why ECT became the dominant view in the west

[Fervent]

What is the concept of "the eschaton" derived from?

It's drawn from everything from Revelation, to the Olivet discourse, to Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians in the NT and throughout the prophets of the OT warning about the great and terrible day of the Lord. Throughout the Bible there is the promise of a final state of the world in which all of God's purposes have been accomplished.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I know exactly what it is and it's something that can't simply be directly read. It all has to be deciphered.
Either you or whoever put together the NASB lexicon is wrong. It seems far more likely that out of the two, you're the one who's in error.

I have shown you from the BDAG lexicon, which OBTW listed 50+ historical sources the 4 authors consulted in arriving at the correct definition, that the single source you quoted is incorrect. Plus somewhere above is a study I did of every vs, in the NT which contains "aionios." In those vss. Jesus, Paul, Peter and John define/describe "aionios" as eternal.
A list of those vss, should you feel inclined to review them..” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51, 10:28.
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,
ETA: You have not demonstrated that you have the necessary scholarly background to determine if a lexical entry is incorrect.

 

[FireDragon76]

The theme doesn't change depending on tradition, though its true it has been used to emphasize the need for charity. The pericope focuses on how the final judgment will take place, and its not a parable at all. It is figurative language, but its not a parable. So while it may be used within Catholicism and Orthodoxy to stress the importance of loving works, the focus of the passage itself is the final judgment. Part of that is the promise of eternal life to those who perform such actions, but the parallel of eternal damnation for those who fail to is equally present.

I don't believe Jesus necessarily lays out a systematic theology of the last things. I think that's taking the words of Jesus beyond their cultural context. He's using the religious imagery of the time to talk about the kinds of works that his disciples must do, his own "corrective" on a popular motif at the time, a last judgement.

Karl Bart seems to have interpreted Revelation 10:6 as casting doubt on what is sometimes called "subjective immortality" among theologians and philosophers. He was skeptical of the idea of living forever in a heavenly paradise, suggesting it was more akind to "paganism". In this way he was perhaps congruent with some of Bishop John A.T. Robinson's musings on "eternal life" in the Johanine corpus, as something mystical rather than literal.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't believe Jesus necessarily lays out a systematic theology of the last things. I think that's taking the words of Jesus beyond their cultural context. He's using the religious imagery of the time to talk about the kinds of works that his disciples must do, his own "corrective" on a popular motif at the time, a last judgement.
Karl Bart seems to have interpreted Revelation 10:6 as casting doubt on what is sometimes called "subjective immortality" among theologians and philosophers. He was skeptical of the idea of living forever in a heavenly paradise, suggesting it was more akind to "paganism". In this way he was perhaps congruent with some of Bishop John A.T. Robinson's musings on "eternal life" in the Johanine corpus, as something mystical rather than literal.

In my post #142, above I listed 26 vss. from the N.T. 10 vss. Where Jesus defines/describes "aionios zoe", translated as "eternal life" as meaning "shall not perish" 3 times. In the second part of the list other NT writers, in 18 vss. also define/describe "aionos zoe" as "eternal life." Nothing imagery about it.
Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51, 10:28.
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,

 

[FireDragon76]

In my post #142, above I listed 26 vss. from the N.T. 10 vss. Where Jesus defines/describes "aionios zoe", translated as "eternal life" as meaning "shall not perish" 3 times. In the second part of the list other NT writers, in 18 vss. also define/describe "aionos zoe" as "eternal life." Nothing imagery about it.
Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 3:15, 3:16, 5:24, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51, 10:28.
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,

What does this all mean in the absence of time? Our usual experience of life, at least in this world, involves a linear progression of time.

 

[Der Alte]

What does this all mean in the absence of time? Our usual experience of life, at least in this world, involves a linear progression of time.

What exactly is your objection? Do you not understand that Jesus said 3 times that HIs followers who have "aoionios zoe"/"eternal life." shall not perish. Other descriptions/definitions in 7 other vss. What does that have to do with time?

 

[FireDragon76]

What exactly is your objection? Do you not understand that Jesus said 3 times that HIs followers who have "aoionios zoe"/"eternal life." shall not perish. Other descriptions/definitions in 7 other vss. What does that have to do with time?

I'm not disputing Jesus words, but the evidence from the Bible doesn't suggest "eternal" means an endless period of time. Karl Barth didn't seem to think so, as he points out, one of the last things to be abolished is time (Rev 10:6). If Heaven is not an endless period of time, then neither is Hell.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not disputing Jesus words, but the evidence from the Bible doesn't suggest "eternal" means an endless period of time. Karl Barth didn't seem to think so, as he points out, one of the last things to be abolished is time (Rev 10:6). If Heaven is not an endless period of time, then neither is Hell.

I've read the scholars too. Please review the 20+ vss. I listed where Jesus, John, Peter, Paul define the word "aionios" as "eternal." Who are you going to believe Jesus or some scholar? The evidence from the Bible most certainly does suggest "eternal" means an endless period of time.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've read the scholars too. Please review the 20+ vss. I listed where Jesus, John, Peter, Paul define the word "aionios" as "eternal." Who are you going to believe Jesus or some scholar? The evidence from the Bible most certainly does suggest "eternal" means an endless period of time.

I simply don't see how "eternal" must necessitate the assumption of an endless duration of time, and I've presented evidence to the contrary, from the Bible itself.

BTW, Karl Barth is a major figure in modern Protestant theology, having influence well beyond its boundaries into even Catholic thought, and drew on the best biblical scholarship of his time period. Why shouldn't I at least take his opinion seriously, especially when it is so coherently presented?

 

[Der Alte]

I simply don't see how "eternal" must necessitate the assumption of an endless duration of time, and I've presented evidence to the contrary, from the Bible itself.
BTW, Karl Barth is a major figure in modern Protestant theology, having influence well beyond its boundaries into even Catholic thought, and drew on the best biblical scholarship of his time period. Why shouldn't I at least take his opinion seriously, especially when it is so coherently presented?

Did you review the list of 20+ vss. I posted? What did Jesus say more than once? Since Barth is trying to contradict Jesus, I will ignore him and take Jesus. If you wish to disagree with what I posted do so by using the vss. I posted, not what some long dead "scholar" said. Why should you take at least take Barth's opinion serious because it apparently supports what you already believe.

 

[FireDragon76]

Did you review the list of 20+ vss. I posted? What did Jesus say more than once? Since Barth is trying to contradict Jesus, I will ignore him and take Jesus. If you wish to disagree with what I posted do so by using the vss. I posted, not what some long dead "scholar" said. Why should you take at least take Barth's opinion serious because it apparently supports what you already believe.

What did Jesus mean by eternal, though? You haven't demonstrated that what he said is incompatible with Barth's interpretation.

 

[Der Alte]

What did Jesus mean by eternal, though? You haven't demonstrated that what he said is incompatible with Barth's interpretation.

What does "shall not perish but have eternal life" mean to you? That was only 3 vss. I listed a total of 28 vss. which define/describe "aionios" as "eternal" and is so translated in most English versions and in the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

 

[FireDragon76]

What does "shall not perish but have eternal life" mean to you? That was only 3 vss. I listed a total of 28 vss. which define/describe "aionios" as "eternal" and is so translated in most English versions and in the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

I interpret eternal life as having mystical significance, as true, authentic life. The word in Greek for "life" that is used is zoe, which means far more than biological life. It is the kind of thing that Aristotle meant when he said "the unexamined life is not worth living". That sounds paradoxical at first ,until you realize A) Aristotle didn't believe in popular notions of an afterlife 2) Aristotle thought there was a way of life in which humans could find fulfillment, even as finite creatures.

 

[Der Alte]

I interpret eternal life as having mystical significance, as true, authentic life. The word in Greek for "life" that is used is zoe, which means far more than biological life. It is the kind of thing that Aristotle meant when he said "the unexamined life is not worth living". That sounds paradoxical at first ,until you realize A) Aristotle didn't believe in popular notions of an afterlife 2) Aristotle thought there was a way of life in which humans could find fulfillment, even as finite creatures.

I have read somewhere that "aionios zoe" refers as much to the quality of life as it does to the length of life. I haven't yet found a credible, verifiable source.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have read somewhere that "aionios zoe" refers as much to the quality of life as it does to the length of life. I haven't yet found a credible, verifiable source.

Yes, that's more or less how I think of it, too. Quality, not quantity.

The more I live, the less death scares me, anyways . I have had several brushes with death in my life. I suppose what gives me existential dread is the sheer cruelty and stupidity I see in humanity, and it all feels so needless.

 

[Fervent]

I don't believe Jesus necessarily lays out a systematic theology of the last things. I think that's taking the words of Jesus beyond their cultural context. He's using the religious imagery of the time to talk about the kinds of works that his disciples must do, his own "corrective" on a popular motif at the time, a last judgement.

Karl Bart seems to have interpreted Revelation 10:6 as casting doubt on what is sometimes called "subjective immortality" among theologians and philosophers. He was skeptical of the idea of living forever in a heavenly paradise, suggesting it was more akind to "paganism". In this way he was perhaps congruent with some of Bishop John A.T. Robinson's musings on "eternal life" in the Johanine corpus, as something mystical rather than literal.

I agree he wasn't laying out a systematic theology, I don't think that's the intent of any of the Bible. But that doesn't mean we can't take the eschatological underpinnings of Matthew 25 seriously and at face value.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, that's more or less how I think of it, too. Quality, not quantity.
The more I live, the less death scares me, anyways . I have had several brushes with death in my life. I suppose what gives me existential dread is the sheer cruelty and stupidity I see in humanity, and it all feels so needless.

I too have had several brushes with death. I flew helicopters in Viet Nam 2 tours. 1st tour '68 My helicopter was hit by enemy gunfire 11 times of that I was shot down 5 times, injured once. My baby picture up there on the left was taken when FDR was president and I remember his death. That is not ancient history to me.