Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Pommer]

Leave the judging to Jesus rather than trying to find fault with others. Situations under heavy fire can be difficult and you yourself may have done the same thing in a similar situation. When dealing with jihadists hesitation could get your comrades killed.

Does this mean that you agree with post #2704?

 

[o_mlly]

The point still stands. They shot unarmed people carrying a white flag. It was a criminal act ...

No, it is only an accusation and the IDF, as it should, is investigating.

Of course, antisemites would prematurely jump to the conclusion "war crime" before the evidence is in.

 

[wing2000]

‘Do You Have Another Solution?’ Israeli Ambassador to the UK Gives Stunning Response When Interviewer Says She Made Case for ‘Destroying the Whole of Gaza’​

Ambassador Hotovely]: One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to [a] [Hamas] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition.

DALE: But that’s an argument for destroying the whole of Gaza — every single building in there.

HOTOVELY: So, do you have another solution

It must be such a relief knowing that everything in Gaza is a legitimate target; there's no way to make mistakes!

That has been the quandry since the beginning of this conflict. How does Israel defang Hamas while trying to minimize civilian losses. Given that tunnels transverse *all* highly popluated areas, it's an impossible task. Israel chose to proceed knowing the civilian casualty count would be extremely high. Once more, their use of heavy ariel bombs assure tens of thousands will be killed. It s till remains to be seen how effective this strategy is from a military perspective. How much of Hamas' military capability is degraded?

On the other hand, what was the alternative - keeping in mind that politically, the Israeli government was under extreme pressure to do something? Additionally, the government was embarrassed by the utter failure of the IDF to defend its citizens. What would other countries do in a similar scenario? (We already know what the US did after 9/11)

Seal off Gaza by attempting to destroy all tunnels into Israel and Egypt? That was tried before and obviously failed.
Assasinate Hama leaders over the next decade?
Other options?

 

[Valletta]

But the United Nations and human rights organizations were slow to denounce the reports of rape and mutilation against Israelis – mostly girls and women but also men. And Hamas has denied its fighters committed sexual violence during the coordinated attacks.

Attackers laughed as they raped and murdered a woman in Israel on October 7, witness says

Israeli police are documenting cases of rape and sexual violence during the Hamas attack on Israel. One man recounts what he saw.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Philip_B]

Of course, antisemites would prematurely jump to the conclusion "war crime" before the evidence is in.

Palestinians are also semitic.

 

[Bradskii]

No, it is only an accusation and the IDF, as it should, is investigating.

Of course, antisemites would prematurely jump to the conclusion "war crime" before the evidence is in.

It's not 'only an accusation.' The IDF has admitted the fact. And some of you guys crack me up. If it's pointed out that some of the Israeli actions are so lacking in care for innocent lives that they have actually shot their own people and it's 'anti Semetism'. But the unthinking knee jerk support of literally anything Israel does soaks these threads.

 

[Valletta]

It's not 'only an accusation.' The IDF has admitted the fact. And some of you guys crack me up. If it's pointed out that some of the Israeli actions are so lacking in care for innocent lives that they have actually shot their own people and it's 'anti Semetism'. But the unthinking knee jerk support of literally anything Israel does soaks these threads.

What's telling is the lengths people go to just to find three guys guilty of war crimes, implying they are representative of Israel. Over a thousand Israelis were butchered, women raped, babies killed, people tortured. Jewish students are being threatened and too many on the hard left see no problems with that. What kind of people dance in the streets over the killing of babies and elderly? And what should be done with them?

 

[Pommer]

What's telling is the lengths people go to just to find three guys guilty of war crimes, implying they are representative of Israel. Over a thousand Israelis were butchered, women raped, babies killed, people tortured. Jewish students are being threatened and too many on the hard left see no problems with that. What kind of people dance in the streets over the killing of babies and elderly? And what should be done with them?

Can we agree that in this present conflict/time there are no “good guys”?

 

[Bradskii]

What's telling is the lengths people go to just to find three guys guilty of war crimes, implying they are representative of Israel. Over a thousand Israelis were butchered, women raped, babies killed, people tortured. Jewish students are being threatened and too many on the hard left see no problems with that. What kind of people dance in the streets over the killing of babies and elderly? And what should be done with them?

Castigate them for it. But don't allow what some do to act as an excuse not to blame others for what they do. It's a schoolyard argument.

 

[o_mlly]

Palestinians are also semitic.

What is your point? Or are you just trying to be clever?

The IDF has admitted the fact.

Exactly what fact is that? John accidentally killed Joe does not immediately conclude a murder occurred. Get a grip, man.

 

[Bradskii]

Exactly what fact is that? John accidentally killed Joe does not immediately conclude a murder occurred. Get a grip, man.

Nobody said they were murdered. But the IDF itself said that the fact of the matter had been that they had killed hostages outside the rules of engagement.

And this matter has not been discussed to show how 'murderous' IDF soliers are. It's being used as an example of what some people here will say to excuse anything. So they weren't shot 'accidently'. They weren't caught in some crossfire. Three men who appeared to be no threat at all and were even carrying a white flag were shot intentionally.

And do you know what the next few posts will say? Of course you do. 'It's Hamas' fault for starting this'. As if that excuses criminal negligence. As if that somehow balances the books. 'Look what they did. That excuses what we do.'

Is that a new Christian concept? I haven't seen it formally anounced. Maybe it's being discussed in parts of the forum where I can't post...

 

[Bradskii]

What's telling is the lengths people go to just to find three guys guilty of war crimes, implying they are representative of Israel. Over a thousand Israelis were butchered, women raped, babies killed, people tortured. Jewish students are being threatened and too many on the hard left see no problems with that. What kind of people dance in the streets over the killing of babies and elderly? And what should be done with them?

There ya go, @o_mlly, we didn't have to wait long, did we. A great example. Didn't even have to put any thought into it either. Just cut and paste from umpteen other previous posts saying exactly the same thing. Oh, and throw in a line about wanting to show that all Israelis are murdering war criminals. Got to crank the rhetoric up to make these points, eh?

 

[Philip_B]

What is your point? Or are you just trying to be clever?

It is not about being clever, it is about the language and how we use it.

The term Semitic refers to people from the Seed of Abraham. This includes Isaac and Ishmael, Keturah's children, and all their descendants. They are all semic people. When you talk about antisemitism, I suspect if you only mean anti-Jewish then you have not made your intent clear.

We we were speaking of European conflicts and racial abuse, the term antisemitic could be understood, as that was the group of people involved. In the case of the current conflict between Israel and Palestine, it is not a useful term unless you mean everyone on and off the region.

I have made the point before, but I doubt you, or anyone else, really cares.

 

[rjs330]

Again, just making excuses. Which you would never do if the situation was reversed. You won't admit that they were wrong when even the IDF admits it.

From here:

IDF mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in Gaza. This is what we know so far.

Three hostages, presumed to have escaped or been abandoned by Hamas, had a white flag with them when they were killed Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

'Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi said Saturday the killing of three Israeli hostages was “a difficult and painful event.”

“I think the three hostages did everything possible so that we would understand — they moved around shirtless so that we wouldn’t suspect them of carrying explosives and they held a white cloth, but the tension overcame all of the above,” Halevi continued, adding “the shooting at the hostages was against the rules of engagement” and that it is “forbidden to shoot at someone who raises a white flag and seeks to surrender.”

This is precisely the types of things that happen during war. That does not absolve the individuals involved. The IDF's rules of engagement forbade this action. So it's not the IDF's fault in general. It's the fault of the I dividual soldiers who made the mistake. The soldiers violated the rules set forth by the army. And they should answer for it. Just like you can't blame the entire US Army for that again s if I dividual soldiers in WWII OR Afghanistan.

The UDF isn't telling their soldiers to shoot anything that moves.

It's not different than anything else that happens in life in general. It's wrong, it's bad and there should be justice for this or for any war crime committed by individuals. It's not supported by the government, ruling authorities, the people if Israel or the army.

 

[rjs330]

Can we agree that in this present conflict/time there are no “good guys”?

No we cannot. There are bad guys, Hamas and good guys the Israelis. Have some Israeli soldiers screwed up during the prosecution of the war? Probably. That doesn't make the Israelis a bad guy.

Are all the Palestinians bad guys? No, but you are certainly no good guy if you are dancing in the streets, celebrating the murder of Jews, driving their bodies around in pick up trucks and smacking the dead with boards. You are no good guy if you supported the murders.

 

[Philip_B]

No we cannot. There are bad guys, Hamas and good guys the Israelis. Have some Israeli soldiers screwed up during the prosecution of the war? Probably. That doesn't make the Israelis a bad guy.

Are all the Palestinians bad guys? No, but you are certainly no good guy if you are dancing in the streets, celebrating the murder of Jews, driving their bodies around in pick up trucks and smacking the dead with boards. You are no good guy if you supported the murders.

The binomial proposition presented here is simply not adequate to discuss the conflict at hand. Nobody in the conflict is either all good or all bad. If this is the basis of your analysis then you simply have an outcome-driven argument. That lacks any intellectual integrity and in my view is unworthy of this forum. This is about the ancient and significant need to belong, to have a homeland, and there are very good arguments on both side for both sides, and there is a long history stretching back no doubt before The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold ... The last 75 years have been increasingly tense on both sides, and there are bystanders who want to make this go on for their own purposes.

You may want to point me to Psalm 137, the great lament in captivity, yet the truth is the Palestinians may well resonate with this as well.

You can not begin the discussion on the basis that Israel is in the right and Hamas and the Palestinians are in the wrong.

The tragedy of the 40 or so million stateless people on the planet is another edge of this great drama. We human beings need a place, and we need to belong.

 

[o_mlly]

It is not about being clever, it is about the language and how we use it.

I suggest you look up the definition of "antisemitism" for starters.

anti-Semitism​

noun​

an·ti-Sem·i·tism

ˌan-tē-ˈse-mə-ˌti-zəm,​

ˌan-ˌtī-

​

variants or less commonly antisemitism​

: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group​

 

[o_mlly]

Three men who appeared to be no threat at all and were even carrying a white flag were shot intentionally.

How is it that you are self-appointed as jury and judge of these soldiers? The investigation is still underway, but the "judge" has already ruled, "Guilty!" How do you know that the IDF soldiers intentionally shot Israeli hostages? You don't. Why not wait for the investigation to be completed? Well, I guess it's because it is the rational thing to do.

 

[o_mlly]

The binomial proposition presented here is simply not adequate to discuss the conflict at hand. Nobody in the conflict is either all good or all bad. If this is the basis of your analysis then you simply have an outcome-driven argument. That lacks any intellectual integrity and in my view is unworthy of this forum.

Do you not accept intellectually the fact that the Hamas' attack on Oct. 7, 2023 was an unjust aggression? Are all unjust aggressions evil acts?

 

[Valletta]

Hezbollah Fires Rocket Barrage Into Israel as Blinken Mounts New De-Escalation Push

Militants in Lebanon launched one of the largest rocket barrages into Israel in recent months as the U.S.’s top diplomat arrived in the region to defuse an escalating crisis resulting from the war in Gaza.

www.wsj.com

Israeli strike kills an elite Hezbollah commander in the latest escalation linked to the war in Gaza

An Israeli airstrike killed an elite Hezbollah commander Monday in southern Lebanon, the latest in an escalating exchange of strikes across the border that have raised fears of another Mideast war even as the fighting in Gaza exacts a mounting toll on civilians. The strike on an SUV killed a...

www.yahoo.com