Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

[Guojing]

Why do you believe that God stopped at the formation of the canon?

Because signs gifts are for the nation of Israel.

So when Israel fell in the eyes of God, those gifts start to fade as well.

But God was gracious enough to give us the complete canon of scripture and instructed us there, thru Paul, that faith hope and charity abide.

This preaching by Randy White sums up what I believe about this topic here, if you are keen

 

[Gary K]

Because signs gifts are for the nation of Israel.

So when Israel fell in the eyes of God, those gifts start to fade as well.

But God was gracious enough to give us the complete canon of scripture and instructed us there, thru Paul, that faith hope and charity abide.

This preaching by Randy White sums up what I believe about this topic here, if you are keen

Sorry, but that's another example of dispensationalists reading their theology into scripture as scripture no where comes close to saying that.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, but that's another example of dispensationalists reading their theology into scripture as scripture no where comes close to saying that.

All of us are reading our theology into scripture, you still have not realized that? =)

 

[Studyman]

Sorry, but that's another example of dispensationalists reading their theology into scripture as scripture no where comes close to saying that.

I won’t partake of the video, but Jesus did say that He came to save the lost Jews. They were Lost, according to my understanding, because the Shepherds that were supposed to lead them to their Redeemer, led them astray instead. Some were able to overcome the deception like Zacharias, Simeon the wise men and the gentile woman whose daughter Jesus saved, but most were led astray. And God did deliver His Oracles directly to man so we can go to His Word apart from this world’s preachers for the first time in recorded history.

Did God not promise this very thing is His promise of a New Covenant?

I agree with Guojing on that part.

 

[Gary K]

I won’t partake of the video, but Jesus did say that He came to save the lost Jews. They were Lost, according to my understanding, because the Shepherds that were supposed to lead them to their Redeemer, led them astray instead. Some were able to overcome the deception like Zacharias, Simeon the wise men and the gentile woman whose daughter Jesus saved, but most were led astray. And God did deliver His Oracles directly to man so we can go to His Word apart from this world’s preachers for the first time in recorded history.

Did God not promise this very thing is His promise of a New Covenant?

I agree with Guojing on that part.

We are agreed on the new covenant promise.

 

[Guojing]

And God did deliver His Oracles directly to man so we can go to His Word apart from this world’s preachers for the first time in recorded history.

Did God not promise this very thing is His promise of a New Covenant?

I agree with Guojing on that part.

I suppose you are referring to the verse in Hebrews 8:11.

That is certainly not what I am saying.

The complete scripture being available now to the whole world is NOT equivalent to everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them.

 

[Gary K]

I suppose you are referring to the verse in Hebrews 8:11.

That is certainly not what I am saying.

The complete scripture being available now to the whole world is NOT equivalent to everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them.

Where does that come from? I've never heard of anyone ever making that claim before.

 

[Studyman]

I suppose you are referring to the verse in Hebrews 8:11.

That is certainly not what I am saying.

The complete scripture being available now to the whole world is NOT equivalent to everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them.

No, I was speaking to your comment that God is Gracious to us by giving us His Oracles Paul said were written for our, that is, those repentant individuals who live after the Christ ascended’s, admonition. Maybe I misunderstood your comment. If I did, I apologize.

Everyone needs someone to teach them, is this not shown us in Gods very creation?

Every human will have the chance at God’s salvation in His Time, in my understanding of Scriptures.

I’m ok with that.

 

[Guojing]

No, I was speaking to your comment that God is Gracious to us by giving us His Oracles Paul said were written for our, that is, those repentant individuals who live after the Christ ascended’s, admonition. Maybe I misunderstood your comment. If I did, I apologize.

What you said was

And God did deliver His Oracles directly to man so we can go to His Word apart from this world’s preachers for the first time in recorded history.

Did God not promise this very thing is His promise of a New Covenant?

I was not trying to connect my point about God gracious enough to give us the completed scripture, to anything about the New Covenant.

 

[Guojing]

Where does that come from? I've never heard of anyone ever making that claim before.

If you are asking about the claim "everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them,

that was what Hebrews 8:11 says literally.

 

[Gary K]

If you are asking about the claim "everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them,

that was what Hebrews 8:11 says literally.

Yeah? So? I don't understand your point.

 

[Guojing]

Yeah? So? I don't understand your point.

The complete scripture being available now to the whole world is NOT equivalent to everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them.

Is this point that hard to understand?

A dog is not equivalent to a cat. =)

 

[Studyman]

What you said was


I was not trying to connect my point about God gracious enough to give us the completed scripture, to anything about the New Covenant.

OH!! I see. Thanks for your patience in explaining your statement. I'm kinda slow it seems. My grandpa used to saw, "Along towards morning, even a blind sow picks up an acorn." LOL.

My apologies. I understand now.

When God said "After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD"

I saw this as a prophesy regarding a time when God's People would no longer have to depend on other men to teach them about God, as they did in the Law and Prophets, as they would all have direct access to the Oracles of God.

Which explains, in my view, why the Spirit of Christ would inspire it to be written;

2 Tim. 2: 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I saw this as the way God writes His LAW on the hearts of His People. And Jesus did say;

Matt. 6: 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And again;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And Jesus did warn His People;

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Certainly those "Before" after those days, would not have access to the Word of God written for the Admonition of the Body of Christ "After those days".

I assumed when you mentioned God's Mercy and Grace in providing His Holy Scriptures directly to His People, that you connected this to the Promise of God spoken by Jeremiah.

It seems you did not.

My apologies.

 

[Leaf473]

Because signs gifts are for the nation of Israel.

So when Israel fell in the eyes of God, those gifts start to fade as well.

But God was gracious enough to give us the complete canon of scripture and instructed us there, thru Paul, that faith hope and charity abide.

This preaching by Randy White sums up what I believe about this topic here, if you are keen

We might be using the word Canon differently. I'm using it to mean when the church decided which documents were scripture. Are you using the formation of the canon to mean the end of those documents were written? Maybe like around 95 ad or so?

 

[Gary K]

The complete scripture being available now to the whole world is NOT equivalent to everyone from Israel and Judah knowing the Lord, without anyone having to teach them.

Is this point that hard to understand?

A dog is not equivalent to a cat. =)

Yes. I can't follow dispensationalist reasoning. How is "the complete scripture now available" not equivalent to the fulfillment of the new covenant? The reasoning is off-the-wall.

 

[Guojing]

Yes. I can't follow dispensationalist reasoning. How is "the complete scripture now available" not equivalent to the fulfillment of the new covenant? The reasoning is off-the-wall.

The nation of Israel that you see now, they rejected Christ as the Messiah.

Thus, do you need anything more than common sense to understand that Hebrews 8:11 is not true today?

Is that reasoning simple enough for you?

 

[Guojing]

When God said "After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD"

I saw this as a prophesy regarding a time when God's People would no longer have to depend on other men to teach them about God, as they did in the Law and Prophets, as they would all have direct access to the Oracles of God.

I assumed when you mentioned God's Mercy and Grace in providing His Holy Scriptures directly to His People, that you connected this to the Promise of God spoken by Jeremiah.

It seems you did not.

My apologies.

God's people, my people, in scripture always refers to the nation of Israel.

And Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 tell you precisely who God will make a New Covenant with.

So Hebrews 8:11 could only mean the people stated in those 2 verses.

The nation of Israel that you see now, they rejected Christ as the Messiah.

 

[Guojing]

We might be using the word Canon differently. I'm using it to mean when the church decided which documents were scripture. Are you using the formation of the canon to mean the end of those documents were written? Maybe like around 95 ad or so?

I am not too particular about the exact date, but yes, its when Paul completed the scripture when he finished writing 2 Timothy.

 

[Leaf473]

I am not too particular about the exact date, but yes, its when Paul completed the scripture when he finished writing 2 Timothy.

I see. I was thinking more like about 385 AD, when the choosing of the books, at least for the New Testament, was completed.

 

[Guojing]

I see. I was thinking more like about 385 AD, when the choosing of the books, at least for the New Testament, was completed.

That meeting was just to confirm what the body of Christ already accepted as canon.

But the point, if you look at the context of 1 cor 13

Speak like a child
Think like a child
Reasoned like a child

All refers to the 3 gifts mentioned, so when scripture was completed, no need to be a child anymore