Beings from beyond... Does it have to shake our theology?

[Sorn]

What Christian theology, specifically?

As i said, theological implications not specific texts, but since you asked here is the argument:
If there were intelligent life comparable to us on other planets, then :
1) if they sinned they have no way to be saved as Jesus will not die again and he did not die for them. It would be like someone saying to us that Gods Son went to live on another planet as some alien and lived a perfect life there and if you believe that he did that then you can share in his salvation, but the story of his life and death be set in alien worlds and cultures etc with not one shred of proof. Yet you'd still be expected to live a moral life because of it and even die because of it.

No religion does that and one should not expect any alien life to understand, believe or accept what they are told about some far of planet called Earth.

In short this position states that any aliens that sin don't have a way to get right with God again AND therefore God would not have created them if he knew He would not be able to save them if they sinned.

2) Further, if the assumption is that there are aliens but they have never sinned, then they would not experience death as God would not let them die, but rather they would already have entered eternity, ie be at least equal to angels and hence not need to dwell in this material universe.

Lastly, the bible says that when Jesus 1000 year reign is over, some time after that the heavens and earth will be rolled up and replaced with new heavens and earth. This is saying that this universe exists as long as Gods plan for man is in operation, once the fullness of salvation has come to mankind, then this universe is replaced with the eternal heavenly universe and creation.

It is broadly due to this line of reasoning that i say that as a Christian, my theology leads me to conclude that there is no other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe, other than possibly plant and animal life

A slightly longer version can be found here:

Are we the only inhabited planet in God's Universe?

A reasonable expectation, but it tells us nothing in reality. One might assume that they live in the heavenly Jerusalem, waiting to meet us all, but I do not think they will be Star Wars candidates. :) Yes, the heavenly battle says nothing about any other beings other than the angels fighting...

www.christianforums.com

 

[trophy33]

As i said, theological implications not specific texts, but since you asked here is the argument:
If there were intelligent life comparable to us on other planets, then :
1) if they sinned they have no way to be saved as Jesus will not die again and he did not die for them. It would be like someone saying to us that Gods Son went to live on another planet as some alien and lived a perfect life there and if you believe that he did that then you can share in his salvation, but the story of his life and death be set in alien worlds and cultures etc with not one shred of proof. Yet you'd still be expected to live a moral life because of it and even die because of it.

No religion does that and one should not expect any alien life to understand, believe or accept what they are told about some far of planet called Earth.

In short this position states that any aliens that sin don't have a way to get right with God again AND therefore God would not have created them if he knew He would not be able to save them if they sinned.

2) Further, if the assumption is that there are aliens but they have never sinned, then they would not experience death as God would not let them die, but rather they would already have entered eternity, ie be at least equal to angels and hence not need to dwell in this material universe.

Lastly, the bible says that when Jesus 1000 year reign is over, some time after that the heavens and earth will be rolled up and replaced with new heavens and earth. This is saying that this universe exists as long as Gods plan for man is in operation, once the fullness of salvation has come to mankind, then this universe is replaced with the eternal heavenly universe and creation.

It is broadly due to this line of reasoning that i say that as a Christian, my theology leads me to conclude that there is no other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe, other than possibly plant and animal life

A slightly longer version can be found here:

Are we the only inhabited planet in God's Universe?

A reasonable expectation, but it tells us nothing in reality. One might assume that they live in the heavenly Jerusalem, waiting to meet us all, but I do not think they will be Star Wars candidates. :) Yes, the heavenly battle says nothing about any other beings other than the angels fighting...

www.christianforums.com

These are just speculations, not theology. Christian theology is in Christian creeds and there is nothing against any other rational physical beings.

 

[Sorn]

These are just speculations, not theology. Christian theology is in Christian creeds and there is nothing against any other rational physical beings.

As i said, i presented Christian theology in my post and then the inferences I drew from that understanding of theology.
Am i speculating, well yes because i can't prove any of it but nevertheless that is what my understanding of Christian theology leads me to conclude, ie in all likelihood for the reasons i've listed i don;t think there are aliens zooming around in spacecraft out there.

Let me present another viewpoint, I am going to take off my Christian hat and put on a secular hat only, so now I am just a normal run of the mill atheist or agnostic. Under this hat I have NO reason to NOT believe that somewhere in our vast cosmos there are aliens zooming around in their ships, whether they visit us or not. Heck, life will have evolved many times on many planets in the 13 odd billion years the universe has existed.

However, once i take off the secular hat and put on my Christian hat and look at the world through that lens then I can no longer say I think there are aliens flying about, in fact I am doubtful there is life anywhere else in THIS universe but may concede to plant & animal life (nature park for angels on annual vacation perhaps?) but definitely NO other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe for the reasons I presented in my post.

Put another way, my Christian beliefs - inform, influence, provide input into - my position on whether there be aliens.

 

[trophy33]

As i said, i presented Christian theology in my post and then the inferences I drew from that understanding of theology.
Am i speculating, well yes because i can't prove any of it but nevertheless that what my understanding of Christian theology leads me to conclude, ie in all likelihood for the reasons i've listed i don;t think there are aliens zooming around in spacecraft out there.

Let me present another viewpoint, I am going to take off my Christian hat and put on a secular hat only, so now I am just a normal run of the mill atheist or agnostic. Under this hat I have NO reason to NOT believe that somewhere in out vast cosmos there are aliens zooming around in their ships, whether they visit us or not. Heck, life will have evolved many times on many planets in the 13 odd billion years the universe has existed.

However, once i take off the secular hat and put on my Christian hat and look at the world through that lens then I can no longer say I think there are aliens flying about, in fact I am doubtful there is life anywhere else in THIS universe but may concede to plant & animal life (nature park for angels on annual vacation perhaps?) but definitely NO other comparable intelligent carbon based mortal life anywhere else in this universe for the reasons I presented in my post.

Put another way, my Christian beliefs - inform, influence, provide input into - my position on whether there be aliens.

There is a difference between your views and Christian theology. Your reasoning can be used against evolution, against globe, against heliocentrism etc.

History should warn us that we should not try to interpret Bible too literally or to stretch it too far. Instead, let us hold to the elementary basics (creeds) and the rest is open to discoveries.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

In any case precursors to crystalline compounds customarily grouped as organic have been found in space for as long as there has been space exploration - nearly 100 years. Also, dithering about whether to call something a largish meterorite or a microscopic asteroid, is nothing new either. The same stuff in space is said to be both dust and ice. Complete non "sensations" can get blown up by not avoiding the essentialist fallacy as to nomenclature. Against this backdrop, the ostensible organisational ramifications are queer. Why not publish the paper, photos, tables of analysis. (I know, none of us can access the journals any more.) In my young day (a very long time ago) children wanted to be scientists because science was sharp and straightforward. Is sloppiness in communicating being normalised in children's minds these days? Are oaths just an eccentric American mannerism?

 

[Sorn]

There is a difference between your views and Christian theology. Your reasoning can be used against evolution, against globe, against heliocentrism etc.

History should warn us that we should not try to interpret Bible too literally or to stretch it too far. Instead, let us hold to the elementary basics (creeds) and the rest is open to discoveries.

Against globe, no, not at all.
Against heliocentrism, no, not at all
Against evolution, potentially yes, at least to the extent that it says we didn't just happen. We were either 1) specifically and spontaneously created or 2) God intervened and directed evolution, or a branch of it, to produce us but no where else did either of these 2 things happen.

Now if we get visited by alien teenagers tearing up our skies in their hotted up ufo's whilst on a joyride to impress their girlfriendoids tomorrow, with hard evidence of that visit, then yes, i would have to re-evaluate my position but hasn't happened yet and we've been around a while now

 

[Jipsah]

Christian theology, by its implications, actually excludes the existence of *intelligent alien beings, where alien means they dwell on another planet or other place in the material universe, so NOT spiritual realm critters.

Nah, not a bit of it.

 

[Sorn]

Nah, not a bit of it.

Well i hope all the aliens are happy when their home planets are destroyed at the end of the 1000 year millennial kingdom

 

[trophy33]

Well i hope all the aliens are happy when their home planets are destroyed at the end of the 1000 year millennial kingdom

You are using a very specific view (dispensationalism/futurism) and a literal reading of Peter's imagery together. Which is not a core Christian belief, just one view of eschatology of many others.

Also, Bible is written by humans to humans, so its anthropocentric in its language. "Heavens" do not need to mean our modern concept of the physical universe, Peter had no such way of thinking, its a modern eisegesis.

 

[Sorn]

You are using a very specific view (dispensationalism/futurism) and a literal reading of Peter's imagery together. Which is not a core Christian belief, just one view of eschatology of many others.

Also, Bible is written by humans to humans, so its anthropocentric in its language. "Heavens" do not need to mean our modern concept of the physical universe, Peter had no such way of thinking, its a modern eisegesis.

Yes, i am using a dispensation / futurism viewpoint and it is from that viewpoint that, through deductive reasoning, that I arrive at my conclusions about extraterrestrial life. There is nothing wrong with that.

A persons religious belief system (any belief system actually) informs that persons world view & by contemplating that world view or belief system they can make some deductions or educated guesses about aspects of their world that their belief system may not specifically mention.

The unwavering belief that the secular world has that evolution is true feeds into the narrative of many modern societies and their consequent actions, laws & cultural values etc.

Whatever your specific eschatological position is will also inform your view on extraterrestrials.

While Peter may not have had an understanding of galaxies etc he did have an idea of a cosmos and when he said heavens i'm sure he also meant what he could see when he looked up at the night sky as well.

Basically, God will recreate reality, probably with some fundamental physical laws differing in some way from out current universe.

 

[Sorn]

You are using a very specific view (dispensationalism/futurism) and a literal reading of Peter's imagery together. Which is not a core Christian belief, just one view of eschatology of many others.

Also, Bible is written by humans to humans, so its anthropocentric in its language. "Heavens" do not need to mean our modern concept of the physical universe, Peter had no such way of thinking, its a modern eisegesis.

An interesting video in my recommended list today. Arrives at same conclusion via a different route, just some food for thought i guess especially the views on heavens.

 

[fhansen]

Just a thought about the current disclosures being made by folks from the military about phenomena in the skies thought to be the activity of some advanced technology beyond normal human capabilities.

You can read about it on this thread... Whistleblower Testifies Under Oath to Congress that the Government has recovered "non-human biologics" from UFOs

Should these claims stack up and we are faced with there being life beyond the earth - will your theology cope with that ?

My thought is that such activity if real, is demonic in origin for these reasons.

First we know that angels can assume human form - otherwise we couldn't entertain them unawares as Scripture says.

It follows then that fallen angels are equally capable of appearing in physical forms and may present with very high intelligence and forms that are non humanoid.

Second the narrative in Revelation speaks about the deception to come involving signs and wonders on earth and in the sky.

Thirdly the temptation in the garden was all about knowledge and being presented with superior knowledge from such beings will again be Satans trump card to draw humanity away from Godliness.

Hey - these are my musings and it seems very soon this matter will be in our face to deal with if what we are hearing is to be believed.

Personally I think God is plenty big enough to take care of any other rational beings He may've created, to save them through the work of His Son. Anyway, I don't know why there might not be others out there. It's not much different from ancient earthlings finding out that other -alien- cultures exist outside of their own tribes/countries/nations, etc.

 

[Sorn]

Personally I think God is plenty big enough to take care of any other rational beings He may've created, to save them through the work of His Son. Anyway, I don't know why there might not be others out there. It's not much different from ancient earthlings finding out that other -alien- cultures exist outside of their own tribes/countries/nations, etc.

Well it couldn't be by Jesus dying again, He only died once.
How would the aliens hear about Jesus, at least ancient earthlings could travel to see other tribes etc.

 

[fhansen]

Well it couldn't be by Jesus dying again, He only died once.
How would the aliens hear about Jesus, at least ancient earthlings could travel to see other tribes etc.

I'm not sure why we'd need to lock God into operating in only one world. Many people here on earth have died without hearing about Jesus for that matter. But I'm sure He can and does work it all out according to His wisdom and will.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well it couldn't be by Jesus dying again, He only died once.
How would the aliens hear about Jesus, at least ancient earthlings could travel to see other tribes etc.

Maybe Romans 1 applies they see the attributes of God in creation, respond or not, and are judged accordingly.

 

[Sorn]

Maybe Romans 1 applies they see the attributes of God in creation, respond or not, and are judged accordingly.

But then they end up like the ancient Greeks or Romans, have manly Gods, not knowing who the true God is.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But then they end up like the ancient Greeks or Romans, have manly Gods, not knowing who the true God is.

Not so - in our country 60% of the Maori converted to Christianity because they worshiped a God above all Gods before the Gospel arrived.

 

[Sorn]

Not so - in our country 60% of the Maori converted to Christianity because they worshiped a God above all Gods before the Gospel arrived.

Sure, some cultures will be monotheistic but that doesn't mean they worship the right god, ie the muslims as an example.
Also, the Maori's you mention would not have converted to Christianity until AFTER the Gospel arrived on their shores.
So some aliens, if they existed, might be monotheistic & others multi-theistic, but none would worship the true God without the true Gospel.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Me neither. Apparently they're particular about the company they keep.

Sure. They travel light years in the most advanced space craft to a planet barely visible in a galaxy of little significance. Then they find the dumbest drugged up redneck they can find. They send him back, wide eyed, in order to convince the world that aliens exist. They could, of course, land in front of the UN and prove that they are real. Obviously they prefer to feed the conspiracy theories that so fascinate so many. Perhaps they tune into conversations, as if it were comedy hour. If they've traveled that far, they likely could do with a laugh.

 

[Sorn]

Sure. They travel light years in the most advanced space craft to a planet barely visible in a galaxy of little significance. Then they find the dumbest drugged up redneck they can find. They send him back, wide eyed, in order to convince the world that aliens exist. They could, of course, land in front of the UN and prove that they are real. Obviously they prefer to feed the conspiracy theories that so fascinate so many. Perhaps they tune into conversations, as if it were comedy hour. If they've traveled that far, they likely could do with a laugh.

Not to mention that if one of their ships did crash here, they would probably be able to easily mount an operation to retrieve it and destroy all evidence. Heck, their new UFO's probably come with a free planetside towing service as part of the package deal!.