Veggies may not be that good for you

[trophy33]

The population studied had primary hyperoxaluria, which is a rare genetic condition.

Yes, but oxalobacters supplementation did not help with it. So, which study proved that they can help with higher amount of oxalates? Also, with what amount, exactly? And does it differ based upon different plants, time of day, age, gender etc?

All these questions are important to study.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, but oxalobacters supplementation did not help with it. So, which study proved that they can help with higher amount of oxalates? Also, with what amount, exactly? And does it differ based upon different plants, time of day, age, gender etc?

All these questions are important to study.

Your referencing a study of an extraordinary disease condition that isn't at all typical. It would be like studying how to improve immune function by looking at AIDS patients.

For the vast majority of people, it's not at all harmful to eat several servings of kale or greens every day. The oxalates are either eaten by microbes in the intestines, or will be eliminated in the urine.

 

[trophy33]

Your referencing a study of an extraordinary disease condition that isn't at all typical. It would be like studying how to improve immune function by looking at AIDS patients.

For the vast majority of people, it's not at all harmful to eat several servings of kale or greens every day. The oxalates are either eaten by microbes in the intestines, or will be eliminated in the urine.

You can learn a lot about immunity looking at AIDS patients. Extraordinary disease is not something that invalidates the conclusion that some supposed mechanism does not work as expected.

Again, what study do you use to base your assumption that oxalates are safe to eat, on?

Another study:

Oxalate induces mitochondrial dysfunction and disrupts redox homeostasis in a human monocyte derived cell line - PMC

Monocytes/macrophages are thought to be recruited to the renal interstitium during calcium oxalate (CaOx) kidney stone disease for crystal clearance. Mitochondria play an important role in monocyte function during the immune response. We recently ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[FireDragon76]

You can learn a lot about immunity looking at AIDS patients. Extraordinary disease is not something that invalidates the conclusion that some supposed mechanism does not work as expected.

Again, what study do you use to base your assumption that oxalates are safe to eat, on?

Considering foods high in oxalate like potato, peanuts, cocoa, or soybeans have been eaten for centuries, and many of these foods are considered otherwise healthy and safe to eat, the burden of proof is on those who would insist they are not safe.

Most people should not be seeking to reduce their consumption of oxalate in foods:

Should I be Avoiding Oxalates?

www.chhs.colostate.edu

 

[trophy33]

Considering foods high in oxalate like potato, peanuts, cocoa, or soybeans have been eaten for centuries, and many of these foods are considered otherwise healthy and safe to eat, the burden of proof is on those who would insist they are not safe.

Oxalate induces mitochondrial dysfunction and disrupts redox homeostasis in a human monocyte derived cell line - PMC

Monocytes/macrophages are thought to be recruited to the renal interstitium during calcium oxalate (CaOx) kidney stone disease for crystal clearance. Mitochondria play an important role in monocyte function during the immune response. We recently ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Iinterference with nutrient absorption, irregular heartbeats, kidney stones, gum inflammation, bone pain, joint aches, problems with skin, autistic spectrum disorders, anemia, osteoporosis and many other problems:

Oxalate Sensitivity: How It is Harming Your Health?

hoffmancentre.com

"Recent evidence also points to the involvement of oxalates in stroke, atherosclerosis, and in endothelial cell dysfunction"

The Green Smoothie Health Fad: This Road to Health Hell is Paved with Toxic Oxalate Crystals — Great Plains Laboratory

The Green Smoothie Health Fad: This Road to Health Hell is Paved with Toxic Oxalate Crystals Recent internet news indicated the conviction of an oncologist who attempted to kill her boyfriend who was involved with another woman. The weapon of

mosaicdx.com

Autism:

A potential pathogenic role of oxalate in autism - PubMed

Hyperoxalemia and hyperoxaluria may be involved in the pathogenesis of ASD in children. Whether this is a result of impaired renal excretion or an extensive intestinal absorption, or both, or whether Ox may cross the blood brain barrier and disturb CNS function in the autistic children remains...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[RDKirk]

Considering foods high in oxalate like potato, peanuts, cocoa, or soybeans have been eaten for centuries, and many of these foods are considered otherwise healthy and safe to eat, the burden of proof is on those who would insist they are not safe.

Most people should not be seeking to reduce their consumption of oxalate in foods:

Should I be Avoiding Oxalates?

www.chhs.colostate.edu

What we don't know, though, is how modern production techniques and the chemical environment have altered those foods and our internal responses to them.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

One can always find outliers who promote eccentric views.

I'll with Best Diets Overall 2023

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall?src=usn_fb&fbclid=IwAR3zILyjA8_dB3itM0W0XhSH664Vf2rLIUb27i3x459s3xiJgtH16i3KbS0

​

Especially Ornish for Heart Healthh

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/ornish-diet

All mostly high plant based low red meat.

 

[timewerx]

Iinterference with nutrient absorption, irregular heartbeats, kidney stones, gum inflammation, bone pain, joint aches, problems with skin, autistic spectrum disorders, anemia, osteoporosis and many other problems:

I get none of those symptoms. In fact, I have the opposite of those problems.

Spinach is one of those veggies I love if they get cheap enough. Beans and carrots is always part of my meals together with pork meat so I'm omnivorous for the most part.

At my age of 42 I have the cardiovascular fitness level of a world class endurance athlete around half my age. I did have the Holy Spirit as my workout coach.

The world is looking for the magic diet to fix wrong eating habits and lack of exercise. Why not just exercise, avoid eating between meals, and avoid indulging in food? Practice restraint.

Deny yourself as the Bible teaches like deny yourself in food. In context, have discipline in eating. Don't always satisfy the hunger/pleasure cravings concerning food.

If you do this, the body will adapt to the scarcity and learn how to metabolize more foods, including foods that are relatively toxic like plants.

 

[timewerx]

Yes, but oxalobacters supplementation did not help with it. So, which study proved that they can help with higher amount of oxalates? Also, with what amount, exactly? And does it differ based upon different plants, time of day, age, gender etc?

All these questions are important to study.

If you eat and take meds like a typical American, you won't be able to foster an effective gut colony.

Meds can have a dramatic effect on gut colony. The rate of digestion will also have dramatic effect on the quality of digestion and gut colony.

If you eat all the time during the day and generally indulge on food, you'll be passing digestion products too quickly. There won't be enough time for gut bacteria to ferment and metabolize your digestion products, and it won't foster a favorable environment for gut colony to thrive.

In a perfectly working digestive system with optimal eating habit, you'll be passing very little solid waste. Most of your waste will be passed as urine and gas (CO2 and other gases like methane)

You body will get more energy per unit weight of food you eat. If people are cars, you'll have huge MPG numbers by having a very efficient "engine".

I don't trust "magic" or "fad" diets. They're just trying to fix a broken lifestyle and there's a lot of misinformation and biased data/research flying around to discredit each other. Why not just fix the broken lifestyle directly?

 

[RDKirk]

If you eat all the time during the day and generally indulge on food, you'll be passing digestion products too quickly. There won't be enough time for gut bacteria to ferment and metabolize your digestion products, and it won't foster a favorable environment for gut colony to thrive.

In a perfectly working digestive system with optimal eating habit, you'll be passing very little solid waste. Most of your waste will be passed as urine and gas (CO2 and other gases like methane)

It doesn't work that way for herbivores. It does work that way for carnivores. Cattle produce a lot more dung than lions produce scat.

 

[trophy33]

If you eat and take meds like a typical American, you won't be able to foster an effective gut colony.

Meds can have a dramatic effect on gut colony. The rate of digestion will also have dramatic effect on the quality of digestion and gut colony.

If you eat all the time during the day and generally indulge on food, you'll be passing digestion products too quickly. There won't be enough time for gut bacteria to ferment and metabolize your digestion products, and it won't foster a favorable environment for gut colony to thrive.

In a perfectly working digestive system with optimal eating habit, you'll be passing very little solid waste. Most of your waste will be passed as urine and gas (CO2 and other gases like methane)

You body will get more energy per unit weight of food you eat. If people are cars, you'll have huge MPG numbers by having a very efficient "engine".

I don't trust "magic" or "fad" diets. They're just trying to fix a broken lifestyle and there's a lot of misinformation and biased data/research flying around to discredit each other. Why not just fix the broken lifestyle directly?

I do not see a connection to the post you quoted...

 

[trophy33]

I get none of those symptoms... I love... At my age of 42...

You are just one subject on the internet from the other side of the planet. Let us talk about objective facts, studies, evidence. Post articles to support what you want to claim so there is something factual to talk about.

 

[trophy33]

Especially Ornish for Heart Healthh

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/ornish-diet

All mostly high plant based low red meat.

Ornish diet is heart-healthy because it is against smoking and for whole food instead of highly processed food. Not because its "low red meat". There is no clinical association between red meat and heart disease, not to say causality.

Because the ornish diet is plant-based, its actually quite problematic, mainly in an older age, when you want to do a lot of resistance training and get/keep as much muscle as possible. You can search for "longevity Peter Attia" on youtube to find out more details.

You want to have a long health span, not just life span. If you are unable to move, have aching joints, arthritis, dementia and are so fragile that if you fall you cannot get up, it does not matter too much that your heart is healthy. Health and fitness is more complex than just one thing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ornish diet is heart-healthy because it is against smoking and for whole food instead of highly processed food.

The science of statistics can account for the effects of different rates of smoking, including in Ornish's studies. The different health outcomes aren't due to smoking rates being different.

Because the ornish diet is plant-based, its actually quite problematic, mainly in an older age, when you want to do a lot of resistance training and get/keep as much muscle as possible. You can search for "longevity Peter Attia" on youtube to find out more details.

It's not that hard to get enough protein on a well-planned plant-based diet. Even an athletic male, doing the most demanding sports or physical activities (and not using anabolic steroids), only needs around 85-100 grams of protein per day, at most, to maximize muscle growth. The only times there's solid evidence that men might benefit from more protein involve bodybuilders using anabolic steroids (which stimulates super-physiologic levels of muscle protein synthesis, among other things).

Very old people getting enough protein is potentially a challenge for any diet, including meat-eaters. For one thing, older people often have less appetite, especially those on medications (like popular diabetes drugs). For another thing, they sometimes have poorer dentition or teeth to chew food- not exactly conducive to eating foods like steak, anyways. Comparing a disease condition that affects some older people, like sarcopenia, with the normal physiological needs of the typical person who is otherwise healthy, isn't the best way to understand the merits of a plant-based diet. Sarcopenia is more complicated than not eating enough protein, often times elderly people with sarcopenia have other health problems driving physical inactivity. Very rarely is it simply due to not eating enough protein.

 

[FireDragon76]

I get none of those symptoms. In fact, I have the opposite of those problems.

Spinach is one of those veggies I love if they get cheap enough. Beans and carrots is always part of my meals together with pork meat so I'm omnivorous for the most part.

At my age of 42 I have the cardiovascular fitness level of a world class endurance athlete around half my age. I did have the Holy Spirit as my workout coach.

The world is looking for the magic diet to fix wrong eating habits and lack of exercise. Why not just exercise, avoid eating between meals, and avoid indulging in food? Practice restraint.

Deny yourself as the Bible teaches like deny yourself in food. In context, have discipline in eating. Don't always satisfy the hunger/pleasure cravings concerning food.

If you do this, the body will adapt to the scarcity and learn how to metabolize more foods, including foods that are relatively toxic like plants.

I would have thought that there was alot of fruit available in the Philipines, since it's so warm most of the year?

Recently I've started eating more canteloupe and melons. We always have a few berries in the fridge, too.

 

[trophy33]

The science of statistics can account for the effects of different rates of smoking, including in Ornish's studies. The different health outcomes aren't due to smoking rates being different.

Yes, they can account for that. And when they do, there is no health outcome. Post a link to a study that accounts for smoking, exercise, junk food, alcohol, sugar and other similar factors and still found clinically significant benefit of Ornish (or any plant based) diet.

It's not that hard to get enough protein on a well-planned plant-based diet.

It is very hard. Not just protein, but other nutrients too (vitamins, collagen...). Plus you get a lot of toxins like oxalates, pesticides and heavy metals as a bonus.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is very hard.

Plenty of vegan bodybuilders and athletes disagree.

Not just protein, but other nutrients too (vitamins, collagen...). Plus you get a lot of toxins like oxalates, pesticides and heavy metals as a bonus.

Collagen is made from amino acids like proline and glycine, two non-essential amino acids, neither of which is particularly hard to get from plants (particularly beans, peas, and other legumes). Glycine and proline can also be synthesized in the body from essential amino acids. Synthesis of collagen in the human body also requires vitamin C, something almost exclusive found in plants, especially in modern western diets (only certain kinds of raw meats, such as certain organ meats, would contain appreciable quantities of vitamin C).

The only vitamin that could realistically be deficient in an unfortified vegan or plant-based diet is B-12, or cobalamin. It's rarely found in plants, though some, such as chlorella or mankai (which is an aquatic plant, also known as duckweed) do contain B-12 in a bioavailable form. Industrially raised livestock are given B-12 injections or fortified feed.

 

[timewerx]

It doesn't work that way for herbivores. It does work that way for carnivores. Cattle produce a lot more dung than lions produce scat.

Because cattle eats all day and in large quantities. I don't. I only eat twice a day and I don't eat between meals.

I also limit my calorie intake. I pass solid waste only once every couple of days and still in relatively small quantities and not constipated at all, just right.

I avoid hunger cravings between meals by doing short but relatively intense physical workouts between meals. This is made possible by the "hepatic response" of the liver to exercise by raising blood sugar levels which in turn affects the hormones that control hunger cravings and also insulin.

But on top of this, I can eat anything. Meat, veggies, including sweets. I do limit my calorie intake so I cannot indulge, but it's good not to limit yourself to what you eat. It can come handy in far less ideal situations.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Ornish diet is heart-healthy because it is against smoking and for whole food instead of highly processed food. Not because its "low red meat". There is no clinical association between red meat and heart disease, not to say causality.

Because the ornish diet is plant-based, its actually quite problematic, mainly in an older age, when you want to do a lot of resistance training and get/keep as much muscle as possible. You can search for "longevity Peter Attia" on youtube to find out more details.

You want to have a long health span, not just life span. If you are unable to move, have aching joints, arthritis, dementia and are so fragile that if you fall you cannot get up, it does not matter too much that your heart is healthy. Health and fitness is more complex than just one thing.

Increased heart disease risk from red meat may stem from gut microbe response to digestion​

Increased heart disease risk from red meat may stem from gut microbe response to digestion

Embargoed until 4 a.m. CT/5 a.m. ET Monday, August 1, 2022 Research Highlights: A new study found that chemicals produced in the digestive tract by gut microbes after eating red meat (such as beef, pork, bison, venison) explained a significant portion ...

newsroom.heart.org

Eating red meat daily triples heart disease-related chemical

People had high blood levels of TMAO, a chemical that’s been linked to heart disease, when they ate a diet rich in red meat.

www.nih.gov

Is Red Meat Bad for Your Heart … or Not?

New reports suggest that eating red meat may not be bad for your heart after all. But take that news with a grain of salt. This Q&A explains.

health.clevelandclinic.org

I will go with the recommendations of American heart Association, American Cancer Association, American Diabetic Association, Mayo Clinic, National Institute of Health, Cleveland Clinic, and other mainstream authorities.

 

[RDKirk]

Increased heart disease risk from red meat may stem from gut microbe response to digestion​

Increased heart disease risk from red meat may stem from gut microbe response to digestion

Embargoed until 4 a.m. CT/5 a.m. ET Monday, August 1, 2022 Research Highlights: A new study found that chemicals produced in the digestive tract by gut microbes after eating red meat (such as beef, pork, bison, venison) explained a significant portion ...

newsroom.heart.org

Eating red meat daily triples heart disease-related chemical

People had high blood levels of TMAO, a chemical that’s been linked to heart disease, when they ate a diet rich in red meat.

www.nih.gov

Is Red Meat Bad for Your Heart … or Not?

New reports suggest that eating red meat may not be bad for your heart after all. But take that news with a grain of salt. This Q&A explains.

health.clevelandclinic.org

I will go with the recommendations of American heart Association, American Cancer Association, American Diabetic Association, Mayo Clinic, National Institute of Health, Cleveland Clinic, and other mainstream authorities.

Here is the problem every one of those studies has:

They are epidemiological studies in which the non-omnivore subjects (vegans, vegetarians) inherently monitor their food sources carefully...which is why they're vegans and vegetarians. That sample will be primarily "clean-eaters."

Their omnivore samples, however, in every study are people eating the "standard American diet" of every deleterious item on the store shelves. They are not comparing clean-eating omnivores with clean-eating vegetarians so that meat is the only variant.

When they compare Americans with other nationalities, they make a similar error in not comparing people with otherwise similar lifestyles so that meat is the only variant.