Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

You don't think spending time with God in worship is part of keeping the Sabbath day holy?

Well, it sounds good
Myself, I try to spend all time with God.

Do the scriptures teach that Leviticus 23:3 ended at the cross?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 23:3 - New American Standard Bible

‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

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[Gary K]

Well, it sounds good
Myself, I try to spend all time with God.

Do the scriptures teach that Leviticus 23:3 ended at the cross?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 23:3 - New American Standard Bible

‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

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No.

I spend every day with god as that is the only way to have a strong relationship with Him. However Sabbath is a special day set aside for communication with Him and having nothing to do with every day activities,

 

[Leaf473]

No.

I spend every day with god as that is the only way to have a strong relationship with Him. However Sabbath is a special day set aside for communication with Him and having nothing to do with every day activities,

Are you saying No, the scriptures do not teach that Leviticus 23:3 ended at the cross?

I'm asking because one of the big issues in the Sabbath and the law section is which laws ended at the cross and which continue.

 

[Gary K]

Are you saying No, the scriptures do not teach that Leviticus 23:3 ended at the cross?

I'm asking because one of the big issues in the Sabbath and the law section is which laws ended at the cross and which continue.

Yes, Once again I consider this a silly question to ask a Sabbath keeper.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, Once again I consider this a silly question to ask a Sabbath keeper.

I'm asking because I thought you had said earlier that out of the Old testament, only the 10 commandments were still commandments for today.

Did I misunderstand you earlier?

 

[Gary K]

I'm asking because I thought you had said earlier that out of the Old testament, only the 10 commandments were still commandments for today.

Did I misunderstand you earlier?

No. Leviticus 23: 3 is a paraphrase of the 4th commandment.

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

 

[Leaf473]

No. Leviticus 23: 3 is a paraphrase of the 4th commandment.

It doesn't look like a paraphrase to me, the fourth commandment doesn't talk about a holy assembly, dies it?

Anyways, am I understanding right in your view, the ten commandments are the only ones that carry over into the New Covenant?

 

[Gary K]

It doesn't look like a paraphrase to me, the fourth commandment doesn't talk about a holy assembly, dies it?

Anyways, am I understanding right in your view, the ten commandments are the only ones that carry over into the New Covenant?

So, in your mind keeping the Sabbath day holy has nothing to do with worshiping God? Why do you go to church?

 

[Leaf473]

So, in your mind keeping the Sabbath day holy has nothing to do with worshiping God? Why do you go to church?

God is worshiped at all times.

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 3:17 - New American Standard Bible

Whatever you do in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

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I go to church to build up the body of Christ, and to be built up by them

 

[Gary K]

God is worshiped at all times.

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 3:17 - New American Standard Bible

Whatever you do in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

www.biblegateway.com

I go to church to build up the body of Christ, and to be built up by them

So you would consider those things somehow out of line on Sabbath? That God never intended these to be done on Sabbath?

 

[Leaf473]

So you would consider those things somehow out of line on Sabbath?

No, not at all

That God never intended these to be done on Sabbath?

I think God intended physical Israel to do them on the Sabbath.

I think he intends for us to do them all the time under the New Covenant.

Israel had God inside the holy of holies, we have the Holy Spirit spirit inside of us.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:34 - New Living Translation

And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”

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[Gary K]

No, not at all


I think God intended physical Israel to do them on the Sabbath.

I think he intends for us to do them all the time under the New Covenant.

Israel had God inside the holy of holies, we have the Holy Spirit spirit inside of us.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:34 - New Living Translation

And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”

www.biblegateway.com

Well,as you already know I can only partially agree with you,

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Doesn't look to me that Paul thinks we Gentiles are to believe/behave any different than Jews who become Christians as we are all the same building.

Act_10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Peter's statement cuts both ways. God sees all of humanity the same way and makes no difference between us.

 

[Leaf473]

Well,as you already know I can only partially agree with you,



Doesn't look to me that Paul thinks we Gentiles are to believe/behave any different than Jews who become Christians as we are all the same building.

That's correct. We behave differently than physical Israelites who were under the old covenant.

And we agree that Jews and gentiles who become Christians are all in the same building and body

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:13 - New Living Translation

Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

Peter's statement cuts both ways. God sees all of humanity the same way and makes no difference between us.

Absolutely!

And we also know that under the New Covenant, God's laws are written on our heart. In the old covenant, they were written on stone or maybe animal hide.

 

[Gary K]

That's correct. We behave differently than physical Israelites who were under the old covenant.

And we agree that Jews and gentiles who become Christians are all in the same building and body

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:13 - New Living Translation

Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

Absolutely!

And we also know that under the New Covenant, God's laws are written on our heart. In the old covenant, they were written on stone or maybe animal hide.

Sorry but that is an erroneous reading. Paul was a commandment keeper and so were the Jews at the head of the Christian church in Jerusalem which sent the following message to the Gentiles.

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Now if you claim the law mentioned is the 10 which includes the 4th and the Gentiles were to ignore it, then why do you think the other 9 are still binding on you? And why do you claim God sees us differently than He saw the leaders of the early Christian church which were all commandment keeping Jews? Also. do you abstain from eating blood?

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry but that is an erroneous reading.

Which reading are you referring to?

Paul was a commandment keeper...

Definitely! Paul lived as a Jew in order to win the Jews.

And there's also this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 2:14 - New American Standard Bible

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

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...and so were the Jews at the head of the Christian church in Jerusalem which sent the following message to the Gentiles.

Old habits die hard. Do you try to celebrate Pentecost in Jerusalem?

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 20:16 - New American Standard Bible

For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to lose time in Asia; for he was hurrying, if it might be possible for him to be in Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

www.biblegateway.com

Now if you claim the law mentioned is the 10 which includes the 4th and the Gentiles were to ignore it, then why do you think the other 9 are still binding on you?

I don't.

A common response at this point is to say that I must think it's okay to murder and steal. No, there are other reasons not to do that.

It is against the law in North Korea to insult the General.

I don't insult him.

It does not logically follow that I am under the rules of North Korea.

And why do you claim God sees us differently than He saw the leaders of the early Christian church which were all commandment keeping Jews?

I don't think God sees us differently. I think many Jewish people back then were keeping the law out of habit.

Even today, some Jewish people I know who accept Jesus as the Messiah continue to go to their synagogue on Friday evening. Nothing wrong with that

Under the New Covenant, we may continue to keep the instructions given to the Israelites in the wilderness. But we don't have to.

Also. do you abstain from eating blood?

No. I do cook the meat that I eat, so I don't know if that's still qualifies as blood or not

A strict reading of Acts 15 would mean no blood transfusions, as well imo.

 

[Gary K]

Which reading are you referring to?


Definitely! Paul lived as a Jew in order to win the Jews.

And there's also this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 2:14 - New American Standard Bible

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

www.biblegateway.com

Old habits die hard. Do you try to celebrate Pentecost in Jerusalem?

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 20:16 - New American Standard Bible

For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to lose time in Asia; for he was hurrying, if it might be possible for him to be in Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't.

A common response at this point is to say that I must think it's okay to murder and steal. No, there are other reasons not to do that.

It is against the law in North Korea to insult the General.

I don't insult him.

It does not logically follow that I am under the rules of North Korea.


I don't think God sees us differently. I think many Jewish people back then were keeping the law out of habit.

Even today, some Jewish people I know who accept Jesus as the Messiah continue to go to their synagogue on Friday evening. Nothing wrong with that

Under the New Covenant, we may continue to keep the instructions given to the Israelites in the wilderness. But we don't have to.


No. I do cook the meat that I eat, so I don't know if that's still qualifies as blood or not

A strict reading of Acts 15 would mean no blood transfusions, as well imo.

So, old habits die hard? That's your best explanation for Paul behaving exactly the opposite of what you think he taught? That's called hypocrisy and is a serious sin as it is a form of lying. And you want to follow a hypocrite? I stay as far as possible as I can away from imitating a hypocrite.

 

[Leaf473]

So, old habits die hard? That's your best explanation for Paul behaving exactly the opposite of what you think he taught? That's called hypocrisy and is a serious sin as it is a form of lying. And you want to follow a hypocrite? I stay as far as possible as I can away from imitating a hypocrite.

He didn't behave the opposite, it's okay for a person to follow the law if they wish.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 21:20 - New American Standard Bible

And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

www.biblegateway.com

The only reason for the leaders in Jerusalem to say this is if it isn't true in the gentile Christian world. The behaviors were different, the Covenant was the same.

Again, do you follow Paul's practice here

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 20:16 - New American Standard Bible

For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to lose time in Asia; for he was hurrying, if it might be possible for him to be in Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

He didn't behave the opposite, it's okay for a person to follow the law if they wish.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 21:20 - New American Standard Bible

And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

www.biblegateway.com

The only reason for the leaders in Jerusalem to say this is if it isn't true in the gentile Christian world. The behaviors were different, the Covenant was the same.

Again, do you follow Paul's practice here

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 20:16 - New American Standard Bible

For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to lose time in Asia; for he was hurrying, if it might be possible for him to be in Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

www.biblegateway.com

Sorry, but that just makes me laugh. Your words implied Paul taught exactly the opposite of how he lived. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple. There is no other explanation for it.

I should hurry to Jerusalem during my world travels? Paul didn't teach the Gentiles to do that and neither was that taught by the leaders of the Christian church at Jerusalem. If you remember correctly this was addressed by the letters sent out to the Gentile churches Paul and Barnabas were planting. So you're asking me to be a hypocrite?

Oh, and cooking meat does not make it kosher. It takes very specific actions to remove all the blood from meat, and from what I'm told it is very tasteless afterwards. So you don't even follow the instructions to the Gentiles. I don't have to worry about that anymore as I'm a vegetarian and have been most of my life. You most likely eat pork too. Even during the days of my rebellion against God I wouldn't do that.

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry, but that just makes me laugh. Your words implied Paul taught exactly the opposite of how he lived.

Then you misunderstand my words

That is hypocrisy, pure and simple. There is no other explanation for it.

I should hurry to Jerusalem during my world travels?

No, you shouldn't, that's what I was getting at

Paul didn't teach the Gentiles to do that and neither was that taught by the leaders of the Christian church at Jerusalem.

Exactly! So we see Paul taking actions that were not required of other believers.

Paul lived as a Jew when he was around other Jews. We may choose to do that, as well. It's not required.

If you remember correctly this was addressed by the letters sent out to the Gentile churches Paul and Barnabas were planting. So you're asking me to be a hypocrite?

No, I'm not asking you to be a hypocrite. It wasn't hypocritical for Paul to hurry to get to Jerusalem by Pentecost. It was something he could do, he wasn't required.

Oh, and cooking meat does not make it kosher.

Your question was about eating blood. If it's cooked, is it still blood? I don't think so, but it's not something what I worry about

It takes very specific actions to remove all the blood from meat, and from what I'm told it is very tasteless afterwards. So you don't even follow the instructions to the Gentiles.

That's correct. They were given at a specific time for specific reasons, i.e. new churches with hardcore observant Jews and recently idol worshiping Greeks in the same meeting.

I don't have to worry about that anymore as I'm a vegetarian and have been most of my life.

Great

You most likely eat pork too.

Sometimes, not very often. The key, I think, is that we don't have to ask.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:27 - New International Reader's Version

Suppose an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go. Then eat anything that is put in front of you. Don’t ask if it’s right or wrong.

www.biblegateway.com

Even during the days of my rebellion against God I wouldn't do that.

It isn't rebellion against God, it's in accordance with the scriptures in their entirety.

We have a different understanding of the scriptures. That's great! Then we have a good basis for discussion

 

[Gary K]

Then you misunderstand my words





No, you shouldn't, that's what I was getting at


Exactly! So we see Paul taking actions that were not required of other believers.

Paul lived as a Jew when he was around other Jews. We may choose to do that, as well. It's not required.


No, I'm not asking you to be a hypocrite. It wasn't hypocritical for Paul to hurry to get to Jerusalem by Pentecost. It was something he could do, he wasn't required.


Your question was about eating blood. If it's cooked, is it still blood? I don't think so, but it's not something what I worry about


That's correct. They were given at a specific time for specific reasons, i.e. new churches with hardcore observant Jews and recently idol worshiping Greeks in the same meeting.


Great


Sometimes, not very often. The key, I think, is that we don't have to ask.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:27 - New International Reader's Version

Suppose an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go. Then eat anything that is put in front of you. Don’t ask if it’s right or wrong.

www.biblegateway.com

It isn't rebellion against God, it's in accordance with the scriptures in their entirety.

We have a different understanding of the scriptures. That's great! Then we have a good basis for discussion

First, if keeping the law is legalism to you how is it no big deal to keep the law as legalism is attempting to obey God throughour own power. And why have you been telling me this for the entire time we have been discussing scripture? It makes no sense to me.

Second, why do you take 1 Corinthians 10: 27 so far out of context? The entire context is about eating food offered to idols.

1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

Paul goes on to the end of the chapter speaking of foods offered to idols