Veggies may not be that good for you

[RDKirk]

Plenty of vegan bodybuilders and athletes disagree.

No, they don't. They have to eat a lot of food to get sufficient protein just as omnivores do.

 

[Lilith2006]

This is GREAT news, if its true. I hate eating most veggies.

 

[timewerx]

You are just one subject on the internet from the other side of the planet. Let us talk about objective facts, studies, evidence. Post articles to support what you want to claim so there is something factual to talk about.

None have made studies in me yet why plant toxins have no effect in me.

But if someone did in the future, you'll be the first I tell, unless I forget.

But I won't be surprised if they come up with the same conclusion as I have now - not indulging myself in food and lots of exercise.

OR the fact, we're not all the same. Medicine to one, poison to another.

Do you always wait for factual studies and their published results? Then how is it possible for you to believe 100% of the Bible?

 

[RDKirk]

It's not that hard to get enough protein on a well-planned plant-based diet. Even an athletic male, doing the most demanding sports or physical activities (and not using anabolic steroids), only needs around 85-100 grams of protein per day, at most, to maximize muscle growth. The only times there's solid evidence that men might benefit from more protein involve bodybuilders using anabolic steroids (which stimulates super-physiologic levels of muscle protein synthesis, among other things).

Anyone who states a figure for "grams of protein per day" without a qualification for lean body mass is missing the boat.

Very old people getting enough protein is potentially a challenge for any diet, including meat-eaters. For one thing, older people often have less appetite, especially those on medications (like popular diabetes drugs). For another thing, they sometimes have poorer dentition or teeth to chew food- not exactly conducive to eating foods like steak, anyways. Comparing a disease condition that affects some older people, like sarcopenia, with the normal physiological needs of the typical person who is otherwise healthy, isn't the best way to understand the merits of a plant-based diet. Sarcopenia is more complicated than not eating enough protein, often times elderly people with sarcopenia have other health problems driving physical inactivity. Very rarely is it simply due to not eating enough protein.

I'm 70 years old. I don't have an appetite problem because I'm disciplined enough to do what I need to do. If I need to eat, I eat. I'm not on any substantial drugs, my blood pressure is normal, my blood sugar is normal. I don't have any joint issues, aches, or pains as long as I'm careful with warm-ups and form. My teeth are fine. I'm missing one front incisor from a bicycle accident 30 years ago. I've had recent calcium, CT and other scans that have shown my arteries to be clean as a whistle. I exercise vigorously and daily, both resistance training and cardio training--being retired, I'm able to insert exercise periods throughout my day. I do take a good amount of vitamin and mineral supplements.

The study I've done, including government research, indicates that people need at least 0.8 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day, with athletes and older people needing from 1.0 grams to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day.

I have a background of a lot of cardio activity (running early on, shifting to road cycling 200-250 miles a week), but very little resistance training. I've been doing a lot more resistance training over the last few years (bought a nice set of equipment just before the Covid lockdown). When I first went back to the barbershop after the Covid lockdown, the regulars exclaimed, "OG! You've been lifting!"

One thing that has become absolutely clear to me in these years is that my body treats a high level of protein as though they were anabolic steroids. If I keep my protein above 120 grams per day, I grow larger and stronger. It's quite slow growth, but it's there. When I let the protein level fall, I stall.

 

[timewerx]

I would have thought that there was alot of fruit available in the Philipines, since it's so warm most of the year?

Recently I've started eating more canteloupe and melons. We always have a few berries in the fridge, too.

We do but can't afford to buy fruits right now. We have to maximize calorie to the $ for now which means more rice and pork meals for now!

We all terribly miss having mangoes and bananas in our meals but we'll live without them. Thank God, I did not deteriorate from not eating any fruits for a long time now but I do love them a lot.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I have heart disease. I had major blockage in my right coronary artery that required medical intervention. I was lucky and now try to do all that I can to stay healthy. Diet and exercise are key aspects of the management of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and many other conditions.

The American College of Cardiology, American Heart Association, American Cancer Association, and The American Medical Association, among others, have recommended limiting saturated fat and trans fat, red meat and replacing them with non-saturated fats from nuts and vegetables. That means, minimizing intake of processed meats such as bacon, sausage, lunch meats, and hot dogs. Instead, choose plant-based options of fruit and vegetable and meals that are low in fat, sodium, and added sugars.

If you want to go with some contrarian doctor you found on the internet that's your choice.

​

 

[FireDragon76]

Anyone who states a figure for "grams of protein per day" without a qualification for lean body mass is missing the boat.

I'm 70 years old. I don't have an appetite problem because I'm disciplined enough to do what I need to do. If I need to eat, I eat. I'm not on any substantial drugs, my blood pressure is normal, my blood sugar is normal. I don't have any joint issues, aches, or pains as long as I'm careful with warm-ups and form. My teeth are fine. I'm missing one front incisor from a bicycle accident 30 years ago. I exercise vigorously and daily, both resistance training and cardio training--being retired, I'm able to insert exercise periods throughout my day. I do take a good amount of vitamin and mineral supplements.

The study I've done, including government research, indicates that people need at least 0.8 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day, with athletes and older people needing from 1.0 grams to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day.

Some studies of young, healthy subjects showed that .61 grams to .75 grams/lb is adequate to build muscle combined with resistance training:

The myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal protein intake for bodybuilders

Protein. It’s every bodybuilder’s favorite macronutrient and for good reason. Protein is extremely essential, super satiating and amazingly anabolic. Protein is awesome… but you’re consuming too much of it. Like most myths, the belief that you should take in 1g/lb of body weight has become so...

mennohenselmans.com

I have a background of a lot of cardio activity, but very little resistance training. I've been doing a lot more resistance training over the last few years (bought a nice set of equipment just before the Covid lockdown). When I first went back to the barbershop after the Covid lockdown, the regulars exclaimed, "OG! You've been lifting!"

One thing that has become absolutely clear to me in these years is that my body treats a high level of protein as though they were anabolic steroids. If I keep my protein above 120 grams per day, I grow larger and stronger. It's quite slow growth, but it's there. When I let the protein level fall, I stall.

My dad checked in on an old acquaintance from time to time during the pandemic. He had developed sarcopenia, as well as osteoporosis. He was very frail and not much older than you. In his case, he just sat at home and drank, and if he ate anything, it was mostly just processed food. He also had Celiac disease and it's why he was discharged from the Navy, ultimately. During the pandemic, he wouldn't even leave the house.

Sometimes I wonder how much of the loss in lean muscle mass after age 30 isn't due to the relatively sedentary nature of American life. The average Americans walks only around 3,000 steps every day, which is considered almost sedentary, and it's been that way for decades. Morgan Spurlock in Supersize Me, had trouble walking that little just going to the nearest McDonald's from his apartment in New York.

 

[RDKirk]

Some studies of young, healthy subjects showed that .61 grams to .75 grams/lb is adequate to build muscle combined with resistance training:

And other studies show otherwise. Even the FDA advises 0.8 grams for people who aren't doing training.

My dad checked in on an old acquaintance from time to time during the pandemic. He had developed sarcopenia, as well as osteoporosis. He was very frail and not much older than you. In his case, he just sat at home and drank, and if he ate anything, it was mostly just processed food. He also had Celiac disease and it's why he was discharged from the Navy, ultimately. During the pandemic, he wouldn't even leave the house.

Sometimes I wonder how much of the loss in lean muscle mass after age 30 isn't due to the relatively sedentary nature of American life. The average Americans walks only around 3,000 steps every day, which is considered almost sedentary, and it's been that way for decades. Morgan Spurlock in Supersize Me, had trouble walking that little just going to the nearest McDonald's from his apartment in New York.

Certainly, most of the muscle loss from sarcopenia is from inactivity. But the fact that elderly people display less anabolic effect from protein than younger people is also proven.

 

[timewerx]

The study I've done, including government research, indicates that people need at least 0.8 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day, with athletes and older people needing from 1.0 grams to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day.

I have a background of a lot of cardio activity (running early on, shifting to road cycling 200-250 miles a week), but very little resistance training. I've been doing a lot more resistance training over the last few years (bought a nice set of equipment just before the Covid lockdown). When I first went back to the barbershop after the Covid lockdown, the regulars exclaimed, "OG! You've been lifting!"

I train like a professional endurance runner more or less and ride my bicycle 40 to 70 miles on Saturdays in the mountains.

I have strength-resistance, strength-speed, running, and sprint exercises in my weekly schedule. Most of it targeting the legs, hips, and core/back muscles, all the muscles needed for mobility and to a lesser extent, the arms.

Currently maintaining a weight of 117 to 120 lbs and a lean body fat of 6.7% (Navy method). I'm actually at the lower end of the athlete category.

Anyway, my protein intake is significantly less than 0.8 grams/lb and my calorie intake is also less than my estimated daily calories burned with training.

Yet, I seem to be gaining weight very slightly, muscles getting slightly bigger, but more importantly, I'm still getting stronger and lifting increasingly greater weights and recovering faster from training. My speed in cycling, both in climbing and flat course have significantly improved since and still improving.

I've also read plenty of gov't and academic scientific journals/research/studies on nutrition and learned a lot from them and they agree with you.

However, I'm unable to fulfill daily protein requirements, not by choice. But surprisingly, I'm perfectly OK and keep on getting stronger.

I've also read in some of these studies that the human body is also extremely adaptable and can adapt to scarcity. So getting less may not be so bad. Yet exercising is fundamental and should always be part of any lifestyle or any diet.

 

[trophy33]

Plenty of vegan bodybuilders and athletes disagree.

Define "plenty" and quote them that its easy. Also, find those who do not use highly processed unnatural industrial vegan products like pea proteins.

You make many claims but you do not support them with anything. You also always ignore my asking for you posting a study.

Collagen is made from amino acids like proline and glycine, two non-essential amino acids, neither of which is particularly hard to get from plants (particularly beans, peas, and other legumes). Glycine and proline can also be synthesized in the body from essential amino acids. Synthesis of collagen in the human body also requires vitamin C, something almost exclusive found in plants, especially in modern western diets (only certain kinds of raw meats, such as certain organ meats, would contain appreciable quantities of vitamin C).

Then why do long term vegans commonly have so quickly aging skin and problems with joints?

The only vitamin that could realistically be deficient in an unfortified vegan or plant-based diet is B-12, or cobalamin.

Realistically, vegans are deficient in many things, because in veganism its very hard to get everything one needs.

Theoretically, mostly B12 will be lacking, but practically - many things. It requires basically alchemy to mix all the plants from around the world to get all nutrients on the one hand and not to be poisoned by plant toxins on the other hand.

 

[trophy33]

None have made studies in me yet why plant toxins have no effect in me.

But if someone did in the future, you'll be the first I tell, unless I forget.

But I won't be surprised if they come up with the same conclusion as I have now - not indulging myself in food and lots of exercise.

OR the fact, we're not all the same. Medicine to one, poison to another.

Do you always wait for factual studies and their published results? Then how is it possible for you to believe 100% of the Bible?

My point was not a study made on you, my point was that you are just one anectodal case. Your personal experiments cannot be rejected or accepted, because you do not support them with anything.

 

[trophy33]

I will go with the recommendations of American heart Association, American Cancer Association, American Diabetic Association, Mayo Clinic, National Institute of Health, Cleveland Clinic, and other mainstream authorities.

If the infamous American "XXX-Associations", sponsored by junk food companies and/or linked to Seventh Day Adventism are your thing, go for it. You may read about their sponsors and founders for example on wikipedia. Many clinics (and even WHO) simply accepted their recommendations, without any strong evidence.

However, scientifically, red meat does not pose any risk for CVD or cancer. What is problematic is its way of consumption in the West - in the form of junk food and with a lot of sugar (for example sodas), with alcohol, with smoking etc.

There are carcinogenic chemicals in almost anything, also in plants. What matters is their interaction with other things in your diet and their amount. And surely how healthy your metabolism is.

The real heart-healthy diet is not "plants vs meat", but eating minimally processed whole foods, avoiding sugars, alcohol and smoking, not overeating, low stress, good sleep and regular exercise.

Health effects associated with consumption of unprocessed red meat: a Burden of Proof study - Nature Medicine

Using the burden of proof analytical tool, a meta-analysis found weak or no evidence of associations between unprocessed red meat consumption and increased risk of six cardiometabolic disease and cancer outcomes.

www.nature.com

Guide to red meat — Diet Doctor

Is red meat healthy or harmful? Should you enjoy it freely on your low-carb, keto diet, or limit your consumption? Depending on which expert you ask, those questions may receive a very different answer. However, has a truly strong link between red meat and heart disease, cancer, or other...

www.dietdoctor.com

The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary. Most recent meta-analyses of randomized trials and observational studies found no beneficial effects of reducing SFA intake on cardiovascular disease (CVD) and total mortality, and instead found protective effects against stroke.
Journal of the American College of Cardiology

 

[trophy33]

I have heart disease. I had major blockage in my right coronary artery that required medical intervention. I was lucky and now try to do all that I can to stay healthy. Diet and exercise are key aspects of the management of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and many other conditions.

The American College of Cardiology, American Heart Association, American Cancer Association, and The American Medical Association, among others, have recommended limiting saturated fat and trans fat, red meat and replacing them with non-saturated fats from nuts and vegetables. That means, minimizing intake of processed meats such as bacon, sausage, lunch meats, and hot dogs. Instead, choose plant-based options of fruit and vegetable and meals that are low in fat, sodium, and added sugars.

If you want to go with some contrarian doctor you found on the internet that's your choice.

​

Certainly, if you have some serious condition, you cannot change your life based on some internet discussion, you need to take it more seriously and do a lot of research by yourself. I am healthy, so my goal is to simply find an ideal long term diet.

However, for the sake of this thread/discussion, there is no evidence for saturated fats or meat to be harmful compared to plants. Sources in the reply above.

Also, did you know that heart uses fats and in problems prefers ketones? It uses surprisingly low amount of glucose. Therefore, it seems that high fat diet, not plant-based diet, is ideal for heart.

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.115.017355

Also, according to newly released historical documents, the sugar industry paid Harvard scientists in the 1960s to play down the link between sugar and heart disease and promote saturated fat as the culprit instead:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat

 

[FireDragon76]

Certainly, if you have some serious condition, you cannot change your life based on some internet discussion, you need to take it more seriously and do a lot of research by yourself. I am healthy, so my goal is to simply find an ideal long term diet.

However, for the sake of this thread/discussion, there is no evidence for saturated fats or meat to be harmful compared to plants. Sources in the reply above.

Also, did you know that heart uses fats and in problems prefers ketones? It uses surprisingly low amount of glucose. Therefore, it seems that high fat diet, not plant-based diet, is ideal for heart.

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.115.017355

Also, according to newly released historical documents, the sugar industry paid Harvard scientists in the 1960s to play down the link between sugar and heart disease and promote saturated fat as the culprit instead:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat

Sugar consumption has actually been decreasing in the United States in the past two decades. Despite this, obesity continued to rise.

 

[FireDragon76]

Define "plenty" and quote them that its easy. Also, find those who do not use highly processed unnatural industrial vegan products like pea proteins.

Most omnivorous bodybuilders use protein supplements as well, like whey or casein powder. They are especially useful because they increase protein in the diet without a corresponding increase in fat or carbohydrates.

Mic the Vegan, a vegan Youtube influencer with a master degree in public health, took up lifting weights to put on some lean mass, and the only thing he said he did was just eat more than usual. He eats a whole foods diet from what I've seen. He got good results in about six months of training a few times a week. So it can be done, even on a diet of relatively unprocessed food.

Focusing on what is "natural" seems to be misguided. Human beings are highly adaptable and we have always relied upon technology and industry to survive. What is "natural" is going to depend on the material circumstances we find ourselves in. I'm not arguing that a vegan diet is necessarily natural, merely that it is healthy and sustainable.

Then why do long term vegans commonly have so quickly aging skin and problems with joints?

I haven't seen evidence to substantiate the notion that vegans have inordinate problems with aging skin or bad joints.

In my own experience, my health improved when I gave up eating meat in favor of a plant-based diet around 2019. Fibromyalgia, gout, kidney stones, asthma, etc., all improved or went away. For the first time in my life, I also have nearly ideal cholesterol levels. And I have an easier time now actually working out and gaining muscle mass, despite eating somewhat less protein. I've also had blood work done and I'm not deficient in any vitamins or minerals.

 

[trophy33]

Most omnivorous bodybuilders use protein supplements as well, like whey or casein powder.

What is your point then? Its hard to get a enough of protein on a vegan diet. You argue with taking protein supplements, which is a different topic.

In my own experience, my health improved when I gave up eating meat in favor of a plant-based diet around 2019. Fibromyalgia, gout, kidney stones, asthma, etc., all improved or went away. For the first time in my life, I also had healthy cholesterol levels. And I have an easier time now actually working out and gaining muscle, despite eating somewhat less protein.

I can provide examples of dozens (hundreds?) of people whose health significantly improved when they stopped eating plants, for example here:

https://www.youtube.com/@Homesteadhow/streams

We do not know what else you were eating or doing, you have not been controlled. People frequently forget that they changed many other things, like stopping eating junk food.

 

[trophy33]

Focusing on what is "natural" seems to be misguided. Human beings are highly adaptable and we have always relied upon technology and industry to survive. What is "natural" is going to depend on the material circumstances we find ourselves in. I'm not arguing that a vegan diet is necessarily natural, merely that it is healthy and sustainable.

Our body is designed to a specific diet after millions of years of evolution. Our digestive system has some specifics etc.

Its difficult to claim that the diet we ate for hundreds of thousands of years is unhealthy and a diet we can eat for few decades because of globalization is better. You would need a really strong evidence, not just weak associations.

 

[trophy33]

Sugar consumption has actually been decreasing in the United States in the past two decades . Despite this, obesity continued to rise.

Your claims lack sources. My post was not about obesity, though.

Regarding obesity, the main culprit seems to be the combination of plant oils and fructose:

Death by Vegetable Oil: What the Studies Say

In a world without vegetable oil, we may be twenty pounds lighter, have half the amount of heart disease and cancer, live longer, think clearer, feel better, and be happier and less depressed.

www.jeffnobbs.com

 

[FireDragon76]

Your claims lack sources. My post was not about obesity, though.

Consumption of added sugars is decreasing in the United States1 - PMC

Background: The consumption of added sugars (caloric sweeteners) has been linked to obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. Little is known about recent consumption trends in the United States or how intakes compare with current guidelines. Objective: ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[trophy33]

Consumption of added sugars is decreasing in the United States1 - PMC

Background: The consumption of added sugars (caloric sweeteners) has been linked to obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. Little is known about recent consumption trends in the United States or how intakes compare with current guidelines. Objective: ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is based on questionnaires. People do not know what they eat, its a known problem with such studies.

However, I agree that its not just sugar, but the combination with plant oils and other junk, that produces metabolic disease and then obesity.