 1000 years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection [verse 4].

There will be believers who die during the great tribulation, who become Christians having missed the rapture/resurrection, who die for other reasons than being martyred.

Those are the rest of dead who will live forever when the books are opened and their names found written in the Book of Life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Each person in the order, determined by what they believe.

1. rapture/resurrection event to heaven - before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist. Avoiding the great tribulation. Return to earth with Jesus.

2. resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs here on earth - at the start of the 1000 years. Called the first resurrection of the 1000 years.

3. The Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years are finished. The cosmos and present earth destroyed. No trumpet sounded in the passage. The Book of Life named persons - live forever. Or the Lake of fire, the Second Death, for them not named in the Book of Life,

 

[keras]

The rest of the dead are raised for the Great White Throne Judgement, the second resurrection associated with the 1000 years.

The group who will be raised when Jesus Returns, are the martyrs killed during the GT. The rest of the dead comprises of every other person wo has ever lie and died, including Adam.
If your post was an attempt to prove that other people will be raised, get glorified bodies, or float off to heaven, you are very mistaken.

1. rapture/resurrection event to heaven - before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist. Avoiding the great tribulation. Return to earth with Jesus.

Why do you promote such unbiblical fables?
The removal of the faithful Christians when the AC desecrates the Temple, is to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:6 & 14 When Jesus Returns, His angels will gather them back to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31

 

[Timtofly]

You ignored a plain request, why? Here it is again:
Please address the scriptures which tell us when Death will be no more. 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 and Revelation 21:4 are parallel Prophesies.

I do not and will never say the glorious Return will happen at any other time than when Revelation 19:11 tells us. That is: after the Great Tribulation and before the Millennium.
The rest of your post is a lot of confused and wrong opinions.

It is victory for those in Adam's flesh.

Adam's flesh cannot enter the Millennium any more than Adam's flesh can enter Paradise or Heaven.

You are confused by stating sin and Adam's flesh keep on going after the Second Coming.

 

[keras]

Adam's flesh cannot enter the Millennium

Isaiah 65:20 shows you are wrong. People and animals will die during the Millennium, albeit living for much longer, like the ancient Patriarchs did.

 

[Timtofly]

Isaiah 65:20 shows you are wrong. People and animals will die during the Millennium, albeit living for much longer, like the ancient Patriarchs did.

Death is the result of breaking the Law. Always has been, since Adam disobeyed God. In the millennium it will be instant death. If you never disobey, you will never die. If one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, they would be dead in the womb, because we are born sinners, and born dead. We are already in a state of death at conception. There is no sin in the Millennium, only everlasting righteousness. A person who disobeys at 100 will be considered an accursed child.

It is not that they live longer. It is that after outgrowing childhood at 100, they will be less likely to want to disobey the rules. Disobedience would be considered as an abnormal person.

 

[keras]

Death is the result of breaking the Law. Always has been, since Adam disobeyed God. In the millennium it will be instant death. If you never disobey, you will never die. If one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, they would be dead in the womb, because we are born sinners, and born dead. We are already in a state of death at conception. There is no sin in the Millennium, only everlasting righteousness. A person who disobeys at 100 will be considered an accursed child.

It is not that they live longer. It is that after outgrowing childhood at 100, they will be less likely to want to disobey the rules. Disobedience would be considered as an abnormal person.

Why not believe what the Prophetic Word actually says?
Your convoluted and fanciful ideas are obviously wrong, as there will be sin in the Millennium and those who follow Satan will all get together when he is released. As Revelation 20:7-10 describes.

 

[Timtofly]

Why not believe what the Prophetic Word actually says?
Your convoluted and fanciful ideas are obviously wrong, as there will be sin in the Millennium and those who follow Satan will all get together when he is released. As Revelation 20:7-10 describes.

No verse declares there is sin in the Millennium. What law is broken when Satan deceives people? If they are already deceived sinners, how can they be deceived by Satan?

These people are righteous just like Adam and Eve were before Eve was decieved. There was no sin in the world prior to Adam's disobedience. There will be no sin in the world during the Day of the Lord.

Your continuation of sin post the Second Coming has no biblical support as well as your rejection of those currently alive and physically enjoying Paradise.

 

[Dan Perez]

Correct, but not to heaven.
The Christian peoples will migrate to and live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9

The theory of being raptured to heaven, is wrong and can never happen. Eventually, Gid and therefore heaven come to us, Revelation 21:4
A rapture to heaven of the Church is the prevalent belief of the Western Christians today. This is very unfortunate as when it doesn’t happen, many may lose their faith.
The ‘rapture’ is a belief based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork:

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.
1/ Such an idea is not found in the Bible.
2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times and how we must endure until the end.
5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
6/ Jesus said that we Christians could be deceived. He was right!
7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will turn to fables and listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.

God has given us the information so we know His Plans for the end times, great Promises of protection and Blessings to His people as they stand firm in their faith, as they go thru all that must happen and welcome Jesus when He Returns.

You are right about only one thing and that is there is no Greek word for RAPTURE .

But in 2 Thess 2:1 , Paul uses the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA and who is Christ COMING for , US !!

Then in 1 Thess 4:15 Paul uses the same Greek word COMING and verse 15-17 we are caught AWAY IN clouds for a MEETING of the Lord into the AIR and so we will be at all TIMES be with the Lord .

dan p

 

[keras]

Your continuation of sin post the Second Coming has no biblical support as well as your rejection of those currently alive and physically enjoying Paradise.

As Satan will be locked away, then he cannot cause people to sin in the Millennium. But there will still be mistakes and accidents, which require atonement. Zechariah 14:16-21 describes how the failure to go annually to worship the Lord in Jerusalem, is punishable by the withholding of rain.
Then at the end of the thousand years, Satan is released and sin becomes rife again.

As for people enjoying Paradise now, that idea is a pagan lie, believed by stupid Islamic terrorists.

verse 15-17 we are caught AWAY IN clouds for a MEETING of the Lord into the AIR and so we will be at all TIMES be with the Lord .

The Lord has come down from heaven, he sends His angels to gather the faithful Christians, Matthew 24:30-31, mostly those who were kept in a place of safety. Revelation 12:14
We/they; meet Jesus in the atmosphere and go with Him to Jerusalem, from where, He will reign for the next thousand years.
It will be a transportation, as demonstrated by Philip in Acts 8:39
There will be no body change, it is only after the Millennium that the Book of Life is opened and those whose names are found in it, will receive immortality.

 

[Timtofly]

As Satan will be locked away, then he cannot cause people to sin in the Millennium. But there will still be mistakes and accidents, which require atonement. Zechariah 14:16-21 describes how the failure to go annually to worship the Lord in Jerusalem, is punishable by the withholding of rain.
Then at the end of the thousand years, Satan is released and sin becomes rife again.

As for people enjoying Paradise now, that idea is a pagan lie, believed by stupid Islamic terrorists.

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Is Jesus a stupid Islamic terrorist?

Yes, in the millennium people will need to obey. When has disobedience stopped bringing about death? Withholding rain is not death. It is a discomfort.

If you decided to break a small law, should the rest of humanity be placed under death?