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Israel-Hamas Thread II

Philip_B

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Do you not accept intellectually the fact that the Hamas' attack on Oct. 7, 2023 was an unjust aggression? Are all unjust aggressions evil acts?
I am appalled by what happened on the 7th of October. However, I think measuring everything in the light of this in isolation from the context and history is risky and likely to lead you to a false conclusion. Given that the attack on October 7, 2023, was planned and coordinated, you have to ask yourself what was the reason for it, what was the purpose of it, and what did they expect to get out of it? Added to that, given the complexity of the region it is reasonable to conclude that there are other players, and they may be difficult to determine at the moment.
 
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Valletta

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I am appalled by what happened on the 7th of October. However, I think measuring everything in the light of this in isolation from the context and history is risky and likely to lead you to a false conclusion. Given that the attack on October 7, 2023, was planned and coordinated, you have to ask yourself what was the reason for it, what was the purpose of it, and what did they expect to get out of it? Added to that, given the complexity of the region it is reasonable to conclude that there are other players, and they may be difficult to determine at the moment.
And look at how few Muslims protested what happened.
 
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o_mlly

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I am appalled by what happened on the 7th of October. However, I think measuring everything in the light of this in isolation from the context and history is risky and likely to lead you to a false conclusion. Given that the attack on October 7, 2023, was planned and coordinated, you have to ask yourself what was the reason for it, what was the purpose of it, and what did they expect to get out of it? Added to that, given the complexity of the region it is reasonable to conclude that there are other players, and they may be difficult to determine at the moment.
The degree of culpability that the individual Hamas actors bear as a result of the attack on Oct. 7 is between God and them.

If others enabled Hamas or remotely participated in that evil act then they also have to answer to Him for they are also evil doers.

However, if an authority adjudicates those acts are war crimes then all those whose guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished in the here and now.

What is I think clear is the Hamas attack on the Kibbutz was unjust. And that fact alone is sufficient to establish the moral categories of the combatants, ie.,, Hamas as the unjust aggressor and the IDF as the self-defenders regardless of why Hamas acted or the complex history of the region.
 
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Bradskii

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How is it that you are self-appointed as jury and judge of these soldiers? The investigation is still underway, but the "judge" has already ruled, "Guilty!" How do you know that the IDF soldiers intentionally shot Israeli hostages? You don't.
I do. They were Israeli hostages. There is no doubt about that. And the men were intentionally shot. Someone wasn't cleaning his weapon and it went off accidentally. Shots were deliberately fired at them. This was a tragic incident. Not a tragic accident.

Again we see you and others bending over backwards to excuse behaviour by one side simply because they are on that one side. Palestinians? All bad. Israelis? All good.
 
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Philip_B

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The degree of culpability that the individual Hamas actors bear as a result of the attack on Oct. 7 is between God and them.

If others enabled Hamas or remotely participated in that evil act then they also have to answer to Him for they are also evil doers.

However, if an authority adjudicates those acts are war crimes then all those whose guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished in the here and now.

What is I think clear is the Hamas attack on the Kibbutz was unjust. And that fact alone is sufficient to establish the moral categories of the combatants, ie.,, Hamas as the unjust aggressor and the IDF as the self-defenders regardless of why Hamas acted or the complex history of the region.
So do you want to solve the problem, or simply punish one offence and use that as a justification to commit more offences? If that is the case, then we are not learning the lessons of history.
 
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rjs330

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The tragedy of the 40 or so million stateless people on the planet is another edge of this great drama. We human beings need a place, and we need to belong.
They could have had a state a long time ago. They have perpetually refused to accept ANY offer of statehood. Besides they are recognized as a state by some countries already. So I do t understand your point. They have a place that's theirs. They have been recognized as a state by countries in the UN. They gave also been offered by others a recognized statehood and refused to accept. What more do you want. If they are not unilaterally accepted as a state it's their own fault.
 
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rjs330

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I am appalled by what happened on the 7th of October. However, I think measuring everything in the light of this in isolation from the context and history is risky and likely to lead you to a false conclusion. Given that the attack on October 7, 2023, was planned and coordinated, you have to ask yourself what was the reason for it, what was the purpose of it, and what did they expect to get out of it? Added to that, given the complexity of the region it is reasonable to conclude that there are other players, and they may be difficult to determine at the moment.
Why are you appalled? If you are so reasoned in your approach why would you be appalled at the actions? Was there something wrong with them based upon of course the complexity of the region? It was it flat out an act of evil barbarism completed by a terrorist organization?

I know you believe other actors might be involved. And you may be right. Does that somehow make the actions less evil?
 
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Philip_B

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They could have had a state a long time ago. They have perpetually refused to accept ANY offer of statehood. Besides they are recognized as a state by some countries already. So I do t understand your point. They have a place that's theirs. They have been recognized as a state by countries in the UN. They gave also been offered by others a recognized statehood and refused to accept. What more do you want. If they are not unilaterally accepted as a state it's their own fault.
That is true of Palestine, and it is also true that Israel along with my country and the USA do not. Please do not pretend that any of this is simple. Part of the current disquiet has some measure in the recognition of Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.
 
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Philip_B

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Why are you appalled? If you are so reasoned in your approach why would you be appalled at the actions? Was there something wrong with them based upon of course the complexity of the region? It was it flat out an act of evil barbarism completed by a terrorist organization?

I know you believe other actors might be involved. And you may be right. Does that somehow make the actions less evil?
Because I am a human being and I do not want to see my brothers and sisters in humanity cut down and murdered, terrorised or brutalised by anyone.

It does not make the actors any less culpable, or the actions any less evil. I am not sure when we do evil to fight evil that evil is not winning.
 
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rjs330

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That is true of Palestine, and it is also true that Israel along with my country and the USA do not. Please do not pretend that any of this is simple. Part of the current disquiet has some measure in the recognition of Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.
Oh boo hoo on the Jerusalem issue. If countries don't recognize Palestine as a state it's Palestines own fault b cause they refuse to accept ANY offer of statehood that has been offered to them. These other countries have recognized Palestine as a state even when Palestine hasn't recognized itself as a state. It's just posturing by these other countries. If Palestine would get their stuff together, be willing to accept it's own statehood and do what's necessary to create it's own state it would be better off. Instead they piddle around and choose terrorist organizations to lead them. They are their own worst enemies at this point. By now they could have accept d several offers and been well in their way to an economically resilient and prosperous country. Instead they chose to launch missiles into Israel and be led by terrorists.
 
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Philip_B

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Oh boo hoo on the Jerusalem issue. If countries don't recognize Palestine as a state it's Palestines own fault b cause they refuse to accept ANY offer of statehood that has been offered to them. These other countries have recognized Palestine as a state even when Palestine hasn't recognized itself as a state. It's just posturing by these other countries. If Palestine would get their stuff together, be willing to accept it's own statehood and do what's necessary to create it's own state it would be better off. Instead they piddle around and choose terrorist organizations to lead them. They are their own worst enemies at this point. By now they could have accept d several offers and been well in their way to an economically resilient and prosperous country. Instead they chose to launch missiles into Israel and be led by terrorists.
Bordering on the bizarre does nothing to help your argument.
 
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Pommer

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That is true of Palestine, and it is also true that Israel along with my country and the USA do not. Please do not pretend that any of this is simple. Part of the current disquiet has some measure in the recognition of Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.
Feature≠bug
 
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Pommer

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Oh boo hoo on the Jerusalem issue. If countries don't recognize Palestine as a state it's Palestines own fault b cause they refuse to accept ANY offer of statehood that has been offered to them.
If “self-determination” could mean “get tired of being cooped up by our neighbor Israel and ‘start something‘ because they could finally show what monsters they are for still being on OUR LAND! (and possibly kill us all)” ?

That’s a valid, if sui-genicidal, view…HAMAS attacked because it had no choice but to attack.
 
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rjs330

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It does not make the actors any less culpable, or the actions any less evil. I am not sure when we do evil to fight evil that evil is not winning.
I agree with this. Who exactly is doing evil to fight evil in this circumstance? Certainly not Israel. Unless of course you believe war is an evil in and of itself. If you believe that, then I'm okay with that. There certainly are those that believe that and are often committed to that. That's fine by me.

But if you don't believe that then you understand what war is about and that there can be evil acts committed during a war by individuals, but that doesn't make the country involved evil.

In an Israeli soldier that violates the rules of engagement doesn't make the entire organization evil.
 
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rjs330

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If “self-determination” could mean “get tired of being cooped up by our neighbor Israel and ‘start something‘ because they could finally show what monsters they are for still being on OUR LAND! (and possibly kill us all)” ?

That’s a valid, if sui-genicidal, view…HAMAS attacked because it had no choice but to attack.
No it's not a valid view. Not at all. Cooped up? Why are they coop d up?

Hamas didn't have to attack anyone. They've been attacking Israel since they came to power. I honestly don't think you really think that anymore.

Are you just being argumentative now?
 
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Pommer

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No it's not a valid view. Not at all. Cooped up? Why are they coop d up?

Hamas didn't have to attack anyone. They've been attacking Israel since they came to power. I honestly don't think you really think that anymore.

Are you just being argumentative now?
Look, if HAMAS knew that its days (of support) within Gaza were numbered and they’d suddenly be “the targets”, from BOTH sides. Better they “go out in a blaze of glory!” ?

Yes, it’s crazy, and yet here we are.
 
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o_mlly

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Again we see you and others bending over backwards ...
? So, those who believe in due process "bend over backwards", as opposed to those who "leap forward" to judgement? We are fortunate that such uninformed kibitzers are not in positions of authority.
 
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o_mlly

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So do you want to solve the problem, or simply punish one offence and use that as a justification to commit more offences? If that is the case, then we are not learning the lessons of history.
If you are a pacifist then I may be able to understand your position, but you have not claimed to be one.

One does not commit "more offences" when acting in self-defense.

"Lessons of history"? What lessons do you think can be productively applied? "Land for peace"? Nope, did not work. Only if peace is the willed outcome of both sides then negotiations are possible. But the "lessons of history" show that Israel has no peace partner with which to negotiate.
 
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Philip_B

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If you are a pacifist then I may be able to understand your position, but you have not claimed to be one.

One does not commit "more offences" when acting in self-defense.

"Lessons of history"? What lessons do you think can be productively applied? "Land for peace"? Nope, did not work. Only if peace is the willed outcome of both sides then negotiations are possible. But the "lessons of history" show that Israel has no peace partner with which to negotiate.
Of course, it is not about me, the labels I choose to wear, or the labels you choose to hang on me. As a matter of preference, I would prefer peace to war. However, I do understand there are just causes for war, however, I am cautious here, for sometimes the argument for a Just War is simply an argument to just war.

I believe it is possible to commit more offences when acting in self-defence. The action of self-defence is not an offence, however, it is not a blank cheque to do whatever you want unchecked. There are other actions going on the the world, where clearly an argument for a Just War has been presented, yet unless you are invested in the situation you would probably see it as just words to justify waging war.

We have been warring on this planet for most of human history, and whilst it seems entirely senseless, it is clear that there is some profit in it for some. It seems counter-intuitive to think there is more money to be made in the production and sale of armament than in the production and sale of agricultural equipment.

The lessons of history tell us that war is not productive in the long term. War benefits the rich and the powerful, not the poor and the powerless. Autocratic regimes are more inclined to war. The path to peace requires respect, concession and compromise. Whilst these words are not in the vocabulary of either party to the current conflict there is little likelihood of any resolution that will endure.
 
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o_mlly

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Of course, it is not about me, the labels I choose to wear, or the labels you choose to hang on me.
I have not labelled you but your argument as pacifist.
As a matter of preference, I would prefer peace to war.
All rational people do.
However, I do understand there are just causes for war, however, I am cautious here, for sometimes the argument for a Just War is simply an argument to just war.
And do you think that this is one of those times? If so please explain.
The action of self-defence is not an offence, however, it is not a blank cheque to do whatever you want unchecked.
The ius in bello principles have already been cited in the thread. Do you disagree with any of them or think other constraints need to be applied?
There are other actions going on the the world, where clearly an argument for a Just War has been presented, yet unless you are invested in the situation you would probably see it as just words to justify waging war.
?
We have been warring on this planet for most of human history, and whilst it seems entirely senseless, it is clear that there is some profit in it for some. It seems counter-intuitive to think there is more money to be made in the production and sale of armament than in the production and sale of agricultural equipment.
Profit? Do you think that that is the motivation of Hamas or Israel in this conflict? If not then please stay on topic.
The lessons of history tell us that war is not productive in the long term. War benefits the rich and the powerful, not the poor and the powerless. Autocratic regimes are more inclined to war.
I think not. Examining only wars in which the non-autocratic USA was involved: The Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, ... WW1, WW2 all benefited all of its citizens.
The path to peace requires respect, concession and compromise. Whilst these words are not in the vocabulary of either party to the current conflict there is little likelihood of any resolution that will endure.
Those words are in the Israeli vocabulary but not in Hamas'. The vanquishing of the unjust aggressor seems to be better choice than to lay down arms and accept tyranny if lucky or genocide if unlucky.

I'm thinking the "duck rule" applies here. Platitudes on the evils of war does not further the thread so I will depart this exchange until you post something that does not read like a purely a pacifist argument.
 
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